this is political, world politics intercept literature quite often> lord of the rings> rings of power are centrally controlled world currencies, the Pound, the Yen, etc.> the US dollar is the One Ring> was made in secret as a plot to control the whole world and rolled out during the American experiment> Sauron is the global military-industrial complex, manned from a central command post obscured by secret societies and NGOs> Orcs represent the world militaries> the UK are the Hobbits> Dragons represent Masonry, the old reptilian order, old keepers of the Ring and amassers of the world's treasures> Dwarves are Europeans, obsessed with raiding the Masons for their treasures> Elves are jews, keepers of the old magics that will be leaving when the aliens show up, creators of the Rings of Power> Gollum/Bilbo/Frodo represents the English order> The English secretly had been handed the keys to the IMF with the hope that they would destroy the world economy with one fatal blow, forcing all of the world governments to fall simultaneously> Now, in the final hour, it seems that the English have too fallen under the spell of the Ring, and now Sam, who represents the Irish, has to stop them and finish the job
>>540387516its the story about nose rings
>>540387567> nose ringsthats fucking funny. deep joke, germanon
>>540387516Cool schizo post, but nah. Tolkien took the story of Lucifer (Morgoth), Antichrist (Sauron) and Gog and Magog (Orcs and Uruks) and made a high fantasy version of it filled with various European folk creatures.
>>540387516That is just cute.Wait till you find out about Bezerk.
>>540387664You just said the same thing using a different symbolic framework, anon.
>>540387516>>540387664The Lord of the Rings is Saturn, the god of Abrahamic religions including Christianity.
>>540387845It was only ever a fantasized version of the end times in the three semitic faiths. You read the Bible, Quran, Torah and you end up with a similar story to what Tolkien wrote.
>>540387516>elves are jewsLook at this faggot.LOOK AT HIM.DISGUSTING.Apply rope judiciously, imbecile, and return to india.
>>540387516tolkien HATED allegories you fag
>>540387516Be honest. Did you ever read anything by Tolkien?
>>540387516
>>540387934Theres a reason for that.Its all differential prophecy of the same event.
>>540387991You clearly don't get sarcasm. He was joking when he said that - he knew his entire book was nothing but allegory.It was a very funny joke from a very clever man.
>>540387991To be fair Tolkien said he hated allegories but then put trench warfare into the Battle of Pelennor Fields. He said he hated allegory but made the fading Elven language directly based on the fading Welsh language. Not to mention the Dwarves. The Dwarves are short bearded men, scattered from their ancestral home, one of the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth yet with a separate origin from Elves and Men, known for their craftsmanship, known for being greedy, and just for good measure their language is directly based on Hebrew.
awful analysis
>>540388333because him saying he hated allegories was a joke. a rock solid one, and a lesson NEVER to take a fiction writer at face value
>>540387934>three semitic faiths3 religions 1 actual faith. The book is condemning misorientated morality. Try grounding literally any concept man has with ontologically self referential being and watch as literally nothing does that. There is only 1 God, so there is literally only 1 faith. Reality is not split into billions of fragmented sections and it only makes sense that the problem of morality is explained as a misorientation issue. Just because you can judge yourself, doesn't make you the center of moral reasoning. Sin arises because the being in question mistakes recursive thought for moral aseity. Which is why satan's rebellion is literally a being exhibiting moral recursion and using dualistic reasoning to justify it. Ergo evil is just a stageprop for someone to pretend to be God by correcting it. This is why man views the law and government as necessities. God's law doesn't condone the context in which it is necessary, it is used to reveal the orientation issue. You're using a derivative being whos ontology is created to substantiate ideas and opinions about the world and themselves to establish truth. Its completely misoriented with God's ontology. Hence the conflict. God had to come down here incarnated in the form of man to rectify man from within the context he's trapped in. The focus isn't supposed to be you, and theres nothing wrong with that, but everyone knee jerks to it, and as a result they build classifying factions derived from their own identities. This is why politics exist. This is also why different neopolitan flavors of the same recursive mechanisms express themselves as different ideologies, philosophies and religions. Countries even. God uses entropy to illicit the point that deriative recursive thinking is pride made manifest. The root cause of the issue and it starts with a moral dialectic that man places himself into in Genesis 3. Remove religion, secularism ceases to have meaning, because its derivative.
>>540388391>"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence."This doesn't seem like a joke. Even for dry English humour I think that is a stretch.
>>540387567Basically. The Ring of the Nibelung is superior.
>>540388333>known for their craftmanshipHmm.>craftmanshipUh huh.>obviously this isCoinclippers? Really? You think the dwarves are coinclippers...Bad news, mate. It is possible to be stupid despite all other variables. If that's what Tolkien meant, then he was a fucking imbecile.Jews are jeets.
>>540387567>Nose ringsWhat no thats stup... wait>Nose ringsOoooooh thats funny actually.
>>540388333
>>540388464>If that's what Tolkien meant, then he was a fucking imbecile.Yes, that is what he meant. He was genius, not only in story-writing but as a linguist.>>540388486Here is a quotes from the man himself confirming it for those skeptical.>“The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic.”
>>540387516Tolkien was a catholic. The ring represents sin and the dark arts. People think they can wield it for good ends, but get destroyed. Sméagol is someone hardened and incapable of repentance, whereas Boromir was able to say he was wrong like the thief on the cross. There’s tons of blatant Christian symbolism like this. Gandalf and Saruman are literally angels. Saruman falls and corrupts the land, stirring up people to violence and even possessing kings.
>>540388624>I don't understand what you said and must now reassert that he was a geniusHoly fucking mouthbreathing. Read it again, and continue doing so until you realize what I said.
>>540387516>> Dwarves are Europeans>Mein Nibelungen!
>>540388741>reassertI had not previously asserted it.>you realize what I saidI do. I simply disagree with your assessment.
>the ring is a magic ring>the dwarves are a race of delvers and craftsmen>the elves are immortal beings with love of nature and song>hobbits are small humans>sauron is a maiarthe book is a fantasy tale for children and is still the greatest novel ever penned. you faggots should read it instead of projecting your insecurities onto tolkien
>>540387567Why not cock rings?
>>540388812Here, let me state it plainly so that it is more readily apparent.The smarter one is, the greater one's capacity for abject stupidity.
>>540388877Tolkien himself confirmed the Dwarves are Jews. He based their language Khuzdul on Hebrew, just as he based the Elven language Sindarin on Welsh. It's obviously got a lot that kids wouldn't catch on to.>>540388977Okay. I disagree... double? What do you want from me.
>>540389013Intelligence.Self awareness.Modesty....Silence.
It's always funny to me when people think world currencies don't filter centrally... SWIFT for one, London Spider transfer... or anything else that you may think is decentralized, like for example crypto! IQ, sub temp.Sweet, sweet illusion, blissful delusion. mmmm
>>540387670Tell me anon
>>540388977>The smarter one is, the greater one's capacity for abject stupidity.sick of this fake profundity. lets try the inverse>the stupider on is, the greater one's capacity for commenable geniusi swear normies are swayed by the most meaningless of sentiments
>>540389087>ModestyThis from the guy who keeps insisting he is smarter, but never makes any points about the story at all.
>>540389013>confirmed dwarves are jewsthe secondary world was totally seperate to ours. it couldnt exist without influence from our world. but uncreative people have a need to explain things they dont understand. dwarves are dwarves in a fantasy world. your statment has no more truth to it than saying>tolkien confirmed dwarves were scandinavians
>>540389142>bell curve posts>refuses to notice what he saidCongratulations.>>540389221>vague unintended implications are assertionsConsidering the bar is you, the mud floor needs a layer of stone.
>>540389275>uncreative people have a need to explain things they dont understandDwarves are short bearded men. They have been scattered from their ancestral home. They are one of the Free Peoples, yet with a separate origin and separate cosmological destiny, bound to Middle-Earth itself. They are known for their craftsmanship and their greed. Their language is based directly on Hebrew. Tolkien said himself they are Jews, here's the quote from him.>“The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic.”Fans deny it because it makes them uncomfortable but there is no other reasonable interpretation of how he wrote this, and Tolkien even spelled it out. What more is there to say?
>>540387516>>540387983Tolkien himself said jews were Dwarves, which kind of makes sense because they're short, live in tunnels and horde gold underground. They were given Scottish accents to make the movies more relatable to a European audience.
>>540389364no u, literally
>>540389364>unintended implicationsOh please. Jerk yourself off some more why don't you.
>>540388333>The Dwarves are short bearded men, scattered from their ancestral homeRight, the jewish diaspora. >>540389377Unfortunately Tolkien admired jews, like many (((Anglos))) do.
>>540389377>Tolkien himself said...And for that, I called him an imbecile. Are you having issues following along?>>540389406The bar is literally inset. I didn't even step over it."I am not embedded in the floor" is miles away from self aggrandizement. Take the insult, retard.
>>540389552>still coping and seething>still not making one single point about the books
Retard. The Lord of the Rings is about power and virtue. Nothing is a direct 1:1 analogy. It’s a story about how power not directed by virtue is corruptive and destructive and what is really needed to defeat it is virtue, even from small basically powerless people.
>this is politicalDeny the janny political bullshit. This is POLITICALLY INCORRECT. There is no politics here. We come here to escape bullshit politics talk. If you want to talk Current Events (or Political shit), you can just go to /news/. When you faggots suck janny dick, you give them frame.Piss on their frame.Shit on their frame.Fart on their frame.Call their frame a nigger.Fuck jannies.
>>540389368when i read LotR, i read the dwarves in jewish accents. they are not jews though. you're taking superficial similarties and making the dwarves to be allegories for jews. the jews were nothing more than an inspiration for tolkien. i think we're splitting hairs her though because most of what you said is true, execpt for the fact that>dwarves are jewsdwarves are dwarves. tolkiens dwarves were inspired by jews. just as the were inspired by medievil german poems. just like they were inspired by dark age scandinavianstolkien was smarter than you. and far more creative
>>540389625>still not understanding the gap between craftmanship and coin clippingIt's not hard. At all.
>>540387516>author vehemently denies the story is allegorical>outright states he despises allegory>everyone wants to make it allegoricalit's not allegorical
>>540389720>i think we're splitting hairs herI agree, we are on the same page in all ways that matter. It's pedantic for us to argue over whether the reference is direct or indirect. We both see it exists.>tolkien was smarter than youUndoubtedly yes, but he was not a god. I'm not sure why he denied using allegory but I think it's clear that he did, and not just when it comes to the relations between Jew and Gentile. The fact that Sindarin is a disappearing language as the Elves depart from the world, and Sindarin is based on Welsh, is no accident.
>>540387516Mordor is the Ottoman Empire, which he saw defeated in WW1.that's why he didn't want comparisons to WW2 happenings. it's too bad that Tolkien didn't come out and say directly that Orcs, and Mordor, are a reflection of the centuries of Ottoman evil done to Europe.he even predicted the Saruman and Gríma Wormtongue types letting Orcs plunder the Shire.I wonder if he had known about letting Turks settle in Europe, would Tolkien have spoken up about the danger of letting Orcs roam free?
>>540389137somebody has to love you enough to be worthy of a sacrifice.
>>540389888>trench warfare in the Battle of Pelennor Fields>fading Elven language directly based on the fading Welsh language>(((Dwarves)))At some point it gets a bit ridiculous to keep insisting it's not allegory.
>>540389893>bases a disappearing language on a disappearing languageWOW! AMAZING!You clearly chew glass for the flavour.
>>540388333Tolkien was all about applicability, and the entire thing began as an escapist way to make his christian beliefs line up with the horrors of WWI he saw all around him as all his mates were killed without being blasphemous and actually writing fiction about Godso of course it's applicable as shit to his own experiences>>540389441>Tolkien admired jewsalso this
>>540389988At some point you deserve to be punched in the face.
>>540389988what a coincidence >>540390059
it can't be allegorical even because to Tolkien that itself would have been blasphemous because of everything about Iluvatar and the ainureven beyond his own disgust for allegory
>>540389893>he denied using allegory but I think it's clear that he did,i think because of politicisation honestly. even the national socialist tried to co-opt his writings. shit one of the best adaptations was a marxist interpretation and one of my favourite no-tolkien works in the legendarium comes from a soviet writerit seems like the man wanted his world to stand on its own. to truly be a secondary world. im sure you noticed most of his letters invloved the setting and world more than his literary tallents.he said in that bbc radio interview that it was never concious, refering to the christlike nature of frodo iircthe man was a sperg who wanted to play pretend. and i truly love him for that
>>540387664That and throw in he dreamed it up from the trenches on the western front
>>540390059The difference between allegory and applicability is nebulous at best. Essentially applicability done in a heavyhanded way that is not enjoyable to read is just allegory anyway, going by Tolkien's explanation of the difference. Personally I think he was just hung up on how much he hated Lewis' lion messiah. Even geniuses get hung up on shit with their friends.
>>540390253>The difference between allegory and applicability is nebulous at best.he was right, one is in the purposeful domination of the author's enforced narrative, the other is entirely in the reader's own experience and what they read into it
you can't read Lewis' shit any other way because he INSISTS on the christian allegory narrative
>>540390215>one of my favourite no-tolkien works in the legendarium comes from a soviet writertell me what it is anon>the man was a sperg who wanted to play pretend. and i truly love him for thatamen, he helped me learn the value of playing pretend when I was just a little sperg
>>540387516Though I don't agree with anything you said, that's quite an imagination and it's good you're able to apply fiction to reality with some reasoning behind it.
>>540390358the last ring bearer. its... well its different. almost like a rebbutal. its basically the origin for why russians identify with orcshttps://archive.org/stream/TheLastRingbearerSecondEdition/The%20Last%20Ringbearer%20Second%20Edition_djvu.txt
>>540390316>>540390345I would argue that adults cannot help but understand Tolkien's references to things like the disappearing Welsh language, Christian/Jewish relations, industrialization and trench warfare. Assuming they know about these things when they read it, which I guess is assuming a lot these days, but still.
>>540387516I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air.Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.It began with the creation of the Races of Men. Asia was given to the Asians, smallest and most populous of all beings. Africa to the niggers, savage tribesmen of the Savannah. And Europe, Europe was gifted to the race of Whites, who above all else, desired advancement of humanity. For within these lands was bound the strength and will to govern each race. And as long as the races were kept separate, the world would prosper. But they were all of them deceived, for another race was made...In the Holy Land, Deep in the Fires of Hell, Dark Lord Satan forged in secret the jewish race, and into this race he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life.One race to rule them all.One by one, the free lands of Europe fell to the power of the Jew, but there were some who resisted. A last alliance of germans and the honorary aryans Japanese, marched against the armies of the Jew, and on the very hills and towns of Europe, they fought for her freedom. Victory was near, but the power of the jew could not be undone. It was in this moment, when all hope had faded, that Hitler, greatest man to ever live, took up Hadrian's sword.Jew, enemy of the free peoples of Europe, was weakend, but far from defeated. The Jew passed to Great Britain and France, who had this one chance to destroy evil forever, but the hearts of men are easily corrupted. And the jewish race has a will of its own. It opened their borders, and over the years, led them to their deaths.
>>540387516>>540390548And the power of antisemitism, that should not have been forgotten, was lost. Antisemitism became legend. Legend became myth. And for over half a century, antisemitism passed out of all knowledge. Until then, the jew ensnared another bearer."Greatest...Ally"The jew came to the creature Amerimutt, who took it deep into the swamp of his federacy. And there it consumed him."Israel..." "Multiculturalism..." "Democrats are the real racists..." "My greatest ally..."The jew gave the Amerimutt unnaturally corrupt government. For seventy years it poisoned his mind, racemixing his once anglo genes in to a crude mockery of Aryan features. Deep in the back of Aryan minds, antisemitism waited. Darkness crept back into the far corners of the world. Rumor grew of a shadow in the Middle-East, whispers of a nameless fear, and the Jew perceived its time had come. It betrayed The Amerimutt, but then something happened that the Jew did not intend. The power of antisemitism was picked up by the most unlikely creature imaginable:"Hmm, what's this?"(You), a humble shitposter of the internet."Oy vey! Six million! Anuddah shoah!"For the time will soon come when 4channers will shape the fortunes of all.
>>540387516Tolkien rejected allegories. He found them distasteful
>>540390507>a rebbutal>why russians identify with orcskek they do WHAT? I thought that was just a meme. this sounds unhinged and I will definitely read it
>>540390059>Tolkien admired jews>also thisI think he knew the difference between ancient Hebrews (Dwarves) and contemporary Jews (Grima Wormtongue)
>>540390527>Assuming they know about these things when they read itthat's the thing, the reading into it starts getting colored by knowledge of the author and where inspirations for things came from, when it's more this mishmash of various influences going into it than any kind of allegory intent
the only actual narrative intent Tolkien had was replacement of lost native british myth from all the invasions
>>540390611>>540390548tried doing a vocaroo. i cant, i keep laughing. pasta saved
>>540390744>equating dwarves with ancient hebrews>for a christianhebrews would have been mendwarves were effectively golems created by Aule that were puppets at first which didn't even move or speak when Aule didn't make them with his will, he got impatient waiting for the elves so decided to make something himselfbut he lacked the flame imperishable so they had no true life or will til Iluvatar took pity on Aule and gave it to them
>>540390755>it's more this mishmash of various influences going into it than any kind of allegory intentI disagree. I think his allegory intent was obvious, despite what he says about it being applicability instead. I already spoke at length in this thread about the Christian/Jewish relations, but I haven't mentioned yet that Tolkien writes Legolas and Gimli's friendship as a big deal, even granted exception to the cosmological order when Gimli goes to the Undying Lands. The message is one of tolerance, and it aligns with his real world political views (see his response to Nazi Germany concerning The Hobbit publishing). I have already spoken about how he includes trench warfare at Pelennor Fields, but I haven't mentioned yet how he takes care to illustrate the valour and glory of the men on the other side of that battle, deceived by Sauron.>"the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars"He shows their courage and also their potential for goodness. Sam talks about this. The anti-war message could not be more obvious.>'It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much.He explicitly talks about how goblins invented the weapons that indiscriminately kill loads of dudes all at once, and how it is an evil kind of weapon that does this. We see in the story of the Ents vs Isengard, as well as in the Scourge of the Shire, Tolkien's message against excessive industrialization. In the Scourge of the Shire we also see how he writes his contempt for pedantic bureaucratic rules-listing into his story. I could go on but I think you get the idea. No adult can miss these messages when reading LOTR.
>>540390832Glad you enjoyed it, I made it myself
>>540387516Wrong 1000x overSauron = saturn = volcano demon (the center of his power is a fucking volcano)Saturn has......... ringsSaturn man, Sauroman = chief rabbi"I'm you're friend goy, I lead the good wizards".... proceeds to backstabBlack Numenorian, ie Mouth of Sauron, formerly White, turned goy frontman for saturn, twisted by his serviceNazgul = SanhedrinLesser agents like Grima Wormtongue = more mid level jews (remember chief rabbi saturn man, Sauroman, is his boss)Gandalf = Odin/Jesus hybridOrcs = nonsElves = nordsDwarves, many say are jews, kikes can't fight like that and can't build shit, they're Alpine Germans (think Swiss/Austrian, have shit tons of gold, very good at making things, dig in mountains, even the lore with the dragon, look up Mount Pilatus)Shire/Hobbits = native BritonsMen = rest of EuropeSaturn and his agents forge powerful objects (you sort of got it with pointing to direct things, they're means of manipulation plain and simple) but saturn backdoored all the other rings with his ownThe goy being desrious of power use them unknowinglySaturn and his disciples, whip up the nons to try and zergrush overrun where the Whites liveThe struggle for all White survival depends on the Briton being able to overcome the desire to use the power of the ring (jewish manipulation) for himselfOdin/Jesus is a powerful ally, but ultimately only we can save Middle Earth ie Europa
>>540391223Tolkien's politics were like the exact opposite of this nazi shit. When nazi German publishers wanted to get rights to The Hobbit, and required Tolkien to prove he was "Aryan", Tolkien laughed at them and said he had no Jewish ancestors but now he wished he did. It's really transparent when you try to twist his story to suit you.
>>540391149>I think his allegory intent was obvious, despite what he says about it being applicability instead.going to agree to strongly disagree>even granted exception to the cosmological order when Gimli goes to the Undying Lands.Frodo went too, and "undying lands" =/= immortality; Feanor's mother died there, all the elves Feanor killed when he stole the ships to pursue Morgoth did too>he takes care to illustrate the valour and glory of the men on the other side of that battle, deceived by Sauron.that really has nothing to do with any allegory>Tolkien's message against excessive industrialization. again none of these bits supports a larger allegory and all came from his own experienceslike I said this started as an intensely personal escapist way for Tolkien to line up his beliefs with his own life experiences and never really lost that quality
>>540387516> rings of power are centrally controlled blackmail/extortion ringsftfyThink about it. If you decided to begin issuing your own currency and it began being widely adopted because of its stability against the rapidly depreciating dollar, you would eventually get paid a visit by armed men. Why do men men who are willing and capable of extreme violence take orders from faggy kikes and old boys?What happens when kompromat can be convincingly faked?What happens when it loses its effect because it can be faked?
>>540391451>undying lands" =/= immortalityI didn't say that it did, but the cosmological rules were broken for the sake of this friendship which transcended the feud.>intensely personalOh come on. It was published. As in, made public.>all came from his own experiencesYes but that doesn't change the fact there is allegorical messaging in the story. It's not quite as heavy handed as Lewis' lion messiah but it's not super subtle either.
>>540387516.
>>540391149>I disagree. I think his allegory intent was obvious,Because you are significantly less intelligent than he was and can't understand his way of thinking.
>>540387516https://youtube.com/shorts/c9kd5Fciypw
>>540391223So if Sauron = saturnThen who the fuck is Morgoth supposed to be?
>>540391750I agree he was more intelligent than I am, but that did not make him superhuman. The allegory is undeniable when the coincidences just keep adding up. I won't bother repeating myself, I have typed a fuck load about it in this thread.
>>540391856>the allegory!>the undeniable allegory!>the lines I took from someone else because I would never figure this out on my own!>because it's fake and gay anyways!In the best case, you are incompetent at reading.
>>540391704>I didn't say that it didfair enough>Oh come on. It was published. As in, made public.the Hobbit was not actually connected to any of it at first, he threw in very minor references to his own headcanon world the same way he randomly throws fucking Bombadil into LOTR (a character he invented totally to amuse his kids that's only in there as a wink and nod to his children, that has absolutely nothing to do at all with LOTR or middle earth) (this is also why Christopher Tolkien was so furious it was removed he insisted that Jackson have nothing to do with Rings of Power when he greenlit that right before retiring)there was no real intent to publish that stuff in the silmarillion at all, that was a posthumous release, everything he wanted to be of that world in there is in LOTR and the appendices>that doesn't change the fact there is allegorical messaging in the story. again you are only seeing this because you know about the author's life and inspirations for things you don't need to know shit about Lewis to know that shit is a christian allegory
>>540392029Are you still here? Still with no points about the book? Anon, get a hobby, we're discussing ours here.
Is there any fantasy that isn't infested with jewish mythology and/christcuckery?
>>540391856You can't understand the concept of readers >Reading their own experiences into itBecause you are mentally retarded.
>>540392029Read this>>540390548>>540390611And then come tell me again that its not an allegory.Well, in fact, it's not "an" allegory, it's THE Allegory
>>540392048>you are only seeing this because you know about the author's lifePerhaps. It's impossible for me to know what I would have seen or not seen if I did not know about the author. However I do know that knowledge of Tolkien's life is not necessary to be aware of things like Christianity, Norse myth, World War One, Christian/Jewish tensions, the vanishing Welsh language, the deforestation of Britain, industrialization, bureaucratic overreach, explosive weaponry or anti-war politics.
>>540392063>how dare you find my mental vomit offensiveRepetition does not reinforce meaning. What you are pursuing is semantic satiation, ie depriving a word of its meaning through overuse.Less talky more thinky.
>>540392177My own experiences have nothing to do with World War One, Norse myth, the vanishing Welsh language, the deforestation of Britain or the evils of explosive weaponry. Yet I understood all the references. Whether you call it allegory or applicability, the messaging is clear.
>>540392215Please read what the retarded (((Leaf))) is claiming the allegory is. I'm not even arguing there is no allegory, only that the (((Leaf))) is shitting in the street.
>>540388333>dwarves are jewsThats fucking stupid for several reasons.>jews are NOT world reknown craftsmen>jews are violently allergic to manual/physical labour>the dwarves have no qualms about working every day>the dwarves don't have a million fucking rules and schemes intended to scam/trick their god>while the dwarves did betray their alliance with the darkwood elves, they don't make a habit of going around scamming and subverting everyone they can>dwarves don't rape, torture, sacrifice, and kill the captive children of the other races. >jews are laughably weak, dwarves are physically stronger than normal men despite their smaller stature>dwarves have absolutely no problem fighting their own wars
>>540392265I'm sure eventually you will be coming to some kind of a point about the books, right? You wouldn't just be posting all this without even being interested in the subject... right?
>>540392231>knowledge of Tolkien's life is not necessary to be aware of things like Christianity, Norse myth, World War One, Christian/Jewish tensions, the vanishing Welsh language, the deforestation of Britain, industrialization, bureaucratic overreach, explosive weaponry or anti-war politics.what you are hilariously doing is using your own applicability and insisting it's proof of an allegorical intent
>>540392081interesting question.Almost like asking if atheists can substantiate reality or even their own teleology using derivative reality to support their positions. Its tracking a fractal, and why you can disagree about what it implies, it doesn't dismiss the fractal.
>>540392357Ah yes, it was mere coincidence that Sindarin is based on Welsh. Nevermind that Tolkien himself said Dwarves are Jews, that doesn't make it allegory, oh no no no. And it's a total accident he shows the good characters being both outraged and amused by weak pissant little bureaucrats trying to control everyone. Total accident the industrialization is all done by evil. There are no messages here.
>>540392354>there's no way someone would engage specifically with me to tell me I'm a retarded faggot while I act like a retarded faggot, right?Hmm.Curious.We must now conclude that the bar was never embedded in the mud, it was component to the bedrock of reality, forever unreachable for mortal men.Yet here you are. Delving.
>>540392473What's your favourite part of the books? You definitely did read them right?
>>540392426>Nevermind that Tolkien himself said the story is NOT an allegory, and is not David fucking Lynch that will sit there and tell you with a straight face that "there is nothing satirical about Twin Peaks"like I said, agree to disagree>There are no messages here.that isnotallegory
>>540391800>So if Sauron = saturn>Then who the fuck is Morgoth supposed to be?LuciferPrideful, thought he could make creation better himself, sewing discord, fall from the heavens, is renamed once fallenGoing through the entire Silmarillion lore it isn't a perfect 1:1, but it's thereMost of the figures/races/etc aren't perfect 1:1's, but if you see it you see it
>>540392528>like I said, agree to disagreeYou're the one who got all snarky about it, faggot.
an allegory is a 1:1 substitution; the ring = a nuke, etcthat is not going on
>>540387991this, said it explicitly in the preface to Fellowship>>540388331fucking retard, he gave interviews and wrote letters repeatedly over decades shooting down accusations of allegory again and again.>>540388333full house wasted>>540389988what you are describing isn't allegory. Go back to highschool english class. >>540390253>The difference between allegory and applicability is nebulous at best.Wrong. Allegory describes a work written with a near 1:1 replacement of pieces of the work being able to be substituted out with real world comparisons, or another work, to make a statement about the thing being compared. What Tolkien called "applicability" was him attempting to write a story where it can be APPLIED to a wide range of the human condition. The ring doesnt have to be any one thing, it can be something as vauge as 'power as a corrupting force' or like the OP was spazzing about currency. Frodo's sacrifice of carrying the Ring could be applied to Tolkiens own catholic beliefs in the self sacrifice of christ, or to plain folk doing what they think is right simple because the believe it to be so. Thats part of the reason the Tolkiens work is still relevant, because he made it APPLICABLE to the human condition in general, instead of writing an allegorical work on a specific topic he cared about. Just because he brought inspiration from his own life and real world myths into his own fictional story does not make it allegorical.all that being said, yes it is a pity Tolkien was a soft fan of the jews. Though I have a suspicious that his mild Anglo hate boner for the Germans led him to side with kikes a little more than he normally would.
>>540392569not sure where else to go when you're insisting this hard on your own applied interpretation being allegory when the author insisted it was anything but
>reading through the rest of the thread>leaf shitting up a tolkien thread because he doesnt understand literary concepts taught in the 8th grade
>>540392580>>540392604Merriam-Webster dictionary defines allegory as "the expression of truths or generalizations about human existence by means of symbolic figures and actions". When Tolkien uses his story writing to reference real world truths this way, it is allegory, despite what Tolkien insists about "applicability". As I said before, the difference is nebulous at best. "Applicability" done heavy handed and not enjoyable to read is just allegory anyway. You guys are pedantic as hell.
>>540392528Sauron’s symbol in the book is literally an eye on top of a pyramid just like the jews of today use.
>>540392715Fucking jiws.
>>540392685>I googled a definition meant to pander to a population with an average IQ of 85 that can't readgee, sure showed me. I didnt even waste time or money on college and I remember this shit. You should refrain from giving your views on anything besides marvel slop and sportsball>You guys are pedantic as hellits literature, what the fuck did you expect. Thats the whole point.
>>540392742Du du du
>>540392685>muh dictionaryYou stupid fucking nigger Tolkien repeatedly, VEHEMENTLY denied his works were allegorical, shut the fuck up and stop trying to pull the classic christkike subversion of claiming everything is derived from your jewish horse shit.
>>540392763I didn't go to college either and if you think you have a better definition, I'd love to hear it.
>>540392503>it is impossible for someone to read the books and disagree with me>in a thread full of people calling you a moron>subject matter that filters the disinterestedSo what you're telling me is I'm interested in the books despite never reading them? Are you telling me about yourself?
>>540392801You know Tolkien was a devout Catholic, right? You seem completely clueless based on this post.
>>540392824You haven't made a single point about the books. You are focused on me, in fact. That is why I am suspicious.
>>540392808>I didn't go to college eitherYeah no shit, we can tell.
>>540392294>referencesMental hobbit
>>540387664Not really, no. Sauron is not the Antichrist. Morgoth may be lucifer, sure. That's not really inaccurate given he broke from the Ainulindalë and sang against the music of Eru Ilúvatar and sought to destroy all creation.Sauron, however, is not the "antichrist"Sauron, his true name being Mairon, was a Maia, think an immortal/divine being that serves the Valar (sort of Gods)Marion's original nature was of supreme order, perfection, and craftsmanship.Consider the following.With the decline of Numenor near the end of the 2nd age... what do we have in the 3rd age? Frodo leaves the shire in 3018 of the Third Age. That's THREE THOUSAND and EIGHTTEEN years after the fall of Sauron at the end of the war of the last alliance.What have the inhabitants of middle earth done in those 3000 years? FUCKING NOTHING. FUUUUUUUUCKING NOTHING.Rohan has had 3000 years to create a society beyond horse breeding and starving in the middle of fertile plains. Gondor has had 3000 years to rebuild Osgiliath and yet has not. There is no economy. There is no trade. We know that there is value in the world since dragons like Smaug horde gold and the dwarves continuously mine under the mountains looking for mithril. And yet everything that exists 3000 years into the 3rd age is passed down from the 1st and 2nd age.The 3rd Age is a world in perpetual decline.Sauron, being a being whose nature is aimed towards perfect order and perfection DID bind the wills of many to his master will. Mordor may be a horrible place full of all sorts of dark creatures but it is also has a command economy and currency, trades, guilds, smiths, machinists, etc.Meanwhile, what do we have in the rest of middle earth? Decaying ruins whose stories have been lost even to memory. Amon Sûl used to be a great watchtower for the North built by King Elendil, and yet when the hobbits are there in 3018 of the 3rd age, do they even comprehend this? No.Sauron did nothing wrong
>>540392855>he thinks college makes him smarter than meyoure the funniest guy in this thread
>>540392715>literally an eye on top of a pyramidyou used the word literally to compare a tower with a pyramid >>540392808I already gave you one, then you copy pasted the top AI result from google at me as a response
>>540390219Lol tolkien did 2 x 2 week stints in WW1, prob less than 99% of people who served
>>540392860>semanticsDon't you have anything more interesting to say?>>540392888Oh that was you, I see. Yeah your definition was incredibly stupid. By that definition almost nothing counts as allegory.
>>540392864now this is leaf shit postingyou do your country proud
>>540392835>you know he was catholicSo what? he repeatedly stated his stories were NOT allegorical, he spent his entire life openly refuting anyone who claimed they were. holy fuck christkikes are such unbearable fucking morons.
>>540392993So you're saying Tolkien was an unbearable fucking moron? We got a big fan over here
>>540392864Sauron saw a dying world where all manner of life has basically returned to being cavemen, humans dwelling in the ruins of past ages. Helms Deep? Built in the 2nd Age. Minis Tirith? Originally Minas Anor built in the 2nd age. Rohan has only existed for about 1000 years, being founded in around 2150 of the 3rd Age.Sting? Frodo's dagger? Forged in the 1st age.Narsil which became Andúril? Forged in the 1st age.And so on and so on.The 3rd age is an age of decay and Sauron's nature towards perfection, order, and crafting inclined him towards trying to manage a dying system perfectly.
>>540392928>Yeah your definition was incredibly stupid.thats fine, because its the accepted literary definition. Words have meaning>By that definition almost nothing counts as allegory.wrongit was once a very popular form of literature, much more common from the 19th century back. Especially in 'medieval' times where lots of authors basically wrote biblical fanfiction but with different character names and places. People now just write a shitpost on twitter when they have a problem with something instead of writing a whole book in response to another book.
>>540392883>cope tropeTolkien spent his entire life refuring anyone who claimed his stories were allegorical. You're wrong and fucking retarded.
>>540392928>interesting>as opposed to being correctretard
>>540393068>its the accepted literary definitionAccepted where? It looks like some shit you just made up, to me.
>>540393106I know he did. As I said before, I think he was a genius but too hung up on his friend's heavy handed allegory, to the point he tried to redefine his own allegory as something different (better). Which it was better but still, the allegorical messaging is impossible for a grown man to miss when he reads LOTR. It's not as heavy handed as Lewis but I have described in detail for this thread how Tolkien makes very obvious references to real world truths using his fictional world.
>>540392993>holy fuck christkikes are such unbearable fucking morons.While I usually agree with you, and in particular the ever lasting retardation of people who insist Tolkien's work was allegorical; I find it difficult to say that Tolkiens faith didnt have an impact on his work. The concept of the eucatastrophe he drew (I think explicitly but I'm not sure) from the death and resurrection for example.>>540393123go ask an english teacher fuck head. or go shit post on /lit/.
>>540393033In some ways, yes.But I'm mostly calling you a fucking retard because you're 34 posts deep into desperately trying to insist his stories are something he repeatedly, vehemently said they aren't, you fucking smoothbrain.
>>540393200Tolkien himself did say his stories are not allegory, and Tolkien himself ALSO admitted straight up the dwarves are jews. He was not an infallible god, he was a genius linguist and master story writer, there is a difference.
>>540393123>>540393199Or I dont know, an Oxford (preniggered) professor of english language and literature saying his work wasnt allegorical? Seems like he would know the definition pretty goddamn well.
>>540387516If anything the orcs would be Jews since they look the same. But instead of fighting they would be commiting jewery. And the eye of sauron would be Moloch or Baal.
>>540393176>no you don't understand even though he said his story was intentionally NOT allegoric I'm still going to insist it still is because he uh...>checks notes>he uh loosely based concepts in his story on other things he knew aboutWhether it's your own faith, or fantasy books with a long and clear written record to go with them, you fucking e-chiggers just cannot help but lie and make shit up.
>>540393290>Seems like he would know the definition pretty goddamn wellIt was personal for him, hence he made up a new definition for the word "applicability". he could do that kind of thing because he was a pretty big deal
Battle of the Pelennor Fields is literally the Battle at the Gates of Vienna. Corsair ships full of Ottoman Barbary pirates were a nice touch.even the shape of the map and placement of Mordor. Osgiliath as the fallen Constantinople.Tolkien substituted the earlier and more theme relevant Vienna battle in place of the WW1 final end of the Ottoman Turk Empire.it's why he couldn't just go on with the story after Aragorn becomes king. eventually you have to admit who the Orcs are. they keep spawning from some dark place. problem for Tolkien is diplomatic relations with Turkey and any offense that might be taken by Turks being compared to Orcs. vehement denial was his only choice.
Canadian leftist retards hate Tolkien and CS Lewis and seek to tear them down like everything else good in the world.
>>540393348Right. It's just a coincidence that the fictional little bearded guys known for greed have a language based on Hebrew. Let none question ever again.
>>540393287>he's still hung up on his self insert fantasyYou are not in the books.Scamming merchants are not expert craftsmen.Stop clipping coins.>Tolkien's misapprehensions regarding my people are excusable because he directly referred to us!Go the FUCK back to india.
>>540387516Actually, I think only the Hobbit really goes deep on the jews and WWII. LOTR was an incomprehensible mess.
>>540387516way off dude
>>540393456I don't even know what the fuck you're trying to say here, and I don't really care
>>540393409I love Tolkien. I just don't think Sauron did anything wrong.
>>540393414They're not just based on jews though, you lying snake. They're a mishmash of norse and germanic history too.>Dwarven runes from older forms of their language are often 1:1 copies of norse runesNot to mention everything else I stared in the above post that you conveniently ignored:>>540392350their culture and language might be based on semitics, but their actual behaviour(love of axes, fighting, drink, axes and crafting) are notably norse/germanic.
>>540393538>I just don't think Sauron did anything wrong.the problem is that his goal was to force everyone to live like an orc.
>>540387516>Elves are Jews>Anglos are noble and working for higher cause
>>540393596The Cirth (the runic alphabet) originates from the Elves, not the Dwarves. They merely adopted it.
>>540393596Sorry, not their culture. Their quest and recent history. The only reason the dwarves we deal with directly in the hobbit are even homeless was because their home was invaded by a goddamn dragon, and the other dwarven holds couldn't support their population. By the time of the events of TLOTR the dwarves got their home back. Also, OTHER DWARVES STILL HAD THEIR HOMELANDS. Only the dwarves of the lonely mountain lost their home, and it was temporary.
>>540393743The Lonely Mountain was itself a refuge. All of Durin's Folk (the Dwarves we actually see in The Hobbit and LOTR) lost their home to Durin's Bane.
>>540393684Okay, and? The Norse and Germanic peoples eventually adopted English, are they jews too? Are the Japanese, koreans, italians, Russians, etc jewish because they adopted English?
>>540393359he didnt have to 'make up' a definition for the word 'applicability' He had to specifically give his work a different definition so retarded smooth brain faggots like you could maybe have a hope at understanding the difference.>>540393414holy fuck I hate youI hate myself for sperging out>smeagol comparisons etc etcI dont know why I fucking bother with /pol/ anymore. Everytime I see a Tolkien thread I get a little bit of hope because its an intersect of two of my favorite things: Hating jews and Tolkien's stories. Then every single time I have to try and explain to room temperature IQ faggots what is and is NOT an allegory, point to the EXACT PASSAGE where tolkien says his work isnt allegorical, and these brown retards posting on a white mans internet with dirty brown fingers have to insist>nO rEallY, tHe rInG wAs blah blah blahlike they received the sacred hidden knowledge of what tolkien was really trying to say, like they are the first and the smartest to ever have made the connection before. When the whole fucking point of Tolkien writing Lord of the Rings in particular was to tell a story that could be applied to the human condition so broadly, yet told with such deep ancient echoes, so that anyone (white people) could read the story and not only be entertained and inspired by it, but be prompted to think on concepts with wider APPLICABILITY to the human experience.>what it means to be brave>the price of duty and responsibilities>the power of friendship (unironically)etc etcBut a dog raping, jeet blowing, maple suckin, tim horton enema loving LEAF has to shit up an entire thread.
>>540393841You misunderstand. The runes (which as you said are directly just old norse runes) are Elven, not Dwarven. Therefore your claim that the runes are evidence of Dwarves being a mishmash of Norse is false. Names like Gimli and Gloin sound Norse, but are Mannis names, adopted like the Cirth was adopted from Elves. Dwarves keep their true Khuzdul names secret.>>540393860I ain't reading that
>>540393287>admitted straight up the dwarves are jewsNoWell done showing you know fuck all
>>540393668No, no.. that's not necessarily true. The Easterlings that sided with Sauron didn't live like Orcs. The realm of Rhûn where the Easterlings came from is clearly advanced enough to have advanced metalworking, silk production, science and technology enough to build powerful ships capable of crossing the eastern sea, compare these to the ships we know of from middle earth, little canoes and rafts and the like. So it can at least be inferred (because we don't know anything about the region) that they live at least at a similar level of civilization as 2nd age Gondor.
>>540393963I will post the quote again, just for you.>“The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic.”Straight from the horse's mouth.
>>540393954Kill yourself
>>540393996That's not tolkien you retard, that's the interviewer, you can listen to that yourself and maybe get a clue
>>540394022why u mad though
You guys seems oblivious to the fact that up until a few years ago it was forbidden to speak of the jews at all. Talking about them in any way that might be considered negative would lead to punishment by many different groups, least of all the jews themselves.
>>540393787And?That doesn't change the fact there are other known Dwarven kingdoms at the time of the hobbit/LOTR that didn't lose their homelands, not counting the ones that fell to sauron, sarumon, morgoth, etc.For example: The danfolk of the iron hills, and the four dwarven clans of the east that we never really see in the stories, but still survived. Even then, the clans who's cities fell in the first/second age still survived and went out east to the red mountains.
>>540394038No, that is in fact what Tolkien said. Listen yourself. 1971.
>>540394081>there are other known Dwarven kingdomsOh boy you're getting desperate. There is virtually no information on them except in the Silmarillion. In that book we see the two western Dwarven clans also lose their ancestral homes, while also being greedy.
>>540394085Moron the interviewer is saying they are semitic, and tolkien says their language is based on the semitic language, thanks for showing you know fuck all and basically invalidating every one of your comments tho
>>540393954>you misunderstandno I don't, I'm not the one 45 posts deep desperately trying to insist these stories are something the author repeatedly stated they are not.
>>540392864>>540393067>advocating for the complete domination in mind body and spirit in service to an entity that will do nothing but rape the land for all eternity for no other purpose than to see it under his dominion and control.like I said, great shitpostingunlike your fellow leaf itt, at least you have style
>>540394166I posted Tolkien's quote word for word.>The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic.He says it's quite obvious they remind people of Jews. What do you say about that anon?
>>540394048Why are you retarded?
>>540394169>trying to make it about meMake points based on the books as I did, or fuck off.
>>540394215That first part is not tolkien moron, I've listened to the interview, can you understand english? do you think he's schizophrenic and questioning himself?Lmao moron confirmed
>>540394280>I've listened to the interviewIt seems like you haven't.>do you think he's schizophrenic and questioning himself?In conversation, it's not that weird to use rhetorical questions. You might not get this because you're autistic.
>>540394149>45 posts deep desperately trying to insist the story is something the author repeatedly said it isn't.I'm not the one who's desperately trying to make the lord of the rings into a 1:1 christian/catholic allegory you projecting nigger.>In that book we see the two western Dwarven clans also lose their ancestral homes, while also being greedyYes, the two western clans who's mixed descendants we see get their current home back in the hobbit.the four eastern clans are never touched on directly beyond aknowledgement they existed and built their own hidden cities and kept to themselves.
>>540394313Moron go listen to the interview You clearly don't have a clue
>>540394242I did, and you ignored them several timessuck start a shotgun you fucking stupid jew worshipping nigger. We get it, you can't understand anything that wasn't distilled by jewish gobbeldygook, and you probably cant even understand that either.
>>540387516>Tolkien doesn't care for allegory and invents a fairytale word to play with language and create an Anglo Saxon mythos>Omg this is about jews / freemasonry / muh dick / nuclear war / I rewired the tosster on methYou're not better than the fags at the Tolkien society who insist elves are trans coded
>>540394338I will listen again since you seem so adamant, but Tolkien also wrote about this in his letters, it is no secret. You should listen again too anon
>>540394338it pains me to correct you anon. It wasnt the interviewer who compared the dwarves to the jews, it was Tolkien himself. Literally just listened to it to double check. The cursed leaf is still misrepresenting the quote tho in his wild attempt to force allegory into the conversation. >G: Did you intend in Lord of the Rings that certain races should embody certain principles: the elves wisdom, the dwarves craftsmanship, men husbandry and battle and so forth?>T: I didn't intend it but when you've got these people on your hands you've got to make them different haven't you. Well of course as we all know ultimately we've only got humanity to work with, it's only clay we've got. We should all - or at least a large part of the human race - would like to have greater power of mind, greater power of art by which I mean that the gap between the conception and the power of execution should be shortened, and we should like a longer if not indefinite time in which to go on knowing more and making more.Therefore the Elves are immortal in a sense. I had to use immortal, I didn't mean that they were eternally immortal, merely that they are very longeval and their longevity probably lasts as long as the inhabitability of the Earth.The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. Hobbits are just rustic English people, made small in size because it reflects (in general) the small reach of their imagination - not the small reach of their courage or latent power.
>>540394458>wild attempt to force allegory into the conversationyou guys are comical. it's clear you will keep insisting all allegory by tolkien is "applicability" until you are blue in the face. I love tolkien but frankly get off his dick
>>540394190Again, there's no evidence of this. In fact what we do have evidence for comes directly from the Mouth of Sauron. The terms of surrender given to Aragorn were:>Gondor and it's allies would have to retreat to the East of the Anduin.>Never attack Sauron again>Surrender all lands to the East>Disarm>Become tributaries to Mordor>Organize politically under a new principality ruling from Isengard.There is no such "complete domination of the mind, body, and spirit"There is general freedom under a totalizing empire. Which I would take over starving to death in a decaying post-Numenorian world full of ruins and garbage and lost mythology where even the Elves no longer wish to remain.
>>540394400>you ignored themNot at all. In fact I refuted your point using the facts from the story, enlightening you about the true origin of the Cirth, and your response was sperg out. it seems I am casting pearls before swine (thats applicability btw)
If I had a button to kill either a million poos or this leaf, I would press the button to kill the leaf
>>540394573good. seethe for me bitch
>>540394551>There is no such "complete domination of the mind, body, and spirit"what were the rings? what were the orcs, if nothing but twisted and corrupted by dark magic and torture until they were bound to his will? Do you think the free peoples under his new domain would have faired any better? Even a cursory reading of the Silmarillion invalidates everything you are saying of the character of Sauron. You dont even need to do that, I'm pretty sure the appendix of the Return of the King goes through how Sauron corrupted the Numenoreans by leveraging their fear of death.once again, great shitposting. I'm only feeding (you)s so lurkers arent taken in by retardation
