NATO is a collective defense pact that is capable of protecting the alliance against smaller foes.The logic behind Article 5 is to crush enemies by overwhelming force, in as far as this would not result in bodybags for NATO.This is why NATO does not have the ability to go into a hot war against Russia, because any such war would result in tens, or maybe hundreds of thousands of bodybags for NATO - a political cost not a single member of the alliance would be physically capable of paying.People who think that NATO is willing to throw themselves mindlessly into Russian spears usually live in the Butthurt Belt area. And with the exception of Poland - have no real armies of their own. (that is - they cannot pay the cost on their own, and expect the cost to be paid by someone else)
>>540816668iran is showing the wests power is mostly just a larp and all our institutions are hollowed out shells full of parasotes and pretenders who specialize in looting and exploiting their postions for self gain
>>540816870NATO isn't involved with Iran.
>>540816923tru
>>540816923Burgers are like 80% of NATO power. If they're failing against Iran, well, how do they plan to win against Russia?
>>540816870>iran is showing the wests power is mostly just a larp Hahahaha
>>540816668>The logic behind Article 5 is to crush enemies by overwhelming forceA NATO member can just send strong word on X and be done with the Article 5
>>540816923well they were supposed to, just like in Serbia, Libya, Afghanistan, soldiers from all NATO countries participated. So it was surprising they pussies out with Iran and betrayed US. Probably NATO just can’t really fight a war, they are only meant to execute defensless people who can not really respond. Once they face a worthy opponent they immediately found excuses like «NATO is not for that»
>>540817097In all of these only a handful of members did anything at all and send soldiers.
>>540816987The Problem is not burger firepower, it's their retarded leadershipIt's an special ed. class playing with adult stuff
>>540817087What did this achieve other than unite the entire nation of Persia as a result? Jews are truly retarded and it shows.
>>540816668russia can't fight ukraine and they get scraps of NATO equipment
>>540816987NATO will be fine without the JEWSA
>>540819572>russia can't fight ukraine and they get scraps of NATO equipmentreality on the ground contradicts your claims
NATO can not fight a combined China and Russia. NATO will not be fighting just Russia likely ever as it will be a combined China and Russia opposition to NATOPresenting it as just NATO vs Russia is stupid
>>540816987If Ukraine with a population of 30 mil could hold Russia what could Europe with a population of 600 million do?You think you can't find even half a million able bodied men willing to defend their countries? That's 1 in 1200.
>>540819643Nobody understands that Asians are incapable of being in any military alliance.China will never fight someone else's wars. Never ever. This notion is simply missing from their psyche.
>>540819580>NATO will be fine without the JEWSApart of the reason why NATO exists was to prevent Germany, France and UK from going to war aganst each other. Later it was transformed into an anti-USSR bloc. Now it's transformed into an anti-Russia bloc.But the key founding component remains in place. For as long as USA is present in the alliance, traditional power-struggles cannot reignite between major western European powers. The moment USA leaves NATO, you will have a brief period of EU attempting to transform NATO into a "EU Army", later followed by small military clashes and territorial disputes between EU member states.
>>540819654>If Ukraine with a population of 30 mil could hold Russia what could Europe with a population of 600 million do?nothing much.Every single time there was some kind of conflict that Europe disapproved of or wanted to benefit from, they'd immediately get directly involved.The war in Ukraine seems to be the most "wrong" conflict in EU's mental history, yet they can't afford to get directly involved. For reasons I described in OP. Oh and the population of EU doesn't matter, because EU isn't a country. The moment EU attempts to subjugate its member states to mandatory conscription, there won't be much of EU unity left whatsoever.
>>540819679same goes for Europe
>>540819629ok
>>540819754EU is not a defence alliance. you should be talking about NATOAnd NATO would defend Europe even without the US
>>540819794comparing Ukraine to Iraq is the dumbest shit ever reddit ever attempted
>>540819820>And NATO would defend Europe even without the USno
>>540819773Well then Renault would lose its Dacia plantKaufland will lose it immense market in Romania and the whole Eastern EuropeSo would Lidl, so would every Western Euro corporation.You think they afford to see their businesses lose a huge market share and profits?You're deeply mistaken. This is about interests.
>>540819679Nigger you faggots will be whining that NATO has to fight not only Russia but also China. You faggots will spam non-stop that you said all along that NATO vs Russia was propaganda to present NATO as at least level or greater than Russia because you know if you admit it will be Russia and China vs NATO you faggots have to shift your propaganda narrativeYou do not want to address a combined China and Russia vs NATO. You want it to be just Russia vs NATO
>>540819698>later followed by small military clashes and territorial disputes between EU member states.Lol. Why are you russians so retarded and delusional you believe something like this?
>>540819864China would not get in a war against EuropeYou're stupid
>>540819854>Lidldo you unironically believe that a grocery store, or a car manufacturing plant, can decide how many millions of Europeans need to die?
>>540819835Yes, that's right—Russia has had a lead since 2014 but hasn't been able to build on it.
>>540819882>delusionalhave you studied European history?
>>540819894You know you must maintain that propaganda position until the start of the war. You do not even want to entertain the idea that NATO will face a combined Russian and Chinese opposition. None of you NATO propaganda faggots will. You want it to be just NATO vs Russia
>>540819925Ukraine was built by USSR as a military fortress, and Ukraine's infrastructure was designed to continue operating in the event of a nuclear war. The republic was viewed by USSR leadership as a spearhead against NATO in case of WW3.Hence this is where all the massive stockpiles of ammo came from, and hence why every factory turns into an underground military facility, holding the defense of the entire city together. Russia's are basically fighting what they had themselves constructed to be unbreachable.But they're doing it in the context of unlimited money, supplies, ammo, ISR, reconnaisance being supplied to Ukraine by NATO. And the funny part? Not only did Ukraine run out of ammo, it's not forcing EU to run out of ammo as well. While continuing to lose territory to the Russians.
>>540816668Nato's has close to 8 times the population of Russia. If they simply round up enough chuds and throw them at the frontlines, victory is assured.
>>540820010>it's not forcingit's now forcing
>>540819820>EU is not a defence alliance. you should be talking about NATOretarded gypsy, the EU has a defensive clause that is more robust than natos art 4/5
>This is why NATO does not have the ability to go into a hot war against RussiaFunny how ukraine can tho
>>540820034>Nato's has close to 8 times the population of Russia. If they simply round up enough chuds and throw them at the frontlines, victory is assured.NATO is not a countrytherefore there is no chance of NATO rounding up any chuds, without risking the collapse of the NATO treaty in the process
>>540820048Ukraine also can not, but they can’t choose.
>>540816987>muh 'murrica supremacyAmerica watched how powerful drone-based warfare is in the Russia-Ukraine war and instead of developing that they assumed that they could subjugate anyone using their old strategies because they think they're unstoppable.Add to that that the fact that the USA needed the rest of NATO's support for logistics and that this war was started under false pretenses by a retarded octogenarian at the behest of another country and against the wishes of his own military; and of course it has been a shitshow.>>540817097The rest of NATO understands that this war is pointless and will make everything worse for everyone. Not giving support to the USA is a way of pressuring them to finish the war.
>>540820066They can not for 5 years, wow
>>540819904Yeah you will see, if the moment comes
>>540819963China is too far to do shit vs EuropeAnd Russia is bankrupt
>>540820160wait so you unrionically think Lidl will round up millions of European men and tell them to go to the trenches?absolute kek
>>540820043That's just a cope in case NATO fails to agree anythingThat clause would be used as a backup plan but it's not the main defence foundation for EuropeHeck even a coalition of the willing would work, without any freaking treaty
>>540820177>And Russia is bankruptwhat, again? This is the 5th time Russia got bankrupt in the past 5 years
>>540820189There are tens of Western firmsThey own about half of our GDPYou think they would throw all that away?More than 100 bn euros per year?And it's not just us, but also Poland and the whole region.
>>540820206soldiers do not pledge allegiance to nor die for alliances/treaties/organisations. Only a country has the authority to send men to die in a war. But that is always inherently tied to defending said country from an imminent threat.UK, France, Germany face zero imminent threats from Russia. They're geographically too far away.
>>540820010>fortress built by the USSR>new marginot line of verdunnigger, they are fighting for fieldsthe biggest town russia has captured is mariupol and that was in 2023
>>540820224>There are tens of Western firms>They own about half of our GDP>You think they would throw all that away?>More than 100 bn euros per year?>And it's not just us, but also Poland and the whole region.That's international capital at this point, and international capital doesn't care about nationalism. They open their factories wherever they want, and whenever it maximises profits. Some of EU businesses are already owned by China.
>>540820218Their wealth fund is almost gone.They have nowhere to borrow fromDeficit target has been reached in just half a yearWildberries turned into dingleberries on a daily Lost about 30-40% of oil and gas revenue after replacing Europe with China as a customerThe future does not belong to oil.. so that means Russia has no futureInflation still in doublt digitsBankruptcies increasingNonperforming loans above 5% for banks, that's bigMilitary budget continues to balloon even though it doesn't translate into significant gainsAll this for 4 oblasts in the poorest shithole in Europe
>>540820298>they are fighting for fieldsthat's funny, then I wonder what are all those thousands of buildings soldiers hide in and get bombed out in
>>540816668You don't know that. That's why NATO is so valuable. You can only speculate what would happen if shit would go down. A known unknown. It could fold like a paper bag day one, yes. You can even assume that's a more likely scenario. But are you willing to risk it? If you miscalculated, you are suddenly at war with dozens of European countries at once with a full backing of US military industry and Kaliningrad and St.Petersburg woefully exposed to the enemy. and entire baltic and northern sea coastlines becoming hostile waters.
>>540820275If they won't do anything, we'll nationalise all their businesses hereAbout 150 billion euros worthNow add Poland and others tooShould get to about half a trillion in losses for themNo problem for that money we can defens ourselves by all building as many nukes as possibleIn fact, we're already probably building nukes as we speak
>>540820389>You don't know that. That's why NATO is so valuable. You can only speculate what would happen if shit would go down. A known unknown.political math, there are no absolute unkowns
>>540820337russia about to collapse kek
>>540820386>thousands of buildingslmao
>>540820433Unironically, it's inevitableIt's just gonna take a little longer than 2 weeks
>>540820394So your first defense was to claim that grocery stores will build armies to fight Russia.Your new defense is that you will build a nuke.And you expect people to take your seriously.
>>540816668NATO main strength is not military, but political. Their strength is regime control, and in that sense they have been quite successful. Also no country has ever left NATO. Yugoslavia, Romania and Albania managed to escape the Warsaw pact. No country has ever managed to escape NATO. Hungary was just controlled opposition, some kind of bait for Putin. If any country ever leaves NATO the price they have to pay would be extremely high.
>>540820415Every war that goes wrong is started by political math. Every victory changes that math into your favor. Then hubris sets in and you end up shooting yourself in the head in your bunker.
>>540819927I have. Have you ever read a history book that was not rewritten by russian censors?
>>540820435>Pokrovsk>Avdiivka>Kostiantynivka>Chasiv Yar>Bakhmut>Kupyanskstop seething
>>540820457>Unironically, it's inevitable>It's just gonna take a little longer than 2 weeksprobably about 100 years then?
>>540820510>I have. Have you ever read a history book that was not rewritten by russian censors?okay, book readertell us how many wars Europe fought with itself (excluding Russia)
>>540820539that are villages in europenigger, its not africa or russia were a village with 50k people and a couple thousand buildings is the new marginot line.Kostiantynivka: from ~78,000 Bakhmut: from ~71,000 Pokrovsk: from ~60,000 Avdiivka: from ~31,000 Kupyansk: from ~27,000Chasiv Yar: from ~12,000
>>540820457the usa will not allow russia to collapse. they are too valuable as a buffer against china. russia is such a joke that we can do whatever we want with it. it's good that they still believe they are in control though
>>5408203861. I said they use thousands of buildings: >>5408203862. You made fun of that statement and implied it's wrong: >>5408204353. I gave you examples of cities/towns that have thousands of buildings: >>5408205394. You responded with telling me that those cities have thousands of buildings, therefore I'm wrong: >>540820624are you off your meds?
>>540820464Can you read the progression of arguments or do you pretend to be dumb?My answer was in reply to a hypothetical situation in which allies by treaty do not honour their obligations. Then we nationalise their wealth here and we can fund local nuclear defence.
>>540820584No just a few yearsUntil churkas will plant the green flag of Allah on the Kremlin and declare the caliphate
>>540820694You claimed that the USSR turned Ukraine into a fortress.Today, a village is considered a fortress for zigger
>>540820702I can translate your argument:>we will take away their grocery stores, and use that money to build a nuclear bombI can imagine this scenario, in a children's coloring book.
>>540820728yeah I think you should write children's books, you might earn enough to build a nuclear bomb
>>540820048How do they do that if NATO is already working for them? NATO won't have any more weapons; at most, the Romanians and Poles will join the trenches, but they'll be far worse soldiers and far less motivated. And when the French and Spanish join in, it'll be a simple plunge to the bottom with a quick capitulation.
>>540820736You can't stick to your own argument in the progression of just 4 replies. What else is there to be said about your ability to speak of big politics
>>540820747150 billion euros worth of groceries, hell yeah
>>540816923Damn, you actually believe this? France, England, Germany, Turkey, hell even Ukraine is involved.
>>540820796What I meant was that, so far, Russia has only taken villages, and Mariupol was the largest city—it had a population of just 400,000 before the war.Odessa has 900,000, just for comparison, and Kyiv has 2.5 million.still a fact, you just coping about some imaginary fortresses.
>>540820805>150 billion euros worth of groceries, hell yeahby different estimates EU already lost over 4 trillion euro just from economic damages caused by the war. This doesn't include the losses incurred from giving Ukraine financial assistance.This is also why EU tried so hard to use 300 billion euro in confiscated Russian assets to continue funding Ukraine, despite the enormous legal risks to EU for doing so.Now let's wait and see how Romania uses 150 billion euros in tomato and potato money to become a nuclear superpower.You really can't make this shit up, the comedy writes itself.
>>540816668Just make robots do the fighting.Then you don't have bodybags, it's going to be production capacity warfare.
>>540820394What you're talking about is exactly what Europe and Zelenskyy are now demanding from the US—that is, grenades for Ukraine. But these are precisely guarantees of a European presence in Ukraine. Essentially, the EU and Ukraine are demanding that the US pay for the security of European businesses.
>>540820908>What I meant was that, so far, Russia has only taken villages, and Mariupol was the largest city—it had a population of just 400,000 before the war.>Odessa has 900,000, just for comparison, and Kyiv has 2.5 million.>still a fact, you just coping about some imaginary fortresses.most cities have almost no civilians left by the moment the war reaches the city limits, they all get evacuated.The "villages" you speak of represent dense defense lines/networks, and each town/village that represents a long battle is deeply fortified.
>>540819894NATO is stupid enough to get in a war with China
>>540816923Yes, but even if we were (good we aren't, of course), then what do we have to contribute?We don't have aircraft carriers.You may think Jews would want Europe to contribute bodies, but our armies are a joke - they wouldn't be able to do anything except for minor support roles to American troops and deaths would only serve to antagonize Europe towards USA even further, which is against Jewish interests.
>>540820918Yeah and nothing bad happened.Because the EU is rich enough.If they break the treaties I don't see why wouldn't we. It's legal mirroring.
>>540820975Now you're going in circles.First you say the USSR built up Ukraine's defenses, and now you're saying they're the result of the long battlesyou are just coping
>>540820034If. Nigga, NATO countries are internally disunited shitshows. The political blowback of trying to draft millions of men, half of whom fucking hate the government no matter who is in power would set off civil wars all over the place.Covid might be seens as a dry run for obedience to the state sure, but there is no way to spin 'go get shot at by russians' as 'safe, effective, and recommended by every doctor we didn't excommunicate'War takes time. A generation of boys must be raised that are primed to be involved in one. What have nato countries been preaching to the kids? Oh yeah, love, non-violence, the evils of following a flag, and being a weak pussy concerned with personal safety, safe spaces , and other things antithetical to being a soldier.
>>540821009>Yeah and nothing bad happened.>Because the EU is rich enough.yeah right, EU's GDP is 23 trillion, and they lost 4 trillion in a matter of few years over a war they aren't even directly involved in on the battlefield.What do you think will be the losses for EU if they have to go to direct war against Russia?How many EU factories are going to be deleted from the map?
>>540820337Imma take this with a grain of salt. 3 years ago you guys were saying russia is down to fighting with shovels from horseback n shit. There was a solid month of overlap between the 'russians are fighting with meatwaves armed with shovels' and 'ukraine desperately needs every bit of wunderwaffe nato can spare to defeat russua' stories, kek
>>540821049>First you say the USSR built up Ukraine's defenses, and now you're saying they're the result of the long battlesyou have reading comprehension, I said that villages/towns that result in long battles, is because they were built like fortresses
>>540821009>EU is richMay I see that debt credit score?
>>540821144>4 trillion in a matter of few years4tn in 4 years in a total GDP of 92tn is indeed not much
>>540821188Triple A
>>540821156It wasn't me saying that, you're arguing a straw man
>>540820947>production capacity warfareimplying NATO would win thatlmao
>>540816668One has to wait for the ongoing Ukraine war to conclude in order to pass the judgement on Mother Russia v. Nato fags
>>540821168Are you trying to tell me that those are special fortress buidlings?Do you even know what a well-prepared defense actually looks like?
>>540821234I didn't ask for good goy ranking lolGermany's went from 60 to 90 in less than 2 years btw
>>540821866And before that they went from 90 to 60 in several years tooYou don't realise how disciplined Euro states can be with their money.It's not like in South America where they keep borrowing until they go bankrupt
>>540819835On paper they had very similar numbers of troops and equipment but Arabs are retarded monkey cowards.Slaveshits are subhumans too so yes it can be compared.
>>540821931>You don't realise how disciplined Euro states can be with their money.Yeah, the fiscal logic of sending billions to an non member country so ukranian jews can buy more golden toilets truly escapes me.
>>540819854German companies can survive with the German market alone that they go international is just for the sake of numbers must go up nothing else.
>>540819864Retarded mutt since when did Europe ever cared about China? That's entirely an American problem and we don't care about China. It's you Americans who are butthurt that we don't want a war with China.
>>540820298They are fighting to destroy the Ukrainian army so they no longer pose a threat it’s one of the stated Russian objectives this war is going exactly as /pol/ thought it will go back in 2022 landlocked and all.
>>540821188The combined natiomal debt of NATO members combined is over 60 trillion dollars and growing fast.NATO had to pay the debt jews 2 trillion dollars a year in intetest before they can buy a single bullet.
>>540821669Cities in the USSR were originally built with all-out war in mind, so they're effective as fortifications. They're not completely bomb-proof, but they're also not like Gaza, where a single small bomb can destroy an entire building.
