The concepts of capitalism and socialism are very nebulous and mean very different things to different people. Very often arguments between people pushing these ideas just devolves in a game of who can stretch their label over all the good parts of humanity while trying to deny that any of it could ever be considered part of any other system.We need to get past the labels and focus on what are the problems and what are the solutions.Most people who are in favor of capitalism are so because they like things like markets, not because they like usury. And modern day college shit lib types that call themselves socialist don't even understand basic economics. So the argument between these people is always the same and never goes anywhere. I written something to clarify what capitalism is from the Marxist perspective, and will compare this to the libertarian view as well as the more traditional Laissez-faire liberal perspective.I also include various miscellaneous items, like the housing question, and some basic points about Hegel and Aristotle, which were left unsaid. https://file.kiwi/1766cc90#VdY2IbSXb1TidW8iRTjFkwI was inspired by this video from the Mises Institute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOk7oA9L3k4Someone get Trotsky
/lit/ - economic systems
>>544203108Buy an ad?
>>544203108>Most people who are in favor of capitalismMost people are in favor of capitalism because since then our material wealth has been going up constantly. Every injustice in it is overlooked by appealing to this notion. I'd like to find an alternative or at least see if this system is worth it because I'm currently inclined to agree and I don't like it. What I am planning to read>Capitalism - Sven Beckert>Wealth of nations - Adam Smith>*insert a lot of books here* - Marxand then maybe the Picketty book. If anyone has recommendations I'll take em
>>544203108>like marketsI like doing with my assets what I will.
>>544203108Indeed, these are strict concepts formulated by comrades Lenin and Marx clearly
>>544203108>arguing semantics of outdated ideals in 2026
>>544203108never read Marx if you want the Marxist perspective on capitalism.
>>544203108We have here the definitive manifesto of the 21st century
>>544203114Capitalism is outdated in 2026?
I guess I'm a reactionary socialist now; the thing that always have bothered me about capitalism is how it tramples culture for profit. Does your culture, unlike those in the vicinity, value X, but not Y? Fuck you then cuz the local burguois will promote Y anyways to increase his potential target audience. Sounds familiar?
Modern systems are so complicated that it's not a correct dichotomy anymore.
>>544203118so you think having the members of the democratic socialists dictate what culture will be allowed? if u like the "culture" that's coming out of universities then you will love culture under socialism.
>>544203118culture is definitely better when the politburo decides what is legal to be published, comrade
>>544203108Socialism is when there is no private property. Most forms of socialism have no market either. The exception is market socialism in which trade unions which are independent of the state sell their labor to it.Supposedly communism is like socialism, but with no state. Communism has, in fact, never been tried. It can never be tried because it is impossible in a society of modern scale. It is only possible in a household and even then some would argue that households were traditionally dictatorships with the head of the household (paterfamilias) as dictator and the women and children as basically serfs.
>>544203118https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/adorno/1944/culture-industry.htmHere's the theory to go with this
>>544203123Might as well read the whole of Dialectic Of Enlightenment since it is one of the most important books from the 20th century
>>544203120I don't have an answer for that, all I know is that we don't see "academic culture" from universities in the middle east or asia. I may be wrong, but I atrribute the subversive trash coming out of unis to libertarianism
>>544203120American DSA is not orthodox Marxist, they are progressive liberals and social democrat reformists who serve as accepted opposition for capital. They frequently dismiss class critique as "reductionist" and are focused on entryism within the Democratic Party or collaboration with identitarian movements that are recuperated by capital
>>544203126Im a dues paying member that regularly goes to meetings and I hate almost everyone involved.The only reason I stay is because 3 other members actually read and they are the only people in my area that read anything.Most of of the shitters are idpol "leftists" that dont know what socialism is and just suck Mamdanis zionist cock.I hope someday a Marxist Leninist group exists that I can read more with, until them I am stuck with the shitter Leftists.To all anons if you want to learn about this start with Wage Labor and Capital by Marx. Its free on the Marxists internet archive.
>>544203125well then ur kind of dumb
>>544203125u don't see it because their schools are trash
>>544203127>hope someday a Marxist Leninist group exists that I can read more withYou'd be arrested for that
>>544203130I just want people that are interested in daialectal and material philosophy. These people know the most and have the best discussions about the topic by a long shot.
>>544203131most of those people have no clue about economics or finance. talking to them will actually make u more stupid.
>>544203132>economics or finance. Good. Politics and philosophy are higher topics than the minutes of money grubbry. Discussing finance is pointless when the objective is to critique fundamental assumptions about society
>>544203132Applying dialectical and materialist theory to economics seems pretty cogent. I don't see how talking to them makes on stupid. Talking with them one can resolve contradictions in their own and others thought.I dont think me reading Marx, Engels, Plekhanov, Lenin, Stalin, Mao on my own will make me stupider than reading and discussing it with them
>>544203134>my epic list of 20th century dictators!grow up dude
>>544203135Read what they wrote. Dont attack them, thats ad hominem. Marx Engels and Plekhanov never lead anything.
>>544203136>thats ad hominemAre you new here? You are literally talking to the resident board retard. The word "dictator" should've given you a clue.
>>544203136
>>544203128>>544203129now you sound like a redditor: "liberals are just smarterr"
>>544203122You shouldn't say this kind of thing out loud because it just means you don't know what you're talking about. Socialism has no issue with private ownership of property. What socialism opposes is private ownership of the means of production. Since it's unlikely that you know the difference let me give you an example -- in a socialist society you can own your car and your house and you can choose how to invest your money. But you cannot own a factory or a farm. This is because private ownership of those kinds of things has overwhelmingly been a nontrivial method of exploitation, and little more than that. Things like factories or farms or railroads can still be operated in a hierarchical and competitive manner (but don't have to be), the key difference is that the profits are distributed in some planned manner, rather than the ownership segment taking all of it and only then determining how little they can disburse to keep the engine running.That's what socialism is. Having a meaningful day in how much you make for the work you do.
>>544203140>This is because private ownership of those kinds of things has overwhelmingly been a nontrivial method of exploitation, and little more than that.citation from reputable peer reviewed source?
>>544203140>invest your money.Where would you even invest your money if means of production are not privately owned? Not that I want the Socialist world to be one where the need to "grow" one's wealth dictate life. Just asking.
>If before this we got with our value of labour into a vicious circle, we now surely have driven straight into an insoluble contradiction. We searched for the value of labour, and we found more than we can use. For the labourer, the value of the 12 hours’ labour is 3 shillings; for the capitalist, it is 6 shillings, of which he pays the workingman 3 shillings as wages, and pockets the remaining 3 shilling himself. According to this, labour has not one but two values, and, moreover, two very different values!
>>544203140Private property (means of production) is different from personal property. I know that which is why I said private property and not personal property.
>>544203143marx is so cringe man
>>544203145Riveting critique and eye opening analysis
Even for people who have existential problems with Marxism or fears of socialism, the hysterical reaction against any sort of left leaning candidate should make one think. The sworn enemies of the bourgeoisie are Marx, not the supposedly anti-system Trump. Zionists currently are all in on the GOP and shrieking over the DSA.
>>544203147Donald Trump played a crucial role in the advance of the left in the United States by destabilizing the liberal order and slowing the advance of the imperialist proxy war in Ukraine. Like it or not, a Kamala Harris victory would have benefited only neoliberalism and fascism. Trump embodies fascism in its rawest form. as opposed to a more insidious type of fascism, and is laying bare its flaws even to the least informed observer or to those previously captivated by him. Trump’s failure represents capitalism’s inability to preserve itself and the failure to demonstrate that fascism is a credible alternative following the evident failures of right-wing populism. This allows the left to reposition and exploit a more radicalized base. Harris would have instituted a management regime that reinforced traditional US propaganda which would have been accepted uncritically by the masses, and a war with Iran would have not only occurred as it has now, but would have been combined with an escalation in Ukraine, leading to a two-front war on behalf of the right-wing coalition forces of Israel (settler colonial ethnoreligious nationalists) and Ukraine (pro-Western liberals, ethnonationalist Banderites). I do not defend Trump as a man or his regime, but his presence has been undoubtedly useful for the left compared to moderate Democrats.
>>544203148Modern Russia isn't socialist at all. Ukraine is compromised but Putin is a fascist, not our friend
>>544203111Life is a struggle for survival, zoomie. Humans are not exempt. Now get a job, you lazy fuck.
>>544203123
>>544203148I completely agree anon.Theres a reason people call him DJPON Don
>>544203145You should meet his followers.
>>544203149>Putin is a fascistAnd America is not? Russia helps BRICS, Russia tears down the Western imperialists, which is the only way we are getting out of this
>>544203148The communist obsession with defending the imperialism of capitalist Russia may seem like a warped case of blind nostalgia for the Soviet Union and the politics of the cold war at first glance, but really it is just the perfect expression of everything putrid underlying the psychology of the communist: namely, spiteful, destructive hatred of all that is good and beautiful.The West is the most successful, free, rich, technologically sophisticated, and prosperous civilisation that has ever existed on the face of the planet. Russia, partly because of its communist past, partly because of its half-bred Asiatic character, has always been a land of squalid, sordid misery. It has adopted a martial attitude against us and a despotic politics because of its deeply felt inferiority, which the communist also deeply relates to.Even in this one aspect where Russia excels, namely war, it is not through superiority of courage, tactics, sophistication, or scientific knowledge, that it manages to exist as an ever-present threat to us, but rather through the cruelty of its officer ranks and the numerosity of its population. And even then, as the Napoleonic wars, the first and second world wars, and the war in Ukraine, show, it can only ever win by the skin of its teeth.The war in Ukraine is no "imperialist proxy war". Ask any Eastern European nation which has integrated with the West after starving under communist Russian rule whether they feel good about their decision to turn away from the Orient. Finland, the Baltic States, Poland, all have far superior economies, quality of life, life expectancy, and so on. There is no need for any imperialist action to turn a nation away from the dark grasp of Orkish Russia and towards the splendorous light of the West; it is self-evidently in the self-interest of each nation to do so.
>>544203154>eastern imperialist "tears down" western imperialistsYes, that's generally how imperialists operate.
>>544203155holly fucking trvke
>>544203155Calling the Ukraine "good and beautiful" is certainly a take.>The West is the most successful, free, rich, technologically sophisticated, and prosperous civilisation that has ever existed on the face of the planetThat peak you are mourning has long since passed, and today you are living in a nihilistic hellscape of only greed, lies, domination. >Ask any Eastern European nation which has integrated with the West after starving under communist Russian rule>Polling from past decades and comparative studies show high levels of regret or positive sentiment toward the socialist period, with figures reaching roughly 81% in Serbia and 79% in Armenia in regional assessments >Past Pew and regional studies noted that majorities (such as 72% in Hungary and 62% in Ukraine in specific legacy/transition metrics) reported feeling worse off or nostalgic for pre-1991 conditions during periods of economic hardship >In tracking polls by outlets like Der Spiegel, 57% of East Germans defended the former German Democratic Republic (GDR). >In earlier structural polls, an overwhelming 90% of respondents from the former DDR stated they felt they had better overall social protections under the socialist system than under contemporary capitalism >A comprehensive study by the National Center for Parliamentary Studies found that 32.6% of Bulgarians would choose to live in the communist era (1946–1989) if given the choice. This surpassed the 28% who explicitly preferred the post-1989 democratic era >In historical Pew and regional transition tracking metrics, up to 63% of Bulgarians answered that ordinary people were "worse off" under the modern system compared to the stability experienced under state socialism. Only 13% viewed modern life as an improvement for the average citizen
>>544203158
>>544203158These are boomers who miss their youth. When they had the chance to end communism they immediately took it. Sure you have some bitter burnouts who didn't make it or had a family member in the party or whatever else, but it doesn't mean the countries were truly better off. >DDROssis are lazy shits.
>>544203142The term "invest" has to change its meaning a context where you aren't allowed to privately own capital generating devices, so your point is definitely fair. Socialist "investment" in my mind would be things like education that's not related to your work or charitable causes or public projects that improve your local community. Things which provide long term security and happiness benefits to you like the money from a capitalist investment does, primarily, in our society.
>>544203144Private property and means of production are not the same thing and you know it.
>>544203155Its not ao much supporting Russia as it is fighting western imperialism.Putins Russia might be vulgar capitalists but they our nowhere near the imperial power the west is. Putin is also the most progressive leader the nation had outside of the USSR
Human relationships are too complex to be boiled down to only two economic systems, any serious and intelligent person knows this very well
>>544203126No matter how much you repeat this, they do not understand.
>>544203155>The war in Ukraine is no "imperialist proxy war".Yes it is. And the aim is not even proxy war against russia, but to stop the Berlin-Moscow axis. Ukrainians were favorable to the west, because they did not know what they were getting into. Debt, LGBT degeneracy, globalist agenda. They had this archaic notion of west=good quality of life, liberty, democracy. Russia = Stalin, bolshevic authoritarianism and holodomor. But that was a past-oriented and obsolete view, even when the ukrainian war started. See the western population who have a more and more negative view of the west. Ukrainians had a very positive view on the west when the ukrainian war started, but the paradox is that the west already had a shifting toward a negative view from themselves. The sad truth is that the ukrainian people will only realize what they got into in the future when it's too late. Then they will realize it was all a mistake, and that they only exchanged a domination for a more subversive domination.
>>544203160I know two people IRL who lived in USSR. One say it was not nearly as terrible as the west describe it. The other, when asked if it is better now, or before, cannot give a straight answer.
>>544203166>They had this archaic notion of west=good quality of life, liberty, democracy. Russia = Stalin, bolshevic authoritarianism and holodomorHow is this an outdated view? All of Russia's previous vassal states that have now integrated with the West have experienced massive upswings in quality of life and economic growth. Even a small nation like Lithuania (where I'm from) that has no resources now has TWICE the GDP per capita of Russia.Russia and communism have only ever brought backwardness, bread lines and suffering.> Debt, LGBT degeneracy, globalist agendaMuh buzzwords. >>544203158I said countries that have integrated with the West, not fucking panslavist Serbia. All of the countries you name are shitholes compared to the West and all of their populations dreams about living in Germany because their economies were fucked by communism. This applies to where I'm from too.
>>544203168>Even a small nation like Lithuania (where I'm from) that has no resources now has TWICE the GDP per capita of Russia.Your little shitholes actually used to mean something in the Soviet Union. Now they are just another vassal of ZOG whose population would cease to exist in the coming decades.
Hi visitors. The solution is in the works where 2 systems merge, much like China.>Larry McDonald, a Democratic U.S. Congressman from Georgia and chairman of the John Birch Society, was a anti-communist who frequently accused powerful elites of orchestrating a "New World Order". He claimed the Rockefeller family and their allies were working to establish a one-world government that merged "SUPERCAPITALISM and COMMUNISM" under elite control, often citing the United Nations, Council on Foreign Relations and Trilateral Commission as key instruments of this conspiracy.>McDonald was killed on September 1, 1983, when Soviet fighter jets shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007https://youtu.be/RXIdbSKRu0A
