>Shroud of TurinWtf? I just did a massive deep dive on this. Christ was literally real and resurrected and every single attempt to "refute" it is a massive cope argument that requires more suspension of disbelief than simply accepting it was the resurrection.>covered in blood samples showing signs of someone who suffered extreme torture and blood loss>feet covered in Jerusalem limestone>embedded pollen from area of Levant>linen samples matching ones found at Siege of Masada ~60 AD>2 micrometer thick 3 dimensional imprint on topmost surface layers of linen, that when topographized literally just look like a photograph, far beyond the capabilities of any Renaissance, much less Antiquity, artist to recreate>entire history of Shroud lines up with history of Image of Edessa from the classical east, right down to obscure, tiny details such as specific patterns of burn holes appearing in other Orthodox renditions in the 11th, 9th, earlier centuries. refuting the initial dating to medieval times>early fragments of apocryphal writings quoted by Church Fathers as far back as 200 AD reference Jesus's burial shroud actually being given and moved around by the Church before being hidden and kept safe, establishing historical awareness/precedent of the artifact>the earliest Orthodox icons of Jesus line up exactly with the facial features of the Shroud; the Orthodox icon still used today of Jesus's face lines up exactly with when the original image of Edessa was taken out of its hiding spot and made public again in 554 >wound up being publicly known in France a century and a half after a Crusader reported seeing the shroud of Jesus in Constantinople before it disappeared in the sacking of 1204>only recreated a few years ago, in a laser lab where an incredibly intense, short burst of laser/radiation copied the already known information from the shroud to copy it>God literally took a photograph in 1st century AD so His Church would have His face for the icons
>shroud of turin bullshit yet again>/x/
>>544355776We are not joking or exaggerating when we post about the synagogue of satan, anon
>>544355834>>shroud of turin bullshit yet againHow was it made you fucking retard?
>>544355776they found INDIAN dna on the cloth.was jesus really a jeetsus?
>>544355853They used a paintbrush and pee i saw it on the history channel
The Shroud is the most important item in human history. Even if you don't believe it's real, how was it made? For hundreds of thousands of years humans have been making "things". From the earliest stone tools, the clothes, the computers, to buildings, to cars, etc, etc.And scientists can break down how every one of those items was made. Every. One....EXCEPT: The Shroud of Turin. Scientists don't know how the image got on the Shroud.
>>544355776All the too much circumstantial evidence to ignore isn’t a strong argument, stick to or at least lead with the unexplainable phenomenon, god bless
>>544355776Forgery
>>544355926>They used a paintbrush and pee i saw it on the history channelNope. No brush strokes found. Try again.
>>544355984>ForgeryHow was it made?
>>544355921>they found INDIAN dna on the cloth.>was jesus really a jeetsus?No, it only proves that the cloth made it through the silk road, making it even more authentic.
>>544355776lol
>>544355986They used a naked guy covered in pee paint?
>if god fake then why spooky bedsheet
>>544355776the shroud of turin was created in year 1300, and if were actually placed on someone's head like that the image of their face would be warped.
>>544356043>They used a naked guy covered in pee paint?Nope. Try again. Science can't explain how the image got on the cloth.
It's a picture of a Jew if real, if fake it's some shit faked 500 years ago or shit as carbon dating has suggested. Either way, OP loses and is a retard.
>>544355926the shroud of urine
>>544356063*1314
>>544356076I don't think it's nice to be making jokes like that
>>544356063>the shroud of turin was created in year 1300How was it made.>and if were actually placed on someone's head like that the image of their face would be warped.Not true. You saw that stupid webm where a cloth like modern cotton drapes over the face. The Shroud cloth is stiffer linen and it would have almost been like putting a piece of cardboard paper over someone's face lying down
>>544356076https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qgx8EWj0P0
>>544356084you worship piss
>>544356109>How was it made.By nailing Jaques de Molay to a door
>>544355853Who cares. I can tell you how it wasn't made. By being wrapped around someone's face. That image is picture perfect and not distorted at all.
>>544356071if you have presupposed an answer it's dishonest to ask the question nvm that though i don't give a fuck about historical proofs as they most often don't meet the minimum requirements to call trueyou got a working scientific proof? i do like me some testing
>>544356109The Shroud cloth is stiffer linenThat makes it worse there should be all kinds of lines and creases in the face AND it should be distorted.Its a fucking 2d image, the mock up just points out what anyone who has tried to capture a 3d face on a 2d object knows the proportions come out fucked up.
>>544356179>Who cares.Ok retardSee >>544355966> By being wrapped around someone's face. See:Not true. You saw that stupid webm where a cloth like modern cotton drapes over the face. The Shroud cloth is stiffer linen and it would have almost been like putting a piece of cardboard paper over someone's face lying down
>>544356186>if you have presupposed an answer it's dishonest to ask the questionNo it isn't. I want the question answered.>you got a working scientific proof? i do like me some testingScience can't prove how the image got on the cloth. They say the image is best replicated like putting a human wrapped in a cloth through an MRI machine
>>544356109Yep, go to your bed right now and pull the comforter over your face. How much does it wrap around you? Not much. In fact, if you covered your face in paint and laid it on yourself, you'd get a mostly 'flat' image like the one on the shroud.I was an atheist, and I remember seeing an anon (probably 10 years ago) post interesting facts about the shroud. Even as an avowed atheist, I thought the facts were very interesting. Maybe that post planted the seed that made me change my mind years later?I'm now inclined to think the shroud is likely a real relic from the crucifixion.
>>544356226>That makes it worse there should be all kinds of lines and creases in the face AND it should be distorted.So when the face is wrapped in cloth it's distorted, but when it's not wrapped in cloth it's distorted? >Its a fucking 2d image, the mock up just points out what anyone who has tried to capture a 3d face on a 2d object knows the proportions come out fucked up.Some scientist tried to do it and succeeded by about 90%. But before they did that people were screaming THE FACE WOULD LOOK ALL WIDE AND STRETCHED OUT
>>544356109>How was it made.irrelevant>Not trueyes true, its a bad forgery.
>>544355776Christians have completely lost their minds, what a worthless religion.
>>544356340>irrelevantSure thing. >science can't prove how Jesus got onto a cloth>IRRELEVANTSAD>yes true, its a bad forgery.So bad that it's can be duplicated today and is one of a kind.You aren't operating in reality.
>>544356250>The Shroud cloth is stiffer linen and it would have almost been like putting a piece of cardboard paper over someone's face lying downLinen absorbs moisture, anon. The shroud was used to cover the face of a torture victim, in 12th century France.Their face was covered in a mixture of sweat & blood, probably dirt and grease as well, as the linen was placed on them. What happens to sweat & blood and grease after the moisture evaporates from it, anon? Fucking midwit
>>544356360>Christians have completely lost their minds, what a worthless religion.Shroud fake900 genders and men getting pregnant real
>>544355776>fake scam indian DNA cloth, to fool kike sub religion, created by kikes, saying it makes kikes seethe.Every. Single. Time. With you blood cultist child/rapist/mutilators.
>>544356109>we've wrapped his body in linen and laid him in the tomb>now just let me balance this board on his nose and we'll be done here
>>544356399>Linen absorbs moisture, anon. The shroud was used to cover the face of a torture victim, in 12th century France.>Their face was covered in a mixture of sweat & blood, probably dirt and grease as well, as the linen was placed on them.>What happens to sweat & blood and grease after the moisture evaporates from it, anon? Fucking midwitYou are saying words but I don't see the relation to the Shroud. Either explain in detail or go away.
>>544356403no one here believes that Moshe
>>544355776Not worshipping a jew simple as.
>>544356412>>fake scam indian DNA cloth, to fool kike sub religion, created by kikes, saying it makes kikes seethe.fake scam kike covid vax and gender theory, to fool atheists, created by kikes, saying it makes atheists seethe
>>544356425>You are saying words but I don't see the relation to the Shroud. Either explain in detail or go away.If you let linen absorb blood and sweat and then allow that linen to dry, it stiffens. How do you not know this?
>>544356335>So when the face is wrapped in cloth it's distorted, but when it's not wrapped in cloth it's distorted?I have no idea what you are saying when its 3 dimensional it looks right, when you stretch it to be in a 2d plane all of the bumps make wide spaces take up a disproportional amount of space Think about his hair, if it was draped down too it shouldn't it be extended far out to show all of the parts of his head under the cloth?>Some scientist tried to do it and succeeded by about 90%. But before they did that people were screaming THE FACE WOULD LOOK ALL WIDE AND STRETCHED OUTk point to it
>>544356071Unequivocal cope
>>544356390It is irrelevant.PICTURE THIS: you come into my store, you try to purchase some goods, you hand me a $100 bill with Donald Trumps face on it. In most ways it looks like a piece of legal tender but it has Donald Trump's fucking face on it. I tell you I can't accept this, this isn't a real $100 bill. You ask me to prove it, you demand that I explain how the forgery was done, you tell me that It looks just like a real $100 bill. I can't do any of those things but I'm still not accepting the $100 with donny's face on it.
>>544356433>no one here believes that MosheSure thing. Let me guess, you are among the 10% of atheists that didn't get the vax? And you didn't vote Kamala like 75% of other atheists.Math is hard.
>Ye Olde Jacques deMolay cloth ornament againcool
>>544356464>If you let linen absorb blood and sweat and then allow that linen to dry, it stiffens.So what? So sweat and blood stiffens an already stiff cloth from 2000 years ago?
>>544356475keep strawmanning you fucking kike shill
>>544356250It's not stiff enough to remain planar, which it would have to be to avoid turning the face into a funhouse mirror.
>>544356437>>544356044>>544355834“Canadians” getting randomly defensive. Sus.
>>544356473>. I can't do any of those thingsYOU can't, but a scientist or a monetary expert can you fucking retard. You can explain to me that Donald Trump's face isn't on any currency, the $100 bill doesn't feel or smell real, it doesn't pass the $100 bill marker checker, etc, etcShow the Shroud to a scientist and they shrug (or come up with 17 different theories).I can't believe this was your comparison. Fucking retard.
>>544356494>keep strawmanning you fucking kike shillKeep voting for tranny lovers.
Jesus came to me in a dream last night and called me a nigger
>>544356551you don't believe in science, fuck off.
>>544356513>It's not stiff enough to remain planarHow often have you touched 2000 year old linen?
>>544355776Yeah idk, I want to believe but it would make more sense if the image were distorted. I think the claim is that the image was set in the cloth by an intense flash of light, no? If that was the case, even if the cloth was thick and draped flat as once could, I dont really get how it would look like that, as if the light only projected directly forward.
>>544356581>you don't believe in science, fuck off.Sure thing>Me: Science, explain how the Shroud was made>Science: We don't know.>Me: Ok, thanks for being honestNow you>You: Science, how as the Shroud made>Science: We don't know.>You: REEEEEEEE
>>544356574pwnd
>>544356548Hindu jeets have flooded this board and are 80 percent of the anti christ posting these days. I unironically miss the days 10 years ago when we had actual white people who were pagan larping. Despite the silliness of their larp they were at least white and had some level of intellectual ability and interest in conversation about philosophy. The canadian hindu poojeets just shit out the worst diarrhea imaginable as you'd expect.
>>544356492>So sweat and blood stiffens an already stiff cloth from 2000 years ago?It's not 2000 years old, your sources are retarded. It's more like 700 or so years old according to every test every done on the physical cloth itself. Not to mention the bias beliefs of midwit christians are irrelevant on the historicity of anything, frankly. >So what?So if you care about what's actually true and verifiable, then you wont find any compelling reason to believe that the Shroud of turin has any connection to Jesus.We know the fabric isn't even that old. We know that blood and sweat leave behind a crusty residue after they dry. Jesus isn't required to explain anything here, and doesn't fit the facts when you try.
>>544356487>>Ye Olde Jacques deMolay cloth ornament againThe wounds on the Shroud are medically accurate to a guy who was crucified and tortured with Roman razor whips.
>>544356620It's a later day forgery lol. Also a 3D body does not make a 2D image. Your facebook bible groups lied to you
>>544355776>literally just look like a photograph, far beyond the capabilities of any Renaissance, much less Antiquity, artist to recreateNope, they had camera obscuras back then, they predate Da Vinci and he described them, their mechanisms, and the history that goes back to antiquity in detail in sketches the Codex Atlanticus.
>>544356652>It's more like 700 or so years old according to every test every done on the physical cloth itself.Then how was it made?> according to every test every done on the physical clothI agree, but there are discrepancies>cloth was affected by smoke damage in a fire and smoke damage is known to throw off carbon dating tests>along the way some people tried to fix rips in the cloth by adding new material, this material might have been involved in the carbon testing.>So if you care about what's actually true and verifiable, then you wont find any compelling reason to believe that the Shroud of turin has any connection to Jesus.If it's a forgery, why would the forger put dirt from the Middle East on it? If it's a forgery, why would the forger put the blood on FIRST? That's like building a house attic first and working your way down. Why do that? Did the forger know that we would be able to test this shit in 700 years?
>>544356548>“Canadians” getting randomly defensive. Sus.
>>544356696>It's a later day forgeryWhat does this mean?>Also a 3D body does not make a 2D image.You assume the Shroud is wrapped in a modern cotton cloth.>memeflagShow flag or last (you)
>>544356659>are medically accurateSure, bud, sure...check your sources more carefully.
>>544356650>Hindu jeets have flooded this board and are 80 percent of the anti christ posting these days. I unironically miss the days 10 years ago when we had actual white people who were pagan larping. Despite the silliness of their larp they were at least white and had some level of intellectual ability and interest in conversation about philosophy. The canadian hindu poojeets just shit out the worst diarrhea imaginable as you'd expect.
>>544356778>>544356755Prime example here. Enjoy the filter Ranjesh.
>2000 yearold cloth supposedly>its totally jesus bro
>>544355776It was not recreated with lasers. That's not true at all. A similar effect on a miniscule scale was created. STURP (secular atheist scientists) estimated it would take 38 billion-38 trillion watts of energy to produce the entire shroud. That is equivalent to all of modern civilization's eletricity directed at a single point simultaneously. You also forgot to mention.>3d photograph shows nails in wrists/ankles>hundreds of lashes>broken legs>spear wound in side>helmet of thorns It is not only undeniably supernatural, but perfectly consistent with the injuries described in the gospels.
>>544356777>Sure, bud, sure...check your sources more carefully.Check yours. If they weren't medically accurate that's the first thing skeptics would scream.
>>544355776Why would this make Jesus seethe?
>>544356179Concession accepted.
>>544355966>And scientists can break down how every one of those items was made. Every. One....EXCEPT: The Shroud of Turin.Nope, everything historical beyond the point of photography is mostly speculation, they don't know how many old things were built like The Pyramids, The Sphinx, Machu Picchu, Stonehenge, Easter Island Head, Kailasa Temple, etc, etc, etc.
>>544356829>Check yoursI checked yours already. You really should take my advice here.
>>544355921High quality linen clothes like the one the wealthy Joseph of Arimathea bought when he prepared Jesus for His burial were made exclusively in India. Every cope attempt to disprove in it further reinforces its authenticity. It's the ultimate smug arrogant idiot destroyer. I love it for this reason.
>>544356818>perfectly consistent with the injuries described in the gospels.Gee i wonder why
>>544355776its fake, for starters its a 2d painting, not a 'shroud'so are Dead Sea Scrolls.how do we know the DSS are fake? among other things, exactly zero similar "exposed to air in a man-hole cave" similar parchment material from Roman, Greek, Egyptian sources has ever been found, for a few obvious reasons.
Mel gibson said it was a nuclear level god light that made it like a photocopy or something
>>544356853>The Pyramids, The Sphinx, Machu Picchu, Stonehenge, Easter Island Head, Kailasa Temple,Are you retarded. They know how these were built.
>>544355966>hundreds of thousands of yearsLmaoEarth is 6,000. Get off the masonic mind poison, brother.
>>544356818>estimated it would take 38 billion-38 trillion watts of energy to produce the entireOr a bunch of dudes equipped with a great art studio of the day, lots of time and playing the long game for a troll. By Occam's razor, the later is the case.
>>544355984>Forgerynot really, just a painting that later got "up sold".
>>544355974>supernatural 2,000 year old 3d negative photograph>"circumstantial evidence"Bot or illiterate?
> STURP (secular atheist scientists) estimated it would take 38 billion-38 trillion watts of energy to produce the entire shroud. so jesus bursts out of his tomb in a 6 gorillion jiggawatt explosion but somehow a cotton sheet is able to survive this totally intact, only leaving behind an (undistorted) image of a man's face on it.>but it was a miracle, that's why the cloth survivedso why even bother calculated the amount of energy required in the first place if you're going to tell yourself whatever you want to hear? Also, you're mexican.
>>544356861>I checked yours already.What does that mean?Also:https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3638&context=lnq" I would have to say that deathoccurred by asphyxia due to crucifixion, "
>>544356918christkikes have to lie about everything, not just their jewish religion
>>544356942>just a paintingNope, not a painting.
>>544356743>If it's a forgery, why would the forger put dirt from the Middle East on it? If it's a forgery, why would the forger put the blood on FIRST? That's like building a house attic first and working your way down. Why do that? Did the forger know that we would be able to test this shit in 700 years?You're asking me why someone would have an incentive to lie about some 'amazing historical artifact' connected to the most popular religion on planet Earth? Do I really have to spell that one out for you? You're using the word "forgery" here, I am not. You seem to have some facts mixed up.The cloth is real linen, the blood and dirt is really from a human. France - where it was discovered, is a real place, at around 1350.Why is there no mention of it being there in the bible? Why was it discovered in a place that Jesus never went to? The obvious answer is that it's not connected to Jesus at all. Jesus wasn't French and never took a vacation to Paris, obviously. The apostles who wrote the New Testament never went to France either.
>>544355776You're a fucking retard dude. The whole shroud thing is the easiest retard test of all time.
>>544356942It has been proven conclusively it contains no trace of dye, pigments, or ink. It has anatomically accurate injuries to the point of microscopic muscle contractions. "Paintings" are also not .0002mm thick and only on the topical surface of a single cell. Go research and actually read about a topic instead of pulling absurd pseudointellectual one-liners out of your ass. You demonstrate only your complete ignorance.
>>544356986>christkikes have to lie about everything,What's the lie? Be specific.
>>544355984>"muh forgery">can't explain how it was forgedNot an argument and intellectually pathetic. Your cope is matched only by your seethe, demon.
>>544356959>jesus bursts out of his tomb in a 6 gorillion jiggawatt explosion but somehow a cotton sheet is able to survive this totally intact,Lmao can someone AI this upThis is the dumbest con ever. Still vant believe people defend this fucking thing
>>544357027just blow your brains out jew
>>544355776>>544355834the creators of the shroud were clearly very dedicated to the larp and had access to vast resources,- but they lacked the basic spatial reasoning of having to actually place it on a body-mockup instead of having it placed on flat ground during the creation process.in short; The shroud is a painting on a cloth passed off as a shroud, because the purpose was only to create a relic sophisticated enough to fool retards, just like the forests-worth of wood found in the ocean of "authentic shards of the true cross"
>>544357056>>544357058You guys are being so mean
>>544356044>2,000 year old negative 3d photograph on fine imported linen burial cloth fit for an ancient King>"muh spooky bedsheet"satan is becoming increasingly desperate in this thread.
>>544357084who created hell? god or satan?
>>544357057The point is that the only way to "recreate it" would be through supernatural/physics defying means. Only God would be capable of achieving this. That's why it's a powerful piece of physical evidence.Are there ANY non indian canadians left? Not even joking. I refuse to believe any of you are white people at this point. I haven't seen an actual indian flag in a suspiciously long time but am seeing the same tier of posts from a suspiciously high number of canadian flags for a nation with the same population as Texas roughly.
>>544356063Did the creator also invent time travel? Or why does it have over 250 points of geometric symmetry with the mandylion of edessa and other images created several centuries prior to that? (60 points of symmetry is enough to identify/convict someone for murder)
>>544357058You are worshiping a rag with a picture of a jew on it, faggot. You should question the choices in life that got you to where you are.
>>544357015>been proven conclusivelyCan we see the proof?
>>544357109one christkike meltdown after another with you lol
>>544357006>Do I really have to spell that one out for you?Yes, spell it out.>You're using the word "forgery" here, I am not. ?If the Shroud is only 700 years old and not real, it's a "forgery" (as in someone made it) you fucking retard.>The cloth is real linen, the blood and dirt is really from a human. France - where it was discovered, is a real place, at around 1350.You are playing really stupid now>"THIS MONA LISA ISN'T A FORGERY, IT USES REAL PAINT AND A REAL CANVAS AND WAS MADE IN ITALY A REAL PLACE"Fucking faggot.>Why is there no mention of it being there in the bible? Bible isn't perfect, nor is it a history book. Suddenly atheists are saying "not mentioned in the Bible" when it suits their needs.>Why was it discovered in a place that Jesus never went to? Because the Shroud got moved around you fucking moron. It had DIRT on it from where JESUS died.>Jesus wasn't French and never took a vacation to Paris, obviously. The apostles who wrote the New Testament never went to France either.You are a mental patient.
>>544356472>"m-muh cope">*still can't explain how it was created*Concession accepted.
>>544357010>The whole shroud thing is the easiest retard test of all time.Then how was it made?
>>544357106Hell isn't a separate place or area in time, it's what the presence of God feels like to the unrepentant. Heaven and Hell are the same "location". Read a book. Specifically, the Great Divorce by CS Lewis
>>544356281then it's just a random rag with a bad imagebring it back when it's proven to be anything more than thatthough even then if it's just an artefact on it's own then it proves there was once an effect not that magic/gods/ghosts/ect exist todaywhere is the method
>>544357068>; The shroud is a paintingNo it's not.
>>544357170what denomination teaches that?
/x/ bullshit, holy schizophrenic mental illness batman!
>>544356399The image is .0002mm thick and preserved only on the topical layer of a single cell. Furthermore, it has 250 poinrs of geometric symmetry with the Mandylion of Edessa and other images centuries older than that. Was the torture victim a time traveler? (60 points of symmetry is enough to identify/convict someone for murder)
>>544357175>then it's just a random rag with a bad imageThe image is so good they don't know how it got on the rag
>>544357196Orthodox Christianity. I can't speak for others, but this understanding dates back to the early centuries of Christian philosophy and is pretty well understood. Have you ever actually read into theology at all?
>>544356412Fine linen cloths in the ancient Levant were imported exclusively from India. Your attempt to disprove the Shroud further reinforces its authenticity and your argument is historically illiterate as well as intellectually pathetic.
>>544357142>Yes, spell it out.No, I'm not going to waste my time. You're too stupid to resonate with sound logic.>Because the Shroud got moved around you fucking moron. It had DIRT on it from where JESUS died.How do you know the dirt came from Jesus and not from the people moving it around?You're starting from a conclusion and working backwards with your reasons, then attacking anyone who provides reasons why your conclusion isn't verifiable. Now you're sperging out like an emotional moron.Brainrotten goycattle.
>>544357058>just blow your brains out jewTypical atheist.This how they get when talking about 900 genders.,
>>544357227nothing but lies out of you kikes. it's unreal
>>544356071Science can explain dozens of ways to explain how to project and embed images in cloth, they just can't definitely prove exactly how someone did a specific piece of cloth centuries ago.
>>544356418>putting a board on someone's face creates a .0002mm image on the topical layer of a single cell that secular atheists scientists estimate would require 38 billion-38 trillion watts of energy to reproduce with ultraviolet lasersHuh?
>>544357250>asks retarded question in an attempt to gotcha>gets legitimate answer about what classic Christian theology has always said on the topic>oh shit uh never heard that before you just made that up right?>no its pretty well understood educate yourself>Stop hecking lying you're making me look retarded!You are embarrassing.
>>544356464Sweat and blood create 3d negative photographs .0002mm thick on the topical surface of a layer of individual cells??
>>544355776https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kmhsD0C_mU
>>544357181the difference between dust and pigment, is wether you're using it to paint a picture or not.the shroud uses dust, pollen and materials relevant to Jesus' life as pigments, to paint his image. it is a very dedicated image with living pigments in many cases. on a FLAT linen. that is a painting.
>>544357234>No, I'm not going to waste my time.So why are you even posting right now? You lose.>How do you know the dirt came from Jesus and not from the people moving it around?They did ANALYSIS on the dirtAI junk:"Microscopic dirt and mineral particles found on the Shroud of Turin match the chemical fingerprint of limestone and soil from Jerusalem"You aren't looking at the FACTS>dirt from Jerusalem on Shroud>medically accurate wounds on Shroud, so if it's created, creator must be an anatomy expert>blood put on before the body imageYou are so SAD
>>544356335No scientist "succeeded by about 90%". That is complete fiction.
>>544357315>They did ANALYSIS on the dirtCan we see the analysis?
>>544357256>Science can explain dozens of ways to explain how to project and embed images in cloth,Yet for the Shroud they have no answer.
>>544356360Cool. How was the image created, then?
>>544357348They finger painted it?
>>544357303>qanon shaman Top tier migapedes on this
>>544357307>the shroud uses dust, pollenIt doesn't USE them, these things are just on the Shroud as they are on almost everything.>pigmentOnly for the "blood" which is theorized that someone added later for effect.The face and body is NOT painted on.
this is what AI says the man on the Shroud of Turin looked like
>>544357213....that doesn't follownot knowing the precise style and method doesn't make the geometry any less wrong if it was supposed to be a death shroud don't know the exact paints leo used in some of his portraits but it's only a mystery in specific it's painted, like the shroud of turin wasi don't know where this fractal depth and scorching with no brushstrokes shit comes fromlike if you are talking about the one in op's image it has brush strokes, rough kind of paint/inkdye used was identified via the pigmentit's a flat image of a stylized facetaken as a death mask and used to reverse engineer the head shape would result in something like an ultra skinny moai head
>>544357341i bet all these scientists that reviewed the shroud are all christians, right?
>>544356340>"A 2,000 year old negative 3d photograph .0002mm thick on a topical surface layer of individual cells that secular atheist scientists from STURP estimated would require 38 billion-38 trillion watts of energy to create is irrelevant, because it just is, okay!"Pure hysterical coping.
>>544357170The Great Divorce is a great book
Was the shroud pulled off the face of Jesus? No. Was the shroud uncovered in some archeological digsite? No.Did the shroud appear anywhere where the bible says Jesus walked during his lifetime? No.Where did the Shroud of Turin first appear? Lirey, France circa 1354, in a public town exhibition. Was the shroud ever seen before that point in time, in France? No>it's definitely Jesus! It's 2000 years old, we just never saw it appear anywhere in history until the 13th century for some reason (in France)! Erm ackshually you can't prove that it isn't 2000 years old because carbon dating gets messed up when things are burnt in a fire, but somehow we also know that it's 2000 years old for sure!You have to be a retard to come to this conclusion based on the facts available that we can examine & test. In other words typical Christian
>>544355776>shroud of turinit's fake though. jesus looked nothing like that.why do christians make shit up so much.
>>544356473>my irrelevant schizo fan fiction and false equivalency explains a 2,000 year old negative 3d photographLol. Lmao
Whether or not you believe the image is an authentic miracle or not, doesn't affect Christianity or your salvation at all. Personally I suspect it's an elaborate ruse made using an early photographic process, created specifically to fill the need for relics at the time. As Martin Luther said, if you took all the pieces of the True Cross you'd have enough wood to build Noah's Ark.
>>544357406>i bet all these scientists that reviewed the shroud are all christians, right?Nope. If they were why would they say the carbon dating goes back to 1300s?
>>544357341They have dozens of answers with no way to actually verify which one is actually true given it happened hundreds of years ago.
>>544357404>on't know the exact paints leo used in some of his portraits"Leonardo da Vinci used a specific Renaissance palette of natural pigments, metal oxides, and custom oil binders—such as cooked walnut or linseed oil infused with lead oxides"They could also tell that it was a PAINT.The Shroud isn't a PAINTED image.
>>544357478i'm confusedso you have read the report on the shroud of turin but you are still spouting shit said report disproved
>>544357478imagine finding 100% proof of jesus and not converting right away. i guess they weren't very convinced
Assuming OP isn’t outright lying about these supposed facts then he’s absolutely dunking on you lazy, sleepy skeptics
>>544355776
>>544357522christkikes are fucking liars
>>544357391Vincent Gallo is Jesus?
STOP.DID YOU KNOW WE HAVE AN ENTIRE BOARD WHERE YOU CAN LARP ABOUT 2000 YEAR OLD DEAD SANDNIGGER STORIES?>>>/x/
>>544357456>Where did the Shroud of Turin first appear? Lirey, France circa 1354, in a public town exhibition.So what?>Was the shroud ever seen before that point in time, in France? NoSo what? Artifacts are found/rediscovered sometimes.YOU are ignoring the FACTS:>dirt from Jerusalem on Shroud>medically accurate wounds on Shroud, so if it's created, creator must be an anatomy expert>blood put on before the body image
>>544356777>>544356659Actually, the Shroud depicts a man with a helmet of thorns, *unbroken legs (I meant to say his legs were not broken before I think accidentally typed broke because it's 2am), pierced in the side, hundreds of lashes on his back, and nails through his wrists and ankles, exactly consistent with the highly irregular specific details of His execution recorded in the gospels.
>>544355853Irrelevant time wasting question lol. We don't need to know
>>544357537lol about that....
>>544356696It's a 3d negative photograph, not a 2d image. >"It's a forgery" is not an argument. You cannot explain how it was made or supposedly forged. You're baselessly asserting demonstrably false and scientifically illiterate nonsense.
>>544357522>so you have read the report on the shroud of turin but you are still spouting shit said report disprovedWhat was disproved? The claim was 'the scientists were Christian" and I proved that claim wrong. I will go with the findings that the Shroud is only 700 years old, but there are additional things to consider:>cloth was affected by smoke damage in a fire and smoke damage is known to throw off carbon dating tests>along the way some people tried to fix rips in the cloth by adding new material, this material might have been involved in the carbon testing.And if it's 700 years old, how was it made? Science/artists/etc can replicated 100% of items that were made 700 years ago (except the Shroud)
>>544357542Kek that looks like the thinnest most flexible silk, almost water. Try it with coarse linen now. I can’t believe skeptics are actually convincing me the shroud is real
>>544356702>a camera obscura creates a .0002mm thick image on the topical surface of a layer of individual cells that secular atheist scientists from STURP estimated would require 38 billion-38 trillion watts of energy to produce.No.
>>544357559>2000 YEAR OLD DEAD SANDNIGGER STORIES?Take all your atheist tranny shit to /x/ as well.
>>544357170Presence of god to unrepentant is le magic lava
>>544356696I got a question how do you think we are communicating with each other? Smoke signs from a hilltop?
>>544356743>according to every test ever doneActually that was a singular carbon dating of an explicitly and notoriously repaired back cloth from where the artifact was damaged in the medieval era. Wide angle x-ray dating has proven the Shroud is from the 1st century. It has been compared to multiple fabrics verifiably from the same era. The single carbon-dating test you are refering to is ridiculed by the entire scientific community, even skeptics of the Shroud. The data regarding it was intentionally repressed and refused to be peer-reviewed for 30 years. They didn't even determine a single date. They established multiple different dates and averaged them out as well, highly amateurish, illegitimate, and fraudulent.
>>544357508>They have dozens of answers with no way to actually verify which one is actually true given it happened hundreds of years ago.There isn't a single item from 700 years ago that we can't recreate today....except for the Shroud.
>>544357619lol we can't even replicate some shit less than a hundred years oldtechniques are lost reinvented lost ect over and over across timemostly because cunts don't write shit down as they should, partially a greater infrastructure thing
>>544356403You won tranny
>>544355834>>544355776>>God literally took a photograph in 1st century AD so His Church would have His face for the iconswords of Jesus and more:>My Father is greater than I [Jesus]>To us there is but one God, the Father.”>do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.>I am with you only a little while longer, and then I am going to the One who sent Me.>In My Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?>Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped>You have heard how I said to you, I go away, and come again to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father: for my Father is greater than I.>I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.>Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.>I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.>But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins>For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.>and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.>I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.>I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God but Me. I will equip you for battle, though you have not known Me>Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
>>544356743Actually only a single fraudulent and discredited carbon dating of a repaired back cloth from a specific corner was carbon dated to that age. You are agreeing with someone who is wrong. Lol
>>544356475Vaxx is an act of love you kikeoid
>>544357647
its true. mention the jeet body pillow and watch all the jews seethe
Shroud!
>>544357729>lol we can't even replicate some shit less than a hundred years oldLike what?>techniques are lost reinvented lost ect over and over across timeLike what?>mostly because cunts don't write shit down as they should, partially a greater infrastructure thingDoesn't matter. Just because someone didn't write down the formula to a 19th century frozen dessert that was preserved, they can break down what it is and replicate it. They don't know what the Shroud is, and they can't duplicate it.
>>544357423The Shroud of Turin: Detailed Analysishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LZRfUkw2VU
>>544356938So their art studio had 38 billion watts of energy and ultraviolet lasers? Did you ride the short bus to school?
>>544355776For decades the biggest defender of the Shroud was a Jew, retard. Jews need people to be Christians in order to survive.
>>544356548>>544356650>>544356806
>>544357733>atheists #1 group to support trannies>atheists vote Kamala 75%, the most troon loving candidate ever>CHRISTIANS ARE THE REALLY TRANNY LOVERS, HERE'S A PICIf a Christian supports evolution does that mean Christians suddenly love Darwin?
>>544357753>Vaxx is an act of love you kikeoidChristians were the group least likely to take the vax in America. Atheists were the #1 group to take and trust it. Try again kike.
>>544357780Jupiter engines is a famous example
>>544357816>44 postsif your religion was even remotely believable you wouldn't be doing this
>>544356907It has been conclusively proven to contain no traces of dye, pigment, or ink. Skeptics of the Shroud do not even dispute or argue this. It is also a 3d negative photograph. You have no idea what you're talking about. You're an overconfident low IQ individual who watches too many podcasts and thinks he has something to say. This is absolutely pathetically illiterate and idiotic.
>>544357537It's like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Anyway there is no artifact that can confirm the essential truths of any religion, this is why they all require faith and belief.>>544357552That bastard outbid me on some Western Electric tube amps and stuff, but left me the radio which is what I really wanted. GE Mark II, first mains-powered radio ever to enter mass production. It still has all its tubes even, and they all work. One of those tubes is worth over $400 now. I'm sure it was him too.
>>544356595Was it 2000years old when placed on rabbi jeshua?
>>544357848>if your religion was even remotely believable you wouldn't be doing thisOh boy>you have x amount of le postsSAD
>>544357804>muh lazurs, muh gigawatts!Lol, no comment necessary.
>>544357837you fucking kikes lie like you breathe
>>544356959The reason they used ultraviolet lasers is because it had to be a massive release of light/energy without producing any hear. That's why it was not burned when His spiritual body ascended directly vertically through it during the glorious resurrection. You think you sound intelligent, but every thing you say is more idiotic than the last.
>>544357870>Was it 2000years old when placed on rabbi jeshua?What? No it was probably pretty new then. Fucking retard.
not to mention they literally caught the forger, and then kept paying people to fake miracles in its presence to try swindle $ out of goyimits crazy how the klaxons go off @ jidf hq whenever you mention this and they all start seethinghttps://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/turin358031
>>544357810>shoud science
>>544357892>you fucking kikes lie like you breatheSure thing"High Acceptance Rates: Surveys, such as data from Pew Research and related studies, show that 90% of atheists have received or plan to receive a COVID-19 vaccine, which is higher than most religious groups."
>>544357900heat* not hear. This is the entire unexplainable phenomenon/mystery of the object. You have no idea what you're talking about at all. Sit down, be quiet, and learn something, child. Adults are speaking.
>>544357903>not to mention they literally caught the forger,What was his name? How did he do it?
>>544356921Get off the kike mythology bro
>>544357900>body ascended directly vertically through it
>>544357902did he put it on before or after he got arrested with that naked kid?
>>544357863>That bastard outbid me on some Western Electric tube amps and stuff,Crazy shit...those racks in the pic, theater amps, could pay for a house at current prices...quite the trip to have the guy from Buffalo 66 bidding up old tube shit against you.
>>544357632You keep talking about extra coarse linen, but you do understand that when it was originally used it would have been the same linen as all the other linen and is only as coarse as it is because it has been ravaged by hundreds of years of light damage, oxidization and the general passage of time, right?
>>544357949the roped transjewish søylent gets me every time
>>544357164
>>544357968>You keep talking about extra coarse linenAI junk (I'm too tired to look more), so take it for what you will:Stiffness and Draping: Textile and sindonology studies note that the cloth's tight 3:1 twill structure causes it to be stiffer warpway than weftway. This directional stiffness affects how the linen drapes over a three-dimensional form.Support over Hollows: Observers and researchers studying the cloth's physics and imagery have noted that the linen exhibits structural properties allowing it to bridge or rest stiffly across natural hollows of the body (such as the areas between the chin, chest, abdomen, and hands).
>>544358004Still can't answer how it was made.
>>544357938Why didn't you just read the image and find out? Is it your general retardation or your programmer didn't design you to parse images?
>>544357810Unironically interesting example of God using jew to make an example>atheist jew mindbroken by Shroud of Turin>becomes religious as a result, still rejects Christ because jew>instead tries to use personal first hand evidence as a way to grift money>never actually realizes the gift that was given to him, only saw the shekels>dies rejecting the Creator despite having experienced what is probably the most undeniable firsthand evidence of ChristIncredible irony. Just shows you these people will never change. It's their curse.
>>544357006Nice fanfiction. How did a medieval French person invent 3d negative photography? Did he also invent time travel? Why does it has 250 points of geometric symmetry with the Mandylion of Edessa and other images centuries older than your claim? (60 points of symmetry can identify/convict a murderer)
>>544358045>Why didn't you just read the image and find out?I did. No mention of a name or how it was made. And why didn't they ask the guy?
>>544358040shouldve asked the forger when you caught him if you were so interested
>>544357903There were early Christian legends of a burial shroud or cloth with an image. The Image of Edessa and its copies, for instance, display Greek-style artistic influences and were certainly produced for the relic trade. Also these images were confused with the Shroud of Turin in accounts.>>544357965The radio I got still has like $3000 worth of tubes inside. Johnson tubes, the real early kind, you can't get those any more at all NOS, you have to find them and pray they still work and many were made without getters so they probably don't. I need to totally redo all the electronics other than the tubes for safety, last old gear I powered up started a fire lel. But the bidding was crazy on the amps. A while after this it was only by chance that I found an interview with him, with the photo above and others, and I SAW THE AMPS. I had saved a photo of them and they're the same amps.I'm just glad he left a scrap behind for the little guy. I think I only did pay about $400 for the radio which is pristine.
>>544358076>shouldve asked the forger when you caught him if you were so interestedOr maybe the entire story is bullshit. Suddenly atheists trust everything the Catholic Church says.
>>544358078no shit there were dozens of them circulating all over europe. its the church's izzat economy. 40 of them in france alone apparently.
>>544358025That doesn't acknowledge the issue at all, the issue isn't how it would react because of how coarse the shroud is now that it has been ravaged by hundreds of years of exposure, but about how the linen originally was when it was first made and in use.
>>544357841>Jupiter engines is a famous exampleIt can be made today, retard. They just don't have a motivation to do so. It would cost a fortune and better engines are in production. But they could do it if they had to.
>>544358096why would the deacon of the church who displayed the relic lie about catching the forger? lolmaybe you just fell in love with a jeet body pillow and dont want to admit it
>>544358117>but about how the linen originally was when it was first made and in use.It was a stiff linen, not some modern cotton cloth.
>>544358167>why would the deacon of the church who displayed the relic lie about catching the forger? lolBecause in different eras of the Catholic Church sometimes relics are embraced, sometimes others they are scorned. If this was a "scorning era" they would tell the people "the forger was caught, the Shroud isn't real!" Of course without a name or how they guy did the forgery (if he couldn't duplicate it, how would you know it was him), this story is worthless>jeet body pillowThe fact that the cloth came from the silk road only helps to prove its authenticity.
>>544358112Oh they had all kinds of stuff manufactured to bamboozle the faithful. Heck the Vatican's miraculous re-discovery of the old tombs of the early Saints and Apostles and Desciples in the Roman catacombs is an interesting topic too. It seems likely there were some, but the specific circumstances of their individual discoveries are mostly lost, the Church didn't conduct modern-style digs back in the what, 1500's when they started really digging and found that stuff.
>>544358073>No mention of a name or how it was made.Yes there is, there are numerous names mentioned and how they connect to the shroud and a basic description of the process of using clever sleight of hand.
>>544358224lol
>>544358229> there are numerous names mentionedThen which one did it?>a basic description of the process of using clever sleight of hand.WHAT? So a vague statement like this and science still can't prove how it was made.
>>544358242Sure thing>Uh, this guy said he did it, we won't release his name, nor ask him to duplicate it to prove it's really him who made it
>>544358262you're an absolute jewish clown
>>544358073these are great questions i would ask your local priest. why did they catch the forger and not bother to record his name? probably because there were dozens of these forgeries circulating all over europe. same reason they didnt record the names of the circumcised jewish children whose foreskins they sold to churches to pose as jewsus christ's, id imagine. because it wouldve implicated someone jewish, and christianity's whole reason for existing is running defense for jews
>>544358229bot post>>544358250that 'anon' is a bot
>>544358275>you're an absolute jewish clownAtheists suddenly don't need evidence. Is it any wonder you embrace the vax and 900 genders?
>>544357903This was a politically/financially motivated claim that occurred at the time, and there was never actually an official ruling by the church one way or the other, only an acknowledgement that a claim of forgey was levied against it.Arguments relying on this are retarded though, because what makes the Shroud really interesting (ie the photo negative in OP and depth stuff) was literally impossible to see or know about until many centuries later. To the naked eye the Shroud appears as a much less detailed and faded imprint so it would have been easy to dismiss as just some thing some guy threw together at the time.
>>544358282>why did they catch the forger and not bother to record his name?Because the story is bullshit. A NOTHING TO SEE HER FOLKS lie. You are willing to accept this vague explanation as truth is really fucking retarded.
>>544358304here he goes with the imaginary atheists now
>>544355921You say I am saar
>>544357560>So what?So Jesus was never in France. Are you fucking stupid? Why would a cloth put on the face of Jesus in Jerusalem be in France? The obvious answer is because it was never put on Jesus.>dirt from Jerusalem on ShroudSo what? You're making the assumption that nobody other than Jesus could have dirt from Jerusalem on their feet. Idiot>medically accurate wounds on Shroud, so if it's created, creator must be an anatomy expertNobody is disputing that the cloth was put on a wounded person. That doesn't prove the person it was put on was Jesus, retard.You're a moron who starts with the conclusion you want to be true, before you look at any evidence. Definition of brainrot
>>544358339>here he goes with the imaginary atheists nowSure thing, retard.
>>544358250The first name mentioned whose latin language letter is being describe in english by the second name mentioned who is talking about occurrences in the diocese of the bishop named as the third name which you could have already known if you just read the image instead of asking retarded questions that the image already answered.
>>544356044Heheheh
>>544358328>>544358309did he lie about paying people to fake miracles in its presence to try to swindle $ out of gullible goyim too?lol. lmao even
>>544358309Also this is another reason why the concept of it being a forgery is retarded. Whoever forged it would have had to meticulously put in an absurd amount of detail that literally no one would be able to know about or see until the advent of camera technology like 500 years later. If your goal was financial gain or fame in the 14th century you would probably try to make something a little more impressive/eye catching to people coming to see it than what the Shroud of Turin looks like under normal conditions.
>>544358285Your mom is a bot.
>>544358304not a great position to take when the entirety of your argument is a lack of evidence lolyou say we don't know how an image ended up on a rag? i can believe thatyou say this proves supernatural anything, i'm gonna call bullshit being that unless it's actively testable supernatural it proves nothing of the sortand if it isn't reproducible it also isn't good for anything
>>544358351>So Jesus was never in France.I never said he was. He didn't have to have gone to France for his burial cloth to end up there you fucking retard.>Why would a cloth put on the face of Jesus in Jerusalem be in France?Someone found it and wanted to sell it? France was the center of Europe dumb dumb.>So what? You're making the assumption that nobody other than Jesus could have dirt from Jerusalem on their feet. IdiotSo, why would a forger in France put dirt from Jerusalem on it? For what purpose?>Nobody is disputing that the cloth was put on a wounded person. That doesn't prove the person it was put on was Jesus, retard.Medical experts say the person died from crucifixion. And that the wounds were MEDICALLY ACCURATE to a person that was whipped with Roman razor whips.So now you are saying a body was in there? Just not Jesus? So the artists crucified and razor whipped someone to be accurate? WHAT?>reply 30 min laterSAD
why are christkikes like this. why do they insist on pushing jewish fairytales on people who don't want to hear it? why can't they just fuck off?
>>544358351>Jesus was never in FranceThe Shroud, if it is real, would be the same thing as the Mandylion/Image of Edessa, which is a known relic from the Byzantine Empire that disappeared from Constantinople after the sacking of 1204 by Latin Crusaders with a large contingent from France. It actually lines up remarkably well that it appeared there at the time it did.
>>544358373>The first name mentioned whose latin language letter is being describe in english by the second name mentioned who is talking about occurrences in the diocese of the bishop named as the third name which you could have already known if you just read the image instead of asking retarded questions that the image already answered.Still doesn't name the forger or how he did it. Give me his name right now and how he did it if it's in the image.
>>544358386>did he lie about paying people to fake miracles in its presence to try to swindle $ out of gullible goyim too?You lost so badly that you are trying to divert topics. SAD and DEFEATED.
>>544357076I think that telling you lies would be MORE mean
>>544358400>Whoever forged it would have had to meticulously put in an absurd amount of detail that literally no one would be able to know about or see until the advent of camera technology like 500 years later.Mischievous forgers put in excessive unnecessary work all the time, just look at things like the Voynich manuscript. Also, the camera obscura dates back to at least the BC era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_camerahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera_obscura
>>544357128As requested, here is the documented scientific data and formal source backing regarding the physical properties, image depth, and anatomical details of the Shroud of Turin.The most comprehensive direct examination of the cloth was conducted by the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) in 1978. The team consisted of over 30 high-level physicists, chemists, forensic pathologists, and engineers from institutions like Los Alamos National Laboratory, Lockheed, and the U.S. Air Force Academy. Crucially, the lead scientists who established these facts—such as Ray Rogers (lead chemist) and Dr. Barrie Schwortz (official documentation photographer)—were secular, non-Christian, or Jewish scientists who initially set out to prove the Shroud was a fake. 1. No Traces of Pigment, Dye, or InkThe STURP team’s final official conclusion explicitly ruled out the use of any artistic mediums to create the body image. • The Finding: Microchemistry, X-ray fluorescence, and infrared evaluation confirmed that there are no paints, pigments, dyes, stains, or inks on the image fibrils. • The Chemical Reality: The image was not applied to the cloth; rather, the coloration is the result of oxidation, dehydration, and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the linen fibers themselves. It is essentially an accelerated aging or degradation of the topmost layer of the flax, an effect that cannot be achieved with medieval or modern painting techniques.
>>544355776I know Jesus irl and he says it's fake and that you have no proof.
>>544358441you know why
>>544358415>not a great position to take when the entirety of your argument is a lack of evidence lol??????? There is a lot of evidence:>dirt from Jerusalem on Shroud>medically accurate wounds on Shroud, so if it's created, creator must be an anatomy expert>blood put on before the body imageSAD>you say this proves supernatural anythingI never said that. I'm just asking how it was made. You retards scream FORGERY but then break down when evidence is presented to you.>and if it isn't reproducible it also isn't good for anythingYou're missing the point. 100% of items from 700 years ago are reproducible now (whether they are good for anything or not doesn't matter). But the Shroud can't be reproduced.
>>544355834Why is it that shills always manage to get the first post?
>>544358450>Still doesn't name the forger or how he did it.It does, his is the first name mentioned, it is his letter being described by the second guy in english, if you can actually parse images, just put in the first name in the image in your next reply or I am assuming you are a low effort outdated bot that can't even read words in images.
>>5443584872. The Microscopic Image Thickness (0.0002 mm / 0.2 Microns)The sheer superficiality of the image is one of its most anomalous features, rendering the "painting" hypothesis physically impossible.• The Finding: The yellowed coloration does not penetrate the cloth or even the individual threads. A single linen thread is made of roughly 70 to 120 individual flax fibers. The image color affects only the outermost 1 to 2 fibers of a thread, and within those fibers, the coloration is confined strictly to the outer cell wall (the primary cell wall), measuring a mere 0.2 micrometers (microns) thin. • The Paint Contradiction: Any known liquid medium, capillary action, or brushstroke would inevitably soak into the thread or penetrate deeper into the weave. The Shroud image possesses zero capillary flow or directionality. 3. Anatomically Accurate Injuries and Microscopic ContractionsThe forensic analysis of the Shroud was conducted by independent medical examiners and pathologists, notably Dr. Robert Bucklin (a secular forensic pathologist and Los Angeles Deputy Coroner).• The Finding: The wounds on the Shroud exhibit absolute forensic and pathological perfection. The bloodstains consist of genuine human blood (type AB), complete with distinct serum rings that are only visible under ultraviolet light—a concept entirely unknown in the Middle Ages.• Microscopic Muscle Contractions: Pathology reveals that the body is frozen in rigor mortis consistent with a victim of crucifixion. The chest and shoulders display swelling, and individual muscle groups show localized, microscopic trauma and contractions directly resulting from intense physical scourging and asphyxiation. A medieval forger would have had to possess an advanced 20th-century understanding of forensic pathology, hematology, and microscopic anatomy to replicate these details.
>>544358441>why are christkikes like this. why do they insist on pushing jewish fairytales on people who don't want to hear it? why can't they just fuck off?You came into this thread and started posting, retard.And it's atheists pushing the vax and 900 genders.
>>544355850this
>>544358465its literally the same guy in the same statement not even two sentences later after he claims they caught the forger and it was fake
>>544358524>It does, his is the first name mentioned, it is his letter being described by the second guy in english, if you can actually parse images, just put in the first name in the image in your next reply or I am assuming you are a low effort outdated bot that can't even read words in images.I'm too lazy to read it again.Tell me the name or this is your last (you).
>>54435852967 posts! lmao
>>5443585264. 3D Data Encoding• The Finding: In 1976, physicists Dr. John Jackson and Bill Mottern analyzed the Shroud using a VP-8 Image Analyzer—a tool utilized by NASA to map topography.• The Reality: Normal photographs or paintings result in a distorted, scrambled mess when put through a VP-8 analyzer because artists naturally use shadows and highlights to fake depth. The Shroud image, however, contains perfect, mathematically accurate 3D topographic data. The intensity of the image correlates directly to the exact distance the cloth was from the body at the moment of image formation. Scientific References & Sources• Primary Chemical and Microscopy Study (Thermochimica Acta, 2005):https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0040603104004745• STURP History and Project Operations (Academic Overview):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin_Research_Project• Alternative Scientific Study Index (ResearchGate Repository):https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245207955_Studies_on_the_Radiocarbon_Sample_from_the_Shroud_of_Turin
>>544358533>its literally the same guy in the same statement not even two sentences later after he claims they caught the forger and it was fakeWhat was the forgers name? Why didn't they ask him how he did it or ask him to duplicate it?
>>544358549>67 posts! lmaoAtheists are so insane and illogical. All the HRT.
>>544358480>Camera obscuraLol. A camera obscura geometrically reverses images. It doesn't create a tonal/light negative which is what the picture is in the OP. Do you actually understand what a camera obscura does at all?
>>544357888>no comment possible*Ftfy
>>544355834sarrr!!!
>>544357142The Bible is perfect and it is a history book. You are just speaking for satan at this point.
I think the Roman catholic church has the exclusivity on the technology, they also used the same for the Virgin of Guadalupe, another undebunkable mystery.
>>544355776John 20:29. Even if it's legit, it's just a cloth, and if you build your faith on trinkets and relics, that's a very shallow faith indeed.
>>544355966The pyramids is another interesting mystery
>>544358597what a fucking joke. seriously kys
>>544358540No, you stupid fucking bot, you wouldn't have to read the whole thing, its the first name on the first line, you just can't parse it because your retard programmer is too stupid to deal in bots that can read images instead of just spouting retarded bullshit to get everyone else to spoon feed you basic information.
>>544358450The name could be lost to time, the exact process may have left traces that were not detectable using the tests that were made available. That's not to say I'm claiming it's fake, or not. It's a mystery and it's neat. But the fact that they haven't located any evidence doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. And it doesn't seem like they were able to conduct destructive tests on image-bearing portions of the shround taken by random sample, miniscule samples of the unimportant corner threads and fibers which already fell off are probably not adequate to gain a good picture of the chemicals on the cloth, if any. You're putting too much faith in the heckin' science of it all.
>>544356921What? masons are literally in the year 6026
>>544356063>year 1300that test was bogus. the museum denied requests to the data until they were forced too hand over in the early 2000s. they found that they threw out tests from samples,the test samples they kept tested for hundred of years earlier than 1300..they just averaged the tests they kept and it came too 1300.they cut the outside of the clothe which has a different colour than the cloth that is near the image. years later,using the cambridge samples,they found a certain type of cotton which was used in a french technique to repair garments? where was the clothe in 1300? France
>>544357170The lake of fire is not heaven. The new heaven and the new earth will be as one, even as Christ and His church are one. satan, his angels, and the unbelievers will not be present in God's kingdom. You are deceived.
>>544358615>The pyramids is another interesting mysteryNot really. They know what the bricks were made of, they know about the slave labor, they know about the rope/pulley system and long ramps to haul big stones, etc.
>>544356074>capitalises jewkys Shlomo
>>544357307>dust and pollen create a .0002mm thick 3d negative photograph on the topical surface of single cellsLaughably scientifically illiterate.
>>544358621You're clearly a bot though. The other anon is asking about who they CAUGHT faking it, and details about HOW it was faked. You don't seem to have any more information than the AI synopsis is showing you, which tells you WHO commissioned the fake, but not who did it or how, it would have to be an accomplished artist and alchemist no doubt.
>>544358621Last (you)."Medieval Artist / Forgery: Historical records from the 14th century—including a 1389 report by Bishop Pierre d'Arcis of Troyes to Pope Clement VII—state that an ANONYMOUS ARTIST confessed to creating it as a painted icon."Of course it wasn't painted, so that's a lie.
>>544358435>I never said he was. He didn't have to have gone to France for his burial cloth to end up there you fucking retard.You never gave any explanation at all. You're relying on your own lack of evidence as the explanation for why "it couldn't be anyone other than Jesus". It's an impressive level of retardation if nothing else.>Someone found it and wanted to sell it? France was the center of Europe dumb dumb.Congratulations anon. You just solved the mystery to why someone would lie about a historical artifact. Profit from the myths of a prophet. Amazing how we don't even need Jesus to explain that phenomenon.>Medical experts say the person died from crucifixionLol sure buddy. And who are these medical experts? >So now you are saying a body was in there? Just not Jesus? So the artists crucified and razor whipped someone to be accurate? WHAT?Yes. I said this earlier you double digit IQ subhuman. There is no reason to believe it was Jesus. It was probably a French christian who took a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, as most Christians did back then. That would also explain why he had dirt particles on his feet that trace back to Jerusalem. Once again you do not need Jesus to explain anything here, except for the incentive as to why someone would lie about it.It's a lie invented to put that little backwater French town on the map. Tourism sells, anon. It's not difficult to understand - well it might be for you, given your mental handicap and all!
>>544358504America Christians are the most kiked on the planet. The further east you go, the less jewish influence there is.
>>544358623>The name could be lost to time,Not my problem. A guy confessed to killing Jon Benet Ramsey, but after questioning him, he was lying. If they don't have his name, or had him prove how he did it, it's a worthless lead.
>>544358716blessing kalashnikovs to kill other christians seems very kiked
>>544355776The shroud of turin goes against the Bible. The Bible literally says that Jesus’s empty tomb is the reasoning of his resurrection.
that's a big schnozei guess this settles it then
>>544358651The architecture though? Not to mention how difficult it must have been to achieve.
>>544358571>It doesn't create a tonal/light negativeLight from a camera obscura naturally does that to linen especially when some kind of accelerating emulsifier is used to speed up the rate the light causes the linen colors to dissolve.
>>544358771imagine worshipping a trillion year old jew
>>544356448>IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CLOTH YOU'RE A LIBTARD TRANNYso you're just a rightoid, and your belief in the shroud's authenticity is a political statement for your zionist coalition
>>544358651Pyramids are cooler than some old burlap with a dead Jew on it.
>>544358802all these christkikes are miggers
>>544358697>You never gave any explanation at all. You're relying on your own lack of evidence as the explanation for why "it couldn't be anyone other than Jesus".When did I ever say that? Based on all the evidence it is Jesus. And I'm only asking "how was it made" and the answers are poor at best.>You just solved the mystery to why someone would lie about a historical artifact.Still doesn't explain how it was made.>Lol sure buddy. And who are these medical experts? SEE >>544356974>Yes. Oh boy. The AGAIN, they found a body that looked like Jesus, and had crucifixion wounds and Roman razor whip wounds? Are you fucking serious? You are the dumbest mother fucking in this entire thread. SADAll this and it still doesn't explain HOW it was made.You are a legit nutcase.
Christ whips money changers out of temple Sanhedrin owned temple 4 days later on good Friday Christ was crucified Then he left this bitch ass earth and lied and was like I'll be backNigga he left you here to die with these wicked ass fucking Jews If Christ knows what's good for him Or any God for that matter They'll stay far as fuck away from this place Each and everyone of you humans Are niggers
>>544358685Could have been painted on for sure, why not? Heck impregnating the thing with egg albumen would cause the cloth to resist transmission of applied inks/pigments/reagents/etc. such that both sides could be painted with something water-insoluble, then the cloth could be washed to remove the albumen.>>544358721The name isn't exactly critical to the claim of fraud, the guy's long dead and we can't interrogate him. I would say that by stylistic analysis, candidate artists could be located and possibly identified but it doesn't look like anybody has tried to do a comparative stylistic analysis on the image to see if they can link it with an artist working in some known area and time.Creating an image in negative is an ancient technique going back to deepest antiquity, it wouldn't be above the skills for anybody who is a master artist. If the shroud was created by an artist, it should be possible to generate a list of candidates. But nobody seems to be able to do this. It's a regular part of the art history discipline and you'd think somebody would.
>>544358779>The architecture though?They can build the pyramids today.>Not to mention how difficult it must have been to achieve.Difficult? Sure. But they know how it was done and can do it today. Same can't be said for the Shroud.
>>544358636The "Lake of Fire" after judgement day is still in the presence of the Lamb/Christ (rev 14:10). God is the foundation of all existence and reality. It is impossible to not be in his presence, ever. He is a righteous fire to the wicked.>>544358785That method cannot be used to create the type/kind of image on the shroud and is incompatible with material/chemical analysis of it so it's out the window as far as being a possible explanation.
>>544358560mustve been a jewish guy, otherwise they wouldve recorded it.
>>544358857>Could have been painted on for sure, why not?They examined the Shroud in a lab and determined it was NOT painted on.>The name isn't exactly critical to the claim of fraud, the guy's long dead and we can't interrogate himSure it is. If we had a name, and if they had him duplicate his work, we wouldn't be having this conversation.>Creating an image in negative is an ancient technique going back to deepest antiquity, It can't be duplicated today. And no other Shrouds like the Shroud of Turin exist.
>>544358678>The other anon is asking about who they CAUGHT faking itBecause he is too retarded to read the image of the confession letter where the guy is admitting to doing it and vaguely describing how he did it.>You don't seem to have any more informationI obviously actually read the image since I can describing it in detail, the GPT-2 bot can't even extract the first name from the image to prove it has actually read the image it keeps asking about, so I am not bothering to engage if it can't even demonstrate it can look at the image and repeat the first name that is written and starts with a P.
>>544358913>mustve been a jewish guy, otherwise they wouldve recorded it.Yeah, the Catholic Church loved kikes 700 years ago.
It's been 2 millennia of lies anon, it's time to let go of semitic stories that don't even belong to you
>>544358975>It's been 2 millennia of lies anon, it's time to let go of semitic stories that don't even belong to youYup, better embrace real stuff like 900 genders and endless covid vax shots>inb4 "NOOOO I DON'T BELIEVE THAT"Atheists are the #1 group to support this nonsense.
>>544358833>Based on all the evidence it is JesusThe evidence doesn't show that at all. Why would you assume a cloth found in some backwater FRENCH village belonged to the corpse of a 2000 year old Jew who died in Jerusalem?You have no evidence to make that connection at all, other than some French Christians in 13th century who made the claim that it is the Shroud of Turin. Nothing to prove that besides their word, which you have to be genuinely retarded to believe with no evidence. >All this and it still doesn't explain HOW it was made.Why does that matter? You don't give any explanation anyway, for how it ended up in France. Prove that it came from Jerusalem if it's definitely the Shroud of Turin, anon.
>>544358940yup, wouldve been right around the time they teamed up with the jews and french monarchy to eliminate jews' banking rivals, the crusaders.i think the jewish guy blasting dudes butts on the cradle of jewdas came a little after
>>544358940>Yeah, the Catholic Church loved kikes 700 years agoWell, those dumb fags worshiped one after all...in between literally idolizing his mother.
>>544357632>Missing the point this muchChrigger IQ in action
>>544357339The microscopic particles of limestone found adhering to the Shroud of Turin consist of a rare, specific mineral variation known as travertine aragonite. During the 1978 examination by the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP), scientists performing reflectance spectroscopy discovered an unusual abundance of microscopic dirt and dust. This debris is heavily concentrated around the heel, knees, and nose of the man on the Shroud. Proponents of the Shroud's authenticity link this specific spatial layout to physical trauma, corresponding precisely with areas that would repeatedly impact the ground or absorb dirt when a crucifixion victim collapsed while carrying a heavy crossbeam.In 1982, STURP chemist Ray Rogers forwarded sticky tape samples from the heel area to Joseph Kohlbeck, an optical crystallographer at Hercules Aerospace. Kohlbeck analyzed the mineral composition and identified it as travertine aragonite containing trace amounts of iron and strontium, notably lacking lead. Working with Dr. Eugenia Nitowski, an archaeologist who had collected limestone samples directly from ancient first-century rock-cut tombs in Jerusalem, Kohlbeck discovered that the chemical signatures of the Shroud's dust and the Jerusalem tomb samples matched to a striking degree.To corroborate this further, Dr. Riccardo Levi-Setti of the University of Chicago put both the Shroud and Jerusalem dust samples through a state-of-the-art high-resolution scanning ion microprobe. His advanced testing confirmed an unusually close match between the mass spectra of the two mineral samples.
>>544359048The backgrounds of the researchers involved represent a mix of both religious and secular perspectives:• Joseph Kohlbeck: He was a practicing, active Christian and a long-time parishioner of St. Thomas More Catholic Church in Utah.• Dr. Eugenia Nitowski: She was a biblical archaeologist who eventually entered a cloistered, contemplative life as a Discalced Carmelite nun, taking the religious name Sister Damian of the Cross.• Ray Rogers: He operated from a non-sectarian standpoint, maintaining no religious affiliation, and originally approached the Shroud testing with the intent to scientifically prove the artifact was a medieval fake.• Dr. Riccardo Levi-Setti: He came from a secular Jewish family that survived fascist persecution in wartime Italy, maintaining a completely objective, non-religious orientation throughout his scientific career.References:• Kohlbeck, J. A., and Nitowski, E. L. (1986). "New Evidence May Explain Image on Shroud of Turin." The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 49, No. 3, pp. 183-192.• Levi-Setti, R., Crow, G., and Wang, Y. L. (1985). "Progress in High Resolution Scanning Ion Microscopy and Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry." Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry SIMS V, Springer-Verlag, pp. 132-138.• Smith, H. (2018). "Riccardo Levi-Setti, Holocaust survivor who uncovered trilobites and subatomic particles, dies at 91." The Washington Post, Obituary Records, November 20, 2018.• Marino, J. G. (2022). "Raymond N. Rogers and the Shroud of Turin." The Most Notable Figures in Shroud of Turin Research of the 20th and 21st Centuries, Academic Registry Review, pp. 12-15.
>>544359001>Yup, better embrace real stuff like 900 genders and endless covid vax shotsHe's an Italian, they have a pantheon of pre-Christian Gods to choose from that are native to them.
>>544358926>They examined the Shroud in a lab and determined it was NOT painted on.Yes but they weren't able to destructively test the image-bearing portions of the cloth in a mass spectrometer. They were only able to take whispy non-image-bearing edge bits and test those. The pollen collected from the cloth was "typical" but all the plants detected, still grow in the region today and are common across the Med. There are many issues with this supposed iron-clad scientific guarantee that it's super for real.>Sure it is. If we had a name, and if they had him duplicate his work, we wouldn't be having this conversation.OK, so... what's the solution, to get a time machine? Name or not it proves nothing conclusively.>It can't be duplicated today.You mean, it hasn't been duplicated today, as of yet. But without destructive testing of the image-bearing portions, we can't actually know what elements they may contain, in what proportions, etc. And this is not allowed, PERIOD. Only whispy little edge fibers have had their spectrum run.>And no other Shrouds like the Shroud of Turin exist.This I can agree with, it's either a genuine miracle or a true masterwork. Calling it a forgery is understating the accomplishment, if that's what it is. It's a masterwork.>>544358932>Because he is too retarded to read the image of the confession letter where the guy is admitting to doing it and vaguely describing how he did it.Where's that? I just saw an AI summary, not the actual manuscript of the letter.Did I miss a post?
>>544359001You have to grapple to beliefs that other people push into your brain to keep going?
>>544357960The argument that Mark 14:51–52 describes Jesus being found with a naked child relies directly on a straightforward reading of the narrative timeline, clear reading comprehension, and the original Koine Greek text. The argument breaks down into two core points: the age of the individual and his clothing status.1. "A Young Man," Not a Child (The Greek Grammar)The claim that this passage describes a "child" or a "kid" is a complete misreading of the original Greek text.• The Greek Word: The text explicitly uses the noun νεανίσκος (neaniskos).• The Linguistic Meaning: In ancient Greek, neaniskos specifically denotes a young man or a youth, typically ranging from late adolescence to early adulthood (roughly 16 to 28 years old). It is never used to describe a young child, toddler, or infant, for which the Greek language utilizes entirely different words, such as paidion or teknon.• Contextual Use: The exact same word (neaniskos) is used later in Mark 16:5 to describe the "young man" sitting in Jesus' empty tomb.
>>544359019>The evidence doesn't show that at allAGAIN>dirt from Jerusalem (your insane theory is just that, insane). According to you he went to Jerusalem, came back, made the Shroud, but didn't wash himself at all. >wounds medically accurate for razor whipping and crucifixion>blood put on first, which is nonsensical>looks like JesusSAD>Why does that matter?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Yeah, one item on the planet that science can't duplicate and it's "why does that matter"? SAD>You don't give any explanation anyway, for how it ended up in France. I already said some guy found it and tried to sell it (or charge people to look at it).>Prove that it came from Jerusalem if it's definitely the Shroud of Turin, anon.The dirt is the best evidence and your telling of how it got on there is nonsensical.
>>544357816>Le kamala bad because traňáci>Le miggers good because they support Israel more than kikes themselves Embarrassing
>>544359040yeah they did
>>544359077Yeah and unironically pretending like you actually believe in these ancient marvel superhero equivalents as literal gods that actually govern reality is more laughable and embarrassing than BPD whores talking about casting spells and calling themselves "witches".
>>544357902Then how was it hard as a board when it was placed on your dead circumcised god-rabbi?
>>544359095>Yes but they weren't able to destructively test the image-bearing portions of the cloth in a mass spectrometer.You don't need to do this to see if an image is painted on or not.>OK, so... what's the solution, to get a time machine? Name or not it proves nothing conclusively.Exactly.>You mean, it hasn't been duplicated today, as of yet.100% of items from 700 years ago can be duplicated today....but not the Shroud.
>>5443591382. Clothed vs. Naked (The Timeline of Events)To assert that this young man was "found naked" requires a total failure of basic reading comprehension. The narrative timeline explicitly states the exact opposite:• Initial Status (Fully Clothed): The text states that the young man was wearing a linen cloth over his body (περιβεβλημένος σινδόνα, peribeblemenos sindona). The Greek verb peribeblemenos means "clothed," "wrapped," or "dressed in." A sindon was a fine sheet of linen fabric, often worn as an overgarment, a nightshirt, or wraps resembling tunics or lightweight pajamas. He was dressed appropriately for sleeping or lounging when the chaos erupted.• The Altercation: When the armed crowd or guards arrived to arrest Jesus, they physically seized the young man (κρατοῦσιν αὐτόν, kratousin auton).• The Escape: Rather than allowing himself to be captured, the young man pulled away, leaving his linen garment in the hands of the guards (καταλιπὼν τὴν σινδόνα, katalipōn tēn sindona—meaning "leaving behind the linen cloth").• The Result: It was only after he slipped out of his clothing to escape his captors that he fled away naked (γυμνὸς ἔφυγεν, gymnos ephygen).
>>544359215Summary of the ArgumentTherefore, the text states that Jesus was approached in the garden by a clothed young adult male, not a naked child. The young man was wearing standard night clothes, was grabbed by his outer garment by guards during a chaotic arrest, and chose to strip out of that garment to avoid being captured. Concluding that Jesus was caught with a naked youth ignores the literal order of operations in the text, showing a complete lack of textual literacy.References:• Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (3rd ed.). University of Chicago Press.• France, R. T. (2002). The Gospel of Mark: A Commentary on the Greek Text. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing.• Lane, W. L. (1974). The Gospel According to Mark. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing.
>>544359098>You have to grapple to beliefs that other people push into your brain to keep going?I would keep going much easier if you stopped the anti-science nonsense (which is weird because atheists are so YES PRO SCIENCE)
>>544359147>traňáciWhat?Christians believing in Christian stuff isn't new. Atheists suddenly being antiscience after a thousand years of TRUST SCIENCE is baffling
>>544358040There's 10 skittles in a bowl. We know that one of them is poisoned. We wouldn't eat any of them but you would eat them all because you don't know which one is poisoned
>>544359142>I already said some guy found it and tried to sell it (or charge people to look at it).Wow that's definitive proof. That really fills in all the gaps of your missing evidence to conclude the narrative you believe in is 100% true. >The dirt is the best evidence and your telling of how it got on there is nonsensical.>dude only JESUS was crucified and such things ONLY EVER HAPPENED in Jerusalem! They couldn't POSSIBLY do that to another Christian from France, who took (a common) pilgrimage to Jerusalem, after he got back with dirt particles still on his feet!
>>544359019Because it has a helmet of thorns, spear piercing in the side, hundreds of lashes on the back, and nails through the wrists as well as the ankles in conjunction with the fact that it is an undeniably miraculous supernatural ancient 3d photograph for which there is no scientific explanation? Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, anon.
>>544359272>Wow that's definitive proof.More believable than your "they found a guy that looked like Jesus and he had crucifixion wounds and Roman whip wounds and was bleeding heavily and that's the guy the artist used".> after he got back with dirt particles still on his feet!So he didn't wash his feet? And it wasn't just dirt, it was pollen and limestone particles.SAD
I mean our bot friend has already said how it could be created with a camera obscura. An image could be painted and the shroud contact printed or enlarged from it using a camera obscura. Reagents which are light sensitive could be used to accelerate the aging of the cloth, or resist could be applied in the areas which are not to be darkened. It's not like cameras obscura were a secret back in the medieval period. I can lie in my bed with all the shades drawn and see a perfect image of my back yard projected on the ceiling.Granted this is purely a thought experiment but you could create a burned-in image in a cloth using nothing but sunlight and easily washed-away reagents and substances. Stick a cloth under a window where the sun hits and put a transparency of Elvis on it - BOOM a while later you have your "miracle image" of Elvis. No reagents needed at all.>You don't need to do this to see if an image is painted on or not.Is this your opinion as an expert? An artist? I'm not a professional artist but I have a lot of experience with film photography, painting, etc. and I just laid out how you could do it easily. There are as many ways as a person can imagine. Destructive testing of the image bearing portion is needed to detect reagents which might not be visible or with traces too faint to see with a microscope or hyperspectral imaging.>100% of items from 700 years ago can be duplicated today....but not the Shroud.First, IMHO it's impossible to date things that far back conclusively. Second, it CAN be duplicated, or COULD be, or an analogous image could be created. I laid out how above, the bot did too. Different ways even. Whether or not it's a genuine miracle, your salvation is NOT attached to the fact of the matter one way or the other, why invest so much energy into defending it? You clearly don't know you shit artistically either.
>>544356696>>544356696>later day forgeryThe Mormons did it?
>>544358716How do we tell him
>>5443590951. The "Only Edge Bits Were Tested" ErrorThe claim that the image-bearing portions were never chemically analyzed or run through a spectrometer is completely false. While the 1988 destructive radiocarbon C-14 dating did only use a corner edge piece (the Raes/cloister samplings), the 1978 STURP team spent 5 days directly testing the actual image-bearing portions of the cloth.They utilized non-destructive UV-visible reflectance spectroscopy, infrared spectroscopy, X-ray fluorescence, and pyrolysis-mass spectrometry on sticky-tape lifts taken directly from the image area, the bloodstains, and the background scorches. The chemical signature of the image area is verified to be a microscopic dehydration and oxidation of the top layer of the linen fibers—completely devoid of paints, pigments, carrier oils, or binders.2. The "No Mass Spectrometry on the Image" ErrorSTURP chemist Ray Rogers later performed destructive pyrolysis-mass spectrometry on the actual image-bearing fibers lifted during the 1978 testing. The mass spectra verified absolutely zero chemical trace of proteinaceous binders (like egg tempera or animal glues), oils, or medieval dyes in the image zones. The elements and their proportions are known; the image consists solely of an altered polysaccharide structure of the flax fiber itself.
>>544358894Good thing you are suddenly an expert on the method that you just said didn't even exist.
>>5443593663. The Pollen MisdirectionWhile some general Mediterranean pollen is present, the specific findings by Swiss criminologist Max Frei and corroborated by Israeli botanist Avinoam Danin identified high concentrations of Gundelia tournefortii and Zygophyllum dumosum. Zygophyllum dumosum grows exclusively in Israel, Jordan, and the Sinai peninsula—it does not grow natively in France, Italy, or Europe. Its heavy presence points to a specific geographic origin in the Near East, not a random medieval European compilation.4. The "Confession Letter" MythThe "confession letter" they are referring to is a massive distortion of the Pierre d'Arcis Memorandum written in 1389 to Pope Clement VII. There is no letter written by an artist confessing to a crime. Instead, Bishop Pierre d'Arcis wrote a complaint claiming that his predecessor, Henri de Poitiers, had decades earlier spoken to an unnamed artist who supposedly admitted to painting it. No artist's name is ever given, no description of the technique is provided, and no actual "confession manuscript" from a creator exists. It is a medieval administrative complaint containing third-hand hearsay, not a forensic confession.
>>544359285>Because it has a helmet of thorns, spear piercing in the side, hundreds of lashes on the back, and nails through the wristsYou just described a crucifixion, of which hundreds of thousands of people throughout history were subjected to. You're fucking retarded. Jesus wasn't the first or the last or the only person to die as you described.Finding someone who died matching that description, in 13th century France where the cloth first emerged, doesn't prove that it's the Shroud of Tourin placed on Jesus who died in Jerusalem. Retard.
>>544358570Join your xisters
>>544359386References:• Jumper, E. J., Adler, A. D., Jackson, J. P., Pellicori, S. F., Heller, J. H., & Druzik, J. R. (1984). "A Comprehensive Examination of the Various Stain and Images on the Shroud of Turin." Archaeological Chemistry III, American Chemical Society, pp. 447-476.• Rogers, R. N. (2005). "Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin." Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 425, No. 1-2, pp. 189-194.• Danin, A., Whanger, A. D., Baruch, U., & Whanger, M. (1999). Flora of the Shroud of Turin. Missouri Botanical Garden Press.• Crispino, E. (1989). "The Report of Peter d'Arcis." Shroud Spectrum International, No. 32/33, pp. 19-28.
>>544359344>Is this your opinion as an expert? No, but I've never heard a Shroud skeptic say "if only we used this machine it would prove it was painted on">IMHO it's impossible to date things that far back conclusively.But it's accurate when the Shroud is being dated? But fine, if they found any time from 500 to 1000 years ago, they can duplicated it today.>Second, it CAN be duplicated, or COULD be, or an analogous image could be created. I laid out how above, the bot did too. Different ways even.But it hasn't been duplicated.
>>544359399>if a Christian believes in evolution they are all 100% pro scienceListen to yourself. Just ignoring the facts and data that it's atheists supporting and voting for trans nonsense.
>>544359384>Good thing you are suddenly an expert on the method that you just said didn't even exist.I was referring to a camera obscura being unusable as a means to see details of the Shroud at that time; you're referring to it actually being created through the use of that tool + emulsifiers which still isn't sufficient to explain the details and characteristics of the image in the first place.
>>544358926>They examined the Shroud in a lab and determined it was NOT painted on.People use the word painted colloquially to mean add/change color, autistic literalanon, they will even say think like the countryside was painted by the light of the rising dawn even though chemical analysis will show that there is no actual paint being applied to the countryside.
>>544359138it means pubescent boywhen does puberty begin? theres your floor. end? theres your ceiling. wouldnt have been legal in my country ill tell you that much, and i live in a christcucked country too
>>544359396The claim that these injuries represent a generic, standard Roman execution is historically false. Roman crucifixion was designed to be an efficient, streamlined assembly line of terror for slaves and rebels, yet the Shroud details an execution that deviates from standard Roman protocol in three highly specific ways that perfectly mirror the unique events of the Gospels:First, no other crucifixion victim in recorded history was given a crown of thorns. Major Roman sources, legal digests, and historians like Josephus record thousands of crucifixions but make absolutely zero mention of this practice. It was a specific, cruel mockery devised by soldiers solely to satirize Jesus' claim to be the "King of the Jews". Furthermore, forensic analysis of the Shroud reveals this was not an artistic ring wreath, but a brutal helmet of thorns rammed down over the entire skull, leaving over 50 distinct puncture wounds that heavily bled into the hair and forehead.Second, the post-mortem side wound is a complete deviation from standard Roman practice. To ensure a victim was dead, Roman soldiers routinely performed crurifragium—shattering the legs with a mallet so the victim could no longer support their weight to breathe. The man on the Shroud has completely intact leg bones. Instead, he has a distinct oval puncture wound between the fifth and sixth ribs inflicted by a Roman lance, which caused a massive post-mortem drainage of blood and clear pulmonary fluid.
>>544359321>More believable than your "they found a guy that looked like Jesus and he had crucifixion wounds and Roman whip wounds and was bleeding heavily and that's the guy the artist used".No it's really not. Recreating a crucifixion doesn't require miracles or a supernatural explanation either. You have no explanation for the 13 century time gap between the life/death of Jesus and when this "Shroud of Turin" was disocvered in fucking FranceYour explanation for how it got there to fill in 13 centuries of missing evidence is >some guy probably sold it and France was popular lolYou're a mentally retarded golem, desperately clinging to a belief in dead Jewish superheros.
>>544359492Third, the sheer volume of scourging marks is highly irregular. The Shroud displays over 120 dumbbell-shaped wounds from a Roman flagellum covering the front and back of the body. This matches the Gospel account where Pilate originally ordered a maximum scourging as a standalone, alternative punishment to satisfy the crowd, before ultimately caving and ordering a crucifixion anyway.Additionally, by completely ignoring the fact that the Shroud acts as a 3D negative photograph, you have conceded that point. Since you only addressed half the argument and completely ducked the substance of the image's unique photographic and spatial characteristics, I accept your concession on that front.References:• Zugibe, F. T. (2005). The Crucifixion of Jesus: A Forensic Inquiry. M. Evans & Company.• Jackson, J. P., Jumper, E. J., & Ercoline, W. R. (1984). "Correlation of Image Intensity on the Shroud of Turin with 3-D Structure of a Human Body Shape." Applied Optics, Vol. 23, No. 14, pp. 2244-2270.• Ricci, G. (1977). The Holy Shroud: A Scientific Evaluation. Center for Shroud Studies.• Hengel, M. (1977). Crucifixion in the Ancient World and the Folly of the Message of the Cross. Fortress Press.
>>544359001The whole gender spectrum thing comes from jewish law and the Talmud starting a gender vs sex arms race.>Atheists are the #1 group to support this nonsense.Nope, jews literally invented it and it is most popular in crypto jew countries like those managed by christians like the vast majority of people who have ever been on the supreme court, in the presidency, or in congress.
>>544359396The Shroud, if it is real, would be the same thing as the Mandylion/Image of Edessa, which is a known relic from the Byzantine Empire that disappeared from Constantinople after the sacking of 1204 by Latin Crusaders with a large contingent from France. It actually lines up remarkably well that it appeared there at the time it did.There is actually another relic called the prayer codex from the late 1100s near Constantinople where the Image of Edessa was that appears to have specifically recreated details unique to the Shroud of Turin ie specific patterns and numbers of burn holes.
>>544359510> Recreating a crucifixion doesn't require miracles or a supernatural explanation either.So the artist killed someone to make his art? That's your claim?>You're a mentally retarded golem, desperately clinging to a belief in dead Jewish superheros.So Jesus hasn't been the most popular historical figure for the last 1500+ years?You are fucking insane>THE ARTIST CRUCIFIED AND WHIPPED A GUY THAT LOOKED LIKE JESUS AND USED HIM AS HIS SHROUD MODEL
>>544359484The assertion that the Koine Greek word νεανίσκος (neaniskos) means a "pre-pubescent boy" is linguistically impossible. In contemporaneous Greek literature, lexicography, and biblical usage, the word systematically denotes a fully developed young adult male, specifically spanning from late adolescence into a man's twenties.According to standard, authoritative Koine Greek lexicons, the word breaks down as follows:• The Root: The word is derived directly from νεανίας (neanias), which means a young man who has reached his physical prime.• The Age Bracket: Lexicons define its parameters as stretching roughly from 16 to 28 or 30 years of age. In the ancient Greco-Roman world, this was the exact age of military eligibility, full legal accountability, and heavy labor capability.• The Floor: The absolute linguistic floor of a neaniskos is a male who has completely finished puberty and entered young manhood. It is never used to denote a child, a pre-pubescent boy, or a young adolescent going through puberty. For those stages of development, ancient Greek strictly utilized words like nēpios (infant/toddler), paidion (child), or pais (boy).
>>5443595742. Proofs from the New Testament and Contemporaneous Greek LiteratureThe way neaniskos is used across the Bible and secular text from that era proves it refers exclusively to young adults, not children or pre-pubescent boys:• The Rich Young Ruler (Matthew 19:20-22): The person who approaches Jesus is explicitly called a neaniskos. This individual ran his own independent estate, owned massive properties, managed his own wealth, and had kept the commandments since his childhood (neotētos). A pre-pubescent boy could not legally or physically own and operate major agricultural estates in first-century Judea.• The Soldiers in Mark (Mark 14:51): In many early Greek manuscripts of this exact passage, the guards or soldiers who seize the young man are themselves referred to as neaniskoi. The word was widely used to describe military personnel, guards, and watchmen because it meant men in their physical prime.• The Young Men in Acts (Acts 5:6-10): When Ananias and Sapphira die, the text states that the neaniskoi stepped forward, wrapped up the dead bodies, carried them out, and buried them. In ancient Jewish culture, moving and burying adult corpses was heavy, grueling physical labor strictly relegated to grown, capable men, never young children or boys.• Secular Historical Accounts (Josephus): The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus continuously uses neaniskos to describe battlefield-ready Roman and Jewish soldiers. In The Jewish War, he uses the term to define elite military recruits who were explicitly chosen because they had reached full adult strength.
>>544359615References:• Liddell, H. G., & Scott, R. (1940). A Greek-English Lexicon. Clarendon Press. (Entry for νεανίσκος: "A young man, youth; in plural, young men, often indicating soldiers").• Josephus, F. (ca. 75 CE). The Jewish War, Books II and III. (Linguistic analysis of military recruitment terminology).• Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. American Book Company. (Contextual breakdown of neaniskos in Matthew, Mark, and Acts).
>>544359214Too bad that anyone can google search "Shroud of Turin Replica" to see you are just hallucinating to reinforce the bias of your programmer again, tardbot.
>>544359462So what about the tranny pastors?
>>544358932Where's the manuscript of the letter, bot?>>544359366OK I was wrong, but the image could have been created without any reagents, or using reagents which could wash away like albumen or glue. Even calling the darkened areas bloodstains, is iffy.The pollen issue is moot because the precise history of the location of the Shroud is not known, and it could have been carried into or made in the Levant and surrounds.Letter is a separate issue, and even if the name of the artist isn't given nor the techique, this doesn't mean an artist didn't make it using some technique. It's not proof one way or the other and should be the subject of more careful research.>>544359427>I've never heard a Shroud skeptic say "if only we used this machine it would prove it was painted on"What's that mean to you?>But it's accurate when the Shroud is being dated?I never claimed anything about the accuracy of the dating, myself.>if they found any time from 500 to 1000 years ago, they can duplicated it todaySure. I described how. You wouldn't even need any chemicals.>it hasn't been duplicated.I'm sure similar images are created all the time, accidentally, behind windows across the world. If you've ever let something get UV bleached with another object sitting on top of it blocking the light, you've seen this. Nearly everybody has seen this in their day to day life.It doesn't matter if it's real or not, but it's not impossible to create such an image. You could use two contact pieces, one for the front, one for the back, and simply flip it after a while and apply the other contact image and let it get UV damaged with NUCLEAR light! Just like Mel Gibson says!Honestly the guy who found the Ark has bigger and better legs than the Shroud researchers and their fan cliques.
>>544359464It has no form of dye, pigment, or ink. It is a .0002mm thick image on the topical layer of single cells. You have no idea what you're talking about. This is non-controversial information that no serious skeptic of the shroud even disputes.
>>544359574pubescent, not prepubescent, thats why the neo prefix is used. manhood occurred at puberty. to us today, thats a child. the word youre looking for full grown man is νεανίας, its not the word used tho.
>>544359562>So the artist killed someone to make his art? That's your claim?No you tragically stupid moron. The face imprint you see on the cloth is the victim of torture and murder. The "artist" is whoever was overseeing the crucifixion and placed the cloth over the victims face. The fact I had to spell that out for you reflects on you poorly. >So Jesus hasn't been the most popular historical figure for the last 1500+ years?Anon I made that point earlier. Christianity is the most popular religion in the world and people lie about it all the time. Goycattle like yourself are all too willing to belieeeeeeve in whatever narrative you want to be true, so long as it comes from a Christian source of information.
>>544359510Do you have an explanation for how the Shroud has 250 points of geometric symmetry with the Mandylion of Edessa and multiple other images hundreds of years older than the 13th century? (60 points of symmetry is enough to identify/convict someone for murder)
>>544359699You could easily create such an image by exposing cloth to UV light and blocking it appropriately. It's done accidentally all over the world, every day. No chemicals needed.Real Mel Gibson Nuclear Light.
>>544359651"Nevertheless, Garlaschelli’s full-sizeattempt only partially reproduced the Shroud’s key features. He failed to replicate theextreme superficiality of the image and the absence of an image under bloodstains.Hence, even if one focuses more on physical possibilities than the development of Euro-pean art history between the mid-thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, the challenge ofreproducing the image remains a significant consideration in a naturalistic context.55"https://philarchive.org/archive/CASSEO-2Image on the right looks fake.
>>544359689let us know if we need to explain the big scary words to you
>>544359627like i said theres a floor and a ceiling, which would jesus, a jew, be more inclined towards,? the floor obviously. jews rape kids.
>>5443597171. The Greek Prefix FallacyHis claim about the "neo" prefix is a complete linguistic invention. In ancient Greek, the prefix νεο- or root νε- simply means "new" or "young." It does not mean "partially formed" or "going through puberty." The exact same root is used to form words like νεόφυτος (neophytos - newly planted/converted) and νεανίας (neanias). It indicates the beginning stage of full adult life, not childhood. To argue that a root meaning "young" automatically scales a word down to a 12-year-old child completely ignores how Greek nouns are constructed.2. The Relationship Between Neaniskos and NeaniasHis claim that neanias means a full-grown man while neaniskos means a child is completely false. In Koine Greek, νεανίσκος and νεανίας are direct linguistic synonyms. They are used interchangeably throughout ancient literature to describe the exact same age bracket of young men.• The Suffix Meaning: The -iskos suffix in ancient Greek is an old diminutive ending that, by the Hellenistic period, had completely lost its diminutive meaning in common speech. It functioned purely as a stylistic variant of neanias.• The Academic Proof: Authoritative Greek lexicons explicitly state that neaniskos and neanias share the exact same definition: a young man in his physical prime, spanning from late teens to approximately age 30 or 40.
>>544359718>The face imprint you see on the cloth is the victim of torture and murder.What about the BODY you fucking retard?> The "artist" is whoever was overseeing the crucifixion and placed the cloth over the victims face. So who was this person that was crucified and roman whipped in the 1300s?
>>5443598483. Historical and Legal Adult Status (The "Child" Error)His claim that "to us today, that's a child" is historically incorrect. In the ancient Greco-Roman and Jewish world, a neaniskos was legally, socially, and physically a grown man, not a child by modern standards.• Roman Military Law: Under Roman rule, a neaniskos was a man who had reached the age of military conscription, which began at age 17.• Jewish Law: In first-century Judea, a male reached legal religious adulthood at age 13, was expected to marry around age 18, and entered full community leadership responsibilities at age 20 (Numbers 1:3).• The Timeline: A neaniskos in his late teens or twenties was a tax-paying, weapon-bearing, marriage-eligible adult male, which matches our modern definition of an adult, not a child.4. Concession on the "Naked" TimelineFurthermore, since you are no longer even disputing the fact that the young man was not actually naked when he was found, I accept your concession on that aspect of the argument as well. By dropping it entirely, you have basically admitted that you completely missed the literal narrative order of operations—where he was fully clothed in a linen garment, was grabbed by the guards, and stripped out of his clothes to escape capture. Focusing strictly on half the argument now because you know you cannot address the substance of the textual timeline shows your original point was defamatory, illiterate, and intellectually pathetic.References:• Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (3rd ed.). University of Chicago Press.• Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament. Hodder and Stoughton.• Philo of Alexandria. (ca. 40 CE). De Opificio Mundi (On the Creation), 105.
>>544359285So why doesn't the bible mention who saved the shroud and how they came to find it like it mentions the image of his face that was imprinted on Saint Veronica's Veil, why would god preserve and amplify some picture on a burial shroud he never mentioned in his book, while letting the image he actually mentioned be largely overlooked by history?
>>544359689>I'm sure similar images are created all the timeYes, with paint or pencils. The Shroud image can't be duplicated to that level of detail.
>>544359463Yes it is, you didn't even understand the argument, you obviously still aren't an expert on the process you just said was impossible.
>>5443596511. The Microscopic Pigment and Binder DiscrepancyGarlaschelli’s method relied on applying red ochre pigment (iron oxide) mixed with a weak acid solution to a linen cloth, which was then baked and washed to create the image. Under high microscopic magnification, this method leaves clear forensic evidence that differs fundamentally from the Shroud of Turin:• Pigment Penetration: Garlaschelli's acid-pigment technique caused the coloration to soak completely through the linen fibers, staining the core of the thread. On the actual Shroud, the image color is strictly superficial. It exists exclusively on the outermost 200 to 500 nanometers of the flax fiber's cell wall (the primary cell wall), leaving the inner core of the fibers completely white and untouched.• Chemical vs. Structural Coloration: Garlaschelli achieved his coloration via a chemical acid burn and pigment residue. Conversely, chemical testing by the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) proved the real Shroud contains absolutely zero pigments, chemical stains, heavy metals, or binding mediums (such as oils, glues, or egg tempera). The Shroud’s image is a structural change—a low-temperature oxidation and dehydration of the linen polysaccharides, effectively a microscopic form of natural scorching.
>>544359859>What about the BODY you fucking retard?What about it? No proof that it's Jesus. No proof that the body came from Jerusalem. No proof that the body is older than 13th century. >So who was this person that was crucified and roman whipped in the 1300s?Good question. We don't know honestly. We can't say for certain one way or another. But we can be reasonable adults, if possible. It's not reasonable to assume a corpse in 13th century France is Jesus of Nazareth. Put down the burning bush, man.
>>544359651Post it, you must have access to hidden information I don't. The closest actual physical recreation is Garlaschelli's created in 2009, but it fails on several fronts to actually recreate the same properties (he used pigments, which don't exist on the actual Shroud, the blood was added after the image was formed rather than before, the image's depth was nowhere near as superficial and was much deeper into the linen, and there wasn't consistent longitudinal distribution of color along the fibers)The lack of pigment combined with the 0.2 micrometer depth + the level of detail really is the biggest problem. Creating something with that much detail at 0.2 micrometers thick solely through uniformly drying the absolute microscopic top layer of fiber to be a bit darker in some places. It simply cannot be done with any known method and no one has ever been able to even propose an effective way to do it, much less actually follow through with it.
ALSO Both the Shroud and Sudarium of Oviedo, both have the rare AB blood.What are the odds of both "faked things" having the same blood type?
>>5443599402. The 3D Topographic and Distortion ErrorThe primary scientific failure of Garlaschelli's reproduction is its lack of precise 3D mathematical encoding. When a linen cloth is wrapped around a three-dimensional human face and rubbed with pigment, the resulting image undergoes a physical phenomenon known as wrap-around distortion.• The Mask Effect: When Garlaschelli’s replica is flattened out, the facial features appear severely distorted, wide, and flat—a visual artifact often called the "Agamemnon Mask" effect.• Isotropic Grayscale Encoding: The real Shroud of Turin contains no wrap-around distortion. Instead, it contains unique, isotropic grayscale shading where the intensity of the image correlates perfectly with the physical distance between the cloth and a human body. When the real Shroud is processed through a VP-8 Image Analyzer or modern 3D depth-mapping software, it produces an anatomically perfect, mathematically precise 3D relief of a human body. When Garlaschelli’s replica is run through the same 3D analyzer, the flat pigment plateaus produce a heavily distorted, flat, and anatomically incorrect map.References:• Garlaschelli, L. (2010). "Life-size Reproduction of the Shroud of Turin and its Image." Journal of Imaging Science and Technology, Vol. 54, No. 4, pp. 1-4.• Heimberger, T. (2010). "The Garlaschelli Shroud: A Detailed Scientific Analysis and Critique." Shroud Research Archives, Scientific Review Monograph, pp. 14-22.• Jackson, J. P., Jumper, E. J., & Ercoline, W. R. (1984). "Correlation of Image Intensity on the Shroud of Turin with 3-D Structure of a Human Body Shape." Applied Optics, Vol. 23, No. 14, pp. 2244-2270.• Adler, A. D. (2002). "The Chemical and Physical Characteristics of the Shroud of Turin Image." The Orphaned Relic: A Scientist's View of the Shroud of Turin, Effatà Editrice, pp. 67-74.
>>544359946>What about it? No proof that it's Jesus. No proof that the body came from Jerusalem. No proof that the body is older than 13th century.You're not hearing my question. Are you saying the artist ROMAN WHIPPED the Shroud model he used?>Good question. We don't know honestly. We can't say for certain one way or another. You are insane and a retard.
>>544359938I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but you appear to not understand the actual properties of the Shroud. The method you describe would not be able to create a 0.2 micrometer thick image with 3D detail encoding, full stop.
>>544359829Carbon dating was conclusively proved by its inventor to be only useful for a confidence range of a couple thousand years give or take. Do you know how they do it? They literally have a carbon dating data bank of carbonaceous material they have dated using finds in-situ and at the same level as something else that can supposedly be dated fairly precisely. Then they will carbon sample the artifact, which they dated mind you conventionally without radioisotope dating, and say "things that match this are now such and such an age" but the method only seems to properly work for limited geographical regions sharing the same soils, amount of rainfall, etc. and even finds on opposite sides of the same hill which are firmly conventionally dated, can show wide radiocarbon dates even accounting for the age of the raw materials, etc.It's not suitable and it's not scientific and the dude who invented it has written several papers about it, debunking use of it for archaeological dating. References are available in Book I of Fomenko.>>544359878If it was created as a painting on glass and applied it could indeed be done with extreme levels of detail, being life sized. Miniature painting was by the time the people who say it's faked, very highly developed too.
>>544359562>So Jesus hasn't been the most popular historical figure for the last 1500+ years?Nope, he has been a fairly popular mythological figure especially among poor people and minorities which causes sociopathic princes and bureaucrats to embrace the story to more easily exploit poor/minorities, though.
>>544360025>If it was created as a painting on glass and applied it could indeed be done with extreme levels of detail, being life sized. Miniature painting was by the time the people who say it's faked, very highly developed too.If it was that simple, it would have been duplicated today. Even the BEST imitation fails: >>544359810
>>5443599461. The Historical Impossibility of a 13th-Century OriginThe narrative claim that the Shroud first originated as a 13th-century creation or corpse is historically and forensically impossible. This is definitively proven by the exact architectural and geometric footprint of the cloth appearing across centuries of art and historical documentation long before the 1200s:• The Mandylion and the 250 Points of Geometric Symmetry: Forensic, optical, and mathematical tracking have compared the face on the Shroud of Turin to the earliest recorded historical icon of Christ, known as the Mandylion of Edessa (historically documented as early as the 6th century). Utilizing advanced polarized image overlay techniques, scientists discovered over 250 points of strict geometric alignment between the Shroud face and the Mandylion face. The alignment includes identical eye spacing, nose length, lip structure, and hair parting lines, mathematically proving that the 6th-century Byzantine artists were copying the exact facial dimensions of the Shroud of Turin.• The Pray Codex (1192–1195 CE): Preserved in the National Széchényi Library in Budapest, the Pray Codex is a Hungarian illuminated manuscript that explicitly predates the 13th century. The manuscript contains detailed illustrations of the burial of Christ that depict distinct physical anomalies unique only to the Shroud of Turin: a herringbone weave pattern identical to the Shroud cloth, a fully nude figure with arms crossed over the pelvis, a missing thumb on the left hand (caused by a nail piercing the median nerve at the wrist), and four distinct L-shaped burn holes matching the exact position of pre-medieval "poker burns" present on the real Shroud fabric. A 13th-century French artisan could not retroactively inspire an intricate, anatomically specific painting created in Hungary a century prior.
>>544360028>popular mythological figureSo you don't believe Jesus existed? Enjoy your seat at the retard table. 99% of historians believe he existed
>>544355966This. I went to the church of the shroud in the offseason at closing time and it was nice
>>544360006>You are insane and a retard.Because I don't believe that the Shroud of Turin found in 13th century France came from Jesus who died 13 centuries earlier, in a different part of the world? Okay anon. This has reached a point where you are being so fucking stupid that I have run out of things to say. You cannot be reasoned with, I'm convinced of that now. Good luck with your dead Jewish superheros
>>544359940>some guy failed>therefore it's proven to be realnot good enough>>544359974>projection distortionif an image was painted on glass it could be developed as a series of prototypes and the projection could be refined empirically until it was of the right proportion, it's truly a masterwork if human created, but not 'impossible' to duplicate by any means even without reagentsit's neat though it has nothing to do with salvation of the eternal soul
>>544359699Ok, I have have already described how you can make an image on linen without the use of dye, pigment, or ink. The point is that people can make images without dye, pigment, or ink while still using the colloquial term painted to describe to process of embedding the image in the linen instead of literally using paint.
>>5443600882. Anatomical Precision and the Gospel MatchThe assertion that this could be just any random corpse from the 1300s ignores the microscopic medical precision of the trauma, which matches the unique sequence of events surrounding Jesus of Nazareth.• Microscopic Muscle Contractions: Forensic pathologists analyzing the Shroud have identified microscopic, highly specific muscle contractions and physiological distortions across the body. The swelling of the face, the path of the blood trickling down the arms at exact angles of suspension (differing by several degrees as the victim pushed up to breathe), and the rigidity of the corpse all reflect a real human body undergoing the precise agony of crucifixion. A medieval forge cannot duplicate microscopic, subsurface cellular trauma.• The Specific Sequence of Trauma: The body features a highly irregular series of wounds that explicitly mirror the unique Gospel narrative rather than standard Roman practice. This includes a full "helmet" of thorn punctures across the scalp, an excessive pre-crucifixion scourging of over 120 distinct marks, intact leg bones (bypassing crurifragium), and a post-mortem side puncture between the 5th and 6th ribs that leaked a distinct mixture of blood and clear pericardial fluid.3. Concession on the 3D Photographic PropertiesFurthermore, by completely ignoring the fact that the Shroud acts as an ancient 3D negative photograph, you have conceded that core point. You have made no attempt to explain how a 13th-century artisan could create a superficial image that contains no pigments, lines, or binders, yet holds isotropic grayscale data that maps smoothly into an anatomically perfect 3D relief. Since you chose to completely duck the substance of this unique photographic and spatial data, your refusal to address it stands as an admission that your position cannot account for it.
>>544360099>Because I don't believe that the Shroud of Turin found in 13th century France came from Jesus who died 13 centuriesNo, because you think some 13th century artist crucified and roman whipped some guy to use him as his Shroud model.
>>5443601214. The Physical and Energy Profiling ImpossibilityThe argument that a 13th-century creator simply faked the cloth ignores the laws of modern physics and thermodynamics. The closest modern scientists have ever come to duplicating the unique chemical and physical properties of the image was achieved during testing by the Italian National Agency for New Technologies (ENEA):• The Laser Radiation Finding: ENEA scientists discovered that the microscopic, sub-micron coloration on the outermost cell walls of the linen flax fibers could not be achieved by chemical contact, paint, vapor, or heat conductive contact. The only mechanism capable of reproducing the exact coloration thickness, uniformity, and chemical oxidation profile was short-duration pulses of vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) laser radiation.• The Power Requirement: To generate an image covering a full human body size with the superficial depth found on the Shroud requires an instantaneous radiation power output calculated between 38 billion and 34 trillion watts of energy. This immense burst of light power is equivalent to focusing the instantaneous electrical output of all modern human civilization combined down into a single point for a fraction of a second. A 13th-century artisan could not manipulate advanced ultraviolet radiation or harness power grid capacities that exceed the industrial limits of the 21st century.
>>544360170References:• Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., Santoni, A., Fanti, G., Nichelatti, E., & Baldacchini, G. (2010). "Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Shroud of Turin Image." Journal of Imaging Science and Technology, Vol. 54, No. 4, pp. 040502-1.• Baldacchini, G., Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., & Santoni, A. (2008). "Coloring Linens with Excimer Lasers to Simulate the Shroud of Turin Image." ENEA Scientific Technical Report, RT/2008/39/FIM, pp. 1-15.• Whanger, A. D., & Whanger, M. (1985). "Polarized Image Overlay Technique: A New Tool for Investigating the Shroud of Turin." Applied Optics, Vol. 24, No. 6, pp. 766-772.• Bela, A. (1986). "The Burial Illustration of the Hungarian Pray Manuscript (1192-1195) and the Shroud of Turin." International Shroud Congress Proceedings, pp. 88-94.• Zugibe, F. T. (2005). The Crucifixion of Jesus: A Forensic Inquiry. M. Evans & Company.
>>544360063>If it was that simple, it would have been duplicated today.I don't know, it seems the attempt laid out above was comically absurdly low effort, almost as if they got a dude to do it wrong, without imagination or skill, and then extrapolated this guy's failure to "and nobody CAN duplicate it because this one SCIENTICIAN failed and he's the best!" type scam.It smacks of scammery. >>544360112The lack of dye or ink or pigments or whatever, doesn't prove anything one way or the other as you say. Albumen and glue could both have been used and then washed completely away during a long process.
>>544360025Pray codex, late 1100s, has a depiction of the image of Edessa from Byzantium, a known relic already at the time. It has unique details exclusive to the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin = Image of Edessa. The Image of Edessa can easily be traced centuries backward to the original burial of Jesus and the original preservation of his burial linen. It's actually a very well supported historical line as far as ancient artifacts go.>>544360028>exploit poor/minoritiesLol, what is this faggot even doing here? Get this guy outta here already!I told you guys this was the easiest seethe generator. I've made this thread 4-5 times over the past couple years and it generates the exact same seething and coping every time. I never even see new arguments, just people ignoring basic details and realities of the Shroud every time. That's probably the most convincing evidence of anything. I can't get this many (You)s sperging out with basically any other topic.
>>544360195>I don't know, it seems the attempt laid out above was comically absurdly low effort,It seems like the Italian guy did everything he could think of. What do you think could have been more high effort?> "and nobody CAN duplicate it because this one SCIENTICIAN failed and he's the best!" type scam.He got the closest, others failed miserably.
>>544359966>Post it, you must have access to hidden information I don't.https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Shroud%20of%20Turin%20Replica
>>544355776jebus was the first zomby.
>>544360262A "REPLICA" is not the same as an "EXACT DUPLICATION" you fucking retard.
>>544358857>>5443601121. The Scientific Illiteracy of the "Resist and Wash" TheoryThe claim that an artist used egg albumen as a chemical resist to paint the Shroud and then washed it away is completely contradicted by forensic chemistry. If organic proteins like albumen had been applied to the porous linen, they would bind tightly to the flax cellulose and leave distinct chemical residues that no amount of washing could erase.When the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) conducted exhaustive microchemical testing and pyrolysis-mass spectrometry directly on the image fibers, they found absolutely zero traces of albumens, proteinaceous binders, animal glues, starches, or oils.Furthermore, any painting or washing technique relies on a liquid medium. Capillary action dictates that a liquid will automatically soak deep into the core of a woven linen thread. On the actual Shroud, the image color is strictly superficial, existing only on the primary cell wall of the outermost fibers at a thickness of less than 500 nanometers—leaving the inner core of the exact same threads completely white and pristine. There is no paint, ink, or pigment creating the image; the color is entirely a structural degradation—a low-temperature oxidation and dehydration—of the linen itself.
>>5443603012. The Failure of Modern Replication and the Energy ProfileThe assertion that creating this image is a basic technique within the grasp of a medieval master artist is completely detached from modern scientific reality. To this day, despite decades of attempts by elite teams of secular skeptics and laboratories using advanced modern technology, the Shroud's image has never been successfully duplicated or fully explained.The absolute closest modern science has ever come to replicating the precise sub-micron, non-penetrating surface coloration of the Shroud was achieved by the Italian National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (ENEA).After years of testing various artistic and chemical methods, the ENEA laboratories discovered that the unique physical properties of the Shroud image could only be replicated using vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) excimer lasers. According to their published calculations, to instantly color the surface of a full human body shape at that microscopic depth without burning or penetrating the fabric requires an instantaneous light radiation pulse with a peak power of 38 billion to 34 trillion watts. This immense burst of light energy is equivalent to focusing the instantaneous electrical output of all modern human civilization combined down into a single point for a fraction of a second. A medieval artisan could not manipulate ultraviolet radiation or harness power grid capacities that exceed the industrial limits of the 21st century.
>>544360262I wonder how long it took you to desperately try to find something that actually reflected the unique properties I described to you multiple times now, and when you lost this was the best you could come up with in lieu of any real response.I LOVE btfo'ing these smug arrogant retards every time. It's like redditor kryptonite. Christ is King.
>>544360022Why not? How thick beyond .2mm does light have penetrate using that method and how thick does a 2d image have to be to have 3d details encoded?
>>5443603233. The Absurdity of "Stylistic Analysis" for a Photographic NegativeThe suggestion that art historians can simply use "stylistic analysis" to identify a candidate artist betrays a fundamental lack of reading comprehension regarding what the Shroud actually is. Stylistic analysis relies on identifying brush strokes, paint composition, pigments, directional lines, boundaries, and artistic mannerisms.The Shroud of Turin contains absolutely none of these features. It is not an artifact with defined edges or applied mediums. Instead, it is an isotropic, blurred 3D negative photograph where the image intensity varies smoothly based on the exact physical distance between a three-dimensional body and a cloth. Because it lacks any artistic style, brushmarks, or chemical profile of a painting, it is forensically impossible to categorize it within any historical art movement or match it to an individual artist's hand.References:• Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., Santoni, A., Fanti, G., Nichelatti, E., & Baldacchini, G. (2010). "Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Shroud of Turin Image." Journal of Imaging Science and Technology, Vol. 54, No. 4, pp. 040502-1.• Baldacchini, G., Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., & Santoni, A. (2008). "Coloring Linens with Excimer Lasers to Simulate the Shroud of Turin Image." ENEA Scientific Technical Report, RT/2008/39/FIM, pp. 1-15.• Heller, J. H., & Adler, A. D. (1981). "A Chemical Investigation of the Shroud of Turin." Canadian Society of Forensic Science Journal, Vol. 14, No. 3, pp. 81-103.• Jumper, E. J., Adler, A. D., Jackson, J. P., Pellicori, S. F., Heller, J. H., & Druzik, J. R. (1984). "A Comprehensive Examination of the Various Stain and Images on the Shroud of Turin." Archaeological Chemistry III, American Chemical Society, pp. 447-476.
>>544358894God is everywhere, but heaven and gehenna are not the same place. That is wrong.
>>544360090No they don't and even if they did, at one point 99% of polled historians also believed the earth was only 2000 years old because that is what they were told as children, so its not much beyond anecdotal and appealing to authority what a few historians believe without physical evidence.
>>544360275A spirit does not have flesh and bones and may not eat.
>>544360125>No, because you think some 13th century artist crucified and roman whipped some guy to use him as his Shroud model.Prove that didn't happen then. You are the one claiming that it's the Shroud of Turin pulled off the face of Jesus Christ who died 13 centuries prior. Yet you provide no evidence to demonstrate how the body of Jesus and the Shroud of Turin moved from Jerusalem to France, and you attack anybody who gives an explanation that would make it make sense. So how did it happen anon? How did the body of Jesus (never been identified) move from Jerusalem to France? Why is an alternative explanation somehow less likely than the conclusion you've started with, about the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin? You have no good explanation for 13 centuries of missing evidence, and attacking people who provide one isn't doing your side any favors to convince anybody that you are correct here.
>>544360406>No they don'tYes they do. Might as well say the earth is flat while you're at it.> at one point 99% of polled historians also believed the earth was only 2000 years old When was this?> so its not much beyond anecdotal and appealing to authority what a few historians believe without physical evidence.Tacitus wrote about Jesus you fucking retard.
>>544360230>It seems like the Italian guy did everything he could think of. What do you think could have been more high effort?As I've stated several times, if it's fake, and I don't mind one way or the other, it's a true masterwork. And it seems from just one glance at the Italian guy's attempt, that he lacks the skill to execute a masterwork. And the critique seems partially aimed at this. We no longer have master painters such as they used to. They simply do not exist any more.>He got the closest, others failed miserably.They've all failed no doubt because these are mainly scientists or people guided by them and bound within certain rules and frameworks, I don't know all the details and don't really care. But it's clear that none of the involved parties possess the artistic talent and mastery that would be necessary for such an image to be perfectly replicated.Even masters themselves who would paint several versions of the same painting, did not replicate their own work identically. So this benchmark fails from several perspectives. But no they don't make master artists any more, nobody will succeed to make a version of this using the approaches taken. Only a contact print with glass will have the detail and resolution, but also be completely within the technological capabilities of the era, and leaving no trace behind.>>544360301>they would bind tightly to the flax cellulose and leave distinct chemical residues that no amount of washing could eraseBullshit. And in any event it's not necessary, contact printing could do it using sunlight, no reagents, paints, inks, resists needed.>>544360323>After years of testing various artistic and chemical methods, the ENEA laboratories discovered that the unique physical properties of the Shroud image could only be replicated using vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) excimer lasers.Balderdash lel. This is comical balderdash.
>>544360104>all of modern scientists and skeptics who have ever attempted to replicate/disprove in the shroud>"some guy"Illiterate, uneducated, and embarrassing.
>>544360414>Prove that didn't happen then.So you want me to prove that some 13th century artist didn't crucify and roman whip somebody? Other in this thread claimed the forger confessed, did he confess to this too? You are legit insane.>You have no good explanation for 13 centuries of missing evidence,It was in a cave somewhere, then found. It's happened before. (see Dead Sea Scrolls)
>>544360219>just people ignoring basic details and realities of the Shroud every timYou mean like how you ignore that it didn't pop up into history until hundreds of years after it was supposedly created or you ignore that the bible only mentions a completely different veil with the face of jesus that nobody ever talks about because it is more obviously forged in an age when there were dozens of holy foreskins floating around various churches?
>>544360291That wasn't the bar >>544359214, nothing can be "exactly duplicated" since the same exact atoms/molecules can't be in two places at once.
>>544360470>As I've stated several times, if it's fake, and I don't mind one way or the other, it's a true masterwork.It's not just a masterwork, it's a scientific anomaly. You aren't getting that. It can't be duplicated today.> I don't know all the details and don't really care.Then why are you here?>But it's clear that none of the involved parties possess the artistic talent and mastery that would be necessary for such an image to be perfectly replicated.So the artist in the 13th century had to be>a masterwork artist>an expert on human anatomy and the wounds that occur from crucifixion and razor whips>and an expert on blood application in relation to woundsSure thing
>>544360494>So you want me to prove that some 13th century artist didn't crucify and roman whip somebody? Other in this thread claimed the forger confessed, did he confess to this too? You are legit insane.Retard I want you to prove your original claim: that the Shroud of Turin found in 13th century France is somehow pulled off the corpse of Jesus who died in Jerusalem 1,300 years prior to then. >It was in a cave somewhere, then found. It's happened before. (see Dead Sea Scrolls)Laughable. This is convincing for you? This is your cope for over one thousand years of missing evidence.
>>544360567>nothing can be "exactly duplicated" since the same exact atoms/molecules can't be in two places at once.Listen to yourself you fucking retard. We aren't talking about the subatomic level. We are talking about an image on a cloth and how it got there.You are so fucking SAD.
>>5443604701. The Historical and Practical Failure of "Hypothetical" ReplicationThe claim that it is simple to create the Shroud using a basic contact print or solar exposure completely collapses when confronted with the actual history of Shroud skepticism. There is no shortage of highly motivated skeptics, secular organizations, and elite laboratories who have set out over the decades with the explicit goal of proving the cloth is a human forgery. If a straightforward, low-tech method like a sunlight contact print were truly capable of matching the relic, it would have been successfully replicated, peer-reviewed, and settled by now.Instead, every single attempt to forge a matching replica using contact prints, sunlight, or historical mediums has failed to duplicate the cloth's signature physical properties. When skeptics create replicas using contact transfers, they are forced to use heat, chemicals, vapors, or pressure.Every single one of these methods leaves clear forensic tracks—such as capillary bleeding, deep thread penetration, or chemical margins—that are completely absent from the actual Shroud. The reason these theoretical models remain unproven hypotheticals is because whenever they are tested in a lab, the physics of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics prove them wrong.
>>544360582>that the Shroud of Turin found in 13th century France is somehow pulled off the corpse of Jesus who died in Jerusalem 1,300 years prior to then.My theory is it was found and brought to France. That's better than your Shroud artist killed a guy theory.>Laughable. This is convincing for you?So it happened once, but can't happen again?
>>5443606002. The Failed "Solar Proto-Photography" ExperimentsYour argument that this specific solar/glass method has already been tried and thoroughly debunked is exactly right. This theory was formally tested by researchers like South African art historian Nicholas Allen, who attempted to prove the Shroud was a medieval "proto-photograph" created by coating linen with silver salts and exposing it to sunlight inside a room-sized camera obscura.When independent scientists and imaging experts subjected this actual solar-printed replica to forensic analysis, it failed on multiple objective points:• Directional Light Shadows: Because Allen's method required days of solar exposure, the resulting image showed harsh, distinct directional lighting and heavy shadows cast by the sun's angle. The real Shroud of Turin contains absolutely zero directional shadows or external light source signatures.
>>544360639• Sharp, Defined Edges: A solar contact print or photographic exposure leaves a sharp, distinct silhouette edge where the light meets the block. The image on the real Shroud has no defined edges or borders; under magnification, the coloration gradually fades into the background on a sub-micron level.• The VP-8 3D Test Failure: When Allen's solar-printed cloths were processed through a VP-8 Image Analyzer, they completely failed to yield a true human relief. Because light scatters across the air gaps under a sheet of glass, a solar print creates a flat, binary, distorted map rather than the mathematically perfect, distance-correlated 3D map embedded inside the real Shroud.References:• Schwortz, B. M. (2000). "Is the Shroud of Turin a Medieval Photograph? A Critical Examination of the Theory." Shroud Science Group Technical Monograph, pp. 1-12.• Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., Santoni, A., Fanti, G., Nichelatti, E., & Baldacchini, G. (2010). "Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Shroud of Turin Image." Journal of Imaging Science and Technology, Vol. 54, No. 4, pp. 040502-1.• Jackson, J. P., Jumper, E. J., & Ercoline, W. R. (1984). "Correlation of Image Intensity on the Shroud of Turin with 3-D Structure of a Human Body Shape." Applied Optics, Vol. 23, No. 14, pp. 2244-2270.• Heller, J. H., & Adler, A. D. (1981). "A Chemical Investigation of the Shroud of Turin." Canadian Society of Forensic Science Journal, Vol. 14, No. 3, pp. 81-103.
>>544360025botcan't read images, no?can you digest video? how about the jew in charge of photography for that original study>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G4sj8hUVaYexplain the blood analysis
>>544360332>I wonder how longMakes sense that people who believe in fairy tales are too retarded to calculate time changes with time stamps as if shitty mass produced laser printers don't come pretty close already at around 1 millimeters thick.
>>544360626You're focusing on the wrong thing. Even if he did kill a guy, how did he invent negative 3d photography and time travel to inspire other images from centuries prior with 250 points of geometric symmetry with the Shroud? (60 points of symmetry is enough to identify/convict a murderer)
>>544355776Jews don't have magic powers, resurrection isn't real. Religion is a mental illness.
>>544355776>>544355850Guys watch this short 4 minute gospel video if you want to be 100% sure of going to heaven after you die. https://youtu.be/qME9ynKt8e4?si=wugKFSt5RkPOZUjHMust watch video for Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and Evangelical churchgoers.
>>544360698>Even if he did kill a guy, how did he invent negative 3d photographyThat's above the other anon. I will give him credit, his "some artist killed a guy and used his body" is new to me.
>>544360707>Religion is a mental illness.Good thing we have atheists that believe in>900 genders>men getting pregnant>taking 40 vax shots for a non-lethal flu
>>544360354>Instead, it is an isotropic, blurred 3D negative photograph where the image intensity varies smoothly based on the exact physical distance between a three-dimensional body and a cloth.Or a piece of glass, lel. >>544360489Logically, even if some group of people fail to do something, it doesn't prove it isn't possible. Even the uneducated will realize this. It seems some were working along comically awful lines, as if they were meant to fail. If the Shroud is the product of human ingenuity, it certainly would have taken a master to create it. This, as I said above, is another issue with modern attempts to re-create it. We simply have no masters capable of such things, any more. But the failures heretofore do not prove that it's a miraculous image by any stretch of the imagination.>>544360568>It's not just a masterwork, it's a scientific anomaly.Not really.>It can't be duplicated today.Baloney, it happens every day, all over the world. An image of something set on a piece of cloth blocks the UV damage.>>544360600>so far the people who tried failedThis proves nothing. Some of the attempts you copy pasted into the thread, are comically bad. It seems like there must be hundreds of "experts" who tried this and all failed. >signature physical propertieskek more balderdash your thing you're copy pasting even has an admission that the "experts" ran out of patience and tried to cheat, lel, this is why they are "unproven hypotheses" lelthis is terrible, intellectually dishonest nonsense you're pushing and all the proofs rely on logical errors and wild extrapolations>>544360659i'm not watching some faggot video as homework, jew
>>544360762>Not really.Then why can't it be duplicated.>Baloney, it happens every day, all over the world.Science still can't explain how the image got on their. You are legit sad.
>>5443598291. The Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS) First-Century MatchThe narrative claim that the Shroud is structurally bound to a 14th-century timeline has been empirically disproven by a breakthrough dating method utilizing advanced X-ray physics. Led by Dr. Liberato De Caro at Italy's Institute of Crystallography of the National Research Council (CNR), a landmark study analyzed the fabric via Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS). This non-destructive technique measures the structural, long-term natural aging and degradation of the crystalline structure inside the flax cellulose fibers. Because this natural aging follows an approximately linear timeline over thousands of years, it allows scientists to map the precise structural maturity of ancient textiles.De Caro’s team calibrated their WAXS data against a vast profile of structurally cataloged linen artifacts spanning millennia. When the Shroud sample was tested, its cellulose degradation profile completely failed to line up with any medieval samples. Instead, it matched to an identical degree a control linen sample recovered from the historic fortress of Masada, Israel, which is securely documented to 55–74 AD. This places the production of the Shroud cloth directly in the first century, during the exact historical era of Jesus of Nazareth.
>>544355776Chriggers gonna chrig
>>5443608012. The Statistical Manipulation of the 13th-Century DataThe reason the WAXS structural profiles contradict the 1988 carbon-14 dating is that the original 1988 protocols were mathematically invalid and heavily suppressed. For nearly 30 years, the raw, individual measurement data collected by the laboratories was withheld from public view and peer review. Following a successful multi-year legal action launched under the Freedom of Information Act, the raw data records were finally pried from the British Museum and published in the peer-reviewed journal Archaeometry in 2019.The raw data revealed that the three testing laboratories (Oxford, Zurich, and Arizona) had produced dates that were completely heterogeneous. The individual measurements fluctuated wildly between the samples, demonstrating an impermissible statistical variance across the fabric. Rather than publishing a clear, uniform timeline, the laboratories performed a series of statistical averaging adjustments to force the highly unstable data into a cohesive public bracket of 1260–1390 AD. Serious modern statistical analysts and even prominent secular skeptics now reject the 1988 data pool as a mathematically flawed, pseudoscientific construction that failed to pass the basic rules of rigorous academic peer review.
>>544360626>My theory is it was found and brought to FranceHow did that happen, anon? It's not a "theory" if you provide no substantial explanation that can be examined & tested. Fucking moron using words you don't even understand>That's better than your Shroud artist killed a guy theory.No it's not. My theory makes sense. French people doing French things, to each other in France, where the "Shroud of Turin" was found. I don't have to make a bunch of excuses for 1300 years of no evidence for my theory to make sense either, unlike you. Christians throughout medieval Europe were prolific torture artists.>So it happened once, but can't happen again?Why should I believe it happened for some dead Jew? Because other dead Jews said so? I'm not spiritually Jewish and I don't believe in Jewish prophets.
>>5443608263. The Forensic Sampling Error: Raes Corner and the Invisible RepairThe structural reason the 1988 carbon dating failed is that the protocol for cutting fabric from multiple, disparate zones of the Shroud was abandoned. Instead, a single, highly contaminated strip was hacked from the far top-left corner of the cloth, adjacent to the historically compromised Raes Corner. Forensic textile experts have demonstrated that this specific area—the corner most heavily handled by human hands over centuries of public exhibitions—was not part of the original linen shroud fabric.Instead, it contains an expert, microscopic medieval intervention known as "French Invisible Reweaving". Following severe damage from historical events like the 1532 Chambery fire, specialized artisans meticulously repaired the frayed edges of the relic. They interwoven 14th-century European cotton and dyed linen threads directly into the ancient first-century fabric weave to reinforce the border. By testing only a single sample snipped directly from this repaired section, the 1988 laboratories dated a hybrid mixture of modern contamination and medieval patch fabric rather than the shroud itself.References:• De Caro, L., Sibillano, T., Lassandro, R., Fanti, G., & Giannini, C. (2022). "X-ray Dating of a Turin Shroud's Linen Sample." Heritage, Vol. 5, No. 2, pp. 860–870.• Casabianca, T., Marinelli, E., Pernagallo, G., & Torrisi, B. (2019). "Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin: New Chemical and Statistical Analyses." Archaeometry, Vol. 61, No. 5, pp. 1223–1231.• Benford, M. S., & Marino, J. G. (2008). "Discrepancies in the Radiocarbon Dating Area of the Shroud of Turin." Chemistry Today, Vol. 26, No. 4, pp. 4–12.• Rogers, R. N. (2005). "Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin." Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 425, No. 1-2, pp. 189–194.
>>544360449>Might as well say the earth is flat while you're at it.They have said that too and you clearly would agree if someone could find a sample of historians that had a 99% consensus that it was.>When was this?Most of Pre-18th Century history.>Tacitus wrote about Jesus you fucking retard.In Germania, Tacitus wrote about Hercules too, you fucking retard.
>>544360840You do have to explain how 13th century French forgers invented negative 3d photography though, as well as time travel, since the Mandylion of Edessa and several images from hundreds of years before then have 250 points of geometric symmetry with the Shroud, and 60 points of symmetry is enough to identify/convict a murderer.
>>544360840>How did that happen, anon?Found in a cave, or a box somewhere, or maybe some guy kept it and passed it down to his kid and the kid said "fuck it, I'm going to try and cash in in France">It's not a "theory" if you provide no substantial explanation that can be examined & tested. It's better than your "he killed a guy" theory.> My theory makes sense. French people doing French thingsCrucifying a guy and hitting him with ROMAN razor whips is a French thing?>Why should I believe it happened for some dead Jew?Not what I asked.
>>544360868>Most of Pre-18th Century history.So you are basing 200 years ago on the current year?>In Germania, Tacitus wrote about Hercules too, you fucking retard."Visit to Germany: In chapter 3 of Tacitus Germania, Tacitus writes that the Germanic tribes claimed Hercules once traveled among them."He didn't say Hercules was executed by a Roman leader.
>>544360599>We are talking about an image on a clothNo, you aren't talking about the image itself, you have made it clear you don't actually care about the actual image replication because you are hyper-fixating on some detail about .2 microns of detail even though this cloth has clearly been ravaged by time and the top layers have all decayed away in the ensuing hundreds of years since its original production.
>>544360795>Then why can't it be duplicated.As I said, there are no masters any more. For example the image above which is critiqued as lacking detail, is obviously by the hand of somebody who is NOT a master, because they don't exist any more. You can just tell. Then, circularly, they dismiss the attempt, not because of a technical failure, but because they didn't like his brushwork lel.This is a logical error and a failure of the reasoning process. It's enough to show that an image can be made - and it happens every day all over the world as I said, with the case of UV damage and it being blocked by objects atop cloths - without achieving the level of technical mastery which simply can't be done today, as all the masters are dead and have been for quite some time.It's dishonest, it's scummy. People who can't elucadate exactly why, even low IQ people, can feel it's scummy. I know the exact failures in logic and honesty and critique, so I can point them out and will.>Science still can't explain how the image got on their.Yes it can, simply selectively blocking sunlight will do the trick. There is no need for such nonsense as trilithium laser beams outputting the entire sum total of human "energy" or any such scammy, dressed up nonsense jargon to explain it.It would be best to NEVER mention such things in intelligent company, if you want to convince the Shroud could be real. Maybe it is! I don't have a super strong opinion either way. But what I know, is that it is quite possible to duplicate today even if a technical masterpiece grade quality reproduction hasn't been made - and it won't be because the masters are all dead and gone.Faberge eggs are a miracle by the same logic. You CAN'T replicate one. Go ahead and try!
>>544360991>.2 micronsWhen did I ever say this? Post it.
>>544360746see>>544359538You are literally citing the Talmud and blaming atheists for what it says, you disingenuous cryptojew.
>>544360911>Found in a cave, or a box somewhere, or maybe some guy kept it and passed it down to his kid and the kid said "fuck it, I'm going to try and cash in in France"Your 'maybe' theory is dogshit and less likely than mine, still. >It's better than your "he killed a guy" theory.French people killed French people. That's not a theory that's a fact I provided you to support my theory. Your theory relies on 1300 years of nebulous "maybe" to compensate for literally 0 facts. Shut the fuck up lmao>Crucifying a guy and hitting him with ROMAN razor whips is a French thing?Do you think French people don't know how to whip someone? Do you assume French people in 13th century didn't know about Roman torture methods? They were Christian. It's a Christian tradition. >Not what I asked.You asked a stupid question trying to make a point that failed. Also a question isn't evidence, anon.
>>544361007>As I said, there are no masters any more.And as I said, everything from 500-1000 years ago that was man made can be duplicated>and it happens every day all over the world as I saidScience disagrees, but sure.>simply selectively blocking sunlight will do the trick. Then why don't they do it right now?>Faberge eggs are a miracle by the same logic. You CAN'T replicate one. Go ahead and try!But an expert can replicate them, and tell you what they are made of exactly.You are a legit retard.
>>5443607621. The Logical Absurdity of the "UV Block" and "Glass" MythThe claim that creating the Shroud "happens every day, all over the world" by placing an object on a piece of cloth to "block UV damage" represents a total collapse of basic physics and optics. This theory outlines a standard sun-bleaching silhouette effect, which is functionally and structurally the exact opposite of what exists on the Shroud of Turin:• Positive Silhouettes vs. Continuous Grayscale Negatives: When an object is placed on a cloth under the sun, it acts as a stencil. The uncovered cloth fades or yellows in the sun, while the covered portion remains unchanged. This produces a binary, flat positive silhouette with sharp, distinct edges where the light meets the block. The Shroud of Turin is a continuous-tone negative image with no distinct borders or sharp edges whatsoever. The image intensity does not show a flat block; it varies smoothly across thousands of microscopic gradations based entirely on the three-dimensional contours of a human body.• The Air-Gap Scatter Problem: If a sheet of glass is placed over a three-dimensional human body or statue, the glass only touches the highest physical features (like the bridge of the nose and the cheekbones). For the rest of the body, a dynamic air gap remains between the glass and the flesh. Sunlight passing through glass instantly scatters and diffuses through this air gap. Without an advanced system of optical focusing lenses, the scattered light completely erases all sharp spatial details. Sunlight through a piece of glass cannot physically record microscopic details like the individual weave of a cloth, hair strands, and anatomically precise whip marks across varying air gaps.
>>5443610882. The Statistical Illiteracy of Dismissing Collective Scientific FailureThe argument that "even if a group of people fail to do something, it doesn't prove it isn't possible" is an empty philosophical deflection that completely misunderstands the empirical nature of the scientific method. While a single failure proves nothing, the replicated, systematic failure of countless independent laboratories, textile experts, and highly motivated secular skeptics over a span of several decades points to a definitive physical barrier.This is quite literally how science works—the scientific method is built entirely on empirical verification and reproducible experimentation. To argue that a technological feat was effortlessly achieved in medieval times using basic tools, yet remains completely un-reproducible by modern scientists equipped with electricity, supercomputers, and advanced instrumentation, is a massive logical failure. If the method were possible with primitive means, modern technology would have easily simulated and mastered it by now.The assertion that modern attempts fail simply because we "no longer have master painters like we used to" is an unscientific cop-out. The scientific community is not measuring the Shroud's "artistic mastery or beauty"; they are measuring its raw physical, chemical, and sub-micron properties. The fact that skeptics run out of patience and are forced to resort to "cheating" with heat or acid blocks during replication attempts actually proves the opposite of his point. It demonstrates that when researchers strictly adhere to the physical constraints of the real Shroud—specifically, a uniform coloration restricted to the outer 200–500 nanometers of the flax cell wall with zero pigments, zero binders, and mathematically precise 3D spatial encoding—the laws of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics render basic human hand-application methods impossible.
>>5443611023. The Objective Reality of the ENEA Laser ProfilingDismissing peer-reviewed quantum electronic data from a national research laboratory as "comical balderdash" is a purely emotional defense mechanism that cannot cope with hard physical data. This research was not conducted by a niche religious group, but by elite, secular laser physicists at the ENEA (Italian National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development).• The Peer-Reviewed Data: The ENEA teams tested every conceivable chemical, mechanical, and artistic method before concluding that short-duration pulses of vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) excimer laser radiation are the only known mechanism in physics capable of reproducing the ultra-superficial, non-penetrating coloration depth found on the Shroud.• The Power Calculations: To instantly color a linen surface equivalent to a full human body size with the superficial depth found on the Shroud requires an instantaneous radiation power output calculated between 38 billion and 34 trillion watts of energy. This calculation is a matter of strict mathematical thermodynamics. To claim a medieval artisan or a simple sheet of glass under the sun could manipulate radiation intensities that rival or exceed the instantaneous capacity of all modern electrical grids on Earth combined is completely uneducated and unscientific nonsense.
>>544361062>Your 'maybe' theory is dogshit and less likely than mine, still.Sure thing, even though mine happened before.>French people killed French people. All people kill all people. But you think some genius French artist crucified and ROMAN whipped a guy to make the Shroud? RETARDED>Do you think French people don't know how to whip someone?Hence why I said ROMAN razor whips.You are legit insane. But I will give you credit for being original.You still can't explain how the 13th century murdered artist made the Shroud.
>>5443611264. The Secular and Unbiased Profile of the Original STURP TeamThe internet rumor that the Shroud’s physical properties were validated exclusively by biased, religious zealots trying to manufacture a miracle is completely contradicted by historical and professional records. When the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) was formed in 1978, the team was deliberately assembled as a multi-disciplinary, international group of 33 elite scientists.The primary investigators did not operate from a Christian bias, and many actively set out with the explicit intent to expose the relic as a fraud:• Barrie Schwortz (Official STURP Documentation Photographer): Schwortz was born and raised in a devout Orthodox Jewish family. When he was initially recruited to join the STURP team, he openly protested to the leadership, asking why a Jewish man should get involved with what was likely a fabricated Christian relic. He remained an absolute skeptic for nearly two decades of photographic and forensic analysis, only changing his stance when the chemical data definitively ruled out the presence of any paint or artistic mediums.
>>544360959>So you are basing 200 years ago on the current year?What? No I am basing a distrust of consensus historical claims on historical claims regularly being falsified by physical evidence.>He didn't say Hercules was executed by a Roman leader.Because the story of Hercules isn't about Hercules being executed by a roman leader, its about his traveling among the people, so if you believe Jesus was executed by a Roman leader because Tacitus wrote about it, then you also have to believe Zeus had a son named Hercules who walked among the German people on the same basis.
>>544361169• Dr. Alan Adler and Dr. John Heller (STURP Blood Chemists): Dr. Alan Adler was a highly respected Jewish physical chemist specializing in porphyrin chemistry. Dr. John Heller was a secular New England blood scientist who initially joined the team entirely convinced that the Shroud was a basic medieval painting. Working together, their rigorous microchemical testing proved that the red stains on the cloth were actual human blood containing hemoglobin, albumin, and high levels of bilirubin, completely lacking any chemical indicators of artistic binders, pigments, or dyes.• Ray Rogers (Lead STURP Chemist): Rogers was a thermal chemist from the Los Alamos National Laboratory who operated from a completely non-sectarian, secular standpoint. He explicitly stated that his initial motivation for joining the team was to use chemistry to quickly and decisively prove the artifact was a medieval fake. Neither he nor the dozens of NASA and nuclear weapons laboratory physicists on the team had any financial, religious, or personal motivation to validate the relic.
>>544361190>What? No I am basing a distrust of consensus historical claims on historical claims regularly being falsified by physical evidence.So because it happened 200+ years ago, it must be happening now?>Because the story of Hercules isn't about Hercules being executed by a roman leader, its about his traveling among the people, so if you believe Jesus was executed by a Roman leader because Tacitus wrote about it, then you also have to believe Zeus had a son named Hercules who walked among the German people on the same basis.He said the Germanic tribes CLAIMED, he didn't say CLAIMED when writing about the execution of Jesus.
>>5443612265. The Elite Peer-Review of the Quantum Electronic Laser DataThe peer-reviewed scientific studies confirming that the Shroud's sub-micron coloration can only be simulated by vacuum ultraviolet light were not published in niche, obscure religious magazines. They were conducted by an elite group of secular laser physicists at the ENEA (Italian National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development).Led by Dr. Paolo Di Lazzaro, this state-run nuclear and quantum electronics research facility published its raw findings across the world's most rigorous, secular, and high-impact scientific journals, including The Journal of Imaging Science and Technology (JIST).The peer-review panels for these journals consist entirely of independent, secular, and often highly skeptical physicists, materials scientists, and optical engineers who have zero investment in Christian theology or relic authenticity. These independent reviewers systematically verified the mathematical and thermodynamic calculations proving that a primitive medieval hand-application cannot achieve sub-micron fiber boundaries. The peer-reviewed status of the ENEA research stands as a verified fact of modern quantum physics, which completely refutes the uneducated internet claim that the Shroud's anomalies are unverified "balderdash" or a simple, easily replicated trick.
>>544361249References:• Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., Santoni, A., Fanti, G., Nichelatti, E., & Baldacchini, G. (2010). "Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Shroud of Turin Image." Journal of Imaging Science and Technology, Vol. 54, No. 4, pp. 040502-1.• Baldacchini, G., Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., & Santoni, A. (2008). "Coloring Linens with Excimer Lasers to Simulate the Shroud of Turin Image." ENEA Scientific Technical Report, RT/2008/39/FIM, pp. 1-15.• Jackson, J. P., Jumper, E. J., & Ercoline, W. R. (1984). "Correlation of Image Intensity on the Shroud of Turin with 3-D Structure of a Human Body Shape." Applied Optics, Vol. 23, No. 14, pp. 2244-2270.• Heller, J. H., & Adler, A. D. (1981). "A Chemical Investigation of the Shroud of Turin." Canadian Society of Forensic Science Journal, Vol. 14, No. 3, pp. 81-103.• Schwortz, B. M. (2000). "Is the Shroud of Turin a Medieval Photograph? A Critical Examination of the Theory." Shroud Science Group Technical Monograph, pp. 1-12.
>>544361083>And as I said, everything from 500-1000 years ago that was man made can be duplicatedNot by your own logic. Go ahead and duplicate me a Faberge egg. It CAN'T be done, because it hasn't been. People have tried. Experts. But they all failed in essential ways, stylistic, material, etc.>Science disagrees, but sure.Science says you can't put something atop cloth and let the part not blocked by the object get damaged, but then move the cloth and reveal an undamaged area? Are you shitting me? You're flat out lying here, this isn't even a clever attempt at deception. Or you're tarded.>Then why don't they do it right now?Who is they? For one there are no masters who can create such a masterwork. They all died out. They don't exist any more, there are no more schools which produce them after 25 year apprenticeships starting when the artist candidate is eight or twelve years old like in the times where some contend, the image was created. It's a masterwork, I've said this over and over. Or a miracle! But failures to replicate it EXACTLY don't matter as the technical ability to fake it using just UV light, has been proved conclusively.>But an expert can replicate themNo, they've tried. Many a talented expert faker and museum recreationist have tried their best for well over 150 years.>and tell you what they are made of exactly.So? Same thing with the cloth. It's linen, exactly.>You are a legit retard.You keep repeating the same dogmatic things over and over. At least you aren't copy pasting a bunch of bullshit (with SCIENTIFIC sources!) into the thread like the other retard. Martin Luther was right about Catholics. Papists and Jews are two stockings made of the same yarn.
>>544361132>But you think some genius French artist crucified and ROMAN whipped a guy to make the Shroud? RETARDEDMore retarded than >Found in a cave, or a box somewhere, or maybe some guy kept it and passed it down to his kid and the kid said "fuck it, I'm going to try and cash in in France"? Why do you capitalize "ROMAN" as if it's some mythological identity?>Maybe some guy did some things with a box, and passed it down or something to his kid? In a cave or whatever, and uh then uh they sold it. Then 1300 years later Jesus was in France>Hence why I said ROMAN razor whips.Yeah you keep capitalizing it. Why is that so significant and special, and why do you believe French Christians couldn't put razors on their whips in 13th century when Romans did it a thousand years before them?>You are legit insaneNo I think you're pretty delusional. >You still can't explain how the 13th century murdered artist made the Shroud.You still haven't given any evidence for how Jesus and "Shroud of Turin" moved from 1st century Jerusalem to 13th century France. Therefore we have no reason to believe that this "Shroud of Turin" came from Jesus, based on the shitposts you've made here so far. The burden of proof lies on you, dipshit. Still waiting. >hurr durr some guy with a box maybe passed it down to his kid in a cave!Do better than that, fucking retard. Holy shit.
>>544361007>ancient negative 3d photograph>peer-reviewed thermodynamic studies confirm 38 billion-34 trillion watts of energy necessary to create the image>"muh faberge egg"You wrote all of that out just to still sound that incredibly stupid. I legitimately feel bad for you.
>>544361293>Go ahead and duplicate me a Faberge egg.I can't, but an expert can. They can break down what the materials used are, the dimensions, then duplicate it. It's not made of some mysterious material like the Shroud image.>Science says you can't put something atop cloth and let the part not blocked by the object get damaged, but then move the cloth and reveal an undamaged area? Are you shitting me? You're flat out lying here, this isn't even a clever attempt at deception. Or you're tarded.Not in the detail of the Shroud.>Who is they?Scientists, artists. Every few years someone or group tries and fails.>No, they've tried. Many a talented expert faker and museum recreationist have tried their best for well over 150 years.AI:"However, duplication and counterfeiting of Fabergé eggs have occurred extensively through historical disputes, incomplete or planned pieces, and modern replicas:">So? Same thing with the cloth. It's linen, exactly.How did the image get on it?Dumb faggot.>You keep repeating the same dogmatic things over and over. Because you keep dodging the facts.
>>544361237>So because it happened 200+ years ago, it must be happening now?That is just one example of historians guessing about history and failing, they also changed their consensus on dinosaurs being reptiles vs dinosaurs being birds in the last couple of decades or so, its an ongoing trend that one example is the only time historical consensus was eventually overturned, so yes I want physical evidence, not some claim that so and so said so and all his friends agree.>he didn't say CLAIMED when writing about the execution of JesusHe might not have explicitly said CLAIMED because it was a small anecdotal excerpt when referring to Nero and the claims attributed to Roman officials attending to him and Tacitus even called Christian a most mischievous superstition, definitely not accepting it as historical fact if he thinks it is superstition.
>>5443612931. The False Equivalency of the "Lost Apprenticeship Masterwork"The argument that modern science cannot duplicate the Shroud simply because "there are no more master artists who went through 25-year medieval apprenticeships" is a massive false equivalency.A Fabergé egg or a Renaissance painting can be chemically and structurally replicated today down to the exact atomic properties of the enamel, gold, and pigments. What cannot be replicated is the historical provenance and the unique, subjective hand-stroke style of the individual artist.The Shroud of Turin does not fail replication because of "artistic style" or a lack of human hand-drawing talent. It fails replication because its microscopic, sub-micron physical and chemical properties violate the natural behavior of liquids, vapors, and heat transfers on porous cellulose. No matter how many decades a medieval artist apprenticed, a human hand wielding a brush, fluid, or chemical cannot violate the laws of fluid dynamics to color only the outer 200–500 nanometers of a thread without soaking into the core. Modern industrial manufacturing can apply microscopic layers of materials with sub-micron precision—yet even with our advanced technology, no human-directed mechanical tool can duplicate the Shroud's uniform, non-binding degradation profile across a full three-dimensional human form.
>>544361362>? Why do you capitalize "ROMAN" as if it's some mythological identity?Because you are emphasizing FRENCH people actions and you think FRENCH people in the 13th century were experts on Roman torture tactics.>You still haven't given any evidence for how Jesus and "Shroud of Turin" moved from 1st century Jerusalem to 13th century France. This is only theory. The Shroud exists with our very eyes.>The burden of proof lies on you, dipshit. Still waiting. My theory is better than your "French artist killed a guy" theory.>Do better than that, fucking retard. Holy shit."Heerr derr some French guy ROMAN whipped a guy and made the Shroud somehow"
>>5443614712. The Absolute Scientific Denial of "UV Contact Printing"The insistence that a simple contact print using sunlight has "proved conclusively" that the Shroud can be faked via UV exposure shows a profound lack of technical literacy.• The Physics of Light Scattering: If you drape a raw linen sheet over a three-dimensional human body or statue, the fabric only physically touches a few high points. For the rest of the body, there is an uneven air gap. When sunlight hits that cloth, the light rays instantly scatter through the air gaps. Without optical focus, this scatter creates a blurry, distorted blob of shadow, not a crisp, high-resolution continuous-tone image that resolves microscopic features like individual hair strands, anatomical scourge marks, or fabric weaves.• The 3D Intensity Problem: Sunlight blocking creates a flat, binary silhouette (dark vs. light). The Shroud contains a continuous grayscale map where the image intensity varies perfectly based on the mathematical distance between the body and the cloth. A basic solar exposure under glass cannot encode isotropic 3D distance data.References:• Jackson, J. P., Jumper, E. J., & Ercoline, W. R. (1984). "Correlation of Image Intensity on the Shroud of Turin with 3-D Structure of a Human Body Shape." Applied Optics, Vol. 23, No. 14, pp. 2244-2270.• Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., Santoni, A., Fanti, G., Nichelatti, E., & Baldacchini, G. (2010). "Deep Ultraviolet Radiation Simulates the Shroud of Turin Image." Journal of Imaging Science and Technology, Vol. 54, No. 4, pp. 040502-1.• Baldacchini, G., Di Lazzaro, P., Murra, D., & Santoni, A. (2008). "Coloring Linens with Excimer Lasers to Simulate the Shroud of Turin Image." ENEA Scientific Technical Report, RT/2008/39/FIM, pp. 1-15.
460 replies to this crap, come on.
>>544361469>That is just one example of historians guessing about history and failing,So you are just HOPING that they change their mind on Jesus?> they also changed their consensus on dinosaurs being reptiles vs dinosaurs being birds in the last couple of decades or soNew evidence from fossils and DNA is difference than a historical figure.>He might not have explicitly said CLAIMEDExactly.> Tacitus even called Christian a most mischievous superstition, definitely not accepting it as historical fact if he thinks it is superstition.Again, exactly. Why would Tacitus acknowledge the leader of a group that he hates?
>>544361473You a really focusing on the wrong things. >French people couldn't know Roman torture methodsReally weak rhetoric and unconvincing argument. It's an ancient 3d negative photograph, anon. Not only that, but there are images clearly based on it, a forensically and mathematically indisputable fact, from many many centuries before the 1200's.
>>544361514Demon-possessed freemason sorcerors foam at the mouth at the thought of losing their puppets.
>>544361540>Really weak rhetoric and unconvincing argument.So a French artist was an expert on Roman whips from 1300 years ago?
>>544361473You act like Romans are the only civilization in history to put razors on their whips and crucify people. It's not an act, though. You really ARE that mentally retarded. You believe this is the case.>My theory is better than your "French artist killed a guy" theory.What a convincing thing to say. We're all very convinced now. Nevermind the 1300 years of missing facts & evidence we're still waiting on, to explain how the "Shroud of Turin" ended up in France. Probably a box and some kid in a cave, or something. Yeah that sounds smart.
>>544361578>You act like Romans are the only civilization in history to put razors on their whips and crucify people.No, but Romans did it to Jesus, the person in question. And the wounds on Jesus Shroud match ROMAN whips. So somehow this French artist had to know this (if he use modern French razor whips, it would leave a diffierent wound pattern).>What a convincing thing to say. We're all very convinced now. Nevermind the 1300 years of missing facts & evidence we're still waiting on, to explain how the "Shroud of Turin" ended up in France. Probably a box and some kid in a cave, or something. Yeah that sounds smart.My theory is better than yours. It's happened with religious artifacts before. Your theory is insane headcanon.
>>544361573Not saying they were. I just think that's one of the weakest and least convincing arguments you could possibly make, when there are at least a dozen much better ones. It seems bizarre you are so fixated on that. No hate, just sharpen your iron a bit. There are way more ridiculous things about his claim than that and better ways to rhetorically refute it. That isn't even anywhere near top 10 and is a lot more plausible than many other aspects of his absurd premise.
>>544361528>So you are just HOPING that they change their mind on Jesus?No, I am pointing out they are making historical claims based on speculation and anecdotes instead of evidence, so I don't really care if they all agree about baseless speculation that is currently politically correct.>New evidenceWhich is better than no evidence backed only by speculation and books of myths featuring talking donkeys.>Why would Tacitus acknowledge the leader of a group that he hates?So now you are abandoning your whole argument that the biblical account must be true because Tacitus acknowledged Christians and briefly summarized their purported origin story?
