You don't care about externalities that's why you lose

>>545398836
Why should amazon have access to the nation?

>>545398836
Libertarianism, anarchism, socialism, communism, republicanism, fascism, nationalism, capitalism, etc etc on and on.... it's all for retards. All political and economic theory is for bozos.

All that really matters is just instinct and intuition. What do you need a manifesto to figure out if homo marriage should be illegal or not? Or if taxes are good or bad? Just make the call yourself goddam.

>>545398836
all of these companies lobbied for that cheap labor, aka used the government to intervene in the market you dumb gorilla nigger

>>545399550
There are no such thing as externalities in my economic / political theory.

And if managing externalities require any form of state intervention, it diminishes utility and is a moral violation according to my philosophical moral background.

If you want "externalities", go follow Greta's twitter.

>>545399666
>the nation

There is no "nation". There is no "american people". There is land, capital and labor. That is it. The nation is an invention of the state to justify itself.

You are probably the type of person who says "access to white people is a privilege".

>>545400714
They used the government to intervene against legislation that "protect" american workers.

Stop trying to cope that we are on the same side as the communists.

>>545400358
You are just ignorant if you bundle libertarianism with political ideology. Libertarianism is based on self-evident thought.

>>545403105
If your notions or principles about government society etc. have a label, and you didn't come up with that label- it wasn't self evident for you was it?

>>545398836
start pointing out how they are cheaper, and elon musks is just making hem legal

>>545400714
You didn't understand him at all, he doesnt care about the browning, he supports it.

>>545398836
libertarian does not necessarily mean closed borders. You have been brainwashed by globalism and now you filter every viewpoint through the lens of globalism and egalitarianism.

You want a system that promotes freedom and trade within your borders, but these freedoms do not need to be extended to everyone who hops over the border, thats why people distinguish between citizenship and aliens. The entire argument about libertarianism being bad because what about foriegners basically comes down to
>"libertarian bad because doesnt work with egalitarian globalism"

>>545398836
The thing about "Liberty" is that it is something that's given to you by someone else, unlike "Freedom" which is something you take for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo7_0286E7E

>he posted Elon's star wars meme again
Aha 1000 social credit points for you, OP

>>545400714
More like lobbied the government to *relax* border controls. No FedGov, no border controls.

>>545403861
That's not Elon's, that's an in-universe (unsure if fanon, but I saw it years ago) CIS propaganda poster. Not an Anakinslop meme.

>>545403442
Of course it was not self-evident, I was indoctrinated from kindergarten to believe in the state and authority and the nation.

Libertarianism is self-evident because it is rooted in basic praxeology, the fundamental principle of human action dictating that utility is maximized if two rational agents engage in a rational trade. No one does something unless it is to increase their utility. That serves as the common root for both economic theory and for the moral theory of libertarians.

>>545403535
Musk just doesn't care about the browning. No one with an IQ above 110 does. It is only retard loser underachievers who care about any of it.

Why should I care about the color of the skin of another person is?

>but muh race and IQ

Yeah, yeah.

But WESTERN SOCIETY was founded on the prerrogative that everyone is equal, not on that being a statement of reality. That means we must treat people as if they are equal. That worked for 300 years.

The irish were dreaded in America, now they are a common part of american society.

The same is happening to indians and hispanics.

Case in point, race is bullshit. The entire western philosophy from Locke is based around overcoming iron age insanity like religion and race.

Simply because it is more profitable to ignore those. Capitalism rewards tolerance, through the capitalist mode of production all is equalized above culture, history and racial divides.

Women, the black man, the asian man... all ultimately benefit.

>>545404042
Open borders isn't just a racial problem; first-world labor economies are like a fire, if you dump a ton of wood on it all at once, it suffocates the fire and extinguishes it.

Open borders means Vancouver real estate prices and Mumbai wages. The devaluation of blue-collar labor via free trade and Hispanic immigration, and the devaluation of white-collar labor through outsourcing and Indian immigration were both mere samplings of the "joy" of open borders.

Frankly? This would be a major issue even if the third world was filled with various White countries.

Open Borders only works for the truly landed or capital-owning class, not for anyone who is even upper-middle class and thus must interact with unvetted peons, or live with them, or anyone who sells their labor for a living.

>>545403861
>>545403968
I don't support imperial larpers.

I am a CIS loyalist. The Trade Federation did nothing wrong and had a right to defend itself.

>>545404042
From your comments, you seem to value utility and profit above all other things.
You are nothing more than a tool, and willingly so.
And the races and communities of the world act in collaboration for in group benefit at all times, always. You willingly stand alone, forsaking not only your blood and soil but any belief that anything matters except how useful you are to those who see a chance to increase their blood and soil.
Grow up and be practical. Libertarianism is as realistic and achievable as communism, they're both utopian fallacies that don't withstand actual human behavior

Just remember its the government that is stopping you from forcibly keeping Browns away. Without the government, you could do whatever you want

>>545398836
>my argument is that you are indeed worthless if you wont work for slave wages, and i should use the power of the state to enforce this
Real winning message there, champ. Suck start a shotgun if you actually believe this and not just ragebaiting rn.

>>545405091
This. You and a bunch of guys can grab some guns and just sit there at the border and keep them out. Of course, that will be expensive so maybe you'll need everyone around you to chip in to pay for you to stand guard. And since you're already trained in warfare, perhaps you should help keep the peace in your own locality. In fact, you should be the one who issues rules to keep the peace too. So now you can have weapons, monetary contributions from the locals, and the ability to establish rules to keep your society stable. Wait... that's called THE FUCKING STATE!

>>545405236
It isn't in my interest to concern myself with the needs of people 1000 miles away

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>>545398836
Read Hoppe

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>>545404932
>From your comments, you seem to value utility and profit above all other things

Anyone above 18 should.

>And the races and communities of the world act in collaboration for in group benefit at all times, always. You willingly stand alone, forsaking not only your blood and soil but any belief that anything matters except how useful you are to those who see a chance to increase their blood and soil

This is why the "races and communities" of the world will ultimately fail. Was it cosmopolitan civilization based on the capitalist mode of production that took over the world, or was it the conservative racial great homogenous and conservative states?

You are a little child who wants your evil empires to triumph, when in reality your evil empires just collapse once it is all said and done because they are less competent than if you let people freely associate.

If you block off AI development or immigration, you'll feel smug for a generation. Then a nation who hasn't done that will take over.

The MARXISTS themselves acknowledge this. Capitalism overcomes all competition, tradition, racial divides through supreme indifference, since all modes of production and social hierarchies are ultimately less productive than capitalism.

You want to replace capitalism for your nationalities and races, which already have been defeated.

Face it, Amazon, Meta, Nvidea and Google will just move. You'll get stranded with your great "white race and nation".

>Libertarianism is as realistic and achievable as communism, they're both utopian fallacies that don't withstand actual human behavior

Don't compare libertarianism with 19th century retardation that sounds exactly like what you preach.

At least communism intended to be more productive than capitalism. You want INTENTIONALLY a retrograde system of race and nation to defeat capitalism and free association.

You are argueing uphill, not me. Even communist China had to surrender and accept foreign capital and labor.

>>545398836
If you are open borders libertarian you are actually retarded

>>545405386
Hoppe is what we give to conservative retards and hope they bite the bait.

Notice how it is all bullshit non-sequitur.

>"Families, auhotiryt, communities, and social ranks are the empirical-sociological concretization of abstract philosophical-praxeological categories and concepts of property, production, exchange, and contract. Property and property relations do not exist apart from families and kinship relations

???

This comes out of literally nowhere, he makes a big platitude, refuses to elaborate, then try to explain how property rights are actually based, racist, and trad. Literally not true.

There are a lot of families, authority and communities and social ranks in any random tribe in Indochina. Where is their libertarianism?

This is a disgrace. Free market societies arrive from LIBERAL PROGRESSIVISM, always. Locke's book is a case against hierarchy.

Before COMMUNIST CHINA, every single market society was a progressive liberal democracy. Private business preach progressive liberal values and thrive in progressive liberal environments.

And guess what liberalism in the western context means? — To break away from all unchosen allegiances, to your "hierarchies".

Hoppe is delusional. He wants to have a cake and eat it too.

We give it too midwits with low mental RAM and ask them to accept the non-sequitur.

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>>545406016
least obvious fed shill

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>>545406393
Any libertarian who is not open borders is not actually libertarian, just a classic liberal in denial.

I am a paleo-libertarian and a libertarian by principle.

>>545405228
>I want competition for everyone else, except me!!!

>>545398836
>How can libertarianism recover without becoming fascism?
It can't. Dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed.
Heil Hitler.

>>545406445
I make you uncomfortable, so you need to pretend I don't exist. I accept your concession.

>>545403105
>>545398836
your own life would be worse if you were surrounded by Indians and that's just a simple fact
thus any ideology that results in that outcome is stupid and unproductive

This thread is making me realize I don't really want to win debates when my audience are over-emotional losers who just don't like the fact immigrants outcompete them.

I changed my mind.

Let you guys go with the communists, you have more in common.

>>545406547
Libertarianism doesn't need to recover, I realized.

I don't want you people in my movement.

I don't want your vote.

Stay republican.

>>545406661
>your own life would be worse if you were surrounded by Indians and that's just a simple fact
>thus any ideology that results in that outcome is stupid and unproductive

Pic related is all white people living in London slums.

Paradise, isn't it? So white, so homogenous, I am sure you'd rather live there in white paradise than to share your city with an indian family.

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>>545406898
Forgot pic

>>545398836
Libertarianism is a fantasy and totally unworkable because nobody is going to agree to just leave you alone.
Life is dominate or be dominated.

>>545406752
Have you ever worked in an industry that was staffed with itinerate Mexican workers so they could suppress wages and "save" money? When you see some fucking Mexican on contract throw away several hundreds of dollars of parts and not call in a mechanic, QC, or any kind of press operator because they can't be bothered to give a shit (and will never get fired), you'll start to understand why some of us become fixated on labor laws.

It starts becoming a big fucking deal to some of us when all the local industry is just enough that you can afford rent if you take a part-time job on top of that.

>>545407050
>Have you ever worked in an industry that was staffed with itinerate Mexican workers so they could suppress wages and "save" money

I don't work with peasants who can be replaced by itinerate mexicans.

>>545403664
Libertarianism requires egalitarianism, otherwise you'll just end up with a state to enforce your discriminatory BS.

>>545403105
You can't wonder how you lose debates and then proceed to unironically argue your points.

>>545407229
Well, why should people who do *want* open borders?
See >>545404462

>>545407229
>I'm not poor so I don't care if anyone else is poor
Has the thought occurred to you that you might be a complete cunt? I'm talking about broader economic systems. I'm not talking about (honorary or literal) niggers that create their own problems.

>>545407334
>>545404462
This is the closest someone came to making sense. Everybody else is just appeal to fear, because they think indians might show up in their room.

>Open Borders only works for the truly landed or capital-owning class, not for anyone who is even upper-middle class and thus must interact with unvetted peons, or live with them, or anyone who sells their labor for a living

The problem with this person's argument is that you can use literally the same rationale to question women's rights to work. Then once you start, you can start discriminating against men without children or young men, until you decide that only a very small amount of actually able-bodied people should be allowed to work so "nominal salaries" and the price of labor is protected.

I'll break down to this person: no one owes you anything. If women want to work, they should work provided someone wants to hire. If immigrants want to work despite being born in the wrong imaginary line, they should work provided someone wants to hire.

Even if short-term results are a reduction of the price of labor, it is morally wrong and economically self-destructive to restrict hiring and immigration to protect laborers.

This is how America lost all its manufacture to Japan, S Korea and China.

Capitalism will just win in the end. Either outcompete its productivity (spoiler: you'll fail), or perish.

American farmers are already struggling thanks to ICE. So ironic that they voted to exclude people who wanted to work!

>>545407647
>American farmers are already struggling thanks to ICE. So ironic that they voted to exclude people who wanted to work!
The migrant worker plan they used to follow was just fine. Too bad the filthy kikes keep pumping in criminals amongst the people who want to work. You know what? Get farmers who want to pay, and people here will want to work.

>>545407647
>>545407792
The government bails out banks for amounts that would support farming subsidies for local seasonal help that would last for decades per filthy kike bank they save.

>>545407318
>>545407529
I lose debates because my audience is dumb, guided by primitive emotions, and really just wants capitalism for everyone else and socialism for themselves. It is what I'm getting for this thread. Turns out I hit the jackpot by posting this here, because /pol/ turns out to be exactly the type of people that retreat in disgust whenever I try to argue.

"I am white, I want to be special" is attractive for audiences.

I understand that my rhetoric is bad. I am trying to improve, but I am not a sycophant who'll massage your white ego and pretend that you can have your super free market society while having your trad 1950s family. I am not Hoppe, I am beyond entrance-level libertarian philosophers to people who are just conservatives but not religious.

I concede that my rhetoric is bad. Telling people the truth is hardly popular. You want me to tell you that you are special and that everything should defer to you.

I am, in essence, trying to argue for competition to mentally stunted people.

So I'm a cunt because I don't want America to be a kindergarten for coddled white people.

>>545407930
You don't see your own primitive emotions in every word you type? I do.

>>545408006
Please enlighten me, therapist.

What primitive emotions do I express?

Because what I see in you people is just fear and disgust. It is fine, really, conservatism is just politicized fear and disgust.

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>>545408137
>conservatism is just politicized fear and disgust

>>545407930
You lose debates by your own admission. So much so that I don't feel the need to respond to you, and I'm not sure why anyone else humors you either. You are powerless. You have a laughable position- which is losing- and you continue to hold it. It's funny, in a way. But it's less funny when you understand you're not serious, and you're just here wasting everybody's time.

>>545398836
How do you call yourself a libertarian without being racist. Havnt you read the constitution? American is supposed to be a white only nation.

>>545403105
>There are no such thing as externalities in my economic / political theory.
Do you also like to cover your ears and say "NANANANANANANANANANANA"?

>>545408208
I repeat myself:

I lose debates because I have a rhetoric problem, not an argument one. My arguments are not new, they have been stressed by Rothbard since the 1970s.

Would you ignore Rothbard because his libertarian party has failed to convince americans in each and every election, for 50+ years?

Being right =/= being popular.

I am right, and that is not popular. I was called a cunt here because I refused to tell little white boy that he is special and should be protected from indians and mexicans.

Please have a talk with:
>Milton Friedman
>Ayn Rand
>Carl Menger
>Murray Rothbard

Every libertarians is hit by that counter-argument, "if your stuff is so great, how come it is never done by anyone and is constantly laughed at?"

Libertarianism can't succeed because, ultimately, the only people who pay heed to it don't want libertarianism. They just want to replace the ruling class with themselves, then have communism with white characteristics.

I am trying to overcome this, but it is hard. You people drive me mad.

>>545398836
Maybe because you're stupid and bad at debating

>>545398836
Ideological purity is retarded. The political environment changes, especially one like libertarianism that is extremely dependent on the quality of the average citizen to effectively govern themselves in their freedom. However, we see how abusive and all maliciously consuming the masses are. Europeans civilization has directly devolved from such liberalization.
Therefore, the only way to deliver basic desires from governance like prosperity, security, stability, and functionality is to wield power i.e. a strong centralized government. It's from that seat you can teach the masses through government policy/incentives to become civilized while separating those who refuse or have no desire to undergo improvement.
When said populations are better developed and better able to self-govern themselves responsibly, you can then finally delver them more freedom as you no longer have to babysit them. To get freedom you need prosperity so their needs are mostly met so they don't start abusing everything to sustain a normal enough human life cycle. To get prosperity, you need security/stability to ensure that people can focus on prosperity building without niggers stealing and killing them, forcing them to focus on security for themselves.
It's for this reason that libertarians just need to modify the ideology with some security patches to make it workeable in the modern environment. Just add in some nationalism, and you're mostly good. It's telling that you'd sacrifice entire swaths of people to your ideology to govern over them just so you can morally grandstand with muh uncomrpomised principles. You don't care about the people who you would be responsible for and govern over.

>>545398836
>and if Amazon wants to replace them for immigrants, they should have the right to do it.
You deserve to be laughed at.

>>545408650
David Friedman already rebuked the externality fallacy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0X44y_e_QA

>>545408734
Furthermore, you'd turn the country into nothing more than an economic zone, where niggers will maraud the land in war parties, jews to freely organize an parasitize the resources for their own power and ruinous ethnic interests, and communists (also jews) who'll subvert any institution they can get their hands on to weaponize it against us and bring forth a perverse inversion of natural hiearchy.

>>545408674
>Libertarianism can't succeed
QED. Lost another argument, buddy.

>>545408761
you're basically just saying consequences don't exist. I turns out that people get mad when society becomes India and there is nothing you can do to change this reality. That's why 2015 Libertarians don't exist anymore. The reality of human nature destroyed you

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>>545408674
your arguments are bad and you should feel bad

>>545398836
Amazon has every right to move their business to some 3rd world shithole, hire all the jeets they want - and move all of their executives with them. But they won't:)

>>545405386
Sounds like a wannabe tyrant fantasizing about getting to treat people like property.

>>545408749
>falls for obvious 1pbid bait
you're dumber than him

>>545398836
lolberts have no base to stand on. off course they dont owe them jack shit but they think they do. you can not reverse this by talking to them.

even when you win the debate and they agree with you, they can always change mind on the next day. this is exactly what theyre going to do and you can start anew again.

its just a waste of time.

>>545408137
>What primitive emotions do I express?
Fear. Hatred. Bias.

>you people is just fear and disgust. It is fine, really, conservatism is just politicized fear and disgust.
Your mind is set on conditions being just as you imagine them to be, white supremacy and all that bullshit.
Our forefathers weren't thinking of you when they built this land. Go build your own country.

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>>545409491
>>545408734
>>545408763
Ultimately, this is the problem.

Americans just want a kindergarten for white people, not a country.

And this is why you'll ultimately lose.

The society that you want has already been tried, and they lost. They tried to put industrialization together with nationalism and racial purity and all sorts of nonsense.

Result: Italy and Germany and Japan were conquered and taken over by a society more liberal than themselves.

When people say you are the wrong side of history, it doesn't mean you are evil. It just means you are defeated, fated to be defeated, and thus ultimately irrelevant.

The nightmare society that you describe is already a reality if you look outside the window.

If you despise your world so much and long for a society that no longer exists, maybe the problem isn't the economic system or the politics. It is just you.

I've been on the libertarian train for 16+ years. I have never seen americans so emotional, afraid and irrational.

They don't want America anymore, they want Nazi Germany. What they want is not what the Founding Fathers envisioned, contrary to what some anons said here. You want an anti-christian, paranoid, racially pure and highly cohesive society where everyone (everyone that you find attractive, that is) is guaranteed a fair chance at life.

You will lose. Your dream is an utopia.

>>545410877
Hyper jeet importation is on the cusp of failing too

>>545410877
>not a country.
Define what a country is in this instance and explain why, despite all of human history, it would be better if it was deeply multicultural.
>and racial purity
America became Americs because of it's racisl purity. It's now being destroyed and littered and raped and killed because it's no longer even close to that demographic.
It's not racial. It's demographics. Whites just happen to be smarter than browns.

No one longs for a long lost society, we only want to be free of crime, abuse, racial hatred and violence; none of these things are possible with browns around, and you don't realize it because these violent urges feel normal to you. Rape feels like a saturday, not a felony. We are incompatible.

>>545410877
>What they want is not what the Founding Fathers envisioned, contrary to what some anons said here.
for all white christian men

>>545398836
As a former libertarian and anarcho-capitalist myself I admire the ideology but it's too idealistic. I only have 1 question for you:
Does everyone have equal freedom or is your freedom absolute?

>>545403105
That is still them using government intervention.

>>545411470
Everyone is apart of the sovereign collective

>>545407647
Nobody owes the upper classes masses of cheap labor; nobody owes the third-world masses immediate and equal access to first-world labor markets.

Like you said, nobody owes anyone anything. So why should first-worlders not pursue their own class interest?

>>545411709
We're arguing with someone the shade of poo who thinks they DESERVE to be here and don't question why the place they came from is a filthy, dysfunctional poverty-stricken shithole.

>>545410877
blah blah blah, you're a faggot. state enforced open borders are unnatural, and not at all compliant with libertarianism. In a actual libertarian society there wouldn't be forced integration so all the niggers and indians would be related to distant ghettos because all the upstanding property owners wouldn't want to be near them

>>545411869
>related
relegated

>>545411470
>Does everyone have equal freedom or is your freedom absolute?

Your dichotomy makes no sense.

I am not surprised you are a former libertarian, it was too complex for you.

>>545411603
You are a libertarian in denial because you want to have the white daycare and need to fool yourself that this is what your movement sponsors.

Rothbard was a jewish man who references economists and philosophers who had to flee Europe exactly from the mentality of statism.

Libertarianism, in a way, is also meant to avoid national socialism, just like communism and fascism and neo-liberalism.

>>545411147
Average indian household already has a higher economic output than american.

Cry me a river.

>>545411226
>No one longs for a long lost society, we only want to be free of crime, abuse, racial hatred and violence; none of these things are possible with browns around, and you don't realize it because these violent urges feel normal to you. Rape feels like a saturday, not a felony. We are incompatible

Immigrants lead to rape? What?

If this is the society that you want, why don't you vote with your feet and go to... *check list* the white homogenous societies of South Korea, China and Singapore?

They are exactly what you describe, not Appallachia.

>>545411262
The Founding Fathers were, in large part, comprised of White Christian Men who (or whose immediate ancestors) imported large amounts of Africans to displace White labor - particularly in the aftermath of Bacon's Rebellion - to maintain their aristocratic primacy; namely, Black slaves.

Given how much complaining about their descendants there is on this site - if I downloaded even what is displayed on 4chan at this moment and Ctrl+F'd all variants on the N-word, my computer would probably catch on fire, to say nothing of the archives - you probably don't like this.

An open-borders-to-third-world-labor but de-facto Anglo White Aristocrat-controlled economy would appeal to many of them, regardless of the economic fate of the common White man.

>>545411994
youre a retarded statist faggot gaytheistic kike. denounce israel

>>545411994
>Immigrants lead to rape?
Have you not seen statistics? Do you not pay attention to the news?
>go away
you

>>545411856
I mean, "India is shit because it's run by preexisting structures built by Indians and Anglo colonial governance, but bringing some (large?) filtered amount of them here would benefit them/us without recreating most of India's problems" is an internally coherent position, regardless of whether or not it is correct.

>>545406016
Homogenous states took over the world. As they lost homogeniety, they lost control, degenerating into our current chaos.

>>545406926
Funny, I don't seem to see any rivers of unprocessed human feces or bloated corpses among discarded trash. Perhaps they're just out of frame...

>>545398836

Monarchy is the only proper form of government and it existed first because it was the best. Democracy is evil

>>545411994
The average Indian household *in America.

For that matter, those rape stats involve largely Hispanic immigrants in the US, not Europe. US and EU immigration are two entirely different cans of worms, but a lot of brainworms cross-pollinate across the Atlantic (sometimes multiple times over).

>>545412072
>An open-borders-to-third-world-labor but de-facto Anglo White Aristocrat-controlled economy would appeal to many of them, regardless of the economic fate of the common White man

You hit the fucking nail.

Congratulations.

I insist; these americans want Nazi Germany, they don't want Constitutional America.

A white aristocracy with foreigner labor converting to the local religion and values is the de facto society America is meant to be, not White Supremacy Land.

>>545412072
Almost every black slave was born and bred on this land. Importing slaves was outlawed in the 1700s. And I was uninvolved with black slavery. If my ancestors imported venemous snakes, I'd want them all killed or exported, too.
>you probably don't like this
nigger words? Fuck niggers using every derogatory word there is.
>regardless of the economic fate of the common White man.
When the browns replace us, they won't be in the world we built anymore. That land will deteriorate and die and be replaced with the same bullshit brown people always live in, because brown people do not maintain society, they only use it until it's used up.

>>545412177
India is shit because it's populated by lightly evolved animals.

>>545412236
Democracy has never been tried.

>>545412360
...and that leads to Haiti on a long enough time scale. South Africa at _best_, and the Boers weren't enslaving everyone. An extreme, color-based wealth disparity invites an intersection of class and racial self-interested politics that will inevitably win through sheer weight of numbers so long as they are economically relevant (i.e. not "Neo-Shudras" engaged in "UBI collection" from that one meme).

We can (and did) build something that is neither Nazi Germany nor the wet dreams of a Virginian slaver raping into existence many half-breed children with his slave illicitly. The Founders were mere men, not Gods.

>>545412360
>is the de facto society America is meant to be
I'm glad the world doesn't depend on your opinions

>>545412360
>converting to the local religion and values
jews are the synagogue of satan and God curses those who bless Christ-killers

>>545398836
Prepare for unforeseen consequences.

>>545412360
America was established as a state for only whites. Slavery was a giant controversy back then, due to the immorality of enslavement, and primarily the presence of jungle apes.

>>545412395
I said the Founding Fathers, not you, or White Americans generally. The men who sat around writing the Constitution and Declaration in those white wigs, and their fathers and grandfathers who came to own large plantations in the Old Dominion. Unless you're the White great-x7-grandson of Thomas Jefferson or something.

Importing slaves was outlawed, phasing in in 1808 IIRC; the Constitution set it up such that it could not be done before then.

libertarianism is jewry

>>545412902
Doesn't dispel or answer anything I said.

>>545398836
>if Amazon wants to replace them for immigrants, they should have the right to do it.
Like it or not, by taking up space in a country you are de facto part of the shared public.
As a very exaggerated and plain example: Citizenship is at least the right to occupy the space your body takes up and to breathe the air around you.
Amazon does not have the right to grant “taking-up-space-and-air-hood” at will to whomever they please. Private organizations should not have the ability to grant that shared (read: YOUR) space to others. That is taking FROM YOU giving nothing in return.

>>545412887
Didn't Jefferson talk about wanting the Indians to miscegenate and melt into the White population?

Wait, there's a whole wiki article on it LMAO. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_Native_Americans

A lot of the Founding Fathers literally were the anti-WN horseshoe of being slavers and White supremacists and liberal egalitarian miscegenationists at the same time, while your WN project is of a racially pure nation from our country's laborers to our leaders.

Appealing to the Founders is not the way to go here.

>>545413009
You were acting like I was blaming you in particular ("I was uninvolved in black slavery") and significantly missed the date of the ban on importing slaves by a century.

>>545412590
I'll tell you something that you'll hate, anon:

Jesus was a jewish rabbi, and if you hate jews, you hate him too. If you hate someone who is your brother in Christ because they are brown, you are practicing something, just not christianity.

Everyone who accepts Christ is a brother in faith.

>>545412558
The founders were so different from all of you, that they were VERY close to freeing african slaves, and just backed away due to economic concerns of the constituents.

Jefferson wanted blacks to be common wage labor.

>>545412590
>christ-killers

Jesus was a jewish rabbi born in Bethlehem, Judea.

>>545412982
So what?

Judaism lays the foundation for an international society based on cooperation rather than chauvinistic nonsense and irrational passions.

Jews thrived under capitalism, once given an equal chance to the whites. And you never recovered from this

>>545413369
This isn't a white people problem. It's ALWAYS been an elite problem. The only white people alive that deserve the accusations get your votes every four years.

>>545413198
American conservatives are so dumb, they talk of the Founding Father like they are all the Adolf Hitler brotherhood.

It is the opposite.

They were rational business-oriented men.

>>545413448
>Judaism lays the foundation for an international society based on cooperation rather than chauvinistic nonsense and irrational passions.
They sure hide it well behind a wall of avarice, slavery, abject cruelty to everyone in their way and the deterioration of every culture that isn't their own.

>>545413525
They literally wrote that America is for white christian europeans. Not you.

Why do people just back one horse? You don't pick libertarianism but ignore common sense. There isn't a single political philosophy that works with open borders.

>>545398836
>How can libertarianism recover without becoming fascism?
it has always been simping for fascism and begging to be tread on, so long as "the other guy" gets it worse

lolberts are spineless cucks at best and outright authoritarian collaborators at worst

>>545413500
I know that. That's why I said >>545412558, large amounts of desperate proximate labor with a large ethnic divide almost certainly leads to them taking over (or making a very dangerous attempt at it) eventually.

...which is why the contention of >>545413448 that this is rational and business-minded is incredibly myopic.
This boomerangs onto the elites, either via underclass revolt, elite replacement, or both.

Jefferson was also certainly in no rush to free his slaves, or even to cease fornicating with (frankly, raping) (at least one of) them.

>>545413826
>frankly, raping
You don't know it was rape. Today's definition that all sex is rape didn't apply then. She probably enjoyed it. If not, who cares?

>>545413610
The Naturalization Act of 1790 applied to external immigrants becoming citizens, not the importation of slaves or integration of and miscegenation with native Indians.

>>545413961
I'm not looking it up. The outlawed all importation of slaves in the late 1800s. The slave trade was home grown after that, aside from the ships the jews snuck in illegally.

>>545413569
>They sure hide it well behind a wall of avarice, slavery, abject cruelty to everyone in their way and the deterioration of every culture that isn't their own

When every culture that isn't your own is trying to wipe you out, that happens.

>>545414028
late 1700s

>>545413938
I thought you were a purist; suddenly, producing six miscegenated children is okay?

That's also why I put it in parentheses; though I agree with the modern feminist line in this case - a slave had little choice, and even a slave has some amount of dignity before God.

>>545414055
When you behave in a way that qualifies you to deserve to be wiped out of existence, you shouldn't complain when it comes.

>>545414066
>I thought you were a purist
You make a lot od stupid assumptions.
>even a slave has some amount of dignity before God
god wasn't holding the whip

>>545414028
That's relevant because that puts the date well *after* the Founders declared and attained our independence, not before.

They even did the boomerpilled thing of keeping it legal for a few decades longer so they could get their licks in before banning it.

>>545414153
...so why are you against Mr. Libertarian's vision with a White supremacist (as opposed to nationalist) lens, then?

Or do you believe in HBD but also that old-fashioned "Mejorar la Raza" is worthwhile, then?

>>545414199
and?
Let's research who was the first legal owner of a lifetime slave in the US. Was he white? Nope!

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>>545398836
>How can libertarianism recover without becoming fascism?
It can't.
The underlying, irreconcilable flaw in Libertarianism is this.
PEOPLE SUCK.

Only fixing this would fix your philosophy.
It has simply been proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Move on.
t. former card carrying Libertarian

>>545414326
I honestly don't care what color you are, but this needs to be a uniform culture. We have to be cohesive. I'm sick and tired of theft and rape and violence and murder. These things are all exponentially higher in a multicultural society, and especially higher the darker the skin gets. This isn't assumption. It's fact. Under no circumstances am I responsible to give some poor bastard a chance as he steals and commits violence. They don't even respect us when they come here. Again, it's cultural. The ones who blend aren't causing problems, and yes, their culture is inferior, or they wouldn't be fleeing the lands it exists in.

>>545411994
>Your dichotomy makes no sense.
Oh... I see you don't understand what agency means unfortunately. Nevermind, sorry I asked. Enjoy your shitty debates and dwindling ideological support. I hope you have the resolve to continue going forward or gain the stewardship to move beyond libertarianism.

>>545414327
But it was after Bacon's Rebellion, wherein the poorer Whites revolted against attempts to stymie their allotment of promised lands for their servitude, that true scale was added to slavery in Virginia (and all the other Southern colonies that were borne of her).

This illustrates slavery as class warfare against common White labor, just as migration is against first-world labor today.

>>545414682
>you don't understand what agency means unfortunately
they never do

>>545414705
Yes, slavery should never have happened, and their descendants should be returned home to Africa, same as all current migrants.

>>545414705
You seem to think I promote slavery or something. I just want to be left the fuck alone, and in nigger world, self-defense is key. Western society was built, in part, to remove ourselves from the prey pool. Superior society means superior safety, superior comfort. Everyone can do it, but they really can't. they're not creative, not innovative and they're outrageously violent and rely on primitive impulses. Statistics support this.

>>545414643
>rape
>theft
>crime

Not the point of the thread, buddy.

Blame for crime needs to be assigned to the STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT. If you distrust the state the keep an immigrant population in line, why trust it to even exist?

If you say we can't have an immigrant come here because he has the potential of commiting a crime, that is astonishingly stupid.

Since all the cnservatives were defeated here on economic terms, they have resorted to now accuse immigrants of crime.

The only way to stop crime is if everyone is armed. You don't commit a crime (expulsion of people who just want to work for people who want to hire them) to stop a potential crime.

>>545403105
>There is no "nation". There is no "american people". There is land, capital and labor.
So your political and economic ideology completely disregards the human element. No wonder it completely fails to catch on.

>>545414814
I'm more of a "keep the first world going in a racially-neutral law-and-order mode until genetic modification technology becomes advanced enough to render baseline humans inferiors in comparison generally" type.

There's no need to deport 50m Blacks and ~120m non-White non-Blacks, even presuming it could be done (such an ethnic cleansing - or even a partition of the US - would be unprecedented in scale in all of human history, and would immediately collapse the world economy into something that would make 1929 look tame). Even ignoring the cruelty of such an act.

>>545415074
People want to be told what they want to hear, unfortunately..

I won't tell white people that the USA must be a kindergarten for whites, so I am losing this audience.

I recommend Murray Rothbard, and ever more I hear back, "Isn't that a jewish guy? Can you recommend a non-jew?", things like that.

Libertarianism is a rationalistic political philosophy. These are suffering from decline, because people want anti-rational passion-driven tribalistic evil self-absorbed maniachal ideologies that tell them that whites must restore 1930s Germany.

The breaking point will happen when such crazy ideologies start getting financial backing. Libertarians have succeeded in holding a political party for decades without ever achieving any significant electoral victory because they always had reliable financial support.

The day the crazy white kindergarten losers start saying they don't really want to kill jews, there is the risk some movement of theirs may begin to gain clout in the USA.

Luckily, that is not happening soon.

>>545415010
>Blame for crime needs to be assigned to the STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT.
The point is that they commit the crimes in the first place. The criminal and violent impulses, alst the rape impulse, is strong in them, and they don't have the mental power to resist. One could argue that they should just be put down on the first offense. No one out there doesn't know it's wrong and illegal to rape and kill and steal.
>If you say we can't have an immigrant come here because he has the potential of commiting a crime, that is astonishingly stupid.
You actually just said that. It's funny how you can create fiery responses to shit you said and I didn't say. They have to be vetted, and they have to apply and they have to have skills, and they CANNOT have welfare or free benefits of any kind. Hit the ground running, brown people, just like all of my ancestors did.
>they have resorted to now accuse immigrants of crime.
Are you blind? WORLDWIDE immigrants are committing massive crimes, fraud in the billions, rape gangs, theft rings, scammers, killers and violence of every kind. How can you be missing every report of this? I know they hide most of them, but you have the internet.
>The only way to stop crime is if everyone is armed.
we agree on something
>expulsion of people who just want to work for people who want to hire them
Industries swimming in capital get subsidies. The leaders of the world get bailouts. The government should subsidize local seasonal workers for farms to employ Americans, and also farmers should be growing food, not fuel.

>>545415106
My desires are simple: I don't want to be the victim of crime, I want to be friendly with my neighbors, who live miles away, and I don't want to pay for anything but what benefits me. The first one requires a cohesive society.
>would immediately collapse the world economy
the tax surplus from all the niggers we didn't need to feed would cause confusion, for sure, but blacks are universally a drain on the economy in the US.

>>545415106
>Even ignoring the cruelty of such an act.
What's cruel about allowing them to forge a society where they all look alike?

>>545398836
Remind them that while the NAP is a beautiful thing that the revolutionary war (which they love to reminisce about) was won by the barrel of a gun. A gun. Something that is dear to both conservatives (that secretly pine for fascism) and libertarians that will defend your right to threaten them with it.

>>545398836
You lost against every casual who posted in here. Are you trolling?

>>545415581
>I know they hide most of them, but you have the internet

Anon, not all of us spend all our days getting radicalized by irrelevant newscycles run by state-sponsored newspapers to convince us of state-approved points.

I didn't even believe the riots in France until I was given satellite and live helicopter footage.

I don't wake up every day and immediately tune in to /pol/, wondering what the next "happening" is.

I am Gary Johnson asking what Aleppo is. Whenever you people start talking about immigrants are going on a rape and murder onslaught, it is because YOU engulf yourself completely in this bubble of hatred and paranoia.

People out there are mostly trying to live their life without interference from mad people like you.

Even now you call me insane because I can't spell out the most recent data on immigrant rape.

You have these holistic views exclusively to distract you from seeing how simple the problem of free association is.

That is why I don't want to debate crime. Crime is a problem for law enforcement, not the concern of economists and philosophers and sociologists. Everyone has potential for crime, including whites.

Maybe we should arrest whites, hispanics and blacks, leaving America to the Chinese diaspora. They commit less crime per capita.

Face it, you fail.

>>545415928
>Face it, you fail.
from a memeflaggot who cannot comprehend that moving to where people made the world good and demanding a slice is theft
>Crime is a problem for law enforcement
the races and cultures being imported are genetically and culturally geared toward violence and rape. maybe when your kids get it from one of them, you'll pay attention.

>>545415908
>You lost against every casual who posted in here. Are you trolling?

I am not trolling, I just won't pretend that libertarianism is what it isn't.

Libertarianism isn't:
>nationalistic
>for racial unity
>xenophobic
>paranoid

If these were a publc forums, I'd have already stormed out of the building. But here we are all anonymous, and I just want to be sincere and tell you all to your faces how irrational you all are.

My political philosophy is the most consistent, while yours is a cherry-picked garden of everything pleasant and "based" that you could find.

If I have to lose debates to casuals, as you so claim, so be it. I won't prostitute my principles to please hillbillies.

>>545409345
That reminds me of a Hitler quote.

>>545403105
A statement of affairs is not an argument.. A reduction of terms isnt an argument retard. An ad hom isnt an argument. I asked you the most basic ass question and you immediately got butt fucked about it. You disqualified yourself from any debate lmao even

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>>545416098
>the races and cultures being imported are genetically and culturally geared toward violence and rape. maybe when your kids get it from one of them, you'll pay attention

I ask again:

You want people to lose rights because they have the potential to commit crime? They are guilty of... being able to rape?

Don't you understand how insane this is?

>but my statistics

We don't incarcerate and prosecute populations, we prosecute individuals. You cannot under any moral philosophy deliver collective punishment, except, of course, your retarded painter's.

Then at the end, of course, you threaten me and appeal to fear - which is the specialty of your type.

>>545416275
Do you have a criteria about what morale arguments ought to be or do you just assert asinine bullshit?

>>545398836
India is fundamrntally libertarian. The wealthy and powerful are free to live and do business as they please. The poor get exploited with no recourse. Everything public sector is so underfunded as to be barely usable. A billion jeets don't pay income tax.

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>>545398836
Libertarianism is just Zionism by another name. Everybody knows now.

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>>545411994
>Average indian household already has a higher economic output than american.
and you will see it drop. It seems like you have no understanding of history. Before 2010 the only indians that showed up here were the top 1% of indians that wanted to integrate and be doctors. They took advantage of the fact that indians in india weren't on the internet so everyone just thought they were poor but enlightened spiritual yogis. They were also smart enough to know they had to basically renounce their demon religion full of shit worship because that kind of thing is what makes places into india. Now they are importing millions 75 iq of door dash jeets to be slaves forever who spread filth everywhere. Their women don't even want to reproduce with them after coming to the west so they're just importing millions of door dash incel slaves that will cause unbelievable damage to society.
One need only ask one question: Do you want to live in india? Because importing all these low iq slaves that pollute the environment is how you make the place into india. Pretty much the same deal with muslims. Your answer WILL be no, you don't want to live in india.
That's why your kind are extinct. Because your ideology is a privilege that you're free to believe in when times are good. You have no way to deal with the consequences of indians so you have lost the argument forever.

>>545407229
>Libertarianism requires egalitarianism, otherwise you'll just end up with a state to enforce your discriminatory BS.
Nope.
You sign terms of agreement or physical removal.
Fuck your spook liberalism bullshit.

>>545416112
>i would have already ran away in defeat
Wtf even is this? The types of questions that are directed at you are soft balls to most debaters. You should love to explain your position because that is how you get open critique, develop more effective argumentation, and so on.
You clam up like a retard because you dont know anything and cant face a critique. Because you cant face a critique your pseudistry only grows into these tantrums.
Can you even present a lolbert steelman in less than 5 sentences?
Are you really surprised all of your interactions are just dog shit?

>>545413610 that’s why being a libertarian is based as long as your a constitutionalist.

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>>545416916
you're

>>545416612
>One need only ask one question: Do you want to live in india?

Loaded question. I refuse to answer.

I know why you always bring up India. India is the skeleton key to winning every single debate against libertarians, or at least force them to concede and settle for a police state and border control.

"India" is the consequence of a catastrophic famine which was caused due to the war where Britain protected its subjects from the racially homogenous Japan and Germany, who, as it turns out, were very happy to rape and steal once they were out of their own borders. Read Niall Fergusson.

Your nationalism would ultimately also lead to war, once your failed white-only state became unable to compete with more free market-oriented regimes.

>>545416989
>lets argue about societies that dont exist because my comic book beliefs are better than yours
Sigh. Good luck to any of you that want to get through to this idiot.

>>545416989
>Your nationalism would ultimately also lead to war, once your failed white-only state became unable to compete with more free market-oriented regimes.
Is that what is actually happening though? Last I checked one of the most prosperous regimes currently is China.

>>545415707
The welfare _goes somewhere_, if WalMart (and a bunch of other Urban Poor-oriented consumer businesses) crashed that alone would crash the world economy.

Let alone the panic from foreign capital if the US suddenly turned into a state capable of ethnically cleansing like 40-45 million of its own citizens; no one and nothing would be safe. No one who is foreign would leave their studying children or investment capital with us; no Fuerdai, no Atlanticist Euro, no Latinx Comprador, no spoiled daughter of an African strongman.

>>545403684
WRONG liberty/freedom are God-given and divinely ordained, like any animal or plant living. It's natural and inherent in life. Government does NOT give liberty/freedom and can only remove it.

>>545416916
...have you even read the Constitution?
Or any history about the Founders?

Just look at >>545413198, they are probably the worst argument for what you want ever.

>>545417176
Christianity is 100% incompatible with whatever the white purists want.

>>545398836
An ancap who is so poor that they call themselves a libertarian is a joke in itself. Why would anyone do anything but laugh at you?

>>545417176
And yet what secures your "freedom" is a monopoly on violence
the real language of the universe

>>545417122
America is more prosperous than China and is a multicultural nation.

But nationalism ALWAYS leads to decline, antissemitism, xenophobia and war.
>WW1
>WW2
>Argentina
>Italy
>Japan
>USSR