Birth is arbitrary. The baby in the womb and the baby outside of the womb is the same creature. People mentally imagine the womb as being this magical space that holds a pre-life in stasis until it becomes alive but in reality it's just a hole where the small human lives in until it grows big enough to come out.

Your argument is only idealogically consistent if you think it would be okay to kill the prostitute's child after it was born and grown. After all you are still accomplishing the same goal.

You don't get to decide what life will mean for the baby. That implies you know its future and the meaning of the universe to begin with

>>84919969
This post is so fucking retarded that I'm not even going to bother. Just letting you know, sir.

>>84919776
Their arguments are stupid but regardless at least they're not simping for big pharma

>>84919776
Yeah, life is full of regret. You birth a baby knowing it will one day die. Sometimes, the best thing to die is have the baby die in it's mothers womb. Death is a mercy.

>>84919979
I wouldn't bother either if I were you. No sense fighting a losing battle.

I've learned trying to talk about this topic to people somehow makes them revert to 2 standard deviations below their regular IQ. Massive trigger point for most of humanity, probably even more taboo than pedophilia and incest

>>84920012
Post hidden and I didn't even read it. Lmfao

>>84919969
>Birth is arbitrary

>Like my family?
Where are they?
>In my womb, or they will be when I am impregnated.
>Birth is arbitrary after all. People who might exist already do, and people who are already alive are still in the womb.
Are you a fucking nutcase?
>I simply argue at an extremely clowinishly disingenuous level because I believe an evil wizard loves the unborn more than the living and I'm terrified of his wrath.

>>84919776
Charles Manson's mother was a prostitute and he grew up to be the most alpha male to ever have lived, maybe even more alpha than Hitler. Life is suffering, lil nigga.

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'm a full fledged antinatalist -> I think it would be better if no humans (or animals for that matter) come into existence. But I am also pro-life. I cannot think of almost any reason where it would be morally okay to murder (which is what abortion is -> fetus murder). I think there are some situations where the mother is going to die if the fetus isn't aborted. This is horrific, a horrible tragedy, but yes I think in this sort of case an abortion would be acceptable. It's the best of two bad options. But I think these sorts of case are incredibly rare. I make no exceptions in the case of pregnancy via rape, nor do I accept abortiom in the case of detected physical and/or developmental disabilities (eg down syndrom). A new human begins at the moment of conception. When the sperm meets the egg and penetrates it >you now have gone from essentially worthless sperm (literally most sperm just gets jacked into toilet paper or equivalent), to a full fledged human being. Me and everyone reading this, our bodies were once that size-> just a single egg and a single sperm. And that human being - you and I developed in our mothetd womb, got birthed into the world where we were cared for, protected, fed, kept warm, and hopefully loved.

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>>84920195

Pro choice people talk about the fetus as if it's just this parasitic otherworldly being. Something that can just have violence and death imposed upon them - why? Because they utterly dehumanize the fetus. "A clump of cells". I find it psychotic, or maybe the dehumanization of fetuses is their way of skirting, or coping with, some of them at least (blue haired types), the murder of a fellow human being. We were all a fetus once, we were all a fertilized cell at one point. That was us, our body. Just because it was small, or concealed within a womb. We cannot morally inflict a violent death on our fellow human being-> and not just any old human. No - the most utterly vulnerable and dependent fellow human there is. How a society treats and cares for its most vulnerable, it's most in need of care is a signifier for the how much those in our society, care for their fellow man (or woman). And here I type within a society, where abortion essentially is "free, on demand, no apologies".

The antinatalist in me thinks, it's better not to have come into existence, in utilitarian terms, from the fetuses perspective in terms of the value of its continued living, I would say the fetus is better of being murdered. But morality is far more multi-faceted, than a calculator.

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>>84920201
See that's the thing. Before coming into existence as a human being (a fertilized egg), antinatalism applies. But once you exist, we humans have a duty of care to our fellow man. To nurture, love, protect, teach. We cannot, and SHOULD not violently murder the most vulnerable members of our species. And for what? Contraceptive irresponsibilty? 'It's not the right time". Etc. It's too late for that now. Another human exists. Love nurture care for it. If you are physically or mentally unable-> relatives, foster homes, orphanages. I know these are all tragic options as well. That's one of the harmz of coming into existence. Hence my antinatalism. But once another human exists its too late for that now. It's time for love, for care, to build a family. It's immoral to rip a fetus (I.e. a small human) limb by limb, or suck it out of the womb, killing if like its trash, like it's a piece of trash on the carpet being vacuumed up. It's an affront to decency and morality.

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>>84920205
In my opinion because of the utter weight and extremity of what's being risked when having sex (the bringing into existence of another human to be burdened and suffer the fate of being a human body subject to biological need, vulnerability to injury and disease, and facing an inevitable breaking down and deterioration of our bodies through aging, and then death), our reproductive cells need to be treated with the upmost respect. As if they are a biohazard. Be utterly careful if you do choose heterosexual sex. And, listen to me carefully, an abortion as a "back up plan" in case your contraception didn't work (which was almost certainly just from your idiocy incompetence and cavalier attitude) is immoral. It's wrong. Don't kill your child because You fucked up, and now it's time for you to love, nurture, care, and raise a child who means the world to you. Don't let this sick society think that actually instead of this, let's just murder our own offspring instead. Let's impose death on our fellow man, because the mother wants more time for her career, or because the father will be absent, or whatever other justification you think you can come up with for murdering your child.

>>84919982
Hate to sound like a redditor but I think that would constitute as health hazard to the mother, and it would be more based to vaccum up the dead child so that she may live somewhat peacefully.

>>84919776
That picture is me. I only like good things so when a page makes fun of something I like I know it's a bad page.

>>84919969
Nobody actually believes that birth is the dividing line and stupid leftists damaged their own position like they always do with "my body my choice" which implies birth is the line. Realistically, across the world, somewhere around first trimester has been the line.

>>84920211
I tend to agree with you although I don't give two shits about fetuses. I just can't take women seriously when they act like "responsibility for your own actions" is extremist and then turn around and push that on men. I also can't take them seriously when they act like they're progressive and know what they're doing but end up regretting girlbossing while choosing to let the species dwindle and subjecting whatever child they might eventually have to high risk geriatric pregancy.

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>>84919969
This. Life begins at CONCEPTION, not when it appears past the birthing line around the vagoo or whatever ridiculous cutoff blue-haired leftists operate with. The child is not dead or inanimate until the moment it's appears outside the mother's body where it SUDDENLY springs into life,lmao ...

>>84920541
That's just arbitrary, or essentially because the fetus at that point isnt particularly recognized visually as "human being". And yet it is a human. YOU once looked like that, so did I.

The only consistent and defendable position is that conception is the line. Once the sperm gets through the egg wall, that's it. That's a new human being. Killing that human is morally wrong.

I think people just get kind of twisted and think that their birth, like actually getting pushed out of the vagina was the beginning of their existence. Hence "birthday". But it's not. They began ~9months earlier, and the exact beginning was conception. You and me and everyone reading this post, sitting or laying there, using your eyes, typing with a body. Well that body was once a fertilized cell. You and me and everyone else. Killing human bodies is morally wrong, even if it is "just" a cell. It's still a human being.

>>84919969
>The baby in the womb and the baby outside of the womb
Let the embryo crawl out of the womb then

This argument, on both sides, has always been a joke to me.
Trying so hard to determine at what point a human life has value when the answer is clear:
It never does.
Humans are expendable. Supply far exceeds demand and most people are extremely replaceable.
Human life is not sacred. It doesn't matter at what point the baby is a baby, if it's unwanted, forcing it to be born anyway is immoral unless YOU PERSONALLY are going to take responsibility for it since the people who were supposed to don't want to.
But you won't, will you?
Of course not. And you'd probably say it's unreasonable to ask that of you. Yet you're asking it of the parents-to-be.
Hypocrites. Idiots. Liars. Morally grandstanding self-righteous cunts. Religious dimwits.
That's all any of you are.
Mind your own business and shut the fuck up unless you're ready to take the responsibility, otherwise you're just a loudmouth cunt.

>>84920566
I was responding to the idea that birth is the line, which nobody says in reality. If you want to whine about the line being recognizability, I can make the argument that we should all be vegan and only aren't because it's easy to claim animals that don't look like us are less than. If you want to claim there's no other dividing line, there's plenty. If you think conception is a clear line, what's the difference the nanosecond before and after a sperm ruptures an egg? How far does it have to be in before conception has occurred? If you want my personal beliefs, I'm not vegan and I couldn't give a rat's ass if a parent wants to kill their child a year after it's born. Your own views are just evolutionarily prudent and not objective truth.

>>84920566
but muh womyn's rights! You can't tell womyn what to do with our own bodies! Fuck the little human inside, we don't want to be mothers right now, we want to travel!

>>84920603
>It never does.
true
>people are extremely replaceable.
true
>Supply far exceeds demand
false. Fertility is below replacement everywhere except Africa, including India and China now, and if we allow that to continue the species either dies out or is entirely replaced by African niggers. The real reason to oppose abortion is that it seems to be against our interests as a species. Looking at human behavior it seems like women are driven to have an "oops" pregnancy pretty early and then maybe another with some more due diligence, and the extended family helps raise the oops. For one, women hate condoms more than men do, the evidence is damn clear.

>>84920626
if its a choice between african niggers and african american niggers i dont know what to believe anymore

No uterus? No opinion.

Moids need to stfu about women's healthcare.

>>84920195
Female autonomy is enough of a reason.

>>84919776
It's always the crabs at the bottom of the bucket. You don't get to be the arbiter of whether or not someone should live. Arrogant prick.

>>84920642
poopy pants

>>84920626
Fertility needs to be below replacement for several generations before we have a sustainable population size again. As things are there are far too many people.

>>84920634
You make a good point. It's probably niggers getting the abortions even though it's white women saying it's a human right.
White women should be forcibly impregnated for the good of the species.

>>84920647
>females
>sentient

>>84920603
>Mind your own business and shut the fuck up unless you're ready to take the responsibility,

What an absolutely bizarre take. The ones with the responsibility are the parents. They directly caused the child to come into existence. The parents didn't plan it and didn't want to be a parent at that time? Well tough fucking shit, you played with fire, fucked up the contraception and now think murder is a legitimate option? Then some guy like you comes and berates those who say to protect and love your offspring that we are "morally grandstanding". Well I'll grandstand all day if my fellow human beings are being murdered, by doctors, who have a framework of "first, do no harm".

>>84920655
That's not what's driving it. Nobody is saying, "there's too many people, give it a few generations and we'll pick up again". Calhoun's mice died out completely and there's zero reason other than our own fucking hubris to think animal ethology is not transferable to us.
Also, if we believed that in the west, we wouldn't be supplementing our population with immigrants. We would find a way to weather the economic downturn of population decline until we reached the desired level.
Also, world population is driven by south Asia and Africa. North America is doing fine resource-wise and has no reason to cut back.

>>84920608
>If you want my personal beliefs, I'm not vegan and I couldn't give a rat's ass if a parent wants to kill their child a year after it's born

That's genuinely a sick thing to say. You are not worthy of parenthood.

>>84920609
Yeah I've watched some of those college interviews of women's views on abortion. Some even almost PROUDLY admit to having had one. It's utterly sick.

And I find it ironic they make abortion and issue about women's rights, but half of those killed by abortion are female themselves. So some females have a right to kill other females, and other femals have no right to life, and this is feminism or some shit. Just twisted confused deranged people..

>>84920671
But they're not going to love and protect it. They already want to kill it. They don't want it. What will forcing them to have it achieve? Misery. A wretched existence as an unwanted child, a burden, unloved, forced into an uncaring world.
That's why I'm saying if you're going to force the birth, you should take responsibility. At this point the life is in in your hands. Save it from those mean old murderers. But naturally you won't. You want someone else to be responsible.
Why? Because you don't really care about the child. You don't care what happens to that child after birth as long as it's born. As soon as that's done, you wash your hands of it. Because it was never about the child, it's about your morals.
In the end you're just as immoral and just as fucked up as the murderers you cry about. Maybe more so because you (either thoughtlessly or deliberately and I can't decide which is worse) cause more suffering than they do.
So yes, I am berating you; you suck. You are an awful, awful person and you should feel terrible.

>>84919776
That doesn't matter to them. It doesn't matter that world is filled with poverty, hatred, and unequal proportions.

It's all about being morally self righteous, retarded whataboutism like comparing fetuses to humans, and retarded FAFO shit like >>84920671.

That son of a prostitute is just gonna be another broken, unloved man that has been crushed by the meat grinder aka the system.

>>84920626
>For one, women hate condoms more than men

Bro what the actual fuck is up with this? I have experienced this in my life as well. Like what, do they "accidently" want to get pregnant. They seem not to worry too much about diseases either. Like I've seen abkut 10 prostitutes and they're all (well, almost all) were condoms only, were extremely clean, get regularly tested. I think you have more chance getting am STD from a random girl than a prostitute.

And one time with one gf, we were using the pull out method (like a fucking retard I can't believe this was acceptable to me..) for months and I was getting more and more worried and say her down and had a long conversation about contraception and what are we going to do because we can't keep on like this. She tried to say her little app thing that showed her fertile days was good enough we just avoid then. I'm like that stupid app is just guessing we are seriously risking pregnancy I proposed she go on the pill she absolutely refused and u understand-> not wanting to ingest something that makes you infertile is obviously bad. So then I said okay from now on I'll wear a condom everytime. She absolutely flips her shit starts saying do you think I'm some kind of slut I can't believe you'd suggest that you think I'm dirty and diseased I want to feel you were not doing that bla bla bla she was legit flipping out.


Its like deep down, they just want to actually be pregnant.

>>84920647
Okay what about the autonomy of the female fetus? Hers doesn't count, for some reason??

>>84920745
>Its like deep down, they just want to actually be pregnant.
Wow, it's almost like they're driven by some kind of biological urge, some sort of instinct to create offspring or something.

>>84920711
I am an antinatalist. I don't think anyone should be born. This is out of compassion for my fellow humans. But antinatalsim is pre-conception. Once another human exists we must nurture and care for it. If the parents can not
, or refuse to the child should go to relatives, of its not possible then the government should step in and place them in foster homes or last respect he adopted to strangers. I don't know what you want from me? I'm a single male on a low income. I cannot support a child but guess what if I got a girl pregnant my thought process would be, get off my fucking ass, grow up, take responsibility, make money, provide, etc. The last thing I'd think is "hey pregnant gf, let's kill our child". You've made a lot of negative assumptions about me in your post -> completely unfounded. Maybe you're American where social welfare is hard to get. Of course I care about the child after it's born. I want free healthcare, education, public transport, subsidies for those on low income, heaviky subsidized preschool, free school lunnches, the list goes on. What the fuck else should the priority for taxes be, over than the growth health and vitality of our nation's children?

>>84920728
Fetuses ARE humans, and

>That son of a prostitute

Has just as much of a right to life as you and I.

>>84920748
Correct, no one treats a fetus as a person, that's just ridiculous.

>>84920686
Way to contribute nothing

>>84920793
The justice system does when you kill a pregnant woman. You get booked for killing two people.

>>84920772
It's weird to me, because I'm an antinatalist and have ZERO desire to reproduce. Like an anti-desire for children. So hearing that people genuinely want their own children, I just can't really understand it. I have zero, literally no desire for a child.

>>84920793
Please genuinely explain why it's ridiculous. I'm legitimately curious. At what point does a fetus become a person?

>>84920836
The concensus is after birth.

>>84920836
When it can form an opinion.
By the way, asking if the "autonomy" of the fetus matters when it has none IS ridiculous and I agree with the anon who said that.
When we see the definition,
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autonomy
it becomes clear that a fetus does not have autonomy.

>>84920836
this nigger thinks clumps of cell that would literally die in seconds without parasiting off the mothers body are "people" kek

>>84920801
it doesn't in my country. where the fuck does this retarded law even exist? jewnited states?

>>84920881
YOU were once that clump of cells. At what point did your body count as being human/person. ?

>>84919776
>prostitute
So rape lies don't work anymore huh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey
In 1969, at the age of 21, Norma McCorvey became pregnant a third time and returned to Dallas. According to McCorvey, friends advised her to assert falsely that she had been raped by a group of black men and that she could thereby obtain a legal abortion under Texas law, which prohibited the procedure under most circumstances; sources differ over whether Texas law had such a rape exception.[18][19][20] McCorvey took the advice, but due to a lack of police evidence or documentation, the scheme was not successful, and McCorvey later said it was a fabrication

>>84920850
You are correct and I misspoke. What I meant to imply is what about the INTERESTS of the child. As in, what about what is best for the fetus? What about what it would hypothetically want?

I see the situation much like a doctor comes across an unconscious patient who cannot express his interests. But in these cases the doctor assumes consent of the patient and performs life saving surgery etc.

Isn't that like a parent assuming the interests of the child in wanting to not be killed? If the answer is that the parents assume that the interests of the child js to not be born, then what does mean? Life isn't worth living ? I feel like most people are glad to have been born, even in bad circumstances. So shouldn't the parents take this into account, that IF the fetus could express its interests, likely it would be to not be killed.

>>84920883
Imagine thinking anyone cares about your shithole country. The only country that matters in the world is the USA.

>>84920913
This shit is so bizarre to me. Rape should never be a reason to do FURTHER wrong. It's like insane to me. As if the fetus born from violence is therefore fair game to be killed. Yes its a fucking brutal tragedy for the woman, but why should one wrong (rape) justify killing? Rape babies are just as deserving of life as any other fetus.

>>84920940
why do you want rapists to reproduce and spread their rapist genes?

>>84920789
>Has just as much of a right to life as you and I.
"Right to life" is nothing. Mosquitos have that. Dandelions have that.

"Right to a fulfilling and stable life" has my support.
If every person was guaranteed gainful employment that afforded them a home and transportation, then yeah, everyone should live.

We don't have that though. We have wretched poverty, homelessness, drug addiction as a crime, and violence.

>that's too bad, he still has to live though, because he just DOES OK?!
No he doesn't. If we can prevent a lifetime of suffering and confusion, aren't we obligated to do so?

If there a was button that when you pressed it, it birthed a violent moron with fetal alcohol syndrome who would never feel happiness, would you press it?
Why not?

>>84920772
Of course. It's the fact they're too stupid and stubborn to call a spade a spade - and then want to have their cake and eat it too with abortion, and hold men to an entirely different standard - that's mind boggling. Just admit you have no self control.

>>84920940
That's a perfectly good reason to kill the fetus, your tabula rasa brain damage is extremely damaging to society. Ancient societies understood heritability and that's why they had "your children's children for three generations" rules.

If all life is sacred and every life matters, then I assume you've never killed a bug?
After all, squashing a bug would make you a *gasp* LE MURDERER.
Next you will say "I can't believe you're comparing a human life to a bug", but why shouldn't I when your argument is "the unborn baby has a right to life"?
Does the bug not then also have a right to life? What is the difference? If the bug could speak it would also tell you it wants to live.

>>84921045
How exactly were you conceived? Do you care how you were conceived? Do you have direct evidence of your conception?
The majority of people have no answers or only partial answers to those questions. The majority of people living want to stay alive.

>>84921027
>If we can prevent a lifetime of suffering and confusion, aren't we obligated to do so?

Well thats just an assumption on our part no? Why don't we go actually find people who were born from rape whether they would have chosen to be aborted, and whether their lives have been suffering and confusion. I mean this genuinely like I don't know the answer to this, it's an empirical question. I guess what I woukd take issue with is I am SURE there are some people born of rape who are absolutely happy they weren't aborted, and to sort of turn around say rape babies should be aborted is to say to that man or woman- your life has not been worth living. You should have been killed as a fetus. I feel like it's an insult to people's own abilities to make their own determination about the value of their lives. Is it not paternalistic to just assume a person who is a product of rape is better off dead? To be violently sucked from the womb because of the sins of the father?

>If there a was button that when you pressed it, it birthed a violent moron with fetal alcohol syndrome who would never feel happiness, would you press it?
Why not?

I don't think anyone should conceive a child. I'm essentially an antinatalist and think procreation should be halted. I don't think the conditions of any human life are good enough to start for another. What I take issue with though is that antinatalism applies prior to conception, where nothing exists to be harmed. But once there is conception, we have an actually existing other human being-> a human being who we owe a duty of care to. I mean the parents instigated the genesis of the new human being they must take responsibility for its care, nurturing, love etc. Obviously this precludes literally inflicting lethal violence upon their own child.

>>84921051
A bug can never speak. It is constitutionally incapable of speaking. Whereas a fetus has not only the potential but, all going well, WILL become a member of a particular society and a shared community of speakers. Like I say earlier it's like a doctor assuming consent on an unconscious patient. Yes it's paternalistic but we try and act in the best interest of the patient. And sometimes there's just nothing there -> no interest. The patient is braindead so they shut the machine off. No potential for recovery. As to mosquitos, I'm a unashamed speciesist. I privilege and value human life far more than other species. I don't agree with just harming animals for no reason, but if the suffering of a human can be alleviated by the harm inflicted upon an animal (eg, farming for meat) then I'm okay with it (obviously with strict regulations and no wanton cruelty).

>>84921120
>say rape babies should be aborted is to say to that man or woman- your life has not been worth living. You should have been killed as a fetus
I mean we kind of do that. We just don't state it in that matter-of-fact way.

When you look at a homeless person whose life has just sucked from day one, you don't run up and help him. You look away and go about your business. That is a tacit way to express "I don't value your existence one bit and I hope you die."

You don't think about the violent idiots in maximum security prisons as victims of a life they didn't ask for. You hate them and want them to be punished. They were babies once, fetuses even.
>...but they made a choice, blah blah blah
Free will is an illusion. Your "choices" are made by your subconscious two seconds before you actively have the thought.
Also why is it that stupid, violent, poor retards keep making the "choice" to commit crimes and no one else? It's almost like we could prevent most crime with one simple method.

>>84919776
>Pro-lifers are retarded
yep they are

>>84921158
>fetuses have the potential to speak, therefor they are valuable
So crows/ravens/parrots are valuable living things but not ducks?

What about AI? It can talk.

Who is to say bugs won't communicate with us one day? Bees and ants can communicate with each other through gestures and trophallaxis (passing liquids to one another through the mouth or anus) to communicate on a chemical level.

There's got to be more to it than talking.

>>84921178
>You don't think about the violent idiots in maximum security prisons as victims of a life they didn't ask for. You hate them and want them to be punished.

Well I'm from New Zealand and it's not like California prison but I did about 6 weeks in maxi, 7 months total. Honestly yeah, for most of them they were just guys, products of their environments. One guy was patched as mongrel mob (nz gang) when he was 14. And yeah, some of them were just straight psychos but mostly I just saw the results of poverty, drug addiction, terrible parenting. It's just a place of misery and suffering and one of the saddest parts is that for many prison was one of the few places, or onky place they ever felt love or a sense belonging (hence they join gangs). Fuck I was glad to get out lol.

>It's almost like we could prevent most crime with one simple method.

Nothings ever easy. You prevent crime by bringing people out of poverty, put fathers back in homes, have a dad with a full time job. Have role models I'm children's lives. In prison there were guys basically alone at 12 or 13 fending for themselves as mum went on a meth bender or alcohol binge for days and days. Never had a father. There's no easy solution. Locking people up protects society for the time they are locked up, but they're all getting out at some point.

>>84921280
>There's no easy solution
Except there is. Sterilize this generation of criminals and/or low IQ drug addicts and violent crime drops to almost nothing. Hell, subsidize the abortions of the unfit. Give them as many as they want. One abortion costs around $700 USD, locking away a criminal for life can cost $50k a year.

All crime won't vanish, there will still be scams and embezzlement, but most robbery and violent crimes would fade away pretty fast.

>>84921326
Lol. Forced sterilization is a bit far bro, and I say this as an antinatalist. The state should never have this power.

>>84919776
Can you see the future? No? Then shut the fuck up.

>>84919776
My mom was originally pregnant with twins but my brother came out early and died. The doctor said that "just in case" and for her "health and safety" she should get rid of me too. She decided that since she was already pregnant for like 6 months and didn't want to start all the way over she would just let me be born and everything went fine, but it's crazy to think she could've just clapped me out of existence in an instant and all the doctors would've been cheering for her and patting her on the back. That's why, in general, I'm a little skeptical of this attempted emotional manipulation with the whole "erm but what about the heckin mother's health??" Obviously I feel terrible for rape victims and of course they shouldn't have to live with that, but some women seem to just take absolutely 0 precautions to prevent very preventable unwanted pregnancies just for the fuck of it. And the way some women have this sort of insane religious zealotry towards abortion makes them totally unsympathetic to me.

>>84920603
/thread
Faggots just can't shut up about abortion. Abort all niggers and repopulate the white race, boom instant utopia.