Answer me I want to know

Rare that anyone discuss philosophy here

>>85424894
>Why be an antinatilist when you can just advocated for a brain in a jar world where all suffering removed
Because we don't live in a fantasy land where hypothetical intellectual exercises are made practical and real. Brain in a jar is physically impossible. Not having kids is easy. Just don't do it. Done.
Even if it were possible, the problem is consent. You can't consent to your own existence before you exist to do so. The physical form you take is irrelevant.
>If you were born into it you would not experience any loss of identity
Completely disregards the "I don't want to" you presupposed in your own premise. Brain in a jar dictates your consciousness is inherently tied to a physical form, which is the problem.
>Brain in jar would remove that aswell
Beside the point. Creating human beings and removing their capacity to feel specific emotions or relegating them to a specific iteration of reality you designed would be highly immoral.

>>85424960
>>85425076
The reason you aren't getting many responses is because your premise has been done before and your English is bad.

>>85425160
>fantasy land
As realistic as your idea

>>85424894
Antinatalism is depression. Not wanting to reproduce is a symptom of self-disdain. There is no point reasoning with one for the same reason you can't do it with a nihilist.

>>85424894
Let's say we live in a sci-fi world where you can edit your kids' genetic makeup to a tee. I create a kid for the specific purpose of being my lifelong sex slave. I edit his range of emotion so that he cannot feel anything but horniness for me and unyielding obedience to me. He cannot suffer, he cannot want things that I don't want, and he exists only to please me. Would it be ethical for me to create someone who solely exists for this purpose?

>>85425173
No one has ever successfully kept a brain alive in a jar to human knowledge. Billions upon billions of people have gone their entire lives without having children.
And again, this is all beside the point.

>>85425191
Wdym it isn't realistic to everyone to agree to antinatalism

>>85425174
Even if that were true (it's not; you can very much enjoy your live and still be an antinatalist in principle because of the logical flow), why would that be an inherently discrediting factor? What if the depressimists are right? What if the reason they have depression is BECAUSE of the nature of reality, not in spite of it? What if you're the delusional one, and your delusions are causing immense suffering for those who don't yet exist?

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don't force innocent consciousnesses to suffer in the loosh simulation

maybe if both parents were like 10/10 supermodel billionaire attractive no mental illness perfectly loving and nurturing it would not be evil

but as it stands now even if you get born in a first world country you live unfulfilling lives being wageslaves to pdf files lol

>>85425202
>maybe if both parents were like 10/10 supermodel billionaire attractive no mental illness perfectly loving and nurturing it would not be evil
That literally agrees with my point do you even know what antinatalism is

>>85425193
Antinatalism doesn't cease to be antinatalism if less that everyone on earth agrees to it. The ultimate goal of the moment is to reduce human suffering as much as possible. If that meant ending human births entirely solely voluntarily, that'd be great, but if not, some attempt is better than none.
You think vegans stop being vegans because no one else wants to go vegan? No.

>>85425215
>less that
less than*

>>85425215
>moment
movement*
Goddamn I gotta slow down when typing.

I'm sick of these fucking threads.

Every argument against antinatalism is just retarded mental gymnastics at this point. There is no reason to keep beating the same dead horse.

>>85425215
No hate but at that point it is the same as just being child free?

>>85425227
I am curious as to your argument against this is

>>85425231
In effect, yes. The only things that separate the childfree movement and the antinatalist movement is motive, but they are closely related.

>>85425200
You're claiming the game's core mechanics are fundamentally broken, unbalanced, and inherently unfun. A negative experience. Yet, you are still logging on every single day. You're grinding quests, farming gold, participating in the server's economy, and posting on the forums. If the game was truly as agonizing and hopeless as you claim (because of the "nature of reality"), you would just log off and uninstall. The fact that you stay logged on proves that the gameplay loop has enough intrinsic value, or at least enough engaging content, to keep your player retention. You can't sit in the hub, actively playing the game and consuming server bandwidth, while simultaneously screaming at the devs to lock the server and prevent any new accounts from being created.

If the game is truly unplayable
>The only logical move is to quit.
If you choose to keep playing
>It means you are finding enough enjoyment or meaning in the grind to justify staying.

If you're staying, it completely dismantles your idea that the server is objectively too terrible for new players to try out. You aren't "saving" non-existent players from a broken game; you're just trying to gatekeep the server while still enjoying the content yourself.

>>85425227
>adding "but what if you were a brain in a vat and everything was perfect" to my natalist vs antinatalist mental gymnastics meme

>>85425242
BTW sorry how old are you

Reee I am a woman and I want someone to talk about philosophy with

>>85425245
This is just the "Why don't you just kill yourself?" argument with more words.
I am imbued with genetic engineering that ensures every fiber of my being fights to keep me alive, even if it's not logical to, and even if I don't want to be alive. People often forget that suicide is a difficult thing to do.
Also you don't know that I don't have plans to kill myself, or why I stay alive. You assume it's because on some level I must enjoy it, but it could be because I feel a duty to convince as many others of antinatalism as possible before I die in order to prevent this from happening to as many others as possible. You're making too many presuppositions. Just because I'm here doesn't mean I like it here. Just because I cum when you rape me doesn't mean I actually liked getting raped on some level.

>>85425250
Twenty-eight originally.

>>85425287
I am a woman around your who wants to get her tubes removed and I like talking about philosophy Wanna talk on discord I have nobody to talk to about philosophy reeee

>>85425289
You sound like a wonderful person, but no thanks.

>>85425211
so are you or 99.9999% of the population a billionaire supermodel?

of course the npc doesn't understand the point

antinatalism and zoophilia are the two areas where you keep hearing people say "here's something you haven't considered" followed immediately by an argument you hear literally every day and can basically just respond to with a copypasta. it's hilarious lmao

>>85425292
Ty, well how do I find more people like you here

>>85425294
Please tell me this is a troll you can be this stupid

>>85425299
Just keep arguing and asking to talk to more people. Don't shut up no matter what.

>>85425245
this chatgpt ass response [crying emoji]

>>85425303
I mean I am too anxious to talk here much cause ocd. I thought making the tube thread would get people who get it but didnt

>>85425311
Step 1.) Work on your OCD/anxiety.
Step 2.) Refer to >>85425303.

>>85425333
The issue is that in general idk/cant tell what is anxiety and what is a real concern

>>85424894
youre looking at it on an individual level. antinatalalists aerent arguing from a personal basis, its simply stepping back and seeing that, on the whole, humanity is a scourge upon the earth. objectively, humans have ravaged the earth, polluted it, drained it of its resources, caused countless animal species to go extinct, and are a species that is cruel and violent to its own kind. and has caused untold suffering. of course its not realistic to think ppl will just stop breeding, its just a philosophical idea that holds a lot of truth. the bad of humankind far outweighs the good

>>85425351
That isn't what antinatalism is

>brain in a jar world where all suffering removed.
Oh boy, this statement shows ignorance. The many ways a brain in a vat can be used to make a fate worse than death.

>>85425370
The point of the scenario is that it would work as intended

>>85425284
If you truly believe non-existence is the ultimate moral high ground, then weaponizing your survival instinct to justify sticking around is just massive hypocrisy. You are giving yourself a free pass to succumb to the survival instinct, but you judge others for succumbing to the procreation instinct. Claiming you might stay alive out of a "duty" to preach antinatalism is a messiah complex masquerading as a philosophy. You are essentially saying you are enduring a waking nightmare solely to act as a miserable NPC warning others not to join the server lmao. I'm fascinated by people who are antinatalist and I have personally struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts almost my entire life, but I believe there is more nuance to it. Glass half full. It is a bad environment in which a child is born into that causes suffering and I wish there was more guidance on how to escape it. Also, the fact you had to specify "on some level" means you acknowledge the nuance. I don't enjoy rape, but making you cum would be worth it.

>>85425434
>If you truly believe non-existence is the ultimate moral high ground
That's not what I believe. I believe it's wrong to have children, not that it's wrong to exist. I'm the victim for having been created, not the villain for existing. I'm just using it to the best of my advantage.
>I don't enjoy rape, but making you cum would be worth it.
Nigger what in the gotdamn fuck are you talking about.

>>85425434
>>85425455
Also, reread my post more carefully. My argument wasn't that the only reason I stay alive is to further the antinatalist cause, I said the reason your argument is flawed is because it makes too many unsupported assumptions. The lesson you should've derived from >>85425284 is that you don't /know/ any of the things you claimed to be fact.

>>85425455
>I'm the victim
The victim of depression and my cock raping you

>>85425434
>It is a bad environment in which a child is born into that causes suffering

Existence in general is a bad environment purely because by default you are vulnerable to suffering and the cruelty indifference of nature and reality.

Surviving and making the best out of it just comes down to pure luck. That doesn't life itself an inherently good experience.

I don't why I'm even taking this seriously because this debate is tiring at this point and you are insistent on comparing life to some kind of video game. You sound like a complete egotist.

>>85425487
>you just have depression for literally no reason haha everything's great
Delusional.

>>85425483
>>85425498
I never said your depression wasn't justified. Unlike you, I can see both sides of the glass half-full argument.
>>85425489
>Existence in general is a bad environment purely because by default you are vulnerable to suffering and the cruelty indifference of nature and reality.
You can also say that existence in general is a good environment purely because by default you are able to experience happiness and the beautiful nature of reality.
>Surviving and making the best out of it just comes down to pure luck.
I granted that argument. The environment you are born in is pure luck, but even with a bad hand can you still win.
>you are insistent on comparing life to some kind of video game
Because we humans have agency. That's the point of the analogy that flew over your head. It's easy to be depressed and blame your parents, the jews, women, aliens, democrats etc.
>You sound like a complete egotist.
It's hard not to when I clearly see the glass half-full and others keep repeating it's empty. I'm not saying your anger isn't justified if your life is truly miserable, but trying to convince others that being depressed is the optimal state of being for humans is retarded, anon.

>>85425585
>Unlike you, I can see both sides of the glass half-full argument.
It's not a glass half-full problem though. Playing Russian Roulette with other people's lives without their active consent is immoral, even if they live and everything turns out just fine.

>>85424894
We don't know what it's like to be a brain in a jar. Plus, it's better if we endure the suffering we have now than to hope that it just ends in your hypothetical scenario. Choosing to not have kids is just a way to prevent future suffering. You're just upset that it makes you uncomfortable.

>>85424894
most people shouldn't have kids. Those subhuman indians probably have the most kids.

>>85425598
>I never consented to existence
cool correct that by killing yourself then /thread

>>85425649
doesn't make that uncomfortable, can i please know your age

>>85425668
wrong anon dumbass. can i know YOUR age

>>85424894
That's what I'm saying. The universe will always form. Intelligent life will always form. It may take an eternity but it will happen and we won't be sapient until it does. Anti-natalism puts our species to rest until it inevitably wakes up again. Why not stay awake and try to control the universe? Why not try to master our own consciousness and advance to higher worlds free of suffering? If we do nothing, there will always be suffering. If we do something, we can one day minimize it, perhaps even eliminate it.

>>85425665
>/thread
You don't /thread your own posts, retard. And if you'd read the fucking thread before making that post you would've seen I already addressed this argument earlier.

>>85425665
you can see why facilitating the circumstances that would ultimately lead to someone's suicide is immoral, yes?

>>85424894
>So is for everyone to stop reproducing
I don't think most antinatalists actually think the majority of the world's population would just voluntarily give up reproducing they just argue that not having kids is the most moral option

>>85425735
>The universe will always form.
This isn't known for a fact.
>Intelligent life will always form.
This isn't known for a fact. On the contrary, evidence would suggest the opposite. We appear to be an inexpressibly rare anomaly.
>It may take an eternity but it will happen and we won't be sapient until it does.
Again, not known.
>Anti-natalism puts our species to rest until it inevitably wakes up again.
Nothing really suggests it's inevitable.
>Why not stay awake and try to control the universe?
Attempts to control the universe are futile.
>Why not try to master our own consciousness and advance to higher worlds free of suffering?
I agree that while we exist we should make the best of it, but we shouldn't bring new people into existence even if only to satisfy our own desires.
>If we do nothing, there will always be suffering.
You don't know unset suffering will ever possible to fully eliminate or even take mitigate significantly. Some problems are fundamental to existence.
>If we do something, we can one day minimize it, perhaps even eliminate it.
If we simply decline to create more people, we can fully eliminate suffering without the level of uncertainty you're advocating for.

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>>85424894
what would be the point of just keeping everyone as a brain in a jar?
what purpose would we serve in such a state?
would a brain in a jar even be considered the same as a full human?
If you have to remove most of the human and put him in such unnatural, butchered state inorder to prevent suffering wouldn't it be much more logical to just remove humans in total?
How can we ensure that these brains truly will never experience pain or suffering?

>>85425956
Reduce suffering while being ok with natalist

Alright I'm tired of the antinatalism debate so I'm starting a new one. Why is it called a blowjob? You're sucking, not blowing. Shouldn't it be called a suckjob? Blowjobfags explain