I think if I ever became a theist it would be because of fine tuning or maybe miracles
>>85628371okay, but what does that have to do with me
>>85628371>fine tuningIf it wasn't for almost 4 billion years of self replicating organisms adapting to their environment, this would almost make sense>miraclesNope
>>85628386I don't know but feel free to share >>85628407>If it wasn't for almost 4 billion years of self replicating organisms adapting to their environment, this would almost make senseFor that to happen we would need physical laws that allow for life in the first placeAlso there's stuff like fine tuning for discoverability>NopeWhy nyat?
well in the judeo christian world it demands basically everything from you total devotion so very few people make it so I doubt you'll be a theist it goes against your nature
fine tuning is insanely stupid because there was more time that wasn't conducive to life than there has been time conducive to life. arguably the universe is not hospitable because it ends, toomiracles, though, well i believe in them
>>85628407>If it wasn't for almost 4 billion years of self replicating organisms adapting to their environment, this would almost make sense>Thinks the TikTok apologetic version is what fine tuning arg isThere are only really two types of serious fine tuning arguments: a more philosophical one of simplicity using Occam's Razor which states that under a purely naturalistic perspective, there is no inherent reason why reality should be structured, ordered, or complex. So a "Null World" (a world with nothing in it) would be the default state of simplicity. It requires zero variables, zero energy, zero laws, etc, etc to explain it. And if a naturalist treats the universe as a brute fact, positing a massive, complex and 'interesting' brute fact when a blank canvas would be the more philosophially much simpler option. So we would we look at the evidence of the world through the lens of our prior beliefs, and then update those priors to form a new posterior belief. and find which theory best supports the world we find out self in has been argued to be theism.and the 'fine tuning' of the consents (such as the cosmological one) of which i cba to explain.
>>85628476I thought belief is enough to get into heaven, I wouldn't necessarily be part of any religion just because I'm a theist though>>85628489For fine tuning for life it would be in the sense that under most physical constants life would not be possible and we find ourselves in a world where it is possible What type of miracles do you believe in?
I accidentally became a theist after thinking about it a lot this year. Rabbinic jews don't care if people believe jew stuff unless it benefits them in some way and they hate Christ. There's a lot of incentive to lie about it. It's hard to know anything at all, everything about science and history could be a lie and it might as well be, no big sources make sure something is public knowledge without some sort of self serving reason. At least Christianity is pretty cohesive when it's done right. If you do you should know that the majority of churches and Christians are kinda retarded because they're taught a weird way of interpreting the Bible.
Joe Schmidt is that you? Watch digital gnosis' most recent livestream
>>85628674>digital gnosis' He is nice, but he goes off on tangents so much, it gets jarring
>>85628617What's your preferred reading of it? I grew up in a semi cultist Catholic offshoot so I'm probably most inclined to that in terms of religions, still I think I'm attracted to a barer version of theism>>85628674Wowi 11 hours, I'm not him of course but I did see he converted
>>85628371that's cool anon. any miracles from any faith sparked your interest?
>>85628371fine tuning is a non-argument nonsenselife evolved in adaptation to the universe rules, not that the rules were calibrated for life to emerge; had the rules been different, the life would be different
>>85628371Fine-tuning is literally midwit shit. >I don't understand it...so no one understands it!Maybe the universe is just so complex that one person can't approach it? That's why science has so many disciplines.
>>85628575>that under most physical constants life would not be possiblethat is true though, there is a very narrow window where life is possible, and life is not possible outside of the rest of it. life cannot survive late-stage entropy for example. although technology is a pretty significant equalizer i suppose>What type of miracles do you believe in?a girl let me have sexual with her for several months
>>85628989>>85628983atheist evangelics are just as annoying as jehova witnesses
Getting tired so forgive me if I make any mistakes>>85628974I've mostly heard about Eucharistic miracles and the resurrection, super unknowledgeable on those it just feels like the responses to them aren't as satisfying>>85628983What if most ways the rules could've been would never allow for life though?>>85628989I assume you're thinking of design arguments >>85628991>a girl let me have sexual with her for several monthsW faps, how did that happen and did it raise your credence in theism?
>>85628371i became theist because jesus is the only person who loves me
>>85628371for me those are too weakmiracles are explainable by other more probable causes than god plus nearly if not all religions can claim miracles prove they're right And fine tuning doesn't exist, nothing is fine tuned, if I left my house without a jacket I'd be very uncomfortable and in winter I might even die, sicknesses exist, and so on, I could go all daySurvival on this planet is a fight and it's only easier nowadays because of human invention and ingenuity
>>85629161>W faps, how did that happen and did it raise your credence in theism?preacher can tell you that a shithead is at his happiest when, doesn't mean god is real or valuable
>>85629172How'd you find out he loves you?>>85629212I dunno how well I could make the case for either and I have hang ups with both. I do at the very least think this world is tuned for life (unsure if finely or coarsely), that's just to say that life is possible. Then the idea is that it's also finely tuned so out of the range the physical constants could have been only a minority would allow for the possibility of life. And finding ourselves in such a world is expected under theism. The narrower the range the greater the update for theism. >>85629308Hmm I'm just being tongue in cheek anon
>>85629351>Hmm I'm just being tongue in cheek anonlol... miracles might not be grounds to form rational belief in a world where the paradigm changes regularly
>>85628856Personally, I think the Orthodox way of viewing it makes a lot of sense. Not in every aspect, but I like their understanding of symbolism and the OT and NT continuation. I don't agree with all of their ideas of the church and it's effect on salvation though. I try to learn the history and cultural things of those times so I can get a better idea of what the people meant when they were writing it and why. And I consider 1 Enoch scripture, it has very specific predictions.
>>85629351how about this: maybe any other universal constant would have made life even more abundant and common; it this unthinkable to you?
>>85629351>the very least think this world is tuned for lifeI'm too sleepy to have a discussion and I'm not sure I can express my thoughs well but I don't see it that way, in my opinion the world isn't made for life it's life that shaped itself to be able to persist in this world and it constantly has to change and adapt to not disappear It's like saying the antarctic is finely tuned for penguins while it's the other way around it only appears so tuned because the animals living there adapted to that hostile, extreme environment
What are the lazy theists doing I wanna see you guys talk with each other since you could present it a lot better than me, plus I'm going to sleep soon>>85629366Tongue in cheek about the sexo point specifically I could see miracles as evidence if I overcome some issues>>85629376Totally out of the loop on all of that desu but I'll keep it in mind >>85629387I guess there could be something like there are only two possible worlds and the other one is also fine tuned for life. I would find that extremely surprising though. I do see a case for coarse tuning if a god exists though. Dunno if I should get into it>>85629432By tuned for life I just mean it allows for life not that there is some sort of intentional fitting of the environment to accommodate for something. So in the penguin case if I say the Antarctic is tuned for penguins then I'm just saying it's possible for them to exist there.
>>85629533>I'm going to sleep soonsleep well >I'm just saying it's possible for them to exist there.I can't really wrap my head around this reasoning honestly because once again it's the birds that evolved to fit in that environment and if they didn't we just wouldn't have that conversation because the birds wouldn't exists, like there's so many places I could present where there is no life and I feel they'd just be seen as not important or not good arguments because, well, there's no life there I guess I could say if world is so tuned for life them why isn't it more common but at the end of the day anything can be seen as a sign of god by people would want to find it
>>85629673For them to exist in actuality it needs to be possible for them to exist in the first place under the physical constants. Now we say constants where that is possible are rare and therefore it's unexpected we would find ourself in a world that has them. Yes if we weren't alive we couldn't as ourself that question but it is still unexpected. I will try to give an example that might help as an intuition pump.Imagine you are on death row and 3000 of the worlds best snippers aiming their guns at you, the weather is fine the guns have high accuracy, etc, etc, etc... shots go off and it turns all of their bullets barely grazed you. You can only think about the strangeness of the situation because you survived nonetheless it seems to demand an explanationAlternative example. Imagine you find yourself in a world where the stars in the sky spells out something like>this is a message from God I exist blahblahblah>I guess I could say if world is so tuned for life them why isn't it more commonI think that's an interesting objection why make most of the universe uninhabitable >but at the end of the day anything can be seen as a sign of god by people would want to find itI guess the argument is making a stronger claim than that though, the idea is fine tuning is more expected on theism than naturalism, there is fine tuning so theism gets an update.
And good night I hope people keep talking so I can respond to you tomorrow
>>85629920>guess the argument is making a stronger claim than that thoughi think you're starting to clue into why they put that there. if there were a best argument for god wouldn't most people use it?
