Since investigation into the existence of entities encountered while on DMT are being seriously studied, notably by Imperial College London, and that their objective existence is still a genuinely open question, what does /sci/ think they are?
>>16999436They are hallucinations. Unsurprising given those who see them all took a potent hallucinogenic drug.
>>16999441If this were the case, which I'm not saying it isn't, why do you think the mind conjures these distinct images that retain regularity cross-culturally?In other words, what is the neurological basis for the formation of an entity such as a machine elf, or an insectoid?
denizens of the afterlife. inhuman logic.
>>16999446What brought you to that conclusion?
>>16999444Geometric patterns and pareidolia. Regularity in the patternation is attributable to the same substance being taken. They are interpreted as "mechanical" or "insectoid" as those are the animate things we associate with those sorts of geometric patterns.People who trip on diphenhydramine regularly hallucinate spiders. That's a cross-cultural phenomenon as well. Do you suggest some otherworldly significance to that?
>>16999441>They are [bullshit word scientists made up to deny mind is the ultimate reality]lmao
>>16999465Neither of these sufficiently explain the complexity of communication with these entities. As for them being derived from the same substance, then why exactly these formations with distinct personalities? For the spider portion, this can be more easily classified as an hallucination because it has an ancestral referent, which is what you'd expect from a confabulating brain, whereas the entities experienced on DMT are truly alien, and organize themselves into coherent images with intricate anatomies, which is inconsistent with the mechanism of pure confabulation.
>>16999444they are a primal symbol of self, the mind reflecting its own consciousness of selfhood as a human being. you are allowing your consciousness to disassociate from your subjectivity and finds itself surrounded by alien humanoid reflections/shadows of what it might previously have considered its self but no longer does. it is an encounter of a detached formless subject with objective form. in the detached state, the consciousness can interact with form from a different perspective which is why you can access some sense of healing or "repair", (You) are doing it to you without you realizing it.
>>16999475Interesting. This is largely consistent with the position I entertain the most, that they're abstractions of the primordial engineering of our psyche as our conditional awareness begins to break down, similar to how dreams are scaffolded into coherent narratives from pre-existing data points, but the question remains, why the consistency? A glimpse into my own mind's underlying machinery should carry wildly different phenomological characteristic that's based upon the structure of my personality, but these entities retain similar demeanors throughout experiences of people with wildly different psychological frameworks.
>>16999480>A glimpse into my own mind's underlying machinery should carry wildly different phenomological characteristic that's based upon the structure of my personalityunless the consciousness that is viewing these things is separated from your individual personality. it could be that the psychedelic is allowing you to allow access a universal perspective that is entirely independent of your personality, like a pure consciousness - or some kind of genetic ground zero in our DNA somewherw - that is shared between all humans. that could explain why people see similar things and have similar experiences. Or maybe it's something completely different lol idk
>>16999486That's cool. I wonder exactly why this would form into machine elves or jesters, or my personal experience with a djinn of gold and black fire, or even people's repeated descriptions of entering "hyperspace."Oh well, I guess we'll have to see what these studies produce, which have yet to confirm their existence as external or internal, but it seems like a genuinely interesting field of study.
>>16999491>machine elves or jesters, or my personal experience with a djinn of gold and black firethese all share some symbology of the Trickster archetype... they often provide answers or point toward solutions but those solutions arent always what we want to hear, or the answers arent always what we were expecting.If we are represented by the archetype of the Fool - seeking answers and wandering toward no clearly defined ends - then the trickster is kind of our mirror or foil - providing answers we may (or may not be) looking for, leaving us with more questions than we had before, ultimately resulting in an increased desire to keep seeking, rather than the satisfaction of having found out.It could be that these things are emissaries or personifications of the spark of consciousness itself, the thing that first made us ask "Why?" or "Who am I?"
>>16999473>Neither of these sufficiently explain the complexity of communication with these entitiesBecause that wasn't what I was attempting to explain.The complexity of communication is basically you talking to yourself. Like having a conversation in a dream.>why exactly these formations with distinct personalities?You'd be asking this same question if they were any other way. If they were always slugs, for example.>organize themselves into coherent images with intricate anatomies, which is inconsistent with the mechanism of pure confabulation.I do not see the inconsistency. You can see some pretty crazy, intricate, shit on LSD as well if you take a fuckoff high dose.
>>16999436If you've ever taking a large enough dose of psychedelics to the point where it induced psychosis, you'd know they are just hallucinations. Speaking from personal experience.
>>16999465>>16999475these are the same explanation up to>the first one rejects cartesian dualism, the second doesn'twhich only seems like a difference to people who've never had a concussion
>>16999441>>16999502No shit sherlock. The whole point is to explain the common structural and thematic sequences of those hallucinations.
>>16999465>People who trip on diphenhydramine regularly hallucinate spiders. That's a cross-cultural phenomenon as well. Do you suggest some otherworldly significance to that?nta but the hallucinations on other substances dont come with the same experiences that people report from these "machine elves" or whatever you like to call them. the mystery of these is more about how they behave and interact than it is about their actual appearance, i would say (indeed, different forms have been discussed itt already). and that behavior is somewhat consistent between disparate observers at least as far as feelings of well-being, healing, feeling them go inside of you, etc. but of course that could just be the drug (though you can encounter them with other psychedelics as well, not just DMT)
>>16999535>take drug that fires up "this is important" center of the brain>feel as though experience you're having is importantThe similarities in the experience can easily be attributed to them all taking the same drug.
>>16999436It feels real to you doesn't mean it is real.When you consider what DMT actually is, it's just a substance that pokes around in your brain. Something like that cannot allow you to speak to "real" entities. They don't remember you either, it's literally your own brain talking to you and hallucinating it, your own brain remembers you, that makes sense, lol.
>>16999692>If it feels real to you doesn't mean it is real.This could be said for any perception of reality, largely because...> it's just a substance that pokes around in your brain.Right, as are ordinary perceptions, since they're mediated by neurochemical interactions. Shifting the mechanisms of cognition can also heighten your sensitivity to certain stimuli. Is an increased sensation of smell or vision hallucinatory because they deviate from standard consciousness? These substances could easily increase the bandwidth of perception by increased global connectivity, allowing us to perceive dimensions of reality that are outside the conventional waking reality, and we simply lack the conceptual framework to adequately describe the experience, which is a model failure, and doesn't necessarily falsify the experience as being mere hallucination, which is why serious research institutions still actively consider every possibility.>They don't remember you either.Plenty of people have had experiences with structural continuity, such as beings welcoming them back in a joyous manner.
>>16999704Yeah but the continuity could just be their own brain remembering what happened and their own brain creating the experiences which is what I think. DMT I think comes from a plant as a means of self defense like it is supposed to make you want to not eat the plant, which is where caffeine, and spiciness come from too, but humans do not like to listen to nature's warnings, lol.
>>16999705Could be, yes, but this doesn't explain why these specific entities manifest themselves with regularity in ways that simple hallucinatory mechanisms don't for.DMT is also naturally synthesized by the human body, and is not a neurotoxic compound. Psilocybin is also theorized to be a defensive measure, but it actually restores neuronal function and strengthens dendrite growth, so it's definitely peculiar that a supposed toxin would be evolutionarily beneficial.Possibly just one of those quirks of mother nature.
>>16999436Many people say that they are 'just' hallucinations but I wouldn't be so quick to jump to that conclusion, it wouldn't explain how the hallucinations have time symmetry, that is, they are consistent through time even when not directly observed, I've noticed this many times, the perceived images do not reset or disappear when not observed, I can close my eyes and open them and see that the object has evolved through time in a natural manner without my observation, so how can it be just an illusion if it doesn't need my input to change, unless the images are controlled in such a fine manner in the subconscious that decisions are made about the evolution of the image before you could even perceive it, I'd say that psychedelics do show that there are some aspects to reality that are simply unexplainable, even though the answers are inside you they're locked away behind cryptic mechanisms.
>>16999864>I can close my eyes and open them and see that the object has evolved through time in a natural manner without my observationbut this applies to normal fractal visualizations as well. even if you are only having open-eye visuals, you can close your eyes and open them and the kaleidoscope will appear as if it had continued morphing naturally while your eyes were closed. you can also have closed eye visuals of the same patterns you were seeing with open eyes. >how can it be just an illusion if it doesn't need my input to changefractal hallucinations also dont need your "input" to change, and there are times when shifts of your mind that you arent consciously aware of or initiating on your own are affecting the appearance of visual hallucinations. Unless you are totally in control of your mind at every level, which might be impossible, you can't know for sure that these things are independent of things happening subconsciously.
Let me know once we can prove these entities can reliably provide privileged information. If they repeatedly give bullshit spiritual and self growth advice, I'd say they're a construct of our mind. If they can give me the winning lottery numbers, I'll believe in them.
>>16999913>If they can give me the winning lottery numbers, I'll believe in them.but you already won the lottery and the prize is all around you, within and without the fiber of your being and all life experience, world without end.
>>16999921See that's exactly what I mean about spiritual bullshit. You just used a lot of words to transmit very little useful information. There's a benefit to it for sure, it's making you feel better because you were tripping balls. But let's get real, there's nothing talking to you on the other side, or they'd be extremely frustrated with this form of "conversation"
>>16999953Begging the question.
>>16999953They could simply recognize that the specific configuration of consciousness that allows for this type of communication is limited, kind of liking speaking through a translation device where only certain sequences of information can be successfully propagated. I say this because certain entities interact with the users in such ways where they describe a more fundamental reality, often "speaking" in the form of generating light or geometric patterns, but the problem is that it's so fundamentally alien to us that we lack the ability to comprehend it fully because our conditional reality parameters, such as cognition being restricted by the functions of language, aren't fully adjusted to that level of existence.
>>16999966checked
>>16999966They're just trying to reach us about our universe's extended warranty. I don't think this refurbished reality ever came with one.
>>16999436I post my elaborate theories mostly on /pol/ but they're clearly the interdimensional aliens. Certain selfish people have a misguided notion to deny anything and everything supernatural, and it's the psychic vampires controlling academia.
>>17000089interesting.. on a somewhat related tangent, i think the nuts-&-bolts UAP cultists are disinfo agents chasing their tail over futuretech government black projects. whatever the real UFO-things are is much more fluid, less like solid matter. they are able to change shape and spontaneously manifest and demanifest at will, like the machine elves. i think they also are inextricably linked to human consciousness, like the elves.
>>17000075DMT hotline seems like it'd be a funny sketch
>>17000119The DMT aliens, the psychic vampires, and the UFOs are all actually related phenomena. There's so much proof of it all, but here's the best explanation I can put into scientific terms. Hiding in m-theory's nine spatial dimensions, six of which are usually beyond normal human measurements or observation, is a whole parallel ecology, like a Xen dimension from half-life. The intelligent creatures in usually have humanoid feature. DMT entities, angels, demons, etc. all fit these descriptions as the same class of entity. These intelligent entities rarely manifest in our world. "Hauntings" might sometimes be due to these creatures but humankind likely has other methods. Like I said there is a whole ecology and likewise there are animals following the same altered laws of physics. These animals come in many varieties which would manifest as streaks of light, heat, or maybe big vaporous balls like the UFO files describe. Some of these unintelligent entities that draw off of energy bond with humans symbiotically and then you get the psychic vampires, which are real.Theoretically a human could bond with an intelligent angel as well. I think this is what the book of Enoch describes where the marriage of women and angels beget the nephilim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFRirdsEDHo&t=69sSeeds of scorn are plantedTribulations are hangingHumiliation congealsMinutes stutter unknown awarenessNonviolence that is nefariousForbidden hunger, age is huntingInhumane encountersMinutes stutter unknown awarenessSeeds of scorn are plantedTribulations are hangingHumiliation congealsMinutes stutter unknown awareness
>>16999436>Imperial College LondonSame idiots that seeded the pandemic panic.
I can tell you about the space aliens. There are two other planets, lost to time. In Norse lore there was asgard, midgard, and niflheim. In Ancient Greece they believed in heaven, where the gods lived, the earth, where gods and humans lived together, and the underworld, where only humans existed. I see no gods around me. Creation was split into three, and three rulers inherited each domain. One king for the Sky, one king for the Sea, and one king for the Land. Hades inherited the Land, the richest kingdom, and it turned into a reputation for the Underworld.But you see there's also THE BIBLE. The Bible tells that God created the Sky, and then the Sea, and then the Land, to part the Sea from the Sky. I think Cthulhu is from this other planet, I think he shows up in the Bible as the Beast out of the Sea that rules with one foot in the Sea and one foot on Land. Everyone swore by all the Land and all the Sea and all the Sky. I can see how it all fits together. The Sky is literally where this creator God dwells among humans. The doomsday forecasters in Revelation were off by miles. Even Revelation said that rule would be passed to Hades.>I hold the key to Hades (here personified as Death)I could tell you about the Sea, and why it's a dark place. But this planet is Earth, the land. Any Gods are in hiding, laying very low, or are far beneath the surface.
>>16999436Arrrgh, sometimes deep on the night there were patterns deep on the dirac sea or deep on the vacuum to the void or something
>>16999436If you're a real entity? If so, why can't DMT entities be real as well? What objectively differentiates the self from other brain-generated presences?
>>17000617>What objectively differentiates the self from other brain-generated presences?the ability to interact with physical reality
>>17000620You're real, they interacted with you. Through you they can interact with the world, wearing your mind like a puppet. You can't not perform the future actions they have planned for you, like one of those fated deaths that comes true. A lot of people walking around thinking they're the origin of their thoughts.
>>17000620>the ability to interact with physical realityIf the self can interact with physical reality, go ahead and type your reply without using only your self without using physical hands.
>>17000621you cant prove or test any of this. a dream can influence how you think the next day but nobody would say the dream is interacting with physical reality>>17000622what the fuck are you talking about? being able to type with my hands is myself interacting with physical reality. something which these things cannot and have not been observed to do.
>>17000625>being able to type with my hands is myself interacting with physical realityHands are interacting with the physical world. No "self" is interacting with the physical world at any point.
>>17000652i think you understand that my point was these things cannot directly interact with physical reality in any way. you're just being pedantic and getting caught up in the semantics of the concept of "Self" because you are a dualist, and that's fine. but even dualism admits that the nonphysical cannot interact with the physical. if you want to say these things do exist as independent sentient entities, but only in a realm that can never interact directly with matter then that's fine and i might not even disagree with you, but just be clear about it.
>>17000660I'm just drawing your attention to the simple fact that this "self" entity in your head doesn't physically interact with anything, either. It's imaginary. It's your body that interacts with the world.
>>17000678we are just speaking two different languages so i will simply agree to disagree.
>>17000686For all intents and purposes, you're a dualist in denial.
>>16999436They are Buck Rizzlers. Do NOT let them into your gyatt.
