Do stomachaches ever actually happen in the stomach?Seems like they're actually intestinal discomforts
>>17001864If it can be fixed with antacid, it's probably a stomach issue.
No, the body is mostly a pain-free environment. Its the brain where the problems start.
>>17001864If it actually happens in the stomach it is obviously called heart burn, duh.
>>17002037Why do humans have such a shit sense for their own anatomy?
>>17001942Well its a good thing the brain isn't part of the body, then.
>>17002042Yeah, just what were these dumb animals thinking when they decided to hide their vital organs inside their bodies instead of putting them on full display to be easily understood.
>>17002049There has never been any point where humans didn't know what they looked like on the inside and roughly what organ does what since gore is widespread
>>17002037heart burn is in the lower esophagus.
my dad had to get his gall bladder removed due to gall stones which were causing him immense pain and it just makes me wonder why evolutionarily we even have nerves there when there's nothing you'd be able to do about it before modern surgical techniques anyway.
>>17002264There's no way ancient people knew what the pancreas did
>>17002322Perhaps not but the more major ones are pretty self-evident
>>17002047>mostlyI included that to filter especially indian gotchas but like most efforts, it was for not.
>>17001864Eat a dry ghost pepper and find out for yourself>note do not do this the chance of a serious stomach ulcer is very high
>>17002383Nah, you are just mostly retarded and don't understand how the body works, I am sure you would blame bone spurs and nerve damage on the brain too as if that is the only place that has neurons.
>>17002269Probably to expose your weakness so the other tribe members can eat you while you are still fresh.
>>17002536So you believe pain states are processed and experienced in your foot?
>>17003008So you believe that the actual measurable physical damage to the bones and nerves that cause them to send measurable signals indicating as much have nothing to do with the bones and nerves that are damaged and signalling themselves, it is only a function of the brain because the brain is the only place where neurons can actually generate and process information despite signalling neurons being observably present all over the body?
>>17003047No, but I believe the signals must be processed by the brain to be considered a felt sensation.
>>17003051Then how exactly is the body "mostly pain-free" if the pain signals have to travel through the entire body to get to the brain?
>>17003059Because the signals themselves do not constitute a felt sensation.
>>17003060So the pain could still be felt if there were no signals from nerves far away from the brain, it doesn't have to travel through the whole body to feel the pain being signaled and you are definitely not trying to use semantics to justify a falsehood?
>>17003062Absolutely pain can be felt absent a signaling event.
>>17003065So then the brain doesn't actually have to receive any signal for there to be pain, the damaged foot feels the pain all on its own without signalling the brain?
>>17003066Yes. You can have a nociceptive event without any outside stimuli. You cannot have one without a brain.
>>17003066Sorry, I misread your last bit. No, the foot cannot feel pain without a brain. The brain can feel a foot without a foot. See how this works?
>>17003069>the foot cannot feel pain without a brainThen why do damaged feet that aren't signalling the brain still break down and stop functioning? Seems like you are arguing that the temperature can't be x degrees outside until you have a thermometer.>No, the foot cannot feel painThen why is it sending pain signals if nothing is actually being felt by the nerves to generate them? How is a pain signal that doesn't reach the brain not a pain signal?
>>17003070Do you believe the impulse is a special variant of electricity, pain electricity? That's a determination made at the point of the brain. Damaged limbs break down because they're damaged, no longer physically robust in some respect. They do this just fine absent of pain.
>>17003071>the impulse is a special variant of electricity, pain electricityYes, I believe that modulated impulses of electricity can carry special proprietary information, its the whole reason computing and the internet work. Do you also think that this web page is only on your computer and doesn't count as information until your browser has determined how to interpret it?>That's a determination made at the point of the brain. So if the foot isn't actually signalling anything that can indicate pain, how does the brain know how to interpret it as pain, just coincidence that it determines pain whenever the foot neuron indicated potential damage?>They do this just fine absent of pain.No, they do it in conjunction with pain, so more rapid deterioration can be avoided.
>>17003072And if the proprietary information pathway terminated at the thumb, do you think it would hurt to stub your toe? The brain can absolutely sort a signal that needs designation as pain from one that does not (most of the time, hopefully), trouble starts when you try to have a felt pain without the organ that processes sensation.
>>17003076>And if the proprietary information pathway terminated at the thumb, do you think it would hurt to stub your toe?It doesn't so there is really no point in thinking about retarded scenarios instead of reality, but yes if the thumb has some kind of measurable observable physical reaction due to the pain signals from the foot, it would be obvious that it was feeling it.>The brain can absolutely sort a signal that needs designation as pain from one that does not (most of the time, hopefullyYes and mycelium and bacterial networks can also sort those sort of signals to try to mitigate damage to the network without needing a brain.>without the organ that processes sensation.So then why ignore the fact that foots can twitch and spasm and do things to mitigate the damage without actually fully signally a brain to also have a pain response?
>>17003083Reaction is a fundamental characteristic of reality. Pain is a felt sensation, takes a little more heavy lifting done by a complex neuronal architecture. Things can flail and twitch all they like, without a brain, it's not going to hurt.
>>17003086>Things can flail and twitch all they like, without a brain, it's not going to hurt.Why a brain then, why not language to describe pain and just go all in with the type of people who claim animals don't feel pain since pain is something only humans can understand, how is it a brain in general advance enough given bugs have brains, rather than an advance frontal lobe necessary to feel pain?
>>17003089Animals can feel pain, of course. The issue then becomes the depth of experience, but not the quality. A bear stuck in a trap doesn't need to verbalize "do not want" to not want. What it does need is the signal going from its paw to its brain to evaluate the situation as a negative.
>>17003092>Animals can feel pain, of course.How exactly is a gnat's brain of more complex neuronal architecture than that of a human foot?> What it does need is the signal going from its paw to its brain to evaluate the situation as a negative.How is that not just some reaction that is a fundamental characteristic of mindless animals?
>>17003098Now we're an order or so down. You have to think of aversion states, not necessarily pain events. A gnat can only be as miserable as its functions are impeded. We rip off a fly's wing and scale it up to some big human-sized sensation of having an arm torn off, especially when you see how it reacts, but that's just anthropomorphizing. We don't know what sensation is like for the fly or even if "for the fly" makes sense, anything I posit won't do it justice. Some real fringe effective altruist/suffering focused ethics types will tell you electromagnetic repulsion is a form of suffering.
>>17003104>We don't know what sensation is likeYou are claiming that you do, though, you know they feel pain even though your threshold for pain (more neuronal architectural complexity than a human foot) is not quite being met.>but that's just anthropomorphizing.Your whole concept of pain is an anthropomorphization based on the human brain, though.
>>17003106No, I am most definitely not claiming I know what sensation means to a fly.And yes to the second part, I am absolutely evaluating human pain through the lens of a human mind.
>>17003106Sorry, to address the foot again, yes, there does not exist a robust enough architecture in my foot to evaluate and classify an event as any appreciable form of pain.
>>17003107>No, I am most definitely not claiming I know what sensation means to a fly.So when you said "Animals can feel pain, of course." you meant that you have not idea what you are talking about or what they feel? >And yes to the second part, I am absolutely evaluating human pain through the lens of a human mind.So now anthropomorphization is good and we should consider any pain reaction displayed by others to be indicative of pain?
>>17003108So you think your foot has less neuronal architectural complexity than that of a gnat's brain?
>>17003109No, I think we can have a pretty good idea of pain state analogs in other fairly sophisticated organisms. I know the sensation of pain that knocks holes in an individual's homeostasis requires the same brainwork as the sensation of well-being its subverting. I can't "be a bat" of course but I can know a bat's wing separate from a bat's brain can't cause the bat any trouble.
>>17003111My foot cannot make value judgements, neither can a gnat. A gnat can do things that look like judgement, but again, I'm giving it higher qualities.
>>17003114>No, I think we can have a pretty good idea of pain state analogs in other fairly sophisticated organisms.So you were just lying when you said you were most definitely not claiming you know what sensations a fly feels?>>17003115>My foot cannot make value judgementsThen why are there involuntary reactions such that the foot and other body parts can react to the pain before your brain is fully aware of the situation and ready to delegate?
>>17003117A large mammal, with similar developments and pressures. That's pretty far from a fly, they're quite alien. Or think of something like certain marine life without a centralized brain, more distributed. Then we could talk about the sensation of pain in a severed tentacle, lol. You're misunderstanding that study. It's to do with reactions made without conscious consideration, not localized in a limb. There's still thinking, "you" just don't seem to get the memo. Also there's been some backlash on a few of those studies, but that's besides the point.
>>17003119>That's pretty far from a fly, they're quite alien.Except they both have brains which you "know" is the only source of pain in a body.>Then we could talk about the sensation of pain in a severed tentacleHow is that not more alien than an animal with a single brain? Do you even know exactly what they mean when they say octopi have brains in their tentacles?>There's still thinking, "you" just don't seem to get the memo. So "thinking" doesn't require "you" or the complex neuronal architecture system that you originally were saying is the only possible source of pain in the body?
>>17003122They both have brains as an anatomical classification. Human feet do not have brains.
>>17003122Thinking absolutely requires a brain. The debate in that arena is over self awareness.
>>17003123Pain signals aren't sent by brains, they are sent by nerves. The nerve bundle in a human foot is much more complex than the nerves bundle in a gnat's brain.>>17003125No, The Blob disagrees, many scientists also absolutely concede that mycelium networks measurably calculate and react to stimulus in much the same way a brain does and many people don't believe that animals are capable of complex though and attribute that to some specific area of the brain like a prefrontal cortex.
>>17003127No, pain signals are not sent by brains. They are interpreted by brains as pain.
>>17003129>They are interpreted by brains as pain.Because they are encoded by the nerves that sent the signal as pain.
>>17002322You'd be surprised. Besides, the fallen angels probably told them anyway.
>>17003068You have more than one brain.
>>17003130They could be encoded by the Germans that sent the signals as cupcake recipes, its going to mean little without the brain to interpret.>>17003133Maybe if I'm writing a popsci article and want a flowery headline for another middling study of gut's connection with the mind. In boring old human anatomy, the brain is the seat of perception.
>>17003135>study of gut's connection with the mindInteresting you believe the gut has a direct connection to our mind. I thought we were talking about brains.
>>17003139You really have to work on this gotcha thing.
>>17003135>its going to mean little without the brain to interpret.No, it means the foot will still react to the stimulus on its own and you will just say that reacting to stimulus doesn't count as perceiving the stimulus because of reasons that don't hold up upon inspection.
>>17003143That's right, reaction is not always perception. I haven't really faced any scrutiny.
>>17003148Sure because actively reacting to something you can't even perceive totally makes sense.
>>17003152Conditionally, its about levels of perception. We all have things at the fore or not even registering, the brain is at work either way.
>>17003160So are the nerves in the foot and you have just admitted that stimuli are perceived by the nerves in the foot even if the brain doesn't register it.
>>17002325liver? kidneys? get the fuck out
