It's kino. Best combat focused RPG I've ever played.
>>98101456It's shit and Fatt Colville is a hack faggot.
>>98101456No one plays this and it’s gay. It and daggerheart suck each others bleeding hiv dicks in the bargain bin
>>98101456Worldbuilding elf setting?
Draw Steel is such a dumb name.
>>98101456No.If you don't want to play DnD(which you shouldn't) just play Pathfinder
>>98101456Honestly I thought some of the mechanics sounded interesting, I'd be willing to give it a try, but Colville has such shit taste in aesthetics. The setting is gay, the new races and twists on classic races are gay, the class that has fourth wall breaking names for all their abilities is SUPER gay. I'd play a hack of it that stripped out all the west coast nu-fantasy garbage.
>>98102708Explain exactly what makes it so gay
>>98101456depends on the gm
>>98101456Cool.Maybe you could elaborate on why you think that?Or are you just fishing for naysayers?
>>98101699They should have called it "Prepare Spell".
I don't draw.And I use wooden clubs.
>>98102708>The setting is gay, the new races and twists on classic races are gay, the class that has fourth wall breaking names for all their abilities is SUPER gay.Why do you think that way?What is it about the setting and its races that makes it so gay?
>>98102708go ahead, tell me about the setting. Show me the art. Convince me.
>>98101456I was curious about it, actually.Could we get a constructive thread, for a change? What did you like about it, anon?>>98101478>It's shitWell, then what didn't you like about it, curious to hear that, too>>98102639>PathfinderI played Pathfinder for a few years, and I can confidently say it’s shit. It’s an accounting simulator, and there’s a huge gap in power level between optimized and unoptimized characters.Basically, if you don’t comb through the options to find the mathematically optimal build, you won’t be on the same power level as a character whose player did. And because the game is mostly about combat, you’ll end up doing nothing all game long.The combat system isn’t anything to write home about either. You can’t do anything unexpected or fun, like swinging from a chandelier into an enemy, unless your character is built for it, which you shouldn’t do for the reason above.I remember one campaign where the enemies were using a ballista during a fight. We managed to seize it early on, but then gave up on turning it against them, because without the siege weapon proficiency we would miss most of the shots and were better off just making normal attacks.That’s about as anti-cinematic as it gets.The quest for the best D&D alternative continues, as far as I'm concerned.
>>98102711>>98102910>>98102928Damn son, hold your horses. The setting hardly differs from modern 5e FR: tons of races that feel like a fantasy San Francisco. Colville talks about how he wants his dwarves, elves, etc. to feel truly alien and not think or behave like humans. But to me they just come off as rubber-forehead aliens. "Dwarves don't just live in the earth, they are stone!" It comes off as gimmicky to me. I loathe the tone in the writing style, there is no sense of grandeur, no sincerity.All of the class ability names are cutesy one-liners. The rogue equivalent has ability names like "I work better alone" and "teamwork has its place." The bard equivalent is the worst offender: "flip the script," "classic chandelier stunt," "fix it in post." Everything about it rubs me the wrong way.The tone is too juvenile, the writing is too informal, everything about the game's sense of style rubs me the wrong way. I am all for a more tactical skirmish game in the vein of 4E, but I don't think I could stomach this.
>>98103000Forgot to post an image. This is from the backer kit. I really, really hate these dwarves.
>>98103000>Dwarves don't just live in the earth, they are stone!" Warcraft already did this, it's not subversive at all.
>>98103015WoW did playable undead already, too.
>>98102762Nay.
>>98103005>writer is short and fat>to no one's surprise midges are a giant self insert power fantasy.
>>98101505Came here to say this. No one plays this faggot game because good games already exist. It only exists as a reactionary game for ignorant 5E players who have never played anything else, especially older editions of their own supposedly beloved game
Just play trespasser
>>98101456>Draw steel>At no point I'm asking to draw a piece of steelShit game, 0/10, dogshit diarreah false advertisement, reported to the consumer's right wiki.
>>98102892"Roll for Initiative"?
Had a lot of fun running Delian Tomb for a group that has only ever played 5e, and two that played 4e back in the day. We did a bit of an autopsy after the first few sessions about what worked (combat feels snappy and synergistic, paying attention outside your turn is very helpful, malice/powers name you feel like you have a lot of abilities) as well as the bad (downtime projects have less guidance, negotiations are a bit tricky to grok at first).Would recommend trying out, and it's free.
>>98103057Draw Steel has nothing to do with 5E beyond 5E being liquid shit for the kind of game Draw Steel is.
Draw Steel is like a beautiful sculpture made of shit. I am impressed by it and the work involved, but I don't understand why anyone would make it, or why anyone would want to be around it.>Lore is wordy, marvelesque, silly in an unfun way, and absurd to the point of incongruity>Rules are dense, with tons of complications, with a unique name for all the 20 different resource points; ultimately serving to play a modern Larian video game as a pen and paper RPG (VTT not mandatory but highly recommended)>Prices are high>Golf scores are way high too>Fiction is limited to medieval kitchen sink fantasy where the players are equivalent to super heroes, it makes WoD games look setting agnostic>DND4e-styled "Every action is a named ability with rules" so you can't blow your nose without knowing "Cantankerous Cavern Displacement" a second level commander ability>Or in this case a second level null time raider ability>LOOK at what the MCDM RPG has been demanding your Respect for all this time, with all the rules & fantasy we built for them: -energy>I would like 4 Spark Off Your Skin, pleaseThey have played you for absolute fools.
>>98101456Knowing nothing else about it but this shit cover art, I would never touch this game.
>>981034114e has good combat and i imagine this game has good combatthe setting looks like shit though. if you hate this game blame lancer.
>>98103468I like using a resource system instead of daily and encounter abilities but other than that combat feels way worse than 4e.
>>98103000>>98103005>>98103019Damn you were right, this is unbelievably gay
Zee (whose shit I will not link) did a video on this shit and their proprietary VTT and the entire time I was listening to him jabber on about adjacency and maneuvers and bonus actions and the quirky names for shit and how a character just fucking died by walking in a room just made me think>Wow this shit sounds insanely tedious and fucking terrible to actually play. What's the fucking point of this shit? Just play a fucking wargame you faggots.
>>98104285Wargames don't have continuity by default, have you controlling more than one character, and don't have roleplaying by default. How the fuck is a wargame going to do anything for them?
I have played and GMed Draw Steel from levels 1 to 10.It is a fairly good 4e-like game, though it has its share of balance issues. Some playstyles are overwhelmingly strong compared to others (e.g. your standard-issue hakaan metakinetic null who shoves enemies into each other for tremendous damage), and some enemies in the bestiary punch far above their stated EV (and this is practically official, seeing how infamous offenders like the chorogaunt and the thorn dragon were later reprinted in downgraded form).Some groups will like negotiations and montages. Others, not so much. As for me, I found the negotiation subsystem to be repetitive and too easily gameable, while montages were too loose and undefined on difficulties.It is still a game I would recommend to anyone looking for a 4e-like experience. I personally prefer 4e to Draw Steel, though I would gladly play or GM the latter still.I have a play report of a level 5 game over here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Be1a7GJ1gjK7SqYQWZmxA2Tx_nIF6vRcTNqOKuUUQ3g/edit
>>98104308All they want is structured, repetitive combat. Draw Steel is not a fucking story game. It's a minis skirmish game.
>>98103468>4e has good combatThat's completely subjective, especially considering that 4e didn't have a functional Monster Manual for a long time.
>>98103411>I would like 4 Spark Off Your Skin, pleaseYes, this is another irksome facet of Draw Steel for me. Some ancestries are flat-out better than others. Dwarf is a good general-purpose ancestry for the raw Stamina and the Stability, though in certain cases, you will instead want a hakaan for the extra forced movement.At higher levels, high elves and time raiders are good picks solely due to the daze immunity. Higher-level enemies dazing PCs can put a serious damper on a party's game plan.
>>98104343>Draw Steel is not a fucking story game. It's a minis skirmish game.I do not have an issue with this.>>98104373>4e didn't have a functional Monster Manual for a long time.That does not matter to me. I judge games as they are in the present day, so I judge 4e based on all books being available. (This is not that hard when the online and offline compendiums contain all official 4e material ever published.)I ran a session of 4e just yesterday, for reference.I likewise judge Draw Steel based on all books being available, though admittedly, not much has come out for it.
>>98104398>That does not matter to me.It kinda explains 4e's failure tho. And anyhow, that's not really important because combat is a slog. Draw Steel is less of a slog, but manages to be more immersion-breaking that 4e.
>>98103468>if you hate this game blame lancer.???I will probably regret it but what do you mean
>>98103005>>98103019This is like the apotheosis of late-aughts fantasy, as codified by 3.5, early 4e, and WoW. Whedonesque character writing, stupid overty elaborate names for fucking everything, over designed and overgreebled art influenced by the worst parts of MtG art and 90's comics. The combat looks neat, but fuck me everything I've never been more turned off by a game's aesthetics.
>>98103005>>98103055>>98103901>>98104636For what it is worth, what is pictured is an early draft of the dwarf section. The release version's dwarf section has been entirely rewritten, with a completely different (and more serious) tone.>>98104558>It kinda explains 4e's failure tho.Depends on your definition of "failure." I find 4e to be a good foundation for a grid-based tactical game, and I have been playing and DMing since it launch. (I DMed a 4e session just yesterday, as mentioned). To me, that is a success.>Draw Steel is less of a slog, but manages to be more immersion-breaking that 4e."Immersion" is very, very far down my list of priorities in grid-based tactical combat games. I care primarily about how well-balanced the metagame is and how much tactical depth there is.I personally prefer 4e's metagame to Draw Steel's, but I will hardly complain about playing or GMing the latter.
>>98104285>"I made the lair ability only attack enemies">"It's supposed to attack everyone">The evil undead spirit kills other evil undead spirits>???Instead of Draw Steel they should Draw Themselves Up A Better Game
>>98104717How would you rank all the more tactics driven, 4e-influenced RPG's that have come out in the past few years (this, Pathfinder 2e, 13th Age 2e) compared to 4e?
>>98104762The grid-based tactical combat games I have been liking are D&D 4e, Draw Steel, Path/Starfinder 2e, and indie titles such as Tailfeathers/Kazzam, Tacticians of Ahm, Tom Abbadon's ICON 2.0, and level2janitor's Tactiquest.Between the non-indie titles, 4e is still my favorite. I would personally rank them as follows: 4e > Draw Steel > Path/Starfinder 2e.That said, 4e has a very high barrier of entry, both as a player and as a DM. Completely out-of-the-box, in the hands of players and a GM who are not intimately familiar with the game, I would rank the non-indie titles as follows: Draw Steel > Path/Starfinder 2e > 4e. Yes, 4e really needs players and a DM who are already highly experienced with the mechanics for it to shine.13th Age 2e is not a grid-based game. It is still reasonably tactical, but it is not grid-based, so I do not consider it to be in the same category as 4e or Draw Steel. I find the PC option balance of 13th Age 2e to be fantastically executed, and I am a great fan of the system overall. I have been keeping a combat diary of my campaign here, in case you are interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HQC2x2FfjnBDZDaicQDCLWO2-R6xMyUAa_rJcMABpfw/edit
>>98104807>The grid-based tactical combat games I have been liking are D&D 4e, Draw Steel, Path/Starfinder 2eI mean I appreciate the approach. I respect you, I just despise people trying to sell those as RPG first.
Every week I play Draw Steel over the table, and it's easily the best tactical experience of any RPG I've ever played. Can't play D&D combat anymore, it is way too boring to me now.
>>98103005>>98103019The term is far too overused nowadays but i find it hard to describe this as anything other than "Reddit incarnate"
>>98105033>Catalog120% Colville-brained4e ruined the hobby forever, it attracted this kind of people
>>98101456..Eh, worth a look. Where should I start?
>>981032925e reactionaries is why draw steel exists but too much of 5E’s residual gayness stayed with the creators and it’s obvious in every page
>>98101456>off-brand BeholderAbsolutely disgusting.Just make something new.
>>98105809Even as far as offbrand beholders go that design is comically terrible
>>98101456>that overdesigned, Blizzard-esque shitpile of a beholder>that "human with bodypaint" excuse of an orc barbarian that is, as always, a woman>those Dota 2 cosmetic tier eyeball minions flying around>the complete and utter lack of a cohesive narrative or choreography present in the sceneFoul beyond words, this is comparable to AI generated images for the utter lack of humanity or soul permeating it
>>98102639>if you don't want to play D&D play D&D with the serial numbers filed offPossibly the stupidest post on /tg/ right now.
>>98106191>>those Dota 2 cosmetic tier eyeball minions flying aroundThey do kind of look like ward cosmetics, don't they....
>>98106216Literally the first thing i thought of, from the fact that they're all different, vibrant colours to the random ass crown added to add a smidge of extra detail on what's just a flying eyeball and nothing more
>>98106279Must be one of those evolving battlepass wards with all the different colorways.
Most i know of Matt Colville is watching a video of his that got recommended to me and reaching a part where he unironically said something like "and that's why i always write fantasy characters that speak like modern people!"At that point i clicked off the video
>>98106586I'm convinced that most of his audience don't actually process anything he says, because when you actually listen to his advice, it's fucking terrible and often contradictory. Not to mention that he's apparently incapable of putting any of it into practice in the games he's run on camera. One of the most successful retarded blowhards in the RPG hobby.
>>98106839He’s all bark and no bite. Midwits eat him up because he sounds like what they imagine a wise, well-adjusted adult who plays dnd would sound like. Anyone who actually runs games on a regular basis and knows how to read a room can tell how full of shit he is. Fucking grifter faggot
>>98103005Please tell me the whole book isn't written like this.
>>98105809>>98106168I do like the broader conceptual "fuck you" of taking the monster that WotC is most litigious about and creating a monster that is virtually identical in mechanics but is legally distinct enough that WotC can't do anything about it, but putting it on your cover and having it be so poorly designed feels less like a challenge to the big dog and more like they're desperate to be mistaken for them.
>>98104336Kill yourself edna.
>>98105809Absolutely disgusting. Just work on your art.
>>98106924>doesn't recognize RibbonFuck off, newfag.
>>98106958Fairly certain he's invoking the meme, but it's been so long, I could be wrong.
>>98106965I think it may actually be the genuine woyafag still being his weird bitch self.
>>98106839Can you post a few quotes of contradictory advice he's given?
>>98106976He made a video last year about how to fix the "forever DM" problem and his advice amounted to>Don't tell people to stop playing only D&D>Just run whatever system you (the GM) want, because the players (who don't want to play other systems that aren't D&D) will be forced to play since they don't do anything anyway. There is advice for what to do if players stop showing up because they refuse to learn a new system>And then get one of the other players (who refuse to ever DM/GM anything and never have) to run a game instead, because that's good for avoiding DM burnout.>Therefore, the solution to the Forever DM problem is just to not have the problem
>>98107000Fuck me. That should read >There is NO* advice for what to do if players stop showing up because they refuse to learn a new system
>>98107000>>98107009that sounds kinda retarded, if I understand correctly it is: "if you, the DM, want to play a new system, just start running games with it"a recipe for having nofriends, sounds like
>>98107060When I resumed GMing last I asked around my RPG friends if they wanted to play CoC. Most of them had never played but figured they'd try it out. The one guy who's autistic about DND played for 4 sessions, got stabbed to death by a cultist, then made up excuses to not show again. Another 2 dropped in the middle of the second module for vague reasons that translated into "Don't want to play."4 players remained, I've played multiple games with them for the past 4 years and we have good times. Running a game you don't want to run is moronic and a self-powered misery engine.
>>98104807I was initially excited about Path/Starfinder 2e but the more I've looked into it (classes, progression, settings), the less I care to keep an eye out for local groups for it. Good to hear about 13th Age 2e, though. How's ICON 2.0? I enjoyed a short Lancer campaign but it definitely wasn't perfect, and the DM had a hell of a time attempting to balance encounters.Never heard of Tailfeathers/Kazzam, Tacticians of Ahm, or Tactiquest.
>>98106972Still mentally ill, huh ribbonfag?
>>98107711ICON 2.0 currently has a pre-playtest alpha document, but it is very rough (and incomplete), and Tom Abbadon has already identified many spots in need of revision. There will be a more polished playtest document some time later this year, or perhaps next year.
>>98106972I'm surprised but disappointed the woyafag hasn't killed himself yet.
why(if) is the combat better than Lancer?
>>98107775i dislike icon 2.0 compared to 1.0. icon 1.0 had 16 very iconic classes. icon 2.0 has like 50 classes but they are shallow like sotdl and mix and match which is much less iconic
I don't get the point of the 4elikes like Draw Steel or Pathfinder 2e. They aren't as good as 4e in what they are trying to do and aren't ever going to have as much content. If I wanted my balanced tactical fantasy game I would play the complete one, especially because the compendiums are really easy to find and easy to use.Also Paizo and Colville are massive faggots and I don't want to support them. Even by playing their game for free.Please WotC, before you kill yourself from fucking up D&D and Fortniting MtG, please just release 4e from its horrible fucked up license and make it as open as the d20OGL so someone less retard and gay can make a good 4.5 that's backwards compatible.
>>98109660Just play 4e you dip
>>98109660>>98109705Na, Anon makes a good point. If IP laws weren't a viper's nest the decent thing to do is make a second dnd4e so fans could have the history of past content for their new game, which is ultimately what is driving this... Dare I speak these cursed words? "4e renaissance". Now I want it as a containment game, but wanting one game type to have one continuous line of releases is perfectly reasonable. People who like Call of Cthulhu or Delta Green, or any of the fucking spin offs, have 50 years of material to pull from that translates almost 1:1. 4e fans, due to a failure of society to cure them of their mental illness, have a handful of games with middling support to choose from, and none of them are compatible with each other. That's rough.
>>98109757>I need corposlop to make my gameFuck lol sucks to be a 4e player
>>98109775>>98109757Imagine still be this asshurt at 4e's existence 18 years later.
>>98102892Heh>>98101456Sell me on it. What makes it good?
>>98109821Or you could play it and stop waiting for a miracle…?
>>98109660>If I wanted my balanced tactical fantasy game I would play the complete oneBut that's not 4e.either. People want their heartbreakers because the parent game has its slew of issues and is fairly ass to get off the ground to run.
>>98103468What's Lancer got to do with it?
>>98104807I haven't played ICON yet but from looking at the rulebook it looked pretty interesting, save the forced-cozy setting maybe. Class mechanics looked well tjought out and I like Abaddon's art.
>>98109821Every day until they pay reparations to my ass.
Agreed. It really is impressive that Matt Colville managed to write the best RPG combat on his first attempt at game design. Plays a lot like a skirmish wargame with lots of cues from MOBAs and 40k, with personal resources that can be used to power up abilities and abilities that have a lot of combo synergy with each other
>>98110471It wasn't Colville, it was Introcaso, who is one of us. Crows looking good
>>98109884>>98104566its the popularity of lancer that lead to the most recent wave of combat focused RPGs. People largely gave up on combat centric games after 4e until lancer pushed that subtype of TTRPG back to prominence . the anti 4e propaganda was so strong that it took a total genre break to re-engage this subgenre.between 4e and lancer how many TTTRPGS did we get? 13th age - this was from the same devs as 4e and some people consider it TTTRPG adjacent instead of TTRPG. Pathfinder 2e? This game was made to give kingmaker 2's cRPG a better combat engine than 3.5 but with fun replaced by filler.
>>98101456>not a game about gerrymandering election mapsFalse advertisement.
>>98112500StEEl not stEAl anon.Gerrymandering drawing would be a funny board game.
I enjoy Draw Steel, but do not care for the default setting. I reskinned the races and we played a campaign in Warcraft's universe and we had a great time.
>>98107000>>98107009>There is no advice for what to do if players stop showing up because they refuse to learn a new systemThat's one of the biggest issues with D&D being the first and often the only system for most people though, this whole idea of having to put effort into learning the system is an absolute bullshit and barely a thing for 95% of other games worth a damn. In most cases the GM can give you the rundown of everything that you absolutely need to know to play as a beginner in no more than 5 minutes and then maybe introduce new concepts as they become relevant. But because D&D is such a clunky, overdesigned mess full of shitty relics from previous editions, with each class having a bunch of unique and often very arbitrary mechanics or limitations that you need to learn and understand to play even at a very basic level, it makes newbies believe that every RPG system is like that and actively discourages them from trying anything else.
>>98113621the inability to shell a shrimple game to a table that plays 5e (or any other game) is a skill issue and has nothing to do with d&d.the fact that there's so many other games that are 'popular' is indicative that 5e players will swap.
>>98105809>>98106916If anything Microsoft could go after them, fucking thing looks exactly like one of the demons in WoW.
>>98103005>>98101456>>98103019I love how you don't even need to read anything, one glance at the art and you know this game is gay and soulless.
>>98113659>has nothing to do with d&d.It has everything to do with D&D, because every retarded D&D-only player who is too brain damaged and scared to learn a new system always tells everyone who wants to get into the hobby that D&D is the easiest game to learn. These people love the idea of playing other genres, other types of games, but will always shy away from actually learning anything else, and will sooner insist that awkwardly cramming D&D into a genre-shaped box it wasn't made for is the same thing as playing a different system.
>>98115317Nta, but I'd say that 85 percent of the time someone on here complains about how they can't get out of the 5e hole, with a little bit of elaboration it comes out that the person complaining has actually done a fucking awful job of introducing any new games to their group. Are their groups that absolutely won't quit 5e no matter what? Probably, yeah, but I think there are far more people out there who's idea of pitching a game is talking about how cool it would be and then expecting the players to do a bunch of homework, or pitching a game that, on the surface, is just a slight variation on the same thing (like, I hate 5e, let's play pathfinder instead! To the layman, it seems like you're trading one heroic action fantasy game, for another fantasy game that has the massive negative of not already knowing it.)
>>98115317No, you are just awful at selling your different game. The fact that Fatt Coville made a new company and game based on leeching 5e players from that game shows it’s possible and viable. Use your brain you troglodyte - which is ironic because that’s what you blame 5e players of lacking
>>98115489Draw Steel isn't about leeching 5E players it's about grabbing 4E players you idiot.
>>98115482>the person complaining has actually done a fucking awful job of introducing any new games to their groupMost of the time, it never even gets to that step and the reason no one ever really tries is because they think learning a new system will be as hard, or harder, than learning 5e, which they still struggle with after years of playing.If the players aren't willing to learn the rules or even crack open a quickstart or just pirate the PDF, which has always been piss easy, it's because they aren't genuinely willing to even begin learning a different system.>>98115489Matt Colville only proved that he can sell a game to Matt Colville fans and other D&D youtubers. The total lack of wider conversation about the system doesn't really paint a picture of a vibrant and lively community.
>>98115543>makes a robust how to DM series for the worlds greatest RPG on YouTube and builds a community>makes their own game to cater to that audience>it just happens that he loves 4e so he uses it as a base for his new game>5e players are interested to be converted to a new system, which has roots in the game they play anyways>>98115601Better stick with 5e then I guess
