It's retarded
>>98119468Good reason to not play it, then.
>>98119468What is, exactly?If its the fact that "Terrain" isnt the actual wall but an abstract square on the field? Then i agree, the rest seem fine
>>98119468Yes and no. I don't know about this specific edition so I can't tell you but two decades ago it would make sense because Cover is just one step and then you have stuff like "since only two units are out of cover in unit B only those two can be casualties" so the whole process was making more sense than a taken out of context step.Truth is it's a clunky and tedious machine. If the whole unit is in matching sized cover then you don't have Line of Sight so no shootty at all but if even one model peeks out you now have Line of Sight but the whole unit has Cover.If the cover is half sized then you have LoS but as long as half the target unit's models are behind it the whole unit has Cover. Simple as.Ideally your system of choice have Obscured as well as Cover so you can apply shooting penalty instead of denying LoS. Plus Armor Level for cover too so if your models have Armor 3 but try to hide behind wooden door with Armor 2 it doesn't give any bonus. This way the most badass units can just stroll along the whole battlefield and everybody can feel how much outrageous bullshit they are.
>>98119514Yes, terrain 'squares' with some abstract force fields of protection are garbage slop, designed for tourney play
>>98119468Wait.>all of a unit has to be in terrain or no cover>even if it's just one model out of 10>but if you're outside of cover and obscured by literally nothing since it's just an area, you get the cover bonusTourneyslop rules.
>>98120408>terrain 'squares' with some abstract force fields of protection are garbage slop, designed for tourney playeh idk, I think that probably represents the effect of terrain pretty well given the practical problems of displaying rough terrain on a physical field without fucking up movement distances and stuff.
Autistics can't grapple with abstraction. What else is new?
>>98119468>flat terrain with force field>more L shaped buildings>no height difference>no more templates for aoeWhy are people still playing this shit? Its the most souless shit ever.
>>9812233240k ain't even abstract, its just shit.
>>98122383Warmachine bullshit.Catering to tournamentfags should be punished with death
>>98122383>no more templatesDoes 40gay really not have templates anymore? Where is all this template hate coming from and when did it start? It was the most fun part of shooting.
Wouldn't it be more sensible to do an incremental cover system? Idk how other wargames do it and I haven't played Warhammer in a hot minute but surely there's a way to balance it while keeping it snappy for the ADHD riddled normies they're trying to speed the game up for.
>>98122467>warmahordes 40,000Oh my god.
>>98122523Tournament fags happen. Even with bigger base its not really an issue and "autistic spreading" was never a real thing.
>>98122541Lmao.Yes, it was. Especially in events.It was tedious as fuck
>>98122559>especially in shitty waacfag gatheringsWow!
>>98122575I think that was his point, yes. WAACfags exist.
>>98122575Yeah dude the people who showed up to win tournaments are using the rules to win tournaments. And since that gets more publicity than two dudes casually playing at the LGS, that's what people think needs to be balanced for. It sucks but it's just reality.
>>98122541Sounds fucking retarded, glad I dropped it after 5th edition. >>98122559Spreading units out under threat from AoE weapons is just what you do. If you don't like it you shouldn't be playing a tabletop wargame at all instead of whining to get the rules changed. I'm fucking floored the same kinds of absolute faggots that sucked the fun out of early MLG ladders also wormed their way into tabletop like a scourge. Fucking wow man.
>>98122559>complains about templates>waacfagEvery fucking time.
>>98122609>Sounds fucking retarded, glad I dropped it after 5th edition.>dropped it after 5th edition.>5th>templates got dropped on 8thAt least read about the game before you make wild claims.
>>98122619That means absolutely nothing to me. For one I couldn't have known that having not played since 5th. Second of all, you are gay. Thirdly all of my opinions are objective fact.
>>98122638>Thirdly all of my opinions are objective fact.>waacfag>waacfags are always incorrect and wrongSorry I did not know you are terminally ill.
>>98122653I don't even know what your madeup word means gay boy. My stance is templates good and its not changing until you provide some legitimate argument against them, which you can't.
>>98122530Idk why they can't just base it on line of sight, magical zones of range debuff because you're in the cover-square(tm) just reek of tourney play faggotry. This and the 9 inch coherency rule are pure aids that gimp play for a bunch of tryhard tourney speds, they're sucking any degree of tabletop war sim out the game to appeal to the most subhuman bugmen on the planet
>>98122609Micro managing for shit like that was tedious. It added zero tactical depth it just took more and more time.
>>98122523I dont have a problem with Templates in 40k, but i never understood their purpose with Fantasy when all the models are in neat box formations anyways, you can literally just make it be a random amount of attacks, and nothing would change (No, templates floating to hit an another unit once in a thousand games doesnt count as a reason to have them).But then again, i never understood why somone would prefer to play Fantasy when Warmaster exists
>>98122823They can't because these 'tourneyfags' as they are known in this niche, brigade to get the skill ceiling lowered to their lazy bitch ass level because they think it'll give them a shot at the top 1%. It won't and just ruins the game for everyone else, eventually leading to a flatline in popularity.>t. former competitive gaymer
>>98122833I wont agree, it has tactical advantage in a less abstract terrain system, or when hiding units behind vehicles.When you drop your marine squad out of a rhino, you have to make a choice to gather them all together behind it, but vulnurable to templates, or spread them out and make them visible for other weapons.Its also something real militaries do
>>98122833Its a turn based tabletop game my man. The entire point is tedious micromanagement. Wouldn't it make more sense to champion something that makes the game feel less tedious without actually changing the fundamentals in a way that degrades the game like alternating activation?
>>98122729Not me but, i personally cannot stand proprietary game components, such as artillery dice, scatter dice, other dice with custom images that dont just stand in for numbers, special rulers, cards, special tokens and all that crap, and i think its not that of an unpopular opinion for GW to ignore. Not really an argument but a personal autism (Blood Bowl is the exception tho)
>>98122873Honest to god, when i first started learning 40k, it took me and my friend like 5 games at my house, and then going to a club and somone pointing it out to us, to understand how phases actually work, because we were alternating them between players (i move, you move, i shoot you shoot etc.) Simply because just having expirience with something like Heroes of Might and Magic, made us fundamentally reject what was actually written, and think that we are just reading wrong because we are not english natives.To this day, i genuinely cannot comprehend what the logic and purpose of the IgoUgo is
>>98122877You don't need actual templates to use templates, its called radial measuring and if that's not quick enough for you cut out some paper which works better anyway because its easy to rest on models. >>98122885I came back to the tabletop scene for the Starcraft game coming out and thought the alternating activation was pretty genius. I was pretty sure 11th edition 40k would also have it but I guess not.
>>98119468Good. Area terrain makes the game play better and moves things away from the gay philosophy of TLOS that assumes the soldiers are frozen in their model's pose, and that terrain is a literal representation of the features and rubble instead of just the visual aids that exist with concessions to playability.
>>98122912All the good games workshop ruleswriters are working on Specialist games, which then get shitted on or forgotten.I have a theory that they take new promising guys to make Specialist stuff, then promote them to work on big league games, and they then have to either cave in for the what the suits want, or leave. I have no proof but the Warcry guy leaving for seemingly no reason but still
>>98122913You are also fine with all the infantry models being able to completely phase through terrain right?>that assumes the soldiers are frozen in their model's poseLiterally noone ever played it like this, rules even statet at some point that what actually matters are the torsos, stuff like hands waving around and barrels and antenas and what not should be ignored
>>98122913>terrain is a literal representationBecause it is and should be. There's no argument for this not ever being the case. What are you trying to do, substitute a spoon for a building like some kind of downie?
>>98122964These people really should play a game that actually works how they want it to work.That being something in 6-10mm range
>>98119468I think what a lot of people are missing too, is that 40k has grown in the number of models drastically, while shrinking the tables(not counting the base size increase), games are with bigger armies, because GW wants to sell more toysoliders, but to comfortably play with more toy soldiers, you would simplify the rules so that the games doesnt take too long for ADHD ridden little Timmy
>>98122913I agree with this, but what we have here is possibly the clunkiest way possible to implement that.
>>98123062Really not sure what parts about it are clunky
>>98122467The terrain rules remind me of 4th and 3rd. I dont understand what people are so upset about.
I'd be interested in seeing the new rules. It looks like it doesn't go far enough but it's still a step back onto the right path.Obviously it's been a long time since 5th, but I'm still a little surprised that the cultural memory of area terrain rules has faded to the poing where the usual tedious retards are using this as an excuse to cry about tourneyfags even though the removal of area terrain rules paved the way for the L shaped MDF ruins shit in the first instance.Although>>98122383>flat terrain with force field>more L shaped buildingsthis clown is reading all this shit out of a diagram so maybe all you fuckwits want to do is mald about tournaments no matter how retarded or nogaems you come across. "Pretending to be retarded is the lowest form of trolling" doesn't get repeated nearly enough these days.
>>98123266If you ignore the part where units freely move through walls i guess, its a much dumber abstraction imo thats been a part of 40k for an entire edition i think
>>98123017The shrinking play space and simplified play style also destroys the importance of maneuver. All the additional cards and skills and aha gotchas are a pathetic attempt at reinstating ’depth’ in a game that’s been moronified and tourneyfagged since 8th edition.
>>98122964It is not. There is a large degree of scale compression from the ground scale alone, and a lot of building proportions make concessions to needing to move models and their bases around in the space. They are not, and never have been if you think about wargame scale for more than 5 seconds.
I want to run a YouTube series where I take two newfags who’ve only ever played 8th ed onwards and run them through every iteration from RT to 7th edition and see how they do and which version they like best.
>>98123356Sounds like a fun thing to go through by yourself, why would you want to make some other people do it, are you like a tabletop cuck or something?
>>98123374I’ve been playing 40K since 1988, it’d be fun to take an 8th and onwards player through the evolution of the game so they learn how dumbed down and soulless it’s become.
>>98123432Whats your favourite? I only started with 7
>>98123351Why do you think your rinky dink dipshit 2000 point battle would take place around some colossal megastructure no one could ever possibly represent properly at scale? The outpost tower thing >>98123351is like the biggest thing you'd ever see and its smaller than a coffee pot.
>>981235214th by far
>>98120408Cover can represent a physical or visual barrier, so long as it makes it harder to hit the target. The only issue with it is all of Unit B counts as not being in cover, rather than just the models outside it.
>>98121796Terrain Area predates tourney. It's an abstracted concept to accommodate practicality (you can move your minis inside a "forest" of four trees on a green cloth without knocking down the whole thing) and allow cool diorama.
>>98124319This. It has been a thing since fantasy battles. The current TLoS system lead to L shaped ruins and the shitty looking tables 40k has today. Not to say that this will fix the aesthetics as you can now slap on some neoprene mats and call it terrain
>>98124358Are you the 4th edition enthusiast that want to do the Youtube serie? You're the only one that make sense here.Back in the day Area Terrain meant you could go crazy on your diorama but nowaday the risk that it will end up with overpriced 2d mats is very VERY real. Does GW even publish a "How To Make Wargaming Terrain" equivalent anymore? If not they definitely are to blame.
>>98124371It's no coincidence they're releasing prepainted terrain with these rule changes. They want a new player to walk into a store or an event and be impressed by a 40K table. While these new rules are great for hobbying and playing on good looking terrain there is a real chance the most cut-throat tourneyfags will end up playing on flat tables.
>>98124430Terrain has ALWAYS been a sticking point. You'd be surprised (or maybe not) at how many games late in 2nd still just used the walls you got in the starter box, with a few books or other items dragooned into service as hills/contours or the like.Even 'historical' clubs I've been to have been mainly reliant on one or two guys who would be hot-shit train set builders if they hadn't got into dice and uniforms first.If GW offering a quick-and-dirty option that eliminates the "ugh I hate painting walls" excuse is what it takes to move away from planet bowling ball then I'll take that. All the better if it sparks the inspiration in people.
>>98120408It seems to be tuned for GW's push into the Japanese market alongside the rebranded paints and new stores. There's already fucking 25 stores in Tokyo now apparently.From what I've heard from people in JP the JP players fucking love L shaped ruins and terrain templates and refuse to use asymmetric missions because they want games to be "balanced" and "fair" in fucking 40K
>>98124503And I should add that this is in casual play because Japan doesn't even have official tournaments
>>98124503I'm not sure about Japanese specifically, and there were always people who'd lay out a symmetrical setup, but I do wonder if years of vidya 'balancing' in RTS and the like have skewed people's idea of how a table should look. That's the main reference point for a lot of new blood these days, not old war movies, sword and sandal epics or even history books.
>>98122467Is Warmachine still around? I remember it sucking up all the WAAC tourneyfags for a while, I think we need more of that so all the latest "warhammer 40k is an e-sport" faggots leave.
>>98124503>refuse to use asymmetric missions because they want games to be "balanced" and "fair" in fucking 40KIsn't that the culture for 40K all around the world? The 11th edition premier game was hosted in a "Esports" centre which tells a lot about the state of modern 40K
>>98119468It’s crazy that 11th is filled with gay tourneyfag rules because the American they hired to be lead designer is dogshit at the game and has never placed above bottom half in his life.t. grew up playing 40k with the guy and took him to his first major
>>98124527Only for tourneyfags, casual players hate L shaped ruins and terrain templates because they want to take cool photos of their model soldiers fighting in a diorama-like setting while they play a cool game, not grey plastic men standing next to cardboard doing mtg yugioh bullshit.
>>98124522Yep, the new generation grew up on AoE/Starcraft when the former grew up on WWII movies/series.>>98124480If GW knows people were using el cheapo cardboard terrain during the whole of 2nd Ed. then they should definitely release a dozen of preprinted cardboard buildings in the next starter set. They won't because they are greedy af but then they deserve the current cancer.
>>98124543>el cheapoFunnily enough, that could be a sticking point. It doesn't look as sexy or substantial as a plastic slab, and they want that perception of 'boutique', for want of a better phrase.
>>98124543Haven't they had problems with cardstock providers in the last few years (Cursed City most famously)? That would lead to some wariness.
>>98123017Same thing happened in fantasy, just got more bloated and bloated over the edition's, most (in)famously in 8th edition.This means we must consider Age of Sigmar as the only trve heir to oldhammer...
>>9812386040k vehicles don't even match the scale of the minis, but they do block TLOS which makes TLOS fake and gay. It should be called FGLOS for Fake and Gay Line Of Sight
>>98124816True Line Of Sight has always been Fake And Gay Line Of Sight. They are the very same.When someone chose to design your game around TLOS, what can they expect apart stupid bickering? We could excuse this bullshit in the 80s when wargaming was still a gentlemen's affair but nowaday? In our low social cohesion hustle economic zone? L.O.L.
>>98124603More likely than you think
>>98125019Also beastmen not being a separate faction counts towards that too
>>98124530Tell us more
>>98122383Area terrain will specifically let you populate it with whatever you want (cliffs, trees, tyranid dildos) since you no longer need the TLOS-blocking provided by a solid wall to give meaningful protection. If you hate L-shaped ruins you should welcome area terrain.>>98123308Thanks for being a voice of sanity.
>>98124371At least in 4th things like picture related could be area terrain and impassable terrain.As in the infantry just counted as difficult terrain and area terrain (meaning they could ignore the walls and get cover if they are 6" deep from the edge of the terrain) while Walkers, tanks and monster could not enter the building.It did not had fix rules for terrain and it used general rules and told players: "don't be a waacfag retard and use basic logic"Direction of the shot could also count. Just touching a barricade would not count as cover if you are not behind it for example.
Do you faggots seriously not remember when 40k used area terrain?
>>98122541>>98122559I had to do it in casual games just for torrents to not instantly delete whole hordes of Boys, particularly with my most common opponent a GK player who brought two Dreadknights with mega-incinerators
>>98123017Isn't that Space wolf army ilegal?You could only have 2 heavy weapons with the long fangs. No idea how they have 2 HQ when space wolves could only have 1. Haven't face a 3rd edition SW army in ages since my regular 4th player none of them plays marines.
>>98125410>DreadknightsHappen when you play shit editions.But also autistic spreading was never needed. Just regular eyeballing was enough to mitigate templates.How do I know? I'm playing GSC currently in 4th and the fuckers are T3 with no save.
>>98125393They can not "remember" because they were not here. It's all zoomzooms afraid of having their own opinion so one day one of them will learn about Ye Olde Area Terrrain and will zoom on a Discord to ask his groomers "chat is this real?" and then one eceleb will make a clickbait video about it and then suddenly they will all remember at once. Just wait.
>>98123860The standard building code for a single door is 32-36 inches. In roughly 1/72 scale, a 25mm base is 72 inches, and a 32mm is 90 inches. A single door width opening often modeled with a single door in a terrain piece is 2x larger at scale than it should be. Terrain pieces are abstractions.Shooting ranges have an obvious degree of range compression. Take Bolt Action, where we can compare against empirical data. Are we really to believe that a rifleman cannot engage a point target beyond 48 yards? Of course not. Some range compression is for the sake of playing on a table and often it tries to take into account the natural undulations that can conceal a cautiously moving man but which are not easily represented on a flat table.
