Vancian magic sucks. what other magic systems would you replace it with and the magical schools found in dnd?
DND magic is actually really historically close to how realistic magic work...Go read Jack Vance Dance!
>>98123440I don't like historical realistic non-fiction.
Wizard should be able to cast any spell any number of times without restriction. Fighter can swing the sword any number of times, so it's only fair.
>>98123440the only realistic magic is sawing a lady in half and then putting them back together
>>98123452>Wizard should be able to cast any spell any number of times without restriction.This but literally unironically...
>>98123435D&D already has alternative magic systems: - mana points (usually used for "psionic" powers, but you could easily use it for arcane and divine magic)- at-will magic (Warlock invocations)- a mix of at-will and Vancian (4e)- per-encounter instead of per-day vancian (Swordsage)- Binders- Truenamers- IncarnumJust pick what you like and adapt it to your campaign
>>98123452video games unironically have tried this route for balance purposesalbeit both magic and swords just getting similar restrictions rather than both having nonesword swings consume stamina, magic consumes mana, but neither can "run out"other solutions are making swords just stronger than magic at all stages of the game to compensate for reduced range and flexibilityor making magic and sword equally available to everyone rather than having sharp divides between them and treating both as necessary elements for builts and treating pures as anomalies
>>98123468None of these address the issue with the main magical system for mages and wizards.
>>98123435>Only women are capable of using magic.>Magical power directly correlates with breast size.
>>98123452>Fighter can swing the sword any number of times, so it's only fair.So when can a Fighter swinging a sword have the same effect as any spell?
>>98123494That was tried in DnD 4e and everyone hated it.
>>98123435>Vancian magic sucks.False premise, thread discarded.
>>98123479>>Only women are capable of using magic.>>Magical power directly correlates with breast size.
>>98123440>DND magic is actually really historically close to how realistic magic work...Is Ars Magica anything like it
I've always been fascinated by how how western writers accidentally reversed engineered wuxia's chi through MP/mana(a misrepresentation of a very varied Polynesian concept), that's how much they didn't want to work with Vancian magic
>>98123435The problem with vancian magic as used by D&D is that it's conceptually boring.Spells are listed off as these individual items that are one and done deals where putting them into higher spell slots only makes the number go up and doesn't do anything interesting beyond that or offer any new options. There is also the fact there are no uses for the spell slots outside of tying a spell to it. What sort of interesting options could there be if you could choose to hold a few slots and expend the magic of that slot to use a class ability instead of a spell?The spells are written and made the way they are because having a bunch of individual spells fills pages and doing anything new with the magic system in general would warrant a new game and IP least the slaughtering of the sacred cow upset grogs who'd have anal prolapses of anger at the idea of change.
>>98123435>Vancian magic sucksHow would you know when no game system has implemented it?Even Gary said D&D magic was >"Vancian"not >Vancian
>>98123440>how realistic magic workThe what now?
>>98123571MP also just naturally tracks more with how we abstract effortyou can cast a big thing a few times or a small thing a lot of times, which aligns with our intuition of physical exertion, you have a certain amount of "stamina" which can be spent doing a hundred easy reps or a dozen hard onesvance-style spell slots, where you have 1x big spell and 3x small ones just feels like an arbitrary limitationwhich is acceptable when your magic system is meant to be deliberately arcane, unintuitive, and filled with random BS , but most people dont play or dont want to play in that kind of universe where magic is a means to achieve a goal in the game rather than being the entire game itself
>>98123494It also ignores the main downside of the sword: in order to swing it, you have to be in melee. The actual truth is that you can only swing your sword as long as you have hp, and sword swinging it's going to cost you far more HP than spell slinging.
>>98123435The bones if shadowrun's system are really fun, even if the system is dogshit.>Can cast spells endless amounts of time>Have to make a test to avoid taking stun damage because you're basically channeling raw mana through your body>Can do more powerful spells than you're technically able to, but run the risk of taking worse damage >Ways to mitigate in totems and shit, but those have there own downsides.
>>98123478>None of these address the issue with the main magical system for mages and wizards.They could if you want them to. For example: spell points (basically mana) are a variant rule in Unearthed Arcana. Use it, and the main magical system for you game's mages and wizards is no longer Vancian. And if you don't like that one, just scratch off the name of Binder or whatever, call it a wizard, and voila! Your game's main magic system is whatever you choose.
>>98123648Ask noted wizard and general bitter old cunt Alan Moore.
>>98123435The systems I tend to like the most for magic are ones which have generic but reflavorable spell effects for combat and other structured encounters but also allow for easy freeform casting for situations out of combat or longer projects that take the form of magic rituals. Savage world's power system is probably my favorite, I love the idea of trappings and the cantrip/ritual systems. Genesys is another good one but I feel like people forget its supposed to be more freeform outside of structured encounters and the specific spell effects/action and resource economy for mages isn't the best.To put it shrimply, when things need to be specific and balanced(usually combat) I want hard rules on what you can do but prefer the visuals and elements of spells to be chosen by the player rather than needing to have multiple specific spells for fireball acid arrow etc, and outside of those situations I think you should be able to argue based on your "trappings" what your magic can and cant do with simple skill rolls and perform longer ritual style tasks expending resources and time to do things the rules don't normally let you do worked out with the gm as needed.
>>98123435Make your players draw magical circles using rulers and protractors and the accuracy decides the potency of the spell.Immediately at the beginning of their next turn, they must either submit their spell or take another turn casting, and if another player seems to be wasting time to give more time for the drawing, you end their turn early.The players can't trace by placing their paper over a copy of the circle, or used previously drawn circles, but are free to use other objects, such as cups or other objects to draw faster circles and other shapes.As they progress in the game, they can earn runes, which increase the potency of the spells, but using them in battle too often can have the runes learned by surviving enemies, and a rune that is known by more than one person greatly diminishes in potency.
>>98123616nigga what are you on about. the individual spell list from dnd is one of the few redeeming qualities of the game. you're never going to have a cool magic system based on generic shit like "control" fire or whatever. you need actual spells.
>>98123815what are YOU on about, thats one of the most annoying things about dnd/pathfinder magic.You can also have "actual spells" without making them down to the letter specific.
>>98123847no. if you're going to claim that a vast, varied and plentiful spell list is bad is you who have to come for a reasoning with it. i'm not going to argue with you your contrarian opinion unless you provide some reasoning behind it. you certainly will not, because this is just another case of terminal contrarian thinking his smart.
>>98123440There's not a single magical tradition throughout history that functions on storing spells in your brain until you use them and erase them, needing to memorize them again the next morning.
>>98123435There are only four magic systems that exist, there's variants but it all boils down to thse.>VancianD&D>manaD&D psionics>skill checkL5r>Super powersM&MPick one.
>>98123869Because it isn't a vast and varied spell list? The spell lists of dnd/pathfinder are rather restrictive actually, because as stated before they are very specific in their effects and there are a lot of effects that aren't included in that "vast" list of spells(including many that are obviously possible in universe but not available as spells for some reason). On top of that because of how specific the effects are plenty of spells on those lists are just different variations of similar effects sometimes at a higher level or with a different element.I don't want to have to worry about if a spell works in the specific way I want with the specific numbers for a particular task, or what damaging spells in xyz element are actually viable when I'm trying to theme a character around acid or death or something. I would much rather have a generic "control fire" skill/spell that gives me a lot more control over what my character can actually do with their magic. How about YOU explain why you think dnd magic is so vast and varied when a 5th edition necromancer doesn't even have rules to animate anything other than fucking ghouls/wights/mummies with create undead for example.
>>98123971>it isn't a vast and varied spell list>spells have strictly defined effectsThat's why it's vast and varied, because every possible desired effects needs a different spell.>I would much rather have a generic "control fire" skill/spellPlay a cape game, you want super powers.
>>98124011That doesn't inherently make it vast and varied though, again there are reasonable magical effects that don't have concrete spells in basically every edition of dnd, and on the flip side you have games like pf2e where the spell list is massive but most of them suck AND its really not that varied at all.>Play a cape game, you want super powers.I mean yes the power point buy systems for supers games are also pretty good, I'm not sure why you're saying that like its a distinct concept from magic especially when magic users exist in most of those supers settings and you could easily make fantasy versions of those systems(like fantasy HERO).
>>98123435>>98123536>>98123616Witches for Thulsa Doom?
>>98123616>expend the magic of that slot to use a class ability instead of a spellPretty sure 5e Paladins do that.
>>98123435In the game I designed, every spell has its own rules. There is no overarching system. If a character learns say, half a dozen spells, then knowledge about those spells give no insight into how the next spell might work. The cost of using magic varies. Some spells drain stats when they are cast, some spells impose limitations on the mage. Some spells cause permanent injuries that are only alleviated when the spell ends. Some spells are permanent until a counter curse is uttered. I really dislike spell systems that turn magic into vending machine effects that are symmetrical throughout the system. Predictability ruins magic. Magic should be, in my opinion, powerful, dangerous, and utterly unknowable to anyone who does not possess arcane knowledge.
>>98123468This is the exact problem with D&D: every spellcaster is playing with his own system.
>>98123761>shadowrunThe equivalent of The Elder Scrolls video games in tg form. As you play you know that you're glimpsing something incredible that COULD be perfect and that has all the right ideas deep down, but the execution is so garbage that it just makes you roll your eyes sometimes.
>>98124054Come on man be more subtle when you're baiting.
I just made spells in my setting single use consumables you have to prepare/create in advance. Makes material components more important but besides that mechanically it works quite well with d&d like systems. Mainly made it that way because it works with the lore of my custom setting but doesn't require me to build a game system from scratch. So I can easily use whatever game system my players enjoy the most without conversions being annoying. It also allows me as a gm add or remove spells simply by making their material components more or less available.Oh that homebrew weird spell that one of the players wanted to try because they saw it online just happens to be utterly broken in a unexpected way. Welp it turns out the material to make that spell is nowhere to be found. What a shame. The dungeon they are heading to just so happens to have a cold and ice theme. Well what do you know, this moss happens to be the material component to a spell that makes your shoes treat ice as normal terain, and the fur of the beast slain in front of the dungeon just so happens to make a potion that allows the immunity to environmental cold damage.Though to be honest the players usually just buy or collect materials in advance for the particular and common workhorse spells they prefer.That said they can ask/roll if their character knows if they could use a material for something based on their background knowledge and expertise. Again usually gets asked about things that can substitute for other things, and usually I will just ask the player if they can describe how the substitute would work in the device/spell. If they can't really describe something then the answer is usually no, but if they can then even if it isn't "realistically" or "grounded" I will usually allow it. Like using the abrasion of toothpaste enhanced with magic energy and sand to create a improvised etch stone spell that they used to mark rally points and other navigation aids when the group was lost.
>>98125007Sounds like dogshit. Imagine being a spellcaster player and having to rely on "availability" (DM whim) to make use of your basic abilities.It only tightens the restrictions that were in place in the vancian system instead of offering more freedom or an engaging experience.But if your players like it then it's fine I guess.
>>98125034Most standard spells have standard materials that can be bought or found easily. Exotic, extremely situational, and potentially game breaking spells have exotic, extremely situational, or whole quest lines related to getting the material components.Players like it because it's flexible and allows for creative license on their part. New player to my table just hate that they can't mindlessley cantrip spam anymore. Even cantrip level spells effectively have ammo counts that will be tracked and have to be created and equipped in advance. Also slots of equitable items for quick access are a thing, and no a spell in your backpack can't be pulled out in a single action during combat. Etc.Once they get used to resource management and thinking about what they have equipped in their quick draw slots they usually like the system just fine. Martials love the slots because it makes throwing stuff or using utility items during combat more viable without a bunch of feats n shit.
>>98123435Wh40K FFG style risk/reward system. The more powerful spell you want to cast, the more chance of getting unforseen consequences
>>98123435As someone who spend years thinking that magic = mana or some other type of point system until I got into TTRPGs, I fucking olev Vncian Magic (or slot based I guess).Not having a fungible resource means that you have to make decisions and that you never really stop using "lower level spells" or get funneled into using just the bestest of the best since you can just pool your resources into doing that, which is great for a game with a variety of spell effects that you have to choose from to create your own repertoire.
>>98123971the spell list being specific is the reason why is varied in the first place. vague descriptions of controlling a certain thing can't be considered spells in the real definition of magic or spell craft. since in real life spells existed for specific effects too. but taking all tecnicisms aside, the magic systems widely considered the best for their flexibility are ars magica and mage the ascension, and those system have specific spell lists like DND does. there's no way you can claim you have a good magic system and then providing just a generic framework without limited applications. every game would be avatar the air bender.>5Emaybe this is your problem bro. why the fuck are you playing this dogshit. 3.5 has gorillion of spells. and advanced d&d has instructions to make your own spells and how to level them appropriately and how can your wizard learn them. 5E is probably the worst shit in regards to freedom or doing cool stuff.
>>98123435My system uses an MP system coupled with a list of Spell Tags, each with an MP Cost that compounds. You can have one range type (Melee, Ranged), one Damage Type or Effect (you cannot have both), and one Area of Effect type on a single Spell. A Spell deals rolls of your damage die (determined by your Class's casting skill - 1 on a scale from flat 1 with 0 in the skill to 1d12 if you somehow have a bonus to the base 5) equal to the level of the damage type if it is damage based, but you can spend MP as if a lower rank damage type was a higher one you can access to increase its damage dice up to that value. Casters have no free method of attacking however, so it's prudent to carry a weapon, even if your damage die is two stages lower for all weapons. The only caster that doesn't suffer the -1 to its damage die's scale is the Spellsoul, the dedicated blaster option.There is no fixed spell list either; you can have a set of pre-made ones you use often, but the idea is to be able to make spells on the fly and not have to worry about the dogshit balance D&D has for its spells where half of them are useless and the other half snap the game in half. There are no Walls of Force, there is no Banishment, there is no Forcecage, there is no Sleep, and there is no Hypnotic Pattern. Spell effects are buffs (almost entirely exclusive to the healer class) or debuffs (almost entirely exclusive to the wizard). Any other magical effects such as illusions are tied to your chosen class abilities rather than your tag list. You also won't be making a diet fireball anytime soon, as the radius AoEs are tied to the highest ranks of tags.Martials have their own branch of psuedomagic called Enhancement Arts. They can spend their (very finite) MP to empower their attacks or themselves rather than affecting other characters or the world around them.
>>98125285>advanced d&d has instructions to make your own spells and how to level them appropriately and how can your wizard learn them5e actually has a section in the DMG on how to design new spells, and it's hilarious that Fireball is absolutely not balanced using those rules because D&D loves its sacred cows.
>>98125231I've had the opposite experience. I never really played any fantasy VRPGs or anything growing up, so my first real exposure was D&D, specifically 5th ed back when it came out, and once I found the Spell Points variant rule while I still ran D&D anyway I used it exclusively, and when I made my own fantasy RPG I opted for an MP system because it was easier to balance around.You're still going to use lower level spells in my system, because if you blow all your MP on your biggest spells you're just going to sit there without any MP for the entire fight and will have to fall back on a weapon you suck with because full casters take a debuff to weapon damage (and cannot wear armor).
>>98125285I've played much more pathfinder than 5e, that was just my go to example for how such a """varied""" spell list lacks basic things you can clearly do in setting and really that specific example applies to 3.5 and pathfinder 1e create undead too even if their lists are obviously longer. I am also aware of spell creation rules, they're in every edition as far as I'm aware. People don't really use them and they are often prohibitively expensive/time consuming because of the relative power letting you just make your own spells gives you in those systems later editions of DnD were absolutely not designed with the idea of players making thier own shit in mind.but more importantly, I think there is some big miscommunication on what exactly a specific spell list is or you haven't played ars magica/mage because those do NOT have specific spell lists. They have general spell effects from which you can craft specific spells, with ars magica having more concrete spell crafting guidelines(but still vague and supports spontaneous casting) and mage being rather exactly "vague generalist skill covering a broad school of magic" There are spell lists in both mage and ars books but they exist as examples to give a better idea of the powerlevel "control forces" or "Kill a person" should have. The rest of the time, more so in mage because you do spontanious casting less in ars magica, you genuinely just have a skill like forces that lets you "Perceive, Control, Transmute minor/major forces" and you argue based on those guidelines and your paradigm as a mage for what those effects should do. Earlier you said that was "super powers" but now you're trying to say its a dnd style spell list somehow?
>>98123435I wouldn't. My game doesn't have arbitrary restrictions on who can select any particular option, and there are noj dominant strategies.
>>98123756Nou you don't.
>>98123815damn I feel sorry for you
>>98124011Indeed, other types of games are better than the ones you play.
>>98124011No, that's why it's not varied. Nineteen different spells that all perform the function of deal elemental damage to one or more targets is not variety. It is the opposite of it. In that same page space, you could have printed actually different effects that do different things. Well, you could have, if you were using an effects based system like someone who lives in the 21st century instead of a component based system like a knuckle dragging drooling retard.
>>98124946Ironic.
>>98125231Alternatively, if there weren't spell levels (LOL), and every power did something different, and it wasn't possible to simply have every good power, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
>>98125285what real definition, retard? jesus you sound like a three year old. nuh uh it's not REAL magic unless it works in this completely made up arbitrary way that never would have even occurred to me if I hadn't read it in a rulebook somebody else wrote! You're playing wrong!
I mean, I fixed this issue in two ways.First I created my own overcast system where even if you are out of spell slots you can still cast spells at any level you want, but at the risk of unleashing wild magic all over the place and destroying your own body.Secondly I allow my players to use their spells in any way they wish, as I see the written rules as scaffolding for players to build upon.For example, Grasping Vines, rules as written, is just "The ground is difficult terrain", but one of my players decided to instead use the vines to pull on a statue that could block the entrance of a couple of enemies.If I'm being completely honest here, DnD to me is like the skyrim of TTRPGs, a nice foundation to build upon but incredibly stale and boring regardless.
>spell slotsYeah, you didn't fix it.
>>98123945Literally anything but Vancian is an improvement, so I'd just say take your pick or mix and match. Personally, I'd vote Mana points + Skill checks
No resources unless the player applies a relevant con to a particular power, like charges, recharge, burnout, costly, harmful, or overload.
>>98124339While that is true, I'm specifically referring to the Wizard who does nothing with their spell slots beyond slotting spells and casting them. You'd think the premier magic caster class would have more options to do unique shit with magic.In my opinion, the Warlock and the Sorcerer are the bits that should be on Wizard.>>98125285The problem with the variety is that there are 20+ spells that basically all do the same thing except you change the damage type it does.It's funny considering 5.5 was suppose to "simplify" the game when you could have a few spells that give you options for how to use them rather than 80 different spells to do that one specific thing.
>>98125971Wow, what an incredible argument. Truly you are a master of rhetoric.
>>98126710>You'd think the premier magic caster class would have more options to do unique shit with magic.I'd expect the most generic caster to have the most generic features desu
>>98126902Yeah. Dumbfuck.
>>98126916The generic caster should have the most options just like the generic martial. 3.5 at least did that right by giving Fighter access to even monk's feats even though it's only class feature is just stacking feats (and it taking 4 or more to do anything cool or at least partly useful).
>featsholy LOL
>>98124106>Witches for Thulsa Doom?"There was a time, boy, when I searched for steel, when steel meant more to me than gold or jewels.""Steel isn’t strong, boy, flesh is stronger!"
>>98123435the way to fix D&D is to buff color spray into what Vance imagined it I need any warrior who gets a 100m within the range of a wizard to get blown the fuck up.
>>98125157That reminds me that one of these days I am going to get around to building a armor system that the more protective the armor is the less gear slots it has, while a outfit like specially rigged robes or coats have tons of slots but offer no armor protection. Would give a reason why a spell casting specialist wouldn't wear armor in such a system. Haven't gotten around to it because it would be weird to change now when my players are already used to how armor works as it is, and haven't even questioned why wizards still don't wear armor. At least they haven't commented to me about it.
>>98124054I don't mean a point buy system, I mean you want adaptable, "I just do the thing" magic, with no skill roll or resource consumed. That's super powers. >>98126003The nature of spells in the game requiring a different spell for every desired effect, thus creating maximum variation, is not how you get variety? Lol, ok.
>>98128380Yeah, it isn't how you get variety, as I explained. Pretending to be incredulous is not an argument, so you agree with me.
>>98128380>I mean you want adaptable, "I just do the thing" magic, with no skill roll or resource consumed.Literally what suggested that was what I was asking for? I'm the guy who said the Savage Worlds powers system was his favorite, which requires both skill rolls and spending resources(power points) also I've only read a few super systems but as far as I'm aware they still make you roll skill checks to use powers that aren't passive... because why the fuck wouldn't they? Are you just trolling or something?also also, to your point with the other anon if you aren't trolling, since you got so uppity at me earlier how about YOU actually explain what makes your favorite vancian spell list so varied. Don't just say "Uhhh because it HAS to be" actually describe why you think that list of specific spells covers a wide variety of effects.
>>98123435I've seen it done well a few ways, but I really liked HEART's take where you take on an amount of stress to your mind, body, or soul-- sometimes literally expending your luck-- to make spells go off, so pushing yourself hard enough can injure and even permanently cripple a character.
Tit magic. Magic is stored in the tits and the bigger your tits are, the more spells you can cast. OP pic is one of the archmages.
>>98126010What game are you talking about? Even as permissive as 5e is, I thought 5e still wizards didn't get to cast every spell but had a limited list of spells in their book.Courtesy of TSR, here's what a spell book used to look like for a competent magic-user at 3rd level.Level 1Burning hands, Charm person, Comprehend languages, Detect magic, Hold portal, Magic missile, Push, Read magic, Sleep, Tenser's floating discLevel 2Audible glamer, Darkness 15' radius, Detect invisibility, ESP, Invisibility, Mirror image, WebBy 6th level his spell book had grown huge. Look at it. Two extra at level 2, access gained to level 3Level 2Knock, Wizard lockLevel 3Phantasmal force, Tongues, Lightning boltThat's a lot of good spells but it's a still long way from having every good power.Popular at level 1:Feather fallShieldShocking graspSpider climbUnseen servantPopular at level 2:Continual lightLevitateRay of enfeeblementKnock and Wizard lock are on the list as the later ones added as the magic-user levelled up but you don't know how long he was adventuring to find those.Popular at level 3:Dispel magicFireballFlame arrowHasteHold personSlowWater breathingI could throw in more like Leomund's tiny hut and Protection from normal missiles and Suggestion and Monster Summon I and Fly.>if it wasn't possible to simply have every good power, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.Not even D&D 4th edition allowed magic-users and wizards to have every good power, and no sensible DM would allow it, so it isn't an issue in the first place.
>>98123435Symbaroum has a great magic system
>>98123435Too many dnd spells are broken but you could use spell level as the cooldown of the spell in turns. No more spell slots but now you can't spam 1 spell and have to manage your timing and other magic users will know when you're on CD, more bookkeeping or use dice as a countdown.
>>98128465It literally is, and you're retarded. Did you mean to say you want a WoD Mage style dynamic magic system? Is that it?>>98128536>Don't just say "Uhhh because it HAS to be" It does have to be, because spells have strictly defined effects. So, if you want different effects, you need different spells. That means...more spells. The literal definition of variety.
>>98130353Consider in your infinite wisdom, that perhaps, the effects you want are in fact NOT available spells on that strictly defined list and the rules for you the player to create those new different spells are in fact not intended or widely accepted for regular use.Do you understand now?
>>98128617There are only a couple of spells worth taking at any spell level. The niche situational casts come from wands and scrolls. This is, of course, assuming we're playing a trash game like dnd.
>>98130353No, it literally isn't, as I explained.If you have space for three spells, thenFire boltCold boltAcid boltis objectively less variety thanBlastConstructsAnimation.
>>98123435>Vancian magic sucks.Agree.> dnd?Stop playing DnD shit!> what other magic systems would you replace it withLiterally anything else.How about literally being able to cast spells? Real world>If you swing your sword you get tiered and need to rest after some hits>(go chop some wood you nerds)DnD>You simply can swing your sword at goblins infinitely not requiring any resource whatsoever.>However umm magic is like limited and stuff. >Only limited number of spellsLiterally let the mag cast whatever he wants in his turn or give a casting mechanic when the spell activates only on the 2 or 3 turn.Boom finished!
>>98128617In 5e, only spells with a cost that specify consumption of components consume those components. Otherwise, a Spellcasting Focus or Component Pouch allows for casting without expending any resource other than Spell Slots. As of the 2024 rules, Wizards not only have a maximum of 25 prepared spells at Level 20, but they start having 6 1st-Level Wizard Spells in their book, gaining 2 more every time they gain a Wizard Level for a maximum of 44 known spells at Level 20... through leveling up. They can scribe new spells into the book, RAW, there is no limit to how many spells you can keep in the book, though it does state it has 100 pages (it is unspecified how many pages a spell takes up). They also have access to Cantrips (level 0 Spells) they can cast as much as they want that upgrade at higher levels (doing an additional die of damage at levels 5, 11, and 17 (max 4dx).A Level 3 2024 Wizard will have access to at MINIMUM:>8 1st-Level Spells, 4 slots>2 2nd-level spells, 2 slots>3 Cantrips>6 Prepared Spells>They can cast any Spell that is tagged with Ritual that's in their book without having it prepared (this increases the casting time of the spell, but doesn't cost a slot)By Level 5, they have 3rd-level spells. Their Prepared list will likely look something like this, though it might change based on Subclass, assuming only 2024/5.5 content is allowed:>CantripsFire BoltMind SliverToll the DeadFriends>1st-Level SpellsMage ArmorMagic MissleShieldSleepWardaway>2nd-Level SpellsHold PersonInvisbility>3rd-Level SpellsFireballHypnotic PatternAlso, they get a 5th-level feature that lets them swap one of these spells for another they know in their book on a Short Rest. Mind, I'm not a caster player - I prefer martials - so I'm sure someone more familiar with wizard can chime in and improve this list and make something utterly bullshit.
>>98123440>>98123875>There's not a single magical tradition throughout history that functions on storing spells in your brain until you use them and erase them, needing to memorize them again the next morning.All of this.DnD fagots are retarded. DnD is a shit game from the 70s where the schizo Gygax wrote lots of words and over 40% of it is made up bullshit and childish retardation.I mean in the 70s it was impressive to have vampires and centaurs and skeletons and zombies and all of that t kids in the 70s must have gotten their mind blown so they did not question the goofy shit in the book that clearly was made when Gygax was running out of ideas. Or because Gygax was a fan of a old book series that has a retarded magic system in it!
>>98123494>So when can a Fighter swinging a sword have the same effect as any spell?>WA WA WA Why is me picking a balloon as a weapon worse in every way then the other guy with a gun? WA WA WAThis is you right now. Some choices are better then others. Deal with it.
>>98131151If you can cast Wish as many times a day as you want and it's "only fair" then I think swinging a sword should be able to be just as magical. It's "only fair."
>>98131151>This is you right now. Some choices are better then others. Deal with it.That's objectively dogshit game design. If one option is objectively better than the others, there are no options.
>>98125889pathfinder is not varied. pathfinder is BLOATED to hell and back. that said>you haven't played ars magica/mage because those do NOT have specific spell lists.dude is OK to admit you're in the wrong. the conversation can just continue from there, not doubling down on the same incorrect thing you already said. ars magica and other magic focused RPGs have both a specific spell list like DnD and a flexible framework to make your own spells. these are not mutually exclusive and never were.
>>98123479>>98123536
>>98131131That's pretty unfair. Their retarded parents' minds were also blown by the vampires and centaurs and skeletons and zombies and all of that too, which is why they burned the books
>>98132009I think either I'm confused about what you're trying to argue or you're confused about what I'm complaining about. Yes, I mentioned the spell lists for ars magica and mage in my post. When I said they did not have a "specific spell list" what I meant was that the small list of spells in those books exists to give examples of what the writers meant when they were creating the guidelines for spell effects, its not supposed to serve as an exhaustive list of the spells available to you in the game. My problem with the specific spell lists for most vancian magic systems is that they ARE generally an exhaustive list of effects available to the players, and while there certainly are rules to create your own spells and those probably were more common back in the day they have generally fallen out of favor of most playgroups as far as I understand and were eventually designed in more prohibitive ways.Obviously it's not an issue that the game has specific spells as examples of its spell creation system or the general effects of it spellcasting skills, and I would agree that while spontaneous casting is good it is better when players have a codified list of spells they know with spontaneous casting being a limited but flexible tool rather than the default casting method, but I would not say that the spell lists that exist in mage or ars or even something like the savage worlds powers list are a "specific spell list" like the vancian spell lists of D&D/pathfinder or similar games.
>>98131013Thanks for the details. I've largely avoided 5e and that's worse than I thought.>100 pages (it is unspecified how many pages a spell takes up)You have got to be kidding me.
>>98123435mana points are right therealso 4th edition
>>98132191>small list of spellsthe spell list in ars magica is not small at all. is more than a hundred spell long list.dnd is creatively bankrupt. its spell list is not going to get bigger or better because that would require work from the corporate plants and they won't do that. most of the spells there, including the iconic ones everyone loves was not created by them, but by the original team back in the TSR days.
>>98131601The absolute state of DnD shiters!>That's objectively dogshit game design. If one option is objectively better than the others, there are no options.>I quip the legendary iron sword>>OK I quip a stick! 1 V 1 me bro!>>WA WA WA Why did I lose! That's objectively dogshit game design.Literally you.>there are no options.Sam as using a stick VS a sword as a weapon right?>there are no options.Please use the stick VS sword example to debate yourself.There are many reasons one of them is that the mage did not learn this spell if you are talking about magic VS swords the answer is the same as in reality swords got deprecated to guns. A world with magic will look fundamentally different to DnD shit and mages will dominate.To not make it to far out you can try to fix this>Mages are secretive and hoard their arcane knowledge not giving it away to the plebs.BOOM fixed! You can not have a LOTR setting where a mage party member is extremely rare while everyone else swings a sword and like in LOTR the sword guys are total trash BTW. PS: I am talking classic fantasy not harry potter hiding from the muggles. So like ~50% of the mundane know that wizards and magic exists however have no idea where to find one or how to learn magic. Like in the actual middle ages(with guilds and crafts) how they do their thing is a closely guarded secret. Best example rumpelstiltskin(his """magic""" is more like a craft)>Um Mr Magical creature how exactly do you turn straw into gold?>>I learned it at the collage of GO FUCK YOURSELF in the town of EAT A DICK! I mean if you discovered magic in the middle ages you are not going to give it away for free especially the turn to gold free money tricks, you hide it hoard it and use it for your benefit. Others can rediscover the same thing with time however they also will hide it.Read some classic fantasy(fairy tales) retards!
>>98132065>That's pretty unfair.MEMING aside the DnD panic was what made DnD popular since that was the le evil forbidden game.The point is that DnD did have a long list of mythological creatures (centaurs, ogres, golems) and made up ones for the game (Beholders) you must remember in the 60s and before there was nothing like this. You did not have this DnD inspired collection of creatures in every fiction or video game like you have today.
>>98131151Yeah. Why did you present balloon fighter as if it is a viable option for players in the rulebook, if it isn't actually a viable option?
>>98133165A guy with a stick and 9 ranks in Strike is equally as competent as a guy with a sword and 9 ranks in Strike. Sorry your game sucks, hopei things get better for you.
>>98130353Failed to respond, you lose the argument.
>>98133940>in the rulebook????>if it isn't actually a viable option??????Dude we are talking about real life here! There is no rulebook for real life. If RPGs are to be based on real life then here are the things that happen in real life. If you bitch that these options lead nowhere and are inferior in game why don't you bitch at reality itself for the same reasons?>>98133945This is not something that can happen in reality.
>>98134048No, we're talking about games, retard.
>>98134048Which real life thing is Plane Shift based on, retard? How about Gate?
