>>98123459
this kind anon
>>98084750
has provided the first part of the essence stg draft
here's the link for when the thread expires
https://www.mediafire.com/file/5tq29yoeeskvv5v/ExEss+STG+Draft+Part+1.pdf/file

Which warstriders do you prefer?
>1e and 2e's 7m tall, relatively common warstriders that get deployed in fangs by the realm and lookshy
>3e and Demake's 15m tall super-rare gundams (with moonlight butterfly and all in some cases) that almost never get deployed because even the realm has so few

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>Relza appears as an attractive woman covered all over with shining metallic blue feathers, with two great wings on her back. She has dexterous six-fingered hands, with sharp retractile claws that can tear and rend her foes.

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>>98123472
Fights are few and far between but I find that they only last three or so turns. Larger, more dramatic fights seem really rare for some reason.

>>98123472
Was the second one uploaded anywhere? I'm pretty sure it wasn't despite there being a second PDF released.

>>98123515
Ex3's version gives them more gravitas, even though you can't really use them for anything except killing armies or kaiju.

>>98123459
sorry i'm late, i was banned for being right again
Weekly Update
>Art Direction
Champions of the Divine Flame – Gonna send it to DAC
Essence PG – Awaiting sketch updates and finals
Essence STG (BK) – Went live last
Thursday
>Proofing
Alchemicals – First interior proof… waiting on dev notes
a fair bit of art from alchemicals came out with this weekly, but it's all navella studios for some reason. guess they reliably make decent art for cheap
the essence st guide campaign is running. seems there's a link in the op if you want it
there's also a link to the first of the draft manuscripts above
next week's update will be monthly and weekly due to timing

Any mention of the Darkbroods in Ex3?

>>98123687
Not that I remember. I don't think they've been explicitly retconned out, either, though.

>>98123459
>MEMORIES BROKEN
>THE TRUTH GOES UNSPOKEN

>>98124229
>I'VE EVEN FORGOTTEN MY NAAAAAA-A-A-A-AME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnG_skW3Ibw&list=RDNnG_skW3Ibw&start_radio=1

>>98123534
Ok dude I'll read your stupid isekai fanfic

>>98123515
>1e and 2e's 7m tall, relatively common warstriders that get deployed in fangs by the realm and lookshy
This one. It fits the setting better and plays better in games. 3e's Warstriders are basically useless trashpiles that only have meaning if you read some of their rules or non-rules in exploitative ways. The only doylist reason for the change is to make having one more of a power fantasy, which it fails at. 1e/2e they have some semblence of a realistic role in the setting to fill, they actually get to be cool while doing the kind of stuff they're meant for, and they make the whole world cooler by existing as a static variable of the setting instead of a series of unpredictable one-offs with no greater meaning.

Warstrider vs Warstrider, or Warstrider vs Variety, are infinitely cooler than Warstriders stomping on 'helpless fools' fifty times in a row (especially when the 'helpless fools' have one fighter and it turns out the warstrider is worse than fighting on foot among parity fighters)

I've been trying to read Qwixalted Extended because it seemed like a good way of introducing newbies to the game. But maybe because I'm ESL or because I'm retarded but I can't for the love of god wrap my head around the fucking Ways.
Anyone with experience with the system that could help enlighten me as to what the fuck is up with that system? Because making up charms on the fly sounds fun but I'd need to explain it to my players...

>>98121985
it's from finnish "terveisin" or "regards", used as the ending before your name in letters.

>>98123534
Lyta would make for a perfect "I can fix her" waifu...

>>98125831
The Lunars in my circle would want to make her worse.

>>98122321 Sheppard didn't work on GoD.
There was 1e stuff he worked on uncredited or provided assistance. So he had some inside knowledge. But how much, yeah is not exactly known.

>Not that gods on GoD are particularly evil, anyways
I mean if megacorporate heads that abuse stock markets, employees, and the world to satisfy their endless quest for self-glorification are not evil, sure.
I do not understand why this is the hill so many Exalted fans will die on. I'm not debating on if making them all evil was a good decision (it isn't), or the reasons for why it was done the way it was done.
It's developer stated intention that the Exalted gods be akin to the worst gods of Pagana and Tales of Flat Earth, where they are so evil that the devil (who's still a sick fuck who likes to torment people for kicks) cares more about the well being of others.

There are a few gods (like 3-4) that are either not detailed in being overtly cruel (just doing nothing or lacking much detail), but as a category their evil fucks.
Why do they insist that their "just like people" when the "people" their just like are the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies or military dictators?
Is it to insist in their heads that Exalted draws more from Wuxia then it does from Sword and Sorcery?

>>98125901
>I do not understand why this is the hill so many Exalted fans will die on.
Because a lot of people disagree with you on that. Not out of principle, just because they, or we, genuinely just think that your assessment of the morality of gods in Exalted is mistaken. That's all.

How long would it take a size 2 BG of blood apes / elementals to raze a town? Meaning targeting the buildings and 'stuff' rather than killing the people. Assume no exalts opposing or supporting, but mortal defenses are allowed?

>>98123459
.....this art is NOT good. damn, what happened?
please bring back the weebs...

>>98126083
No money to pay artists, so they get art from 12 year olds using ai who do it for free

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>>98123459
>>98126083
What is this expression supposed to convey?

>>98126111
Mild annoyance at being drawn by shit artist

>>98126111
The character’s expression looks like a mix of amusement, confidence, and slight exhaustion or exasperation. The half-lidded eyes and faint smile/smirking mouth give off a “I know something you don’t” or teasing vibe, while the tilted head and relaxed face make it feel emotionally softer rather than aggressive.

Overall, it conveys something along the lines of:
smug satisfaction,
playful teasing,
flirtation,
or a weary “really?” reaction.

>>98126083
The good Seasians artists moved on to do furry porn

>>98125955
>Not out of principle, just because they, or we, genuinely just think that your assessment of the morality of gods in Exalted is mistaken. That's all.

On what basis is what I genuinely do not comprehend. What other heinous crimes they have to commit before there is any sort of appraisal of them as bad? Do they have to have pedophilic child slaves ala Deathlords (or Dynasts)? Or is that also not evil? Is Exalted such a fucked up setting that by virtue of it being grotesquely fucked up that what is considered evil IRL should not be applied in Exalted, Ala the Imperium in 40k?
Is it just a rejection of the concept of evil? That there is just no behavior bad enough to be categorized as evil?
Id at least get that. That the rejection of the concept of evil as a whole, excepts the gods of Exalted.

Otherwise I genuinely do not get it.

>>98125901
>worst gods of Pagana
The worst gods from pegana are the mortal who became a god, and accidentally invented greed after he sent love and gold to the common man; and the god that is pretty much the embodiment of corporate greed and employee abuse.
Flat earth gods make Melfeas' "rape to death" seems tame by comparison, to the point the living satanic embodiment of wickedness is disgusted by them.

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We were ROBBED

>>98126158
That's why I said worst god, and I did bring up Flat Earth.
>where they are so evil that the devil (who's still a sick fuck who likes to torment people for kicks) cares more about the well being of others.

I'm confused that people can see that as being the source material and inspiration and be like "No no, their not evil".

>>98126132
Thank you for your high Clarity analysis, Champion.

>>98126169
The worst god of pegana is pretty much Regan, the gods of Tanith Lee are completely immoral.
In comparison, exalted are a bunch of neets, they lack the monstrosity of the other two, they didn't create a system of abuse so awful that other amoral gods had to intervene.

>>98126140
>Otherwise I genuinely do not get it.
>Usury

>The men of Zonu hold that Yahn is God, who sits as a usurer behind a heap of little lustrous gems and ever clutches at them with both his arms. Scarce larger than a drop of water are the gleaming jewels that lie under the grasping talons of Yahn, and every jewel is a life. Men tell in Zonu that the earth was empty when Yahn devised his plan, and on it no life stirred. Then Yahn lured to him shadows whose home was beyond the Rim, who knew little of joys and nought of any sorrow, whose place was beyond the Rim before the birth of Time. These Yahn lured to him and showed them his heap of gems; and in the jewels there was light, and green fields glistened in them, and there were glimpses of blue sky and little streams, and very faintly little gardens showed that flowered in orchard lands. And some showed winds in the heaven, and some showed the arch of the sky with a waste plain drawn across it, with grasses bent in the wind and never aught but the plain. But the gems that changed the most had in their centre the ever changing sea. Then the shadows gazed into the Lives and saw the green fields and the sea and earth and the gardens of earth. And Yahn said: "I will loan you each a Life, and you may do your work with it upon the Scheme of Things, and have each a shadow for his servant in green fields and in gardens, only for these things you shall polish these Lives with experience and cut their edges with your griefs, and in the end shall return them again to me."

1/?

>>98126140
A lot of the gods just aren't that bad. Looking at GoD, since that's what we were talking about:

Ahlat's not actually that bad here, just a pretty standard distant warrior-god. Ahlat the scheming opportunist presented in Houses of the Bullgod is a lot worse, though even then calling his selfish ambition outright evil is really diluting the meaning and impact of the word "evil".

Siakal is Siakal, and I doubt anyone's going to question her being evil.

Madame Marthesine of the Lost...eh, if she was actually working to make sure that more things get lost so as to increase her hoard of lost things, then sure, she'd be evil. Just refusing to give up what she's gotten hold of without a trade, though...self-serving, sure, but again, calling her evil would really dilute the meaning of the word.

Plentimon's moral status depends on how you view gambling in general, I guess. He's easily offended and vengeful, but also honest in his games and dealings.

Shalrina provides a service for people who want it. Where's the evil?

Vanileth's a plane autist who doesn't really bother anyone. Hardly evil, or even particularly morally questionable.

I guess Burning Weather's pure evil if you're a big prohibition fan.

Caltia, Jorst and Arilak...eh, I guess you could make a solid case there, considering Caltia's habits, her and Jorst's influence of Halta and the Linowan and all that. Not an airtight case, but a case nonetheless.

Grala...well, hunting humans is pretty bad from a human perspective, and I'm a human, so I won't bother arguing that.

The Mammoth Avatar is doing exactly what to offend your moral sensibilities so?

That's it for the named, unique gods in GoD. I'd be curious to hear whatever case you have for the evils of the lesser spirits in that book, too, because for most of them I just don't see it.

>>98126204
2/?

>And thereto the shadows consented, that they might have gleaming Lives and have shadows for their servants, and this thing became the Law. But the shadows, each with his Life, departed and came to Zonu and to other lands, and there with experience they polished the Lives of Yahn, and cut them with human griefs until they gleamed anew. And ever they found new scenes to gleam within these Lives, and cities and sails and men shone in them where there had been before only green fields and sea, and ever Yahn the usurer cried out to remind them of their bargain. When men added to their Lives scenes that were pleasant to Yahn, then was Yahn silent, but when they added scenes that pleased not the eyes of Yahn, then did he take a toll of sorrow from them because it was the Law.

>But men forgot the usurer, and there arose some claiming to be wise in the Law, who said that after their labour, which they wrought upon their Lives, was done, those Lives should be theirs to possess; so men took comfort from their toil and labour and the grinding and cutting of their griefs. But as their Lives began to shine with experience of many things, the thumb and forefinger of Yahn would suddenly close upon a Life, and the man became a shadow. But away beyond the Rim the shadows say:

>>98126209
3/?

>"We have greatly laboured for Yahn, and have gathered griefs in the world, and caused his Lives to shine, and Yahn doeth nought for us. Far better had we stayed where no cares are, floating beyond the Rim."

>And there the shadows fear lest ever again they be lured by specious promises to suffer usury at the hands of Yahn, who is overskilled in Law. Only Yahn sits and smiles, watching his hoard increase in preciousness, and hath no pity for the poor shadows whom he hath lured from their quiet to toil in the form of men.

>And ever Yahn lures more shadows and sends them to brighten his Lives, sending the old Lives out again to make them brighter still; and sometimes he gives to a shadow a Life that was once a king's and sendeth him with it down to the earth to play the part of a beggar, or sometimes he sendeth a beggar's Life to play the part of a king. What careth Yahn?

>>98126169
>I'm confused that people can see that as being the source material and inspiration and be like "No no, their not evil".
*A* source material. Not *the* source material. Also some people just actually read how gods are described in Exalted instead of trying to deduce what they might be like based on (cherrypicked parts that support your position of) the source material.

>>98126215
4/4

>The men of Zonu have been promised by those that claim to be wise in the Law that their Lives which they have toiled at shall be theirs to possess for ever, yet the men of Zonu fear that Yahn is greater and overskilled in the Law. Moreover it hath been said that Time will bring the hour when the wealth of Yahn shall be such as his dreams have lusted for. Then shall Yahn leave the earth at rest and trouble the shadows no more, but sit and gloat with his unseemly face over his hoard of Lives, for his soul is a usurer's soul. But others say, and they swear that this is true, that there are gods of Old, who be far greater than Yahn, who made the Law wherein Yahn is overskilled, and who will one day drive a bargain with him that shall be too hard for Yahn. Then Yahn shall wander away, a mean forgotten god, and perchance in some forsaken land shall haggle with the rain for a drop of water to drink, for his soul is a usurer's soul. And the Lives—who knoweth the gods of Old or what Their will shall be?

>>98126205
>Ahlat's not actually that bad here
>impact of the word "evil".
OK lets start there. Id consider fermenting famine in order to cause civil war to just perpetually empower yourself to be...Well pretty evil.

If that's not evil enough to be considered not-evil then fair enough. Your standard for evil is MUCH higher then mine.

>>98126218
>*A* source material. Not *the* source material.

Well once you mix piss into cake batter, the whole cake sorta loses it's luster regardless of how much sugar is used. Exalted uses other source material for inspiration largely to deconstruct it.

>>98126235
>OK lets start there. Id consider fermenting famine in order to cause civil war to just perpetually empower yourself to be...Well pretty evil.
I guess that "looking at GoD" was somehow too complex a phrase for you to understand. I guess that means that there's not much of a point in continuing this discussion. I also see that you ignored literally every other god. Go ahead and tell me more about the vile deeds of Shalrina, Vanileth and Burning Feather.

>>98126235
Basic example is that it uses Chinese myth, but without any celestial legitimacy, then it becomes a farce.

It uses Buddhism as inspiration, but only to replace Catholicism as the standard lie religion of the evil empire.

>>98126246
>I guess that "looking at GoD" was somehow too complex a phrase for you to understand.
I mean I stopped at that because if we have different definitions of evil, then debating the morality of every god is pointless.
Id consider what Ahlat does outstandingly evil. You do not. Its like debating a movie when we speak different languages.

Its fine if you don't consider Ahlat evil. I don't judge you wrong or worse or anything. Its just a fantasy story.

>>98126249
Celestial Bureaucracy is as legitimate as any other government. It's still a farce, but in the sense that it doesn't currently work, not in the sense that it's inherently, conceptually farcical.

>>98125901
>Why do they insist that their "just like people" when the "people" their just like are the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies or military dictators?
If we go by the IRL equivalent, the big gods of Exalted, the incarna, are nepobabies neets.
The "CEOs of Fortune 500 companies or military dictators?" Are closer to the deathlords.

>Is it to insist in their heads that Exalted draws more from Wuxia then it does from Sword and Sorcery?
Conan had benevolent God, even his patron despite being a dick, acted more like a distant stem father.

>>98126255
Just make your argument using your own standards for evil. And also think on that "looking at GoD" oart for a moment and consider what Ahlat's writeup there actually says. The famine thing, for instance, isn't in that book.

>>98126265
>If we go by the IRL equivalent, the big gods of Exalted, the incarna, are nepobabies neets.
Including ones that actively meddle in the world to make it worse to enrich themselves the the God of Ruin? Ahlat? Saika?

>>98126262
>Celestial Bureaucracy is as legitimate as any other government.
Right, but thats not a sincere take on Chinese Mythology.

>>98126265
>Conan had benevolent God, even his patron despite being a dick, acted more like a distant stem father.
Oh I know. Exalted isn't a sincere take on 99% of everything it's inspired by.
Black Company is about how a evil group of mercenaries (historically) changed over time and ended up saving the world from evil sorcerers and gods despite being mere mortals. But all Exalted took from it is miseryporn and rape.

Conan is actually a pretty upstanding guy. But again, all Exalted took from it for their 1e Lunar inspiration is miseryporn and rape.

>>98126269
>Just make your argument using your own standards for evil.
Il double check the book again (its probably my most hated and not currently in front of me), but answer the the question. For instance the gods treating all the Elementals as second-class slaves is a example of their basic hypocricity.

>>98126249
Despite agreeing about the use of Buddhism, I believe that a lot of deconstructions were just them not understanding the source material and being poor writers.

>>98126291
>Including ones that actively meddle in the world to make it worse to enrich themselves the the God of Ruin? Ahlat? Saika?
Nobody really cares for the lesser gods, not even exigents and their players/writers do, when people talk about the morality of the gods, the overwhelming majority of time, it is about the incarna.

>>98126291
>Including ones that actively meddle in the world to make it worse to enrich themselves the the God of Ruin? Ahlat? Saika?
What about the ones who meddle in way that benefit the world? Whitewall's certainly better off with the involvement of the Syndics than it would be without them.

>Right, but thats not a sincere take on Chinese Mythology.
Should it be?

>For instance the gods treating all the Elementals as second-class slaves is a example of their basic hypocricity.
If hypocrisy's enough to qualify as evil, then I guess you must be one hell of a misanthrope. But sure, gods are as evil as people living in societies that practice slavery or just have second class citizens in general are. They're as evil as a person who knows of the existence of sweatshops but doesn't really think much about them, I guess. Well, maybe not as evil, because elementals aren't quite as bad off as that.

>>98126307
>yers/writers do, when people talk about the morality of the gods, the overwhelming majority of time, it is about the incarna.
The Incarnae are just as bad or worse. They actively further the cruelty towards the Elementals and don't give a shit about guiding their Champions. I can list their crimes if you want.

>>98126297
>I believe that a lot of deconstructions were just them not understanding the source material and being poor writers.
How much was defined by just being shit writers, being contrarians, or being fedora tippers varied by writer. But I largely don't care why, Im talking about the end result.

>>98126307
Not really.

>>98126323
>and don't give a shit about guiding their Champions.
Should they, and why? Gods were slaves, they rebelled to be free, now they want to enjoy their freedom. Exalts helped them rebel and were very richly rewarded for their aid, with mastery of Creation. There's a lot of morally questionable shit that gods in Exalted, including the Incarnae, do, but having a blast in Heaven after eons of toil and letting Exalts do what they will with their spoils isn't inherently wrong.

>>98126291
>Black Company is about how a evil group of mercenaries (historically) changed over time and ended up saving the world from evil sorcerers and gods despite being mere mortals. But all Exalted took from it is miseryporn and rape.
Considering certain 1e material, the relationship between player characters and the deathlords was meant to be like the black company and the taken.
But the Deathlords are too morally disgusting, for it to work.
The Heron is the Lady analog.

>Conan is actually a pretty upstanding guy. But again, all Exalted took from it for their 1e Lunar inspiration is miseryporn and rape.
Lunars aren't inspired by Conan and Howard's mcs, you can say that Lunar's are inspired by their enemies, but Howardian heroes they are not.

>>98126320
>Should it be?
Doesn't have to be. Im just saying its a nihilistic deconstruction despite peoples insistence it isn't one. Your free to enjoy it as one.
>They're as evil as a person who knows of the existence of sweatshops but doesn't really think much about them, I guess.
Jesus this fucking hill.
In order to defend the Gods slavery (and active enforcement of slavery) you equivocate with not doing enough to stop slavery.

And for Exalted of all things.

>>98126340
>Gods were slaves, they rebelled to be free, now they want to enjoy their freedom.
Because the world will end and the job needs to be done regardless?
If escapee slaves get new slaves to replace the work they had to do, that doesn't morally absolve them. There is no evidence shown they really toiled before anyway. Without reference, and with the character of the gods, it could be that the Primodrials only gave them 6 days off per week instead of 6.5.

>>98126320
>Whitewall's certainly better off with the involvement of the Syndics than it would be without them.
Sure, there are a numbered amount of exceptions that generally do something useful. Like 3-5 over all of Exalted 1es publishing history.

>>98126383
>Because the world will end and the job needs to be done regardless?
>If escapee slaves get new slaves to replace the work they had to do, that doesn't morally absolve them
Turns out exalted is about Haiti's war for independence.

>>98126323
>shit writers, being contrarians, or being fedora tippers varied by writer
These overlap a lot, as seen in 1e lunars.
See how to this day they are trying to make Queen Nakari analog (A.K.A. Raksi) into a paragon who you looks up for.

>>98126349
>Im just saying its a nihilistic deconstruction despite peoples insistence it isn't one.
It's not really nihilistic to not accept the idea of divine legitimacy or divine command theory and stuff like that.

>In order to defend the Gods slavery (and active enforcement of slavery) you equivocate with not doing enough to stop slavery.
Now full stop here. First, sure, I do equivocate being a citizen in a society with firmly established systems of exploitation benefiting from said systems with...being a citizen in a society with firmly established systems of exploitation benefiting from said systems with. More importantly, though, elementals are looked down on by other spirits, but they're hardly slaves. In Creation, they got their own courts, some of which are quite powerful, and in Yu-shan they're definitely second class citizens - except for lesser elemental dragons, of course - but they're not really slaves. They're certainly better off than actual slaves in, say, actual real life ancient Greek or Rome (or a whole lot of premodern and even modern cultures, of course). Would you consider the entire ancient Greco-Roman civilization to be more evil than gods in Exalted due to a greater involvement in harsher and more widespread kind of slavery?

>>98126383
>Sure, there are a numbered amount of exceptions that generally do something useful. Like 3-5 over all of Exalted 1es publishing history.
And there's a numbered around exceptions that are unambiguously destructive or corruptive influences, and then there's the majority that's somewhere in between.

>>98126394
>Turns out exalted is about Haiti's war for independence.
Its about "Muh cycle of usurpation and degradation"

Which I mean is fine. I got no beef with the people that say Exalted is about things sucking and they like it that way. Or even that it wasn't intended to be that way but was catastrophically terribly executed.

I have beef with the people that will take blatant overwhelming evidence, as well as developer statements and just reject it and start insulting people instead.

>>98126344
>But the Deathlords are too morally disgusting, for it to work.
I mean it worked only for a very short time in BC as well and largely for the same reason.
>The Heron is the Lady analog.
If thats the case they failed terribly. I found the Lady to be vile and Croaker a simp, but she had some redeemable features.

>Lunars aren't inspired by Conan and Howard's mcs, you can say that Lunar's are inspired by their enemies, but Howardian heroes they are not.
Fair enough. But again speaks to Exalted not really being about being heroes of just about any sort.

>>98126451
>Fair enough. But again speaks to Exalted not really being about being heroes of just about any sort.
You can see Howardian heroes in caste book Dawn; Demetheus and Yurgen, before the latter became a plot device.

Demetheus is the Conan, to CB:D!Yurgen's Kull.

>>98126414
>It's not really nihilistic to not accept the idea of divine legitimacy or divine command theory and stuff like that.
I don't accept Monarchy, but I can happily accept the principle in a fantasy world. Exalted focuses primarily on shitting on the concepts is what I'm saying, and the end result is a setting that focuses mostly on everything being shit and then not giving you much tools (besides handwaving and ST fiat) to make it better.

Its nihilistic in that it denies meaning. Not just divine meaning, but any achieved meaning. And posits that nothing of much substance can or will be achieved. Despite all the horrors of the Primordial war, welcome the new boss same as the old boss. And you will be the same, or by Grabowskis intent SHOULD be the same. Because that's what the game is about. Bemoaning the cruelty of the universe.

If you agree that's what it is about, then we are on the same page.

>First, sure, I do equivocate
Yup. And you equivocate even more to cover that up. If you dislike me discarding the rest of your argument, then I will equivocate my discarding of your argument with you summarizing mine because both involve truncation.

>>98126464
True. The caste books have a rather different tone to the rest of Exalted. Did they get a line shift or fire all the writers or something?

>>98126425
>And there's a numbered around exceptions that are unambiguously destructive or corruptive influences, and then there's the majority that's somewhere in between.
I mean the in-between are largely happy to "merely" exploiting followers for nothing in return. So I reject this premise.

>>98126468
>And you equivocate even more to cover that up
To cover up the thing I admitted to? Okay, anon.

> If you dislike me discarding the rest of your argument
I do dislike it, but it is about what I expected based on how you've been taking part in this discussion so far. so far you've expressed puzzlement about other people not finding gods in Exalted uniformly horribly evil, ignored arguments for why people think that, and pretty much refused to answer when asked about why specific gods are supposed to be so evil. I'm going to head to bed now, but I'll drop by the thread again tomorrow. If you at some point start to feel like actually reading and replying to arguments while also making some of your own, I would actually be interested in talking about morality of gods in this game.

>>98126492
There's a number of gods, ones explicitly mentioned in this thread, who answer prayers, or provide services for a fair price - the latter's obviously transactional but not obviously exploitative.

>>98126481
I think the writing was more focused, instead of trying to ape everything, and the typical villain sues barely appeared in them.

>>98126503
>There's a number of gods
Il double check GoD when I get home, but I was not impressed with that number when I first read the book, and multiple readings since, and the opening bit on the gods begins by framing them as callous and detached as a baseline.

>>98126506
Sure but what Changed? Given the rest of the line, im more likely to call the Caste books a fluke then anything else.

>>98126536
>Sure but what Changed? Given the rest of the line, im more likely to call the Caste books a fluke then anything else
Exalted isn't a collective whole, it was pretty much written by parts based on spurs of the moment.
It is basically a Frankenstein monster of several fantasy works haphazardly thrown together.
The caste book Dawn has the Howardian parts, Yurgen exaltation being based on gods of the North, and Jalith being exiled from her hometown.

For some reason I'm always thrown off by people applying modern views of good/evil into fiction that explicitly isn't in any way comparable to the modern Earth.

>>98126628
That's really impressive

>>98126628
Exalted runs in Schrodinger ancient morality, it is pre modern until it isn't.
In 3e, erasing slavery is the go to moral option given.
The "it is a pre modern civilization!!" Is more of a shield against criticism, really.

When an office worker gets mad, he just looks silly. When the great Khan gets just as mad, people die. Both men have the same flaw and the same vice, but its perceived as worse because the latter is powerful enough to make his sins other people's problem. This is the crux. If your moral system evaluates only actions, not character, than every historical figure is a monster because every single one has at least one absolutely horrific deed they perpetrated or permitted, often for selfish or evil reasons. The celestial gods are, at the least, not notably worse than real world kings and emperors and conquerors, in terms of their character. If you want to call Alexander the Great 'evil' because he did horrible things go ahead, but I think that's reductive.

>>98126628
>For some reason I'm always thrown off by people applying modern views of good/evil into fiction that explicitly isn't in any way comparable to the modern Earth.
While I get where you are comming from there is only so many way of saying "that guy sure was an ass but he was reasonable in comparison to his peers"

>>98126655
The writers get mad if you take the side of the yozis against the gods

Can we talk about something less fucking depressing please?

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>>98126764
No. Exalted sucks so there is only pain and sorrow here

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How much damage would be apropriate for a Shadowlands spell that turns a corpse into something like a landmine without animating it?

>>98126764
Ok, did you ever use a minor irl god like Heryshaf in your games?

>>98126776
If it's indended to be a demo charge or arty, something comparable to Flight of the Brilliant Raptor. If it's to be mass-produced, about 2/3 of that damage.

>>98126776
A corpse, or corpses? If the latter, environmental effect

>>98126838
Corpse singular, its supossed to be a way for necromancers to set one last fuck you to grave robbers.
>>98126796
thanks.

>>98123459
What original gods have you created, and do they have any Exigents?

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>>98127060
I have a draft for a group of calender gods that 5 Days of Darkness is helping to become more prominent.

>>98127060
I've made a bunch of Gods that are technically original because my Twilight used Ghost eating Technique and Carnal Spirit Rending to kill uncooperative Gods and then use Ephemeral Induction Technique to create very similar Gods except that they are much more aligned to his agenda.

Hasn't had to do it for a while though, apparently word got around and nowadays most Gods are willing to knuckle under rather than be murdered and recycled\

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>>98127210
Interesting, I wonder if he will get support from some Solar.

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>>98127403
To be fair, his main problem is the fact he is shady as shit, and an Eclipse or Zenith would expedite the hell out of his project to get a proper seasonal job and become the equivalent of Santa Claus and grant wishes during calibration or whatever the fuck.
At least helping the guy get a demigod to keep the ball rolling.

So the STG has alternative anima rules that finally allow noncombat cases to use their iconics, and also to treat flaring anima as a way of accessing more of your motes in exchange for revealing your nature. That's awesome.

What's not awesome is that at iconic the benefit that EVERYONE gets is the strongest part of the Solar traits (free Excellency) (which isn't even the strongest Solaroid mote efficiency ability).

As a consolation, the Solars get 1 (one) extra die when using their excellencies at iconic.

>>98127550
Neat what do each of the exalts get out of it?

>>98127588
The rule works like this: Ignore all previous anima gaining and spending rules.

You start at Dim and don't benefit from Breath of War.

At Glowing you get BoW back.

The first time you hit Burning you immediately recover 5 motes.

At Iconic you get free excellencies, but since Solars already have that they get an extra die instead.

On your turn you can go up a level if you want, totally voluntary. At Glowing your castemark is visible but possible to miss if you quickly dispatch your enemy and jet, at Burning you have a DBZ aura and everyone can easily see what you are. At Iconic there is a giant glowing lion or whatever in the sky above the and everyone can see you for miles around.

Going up in anima is basically accessing your peripheral motes.

If a charm cost a few anima, it costs an extra more instead (waived at Burning). If it costs 5+ anima, it costs 2 extra motes instead (waived at Iconic).

It's overall pretty cool but it increases the power of every exalt type other than Solars more than it does Solars. I'd probably just give them an extra more per turn at iconic, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

>>98127643
pretty neat im going to read it and see if this works for my next game

>>98126340
the "reward" was giving your weapons your job while you go for cocaine and whores and starcraft. doesnt sound like rewards.

>>98127060

unyufex, god of predator companions.
he look like a humanoid tyrant lizard. Used to be a sidereal familiar.

>>98127210
doesnt 5dd fucking HATE the calendar gods because they wont let him be calibration god?

>>98127756
I feel so old for recognizing that reference.

>>98127759
So it makes sense that he would support weaker gods who are trying to usurp them.

>>98127775
teehee!

>>98127787
oh, NEW calendar gods, right.

Well Il guess il give GoD another readthrough, maybe its less overtly cynical then I remember.

>Now, only the dullest or most stolidly loyal of the gods still uphold the natural order. The greedy and the self-advancing have long abandoned their thankless posts and now seek to gain stature as masters of Creation or lords of men. These dishonest gods and disreputable elemental lords accept tribute, wage war amongst one another and otherwise neglect their station in favor of their own personal betterment. In cities such as Great Forks and Whitehall, gods rule the nations of men as their lords.
>Games of Divinity, Introduction, Paragraph 2

In conclusion, the people that don't call the gods evil just mentally mothball information they don't like, and resent being reminded of their delusions.
FIN

>>98127837
Kind of funny how anti-union and workers rights GoD is.

>>98127856
Its just broadly anti-everything. The workers are shitty, the owners are shitty, the previous owners are shitty.

GoD just a slog to read. The first 20 or so pages are just a parade to make extra triple sure that the gods are characterized by being abusive to mortals, and to each other.
Its not framed morally by being "Ancient or Alien Morality". No its very clear they just suck. Its so neon sign-blinking, fireworks in the sky overt that the gods are evil that people that miss that should get their eyes checked.

And its not just that their evil. Their banal. I recently watched an episode of Smiling Salesman. That's a spirit that basically just loves to fuck with people exclusively for torturous kicks. But he has his principles and he does it for the joy of torment. And he does actually keep his word. So sometimes he's forced into stupid shit because he upholds that principle.
Exalted Gods by contrast are just shitty nobles.

And thats OK, but fuck is it dull and tiresome when its basically the only paragraph on repeat.
Some gods, assuming that the first 20 or so pages framing them all as shitty in their spare time are discarded, do indeed reach the lofty heights as "Not uniquely dedicated to being shit".
Vanileth is OK and Shalrina is just a neutral merchant.

But fuuuck. Its like gasps of air while being drowned. Again not only are they evil, but their DULL.

>>98127949
Funny how Lovecraft made overall more positive gods and inhuman races in Dream Quest for unknown Kardath who are heavily implied to be the Gods of Pegana

>>98127949
Immaculate proven right once again, the gods need to be kept in their place.

>>98127978
Reagan was right, union busting for the win.

>gets made for job.
>rebels to not do job.
>this means you're evil.
>extra evil if you get a position of power.

we didn't punish the primordials hard enough.

>>98127801
Yeah, I was thinking about making them a group of ascended God-Blooded each with a powerset tied to the stuff the trybe must do during that time.
5DD in exchange gets their worship during Calibration.

>>98128002
If they wanted to avoid that, maybe they could have made the task of maintenance a joyful one.

>>98128002
It is just post emancipation Haiti, turns out a place goes to shit after you refuse to actually run and maintain it.

In before; even the leaders of the slave revolts complained about the lack of support they got after they were free.

>>98126795
NTA but I've used plenty of minor gods in my games, mostly ones I've come up with myself. River gods, road gods, a plague god, a goddess of drunken reverly and hangover with a focus on secrets people let slip when drunk and regret having told afterwards, and other such gods have featured in my games.

>>98127748
Well, a lot of people would, historically have and currently do consider power, wealth and sovereign rulership things worth striving for.

>>98127837
First of all, a lot of the gods who most actively do something beneficial don't "uphold the natural order". Syndics break the rules through their rulership, as do gods of the Great Forks. I mean, both of those were mentioned in the bit you quoted, but their rulership is more a good thing than a bad thing for their subjects. Secondly, that's literally and very straightforwardly just describing gods being dudes, as in, it's describing them do the same kinds of things humans do. Like, most of those "greedy and self-advancing gods" don't do anything terribly heinous. They wield their powers to their own benefit, sure, the way most Exalts do, the way most human kings do, the way most humans with wealth do. If your argument is just that "power is evil", you'd have a stronger position - I'd still not agree, but it'd be more honest and more internally consistent than singling gods out as somehow worse than humans.

>>98127949
It's really weird to hear someone talk like that about one of the best books in the line. Not werid in the sense of it being wrong, because to each their own, can't argue about matters of taste etc., but it's weird how much tastes differ.

>>98127949
>>98128594
Post was getting too long, so continuing here.

>>Some gods, assuming that the first 20 or so pages framing them all as shitty in their spare time are discarded, do indeed reach the lofty heights as "Not uniquely dedicated to being shit".
That's most of them, though. Out of the 12 named gods in GoD, Siakal's the most unambiguously evil, Grala and Calthia hunt humans which is enough of a case for them being evil for me to accept it. Marthesine's borderline because she doesn't really do anything actively bad, but for the sake of the argument I could, really stretching the meaning of "evil", agree that her refusal to give up anything in her possession without a price is pretty bad. Hell, lets throw in Plentimon too, because he does curse people sometimes. That's 5/12 that could be considered pretty bad, and mind you that this is me using the loosest standards possible for evil just to meet you halfway. Ahlat's also not great if you consider what's written about him later, but the writeup in GoD doesn't actually contain anything really bad.

You're reading the material with pretty obvious confirmation bias, cherrypicking examples, twisting some things in your mind to be worse than they are, and, what's worse, refusing to compare gods to the ways humans behave (which would, quite straightorwardly, support the view of gods as just people). That power without oversight is a bad thing that easily leads to corruption actually is an idea obviously present in Exalted's writing, and it applies to gods as well as to everyone else, but it definitely also applies to everyone else.

Now that the dust has settled, how do we think 3e Infernals compare to Solars and Abyssals mechanically?

>>98127856
That makes 3e Sidereals being tacitly pro-union/workers all the funnier. You cannot convince me in either 1e or 2e that the Incarnae would've given a single shit about gods enslaving other gods.

>>98128594
>>98128609
Nta but I get the strange impression you and the other guy both broadly agree on the gods THEMSELVES being largely cruel and selfish, with the main argument being you seem to be taking the stance that this is a reflection of mortals and thus sentient life in Exalted at large.

I...don't think this is necessarily disagreeing with him? From what I have read of the convo he is literally just saying the gods (like most White Wolf characters) are dicks, not the implications or reasons for that or what kind of literary point is making.

Just that they're nasty little fucks.

>>98126196
>exalted are a bunch of neets
Eh, to be fair by the time of the story Tanith Lee's gods have gone full NEET as well after getting all their killing and raping out of their systems. And technically speaking, from a utilitarian perspective Saturn is technically responsible for the end of most good things within Fate's design while Mars for every unjust Battle, Jupiter for every hurtful secret etc.

>>98128952
>Nta but I get the strange impression you and the other guy both broadly agree on the gods THEMSELVES being largely cruel and selfish, with the main argument being you seem to be taking the stance that this is a reflection of mortals and thus sentient life in Exalted at large.
Eh, I'd definitely not agree with gods being particularly cruel, because most of them just aren't. Selfish, sure, in that they care about their own interests and those of people they personally care about more than interests of strangers or abstract principles. That's how most people work, so I'd not consider that a terrible moral failure, just a case of not being morally upstanding, either. I don't think there's anything specific to sentient life in Exalted in this, either. People just are fairly selfish and have a hard time genuinely caring about people they don't personally know, in real life as well. That is not to say that no one has principles or that no one cares about the world beyond themselves and their loved ones. A lot of people have and a lot of people do, but it's a rare person who doesn't prioritize matters close to them over abstract or distant concerns. That's how it works for gods in Exalted, too. Their selfishness is currently highlighted because the Celestial Bureaucracy is dysfunctional as fuck, there's no real oversight, trying to actually do their jobs is thankless and in many way pointless, and everyone else seems to be just looking out for themselves. It's like any system with widespread corruption. It's not like, say every Soviet citizen skirting or breaking the rules, taking and/or giving brides and so on was some evil beast with no morality, they were just people trying to live the best they could with a broken system. That's gods, too.

>I...don't think this is necessarily disagreeing with him?
I think it is. Here >>98125901 anon pretty clearly disagrees with the idea that the gods are "just like people".

>>98128994
>Selfish, sure, in that they care about their own interests and those of people they personally care about more than interests of strangers or abstract principles.
As someone else who's read GoD but really just doesn't have it in him to fight over an edition long forgotten and replaced by 3e dreck, I would argue that selfishness itself is a manifestation of cruelty, and that letting power go all the way to your head like a politician/serial killer does not diminish your cruelty. I get it, power corrupts. You're still a corrupt piece of shit. Especially if you fought a war that reduced Creation greatly and didn't even have the decency to put back what you knocked down, explicitly (in 1e) with the primary goal of desiring to play the cosmic xbox.

Two things can be true at once. People can be inherently prone to cruelty and selfishness, and also as a result of systemic factors the gods of Yu-Shan as a result can in fact be defined as cruel. If anything, comparing them to Soviet citizens is an apt demonstration of their cruelty from my point of view.

>Here
No? The megacorpo head comparison is very apt imo. Yes, they are like people. Yes, they are also very cruel. Fiction has many gods far less cruel who do not attempt to ape human nature that closely.

Two things can be true at once. Gods can be written like IRL people, and IRL people can be cruel due to systemic factors.

I stayed out of this little debacle for a reason, I really just wanna talk shop about Solaroids with you guys because I'm still riding the residue of the dopamine hit from realising 3e Infernals wasn't nearly as bad as the previews made them out to be

>>98129081
>I would argue that selfishness itself is a manifestation of cruelty
I would ask for some clarification on why you think that, as that seems like an odd thought, and one that obviously matters beyond the context of Exalted. My view is that cruelty is not always rooted is selfishess - people can obviously be cruel out of all kinds of reasons, such as fanatical commitment to some principle - nor does selfishness imply sadism or necessarily even a lack of empathy, it just says something about a person's priorities.

>No?
I think that arguing that an anon explicitly wondering about why people insist that gods are just like people doesn't actually disagree with gods being just like people is quite a strange thing to do.

>spoiler
I mean, sure, that'd probably be a better use of everyone's time. I'm pretty happy with Infernals too, though with some, mostly fairly minor complaints. I've found myself warming to the akumas being now called warlocks, which initially sort of pissed me off. There are still too many fiddly Charms, but core drags the whole line down in that respect, and Infernal Charms are definitely a lot better written than Solar Charms.

>>98129097
>My view
My view is that power is like alcohol, it reveals as much as it influences. There were many opportunities for the gods, upon consolidating their victory over the Primordials, to care for and nurture allies such as the Mountain Folk and Dragon Kings who sacrificed greatly in their endeavour. They did not. They unilaterally appear to have concerned themselves with revelling in the spoils of victory from the outset.
>quite a strange thing
Though I admit I might not have the full context for what's going on since I just got here. Anyway onto the actually fun stuff.
>fairly minor complaints
Anything in particular? I must say I'm not a fan of the self-righteous fury angle and preferred the "depraved tyrant warlock" angle of the preview. Ironically even though I was concerned by Holden's focus on the worst of the First Age, 3e seems to want Infernals to come across as HEROES even warped and corrupted by their vices rather than the extremes of Solar virtue (in the general sense, now that 3e has basically done away with capital V Virtues) and it comes off as a bit tryhard. I was expecting to absolutely hate the "Infernals no longer use proper Yozi Charms" thing but the brief fluff for the Essence of Hell was so comically wanky I was won over in spite of myself.
>still too many fiddling Charms
Once per story/session/scene/whatever other reset nonsense really feels like a poorly thought out gimmick that hamstrings the gameline in the name of clumsily solving rocket tag
>Infernal Charms are definitely a lot better written
Moreso than Abyssal Charms too, in some ways. Not just what seem to be the intentional ones such as mote economy or more esoteric effects, but the overall design of things like Charms proccing on situational effects like being bigger than someone or higher up than them seems a lot more flexible than Abyssals requiring to land a Crippling effect/negative tie or principle on someone before their Charms can really get going.

>>98129169
>Anything in particular?
To be honest I can't recall most of the things that annoyed me when rading the manuscript right now, which speaks to how minor they were. Those small, fiddly Charms is definitely one thing, and I'm not a fan of this edition's take on the Ebon Dragon. Wasn't a big fan of the 2E take either, really, but I might actually prefer it to 3E somewhat. If he absolutely has to be committed to pointless antagonism - as opposed to doing monstrous things as a part of his attempts to break out - then going balls to the walls with it would be the best way to go. I'd prefer it if he wasn't committed to pointless antagonism and was dangerous mostly because he's the one Yozi who still insanely believes in the possibility of breaking out and actively schemes towards that outcome, though.

>I must say I'm not a fan of the self-righteous fury angle and preferred the "depraved tyrant warlock" angle of the preview.
I somewhat agree. I think Infernals being chosen from people with a bone to pick with the world is fine and makes sense, but, like, Infernals as flashy, loud Princes of Hell clad in silk and jewelry and served by hordes of worshipful demon slaves, actively encouraged by their patrons, their Essence and their circumstances alike to embrace excess and hubris, is definitely how I like to see them.

>>98129097
>>98129169
>>98129241
>cont.

>I was expecting to absolutely hate the "Infernals no longer use proper Yozi Charms" thing but the brief fluff for the Essence of Hell was so comically wanky I was won over in spite of myself.
I've actually come to think that having even more focus on Essence of Hell and fewer Charms obviously tied to a specific Yozi might have been good. Now that all of the Yozis are there in the mix, so to speak, there isn't really room to do all of them justice, not even with the fuckload of Charms 3E has. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be Yozi Charms at all, but having Yozi Charms be their own separate thing, the way Soul Pantheon, Inner World and Devil-Body Charms are, with every Yozi getting a couple of big, powerful, flavorful Charms, might've been more satisfying than sort of sprinkling Yozi themes among dice tricks and other Ability Charms. I haven't really thought a great deal about how that might work in practice, though.

>Moreso than Abyssal Charms too, in some ways. Not just what seem to be the intentional ones such as mote economy or more esoteric effects, but the overall design of things like Charms proccing on situational effects like being bigger than someone or higher up than them seems a lot more flexible than Abyssals requiring to land a Crippling effect/negative tie or principle on someone before their Charms can really get going.
Benefits of coming later in the line there. It might also be in part because writers just find Infernals more interesting to write than Abyssals.

>>98129251
>Benefits of coming later in the line there. It might also be in part because writers just find Infernals more interesting to write than Abyssals.
Abyssals are just crippled theme wise, they range from "slightly more supernatural, evil solars" to "emulate self indulgent evil solar elders".

>>98127060
I've had a silly idea for Calm Serenity, Western Goddess of Peace and Calm Waters.
I like to envision her as just another war god as the type of Peace she fosters is Peace by Submission. She's also master of the doldrum, able to calm the skies and waves and strand any ship for days.

I like to give her a major following in Wu Jian, the martial arts culture there has a strict code and honor system she practically wrote and her priesthood enforces. Without it the place would be a lot more chaotic and deadly.

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Behold, one of Death's Lawgivers, an Abyssal Exalted of the Daybreak caste. Or should I say, the FLOORBREAK caste!

>>98130762
>Fat
>Ugly
>Somehow infernal green anima
ugh

>>98130801
Abyssals got the short end of the stick with their color scheme, the most vibrant colors of the underworld are just shades of gray, so they had to step on other splats toes.

>>98130306
That sounds like a pretty solid idea for a goddes to me, not really particularly silly.

>>98130762
Well, she certainly didn't die of starvation. I'm not really opposed to the idea of a fat Exalt, but at least make them a sumo wrestler, or a maximum bearmode strongman with a prominent gut but also muscle, or something like that. Or, I dunno, just make the art otherwise good. A fat nerdy scholar is fine, too, but that one seems to dress to specifically highlight the fact that they're fat, and the pic's pretty shit for reasons unrelated to that, too. I'd find a full-on Jabba the Hutt mode Abyssal clad in voluminous robes and a jewelry made of bones and soulsteel carried on a palanquin by undead servants better than that. If an Exalt's fat they should at least be cool and visually impressive in other ways, is my point, instead of looking like a middle aged American office worker cosplaying as an Abyssal.

>>98130815
Blood-red is right there, though. I think you could do a fair amount with blood-red, bone-white and deep, deep black.

>>98130826
>If an Exalt's fat they should at least be cool and visually impressive in other ways
3e has a poor art direction in general, most characters are just dressing in plain clothes, even the rest of the don't really have trappings of the dead.

>>98130762
I bet her Apocalyptic Ability is Craft, so she can invent an artifact fat scooter.

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>>98130845
>>98130826
1e art mogs 3e so hard it's not even funny.

>>98130762
>hit Resonance 10
>fall unconscious from diabeetus

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>>98130837
Red, black and white are dangerous to be combined together, the artist can accidentally end up hitting an interesting form of edgy that devs are afraid of.

>>98130801
>>98130815
Green is a valid Abyssal color, Crypt Bolts are traditionally green.

>>98131113
I'm a firm believer of strong anima color separation.
It's part of why I dislike exigents they muddle the color coding to the point of no return.

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>>98131113
Source? I checked 2e, and it didn't mention green being common.

>>98131247
Fair.

>>98131261
What did it say, anon? Quote it here please.

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>>98131113
>Traditionally Green
Where?
This is 1e btw

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>>98131269
nta, but here's from 2e

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Also holy shit, I can't believe how much MoEP: Abyssals mogs ANY 3e Cover art.

>>98131293
>>98131311
Weird, I could've sworn it came in green. Oh well, it's not much of a stretch.

>>98131351
I prefer that outfit for the Lady in Darkness than her traditional chaintits. She can keep the chaintits but I like her "evil priestess" look from the cover quite a lot.

>>98131404
It kind of is green is not associated with death at all in exalted it's strongly associated with demons.
>>98131508
Homosexual

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Need an opinion on something. Looking at scroll of heroes. Extra Favored Ability Merit, 2bp, gives you an extra favored ability, to a max of five. Similarly, God-Blooded Prodigy Mutation, 4 bp gives you an extra favored ability, you may take it four times.

Are these the same fucking thing, but God-Blooded Prodigy is worse because it costs more for no discernable reason?

Or, say, I'm playing a solar, I already have five favored abilities and therefor can't take Extra, can I still pick up God-Blooded Prodigy and thus have a sixth favored ability?

>>98131749
Disregard both, they're for powergaming fags who exploit merits

>>98131764
You don't understand, it's not about power, I need this to win an argument.

>>98131749
The difference is that you can stack them

>>98131822
So I could get nine favored abilities? However many I start with, up to five with Extra, and then four more with the mutation?

>>98131849
lmao it literally says no character may have more than five favoured abilities.

>>98129241
>minor things
Off the top of my head the Charms that banish someone to Cecelyne/the darkness outside existence/trap them in a sort of prison-world to fight you getting a diff 5 escape/disengage clause always seemed hella lame to me. Just make it a Shaping effect so you don't get weird situations where flying animals are better than socially focused Exalts at escaping Hell's grip. Green Sun Nimbus Flare not having a Key to be used in the other combat abilities stings because Sandstrike Blast shows they're not averse to the idea. Universe-Shattering Supernova Wrath is wasted on the Circle of Bright Reaving expy it's attached to and should've been given to a Burning Sky Apocalypse Strike equivalent. Investigation is weird mundane compared to the equivalent for Solars and Abyssals barring one or two notable exceptions, although even I have to admit it is much more streamlined. Being unable to ride the more abstract demons is a tragedy compared to what Sidereals can.

>this edition's take on the Ebon Dragon
It didn't overmuch upset me, just perplex me not only did they roll back to 2Ebby but also proceeded to seemingly take away the pathetic behaviour he exhibited then despite their oft-stated goals for 3e. The Ebon Dragon is somehow even more like Aku now.

>Princes of Hell
Yeah, pretty much. Crowned By Hellfire does seem to play some lip service to the idea, but I get the impression Vance and/or the writing team is very strongly attached to the idea of self-righteous fury for Infernals.

>>98131351
YEP, pretty much. Even though the aesthetics of Abyssal Charms then had more ice, entropy and shadows back then the cover page effortlessly depicted what some of the new Charms in 3e seem to be trying to convey.

>>98129251
>even more focus
I've come round to thinking that way as well. One of the things that really pissed me off about Essence was the devs going "We're not giving Infernals Yozi Charms anymore"...and then copy word for word 2e Charms as most of their loadout. It felt like an intellectually dishonest way of them telling you not to do the cool thing while also not being arsed to articulate something equally compelling to replace it with; at least in the old preview Holden seemed to have a vision of Infernal Charms existing in a weird symbiosis with Infernals.

As things are now, Infernal Charms seem to be 60% Yozi effects but more blended into each other and 40% generic villain/self-righteous firebrand themed effects. And I do feel it negatively dilutes the themes at a certain point. It doesn't help that as far as I can tell, they're handwaving actual 3e Yozi Charms as the generic-ass Eclipse shit they just make up for NPCs on the fly given what Warlocks can get from them in pacts.

I didn't like a lot of 3e changes, but I dislike even more when 3e seems too cowardly to actually elaborate on a new vision of the game instead of timidly suggest things are different and go back to treating them the same anyway. Like how the First Age was no longer a period of mostly uninterrupted prosperity but the Warstrider lore acts as if it was anyway.

>>98131873
Then why does God-Blooded Prodigy even exist?

>>98131931
2e writers didn't de-conflict between books

>writers
Real. The writers definitely feel the most awake when writing for Sidereals and Infernals. Most of Abyssals exceeds Werewolf the Forsaken-levels of trying to overcorrect perceived past sins of the line.

Somehow, it's still better than Solars. In terms of presentation and thematic cohesion, everyone is better than Solars. And they'll never get errata.

Playing a Solar in 3e is a weird experience in which if you know which Charms work you are still mechanically superior to everyone else because the game is balanced around you...in short bursts, and the severity of mechanical penalties means that you are soft-nerfed compared to Abyssals and Infernals who have more offence or ways to bypass mechanics like Soak/Hardness than you. More importantly, you also benefit from Holdenmorke's weird autism allowing you to do things like have multiple character sheets through Socialise or set up infinite Craft-to-Lore xp loops that theoretically could let you buy every published Solar Charm over a couple of scenes at the low, low cost of destroying game balance.

But if you don't know what you're doing, you'll be going for capstone Charms at Supernal you will quite reasonable expect to be potent and powerful only to realise later that

>The Charm amounts to giving you one (1) clue that advances yet never immediately solves a problem for 12 motes 1 willpower
>The Charm has an overly nitpicky caveat like letting you attempt a feat of strength at any difficulty but enforcing the law of leverage on you. Solars are the only Exalts this limitation will ever apply to.
>The Charm refers to mechanics NOT explained in core
>The Charm provides an extremely niche ability like automatically succeeding on a rush or manifesting a poorly defined narrative effect. It's not even that good. But subsequently the devs decide every Solar peer must have one even if it's never used.
>In your folly and hubris, you wanted to play Supernal Linguistics and are faced with Cup Boils Over

>>98131942
>>98129251

>>98131932
They're in the same book.

>>98131942
>Real. The writers definitely feel the most awake when writing for Sidereals and Infernals.
Because these are the only 2 splats that aren't crippled in some way.

Solars are the first splat, and they are hindered by the "supernormal".
Lunars never recovered from 1e feral animal exalted.
Dragon Blooded are forced in the role of weaker elemental Solars.
Abyssals are Solars but evil.
Despite Alchemicals being "anything mechanical goes", the slots and commitment kneecaped them.
Sidereals are in theme of constellations, that the devs made up, and there are 25 of them for them to choose from.
Infernals are the same as Sidereals but demonic as defined by the devs.

>>98132008
>the "supernormal"
In 3e specifically they feel crippled by a weird mix of that, the writers really wanting them to be Sidereals for whatever reason, and Holdenmorke trying to win online arguments while simultaneously putting in absolute nonsense "because it should be there" which is way worse than just the usual supernormal issues

>1e feral animal exalted
I feel the devs trying to cope they are anything but that has done almost as much damage, it's always performative and superficial while they keep crawling back to shapeshifting as the go-to for meaningful mechanical interaction. As a result of starting so far at the bottom they have nowhere to go but up.

>Dragon Blooded
In this edition a lot of their Charms feel more gimped by mechanics than anything, conceptually interesting but forced to engage with little bro syndrome. Fortunately, they can still bully Solars and Abyssals with onslaught penalty rules. Unfortunately Infernals have the option to dematerialise indefinitely, slap down Exalt-targetting environmental damage and other rule-bypassing tricks that make the 3 DBs a lot worse at hunting them.

>Abyssals
Still marvelling at how I ended up wishing for more Deathlord Charms after realising for all their fancy promises the devs just brought back the Mirror keyword unofficially.

>Sidereals
Sidereals are in theme for whatever the current devs think is cool, frankly.

>>98131942
>Werewolf the Forsaken-levels of trying to overcorrect perceived past sins of the line.
You're gonna have to elaborate because I never read anything from Werewolf so I have no ide what you're talking about.

>>98132092
Do you remember that one episode from SpongeBob, where Squidward convinced him to erase everything from his mind with the exception of fine dining and breathing? This is what the devs did to Apocalypse to make Forsaken.

>>98132092
>One of the designated evil and wrong werewolf factions, the Predator Kings, are literally just Garou stereotypes.
>Uratha (Forsaken werewolves) are constantly wracked by guilt and responsibility for an ultimate murder that tore down the old spirit world and resulted in the current separation of spirit and flesh
>stricter laws against the kind of rape camp behaviour Garou sometimes inflicted on other shifters
Except Changing Breeds which, weirdly, basically encouraged you to play an Apocalypse-style Garou on top of having garbo rules

>>98132008
>>98132075

So what do you think Solars would ideally be, if not the Supernormal Exalted?

>>98132114
I am pretty cool with the Solar themes shown in Lords of Creation, Glories of the Most High and Ink Monkeys actually, mechanics aside.

>Purifying sunlight
>Holy authority
>Full on wuxia "I cut every mile with my sword but unerringly avoid stabbing anyone my blade strikes" anime physics with a paladin bent

Also while I'm okay with Solars having shadow themes in Dodge/Stealth, it would be nice if they also had a different sort of dodge that was also a sunlight flashbang.

>>98132114
Also, Solars throwing kamehamehas and shooting sword beams is fine but I'd still rather have skipping on clouds and jumping over mountains than flat-out flying.

Also also I never actually remember being critical of the idea of the "Supernormal Exalted" take for Solars as long as their powerlevel is up to scratch and the other themes aren't excluded, I was just shitting on the idea of Holdenmorke giving them Sidereal Charms and also internet argument/headcanon minmaxing Charms.

>>98132129
Solar Dodge should involve after-images and things like that. I imagine Solar Stealth to be a little like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxr-qSiZshQ

>>98132129
>>98132137
We're of the same mind. Many people don't like Solars because they're "Human abilities cranked up to the Nth degree" in a game where everyone else is "Human abilities cranked up to the N-1st degree" but I think this can co-exist with themes of Light, Law, and Leadership. I'd need to go back over the high concept charms but I only really care about them paladins insofar as they are dedicated to defeating Creatures of Darkness

>>98132008
>Solars are the first splat, and they are hindered by the "supernormal".
I think they were struggling to find out what the solar core identity was concisely. The first edition reads like they were mainly chasing a "vibe" rather than a concept, and the other ones look clean-cut in comparison. They are supposed to cover every last hero in antiquity, but they don't find a way to tie them all into a neat package.

>>98132137
The problem with solars as the supernormal, is that it lead to dicecreep and a kneecap of the other splats.

>>98132321
It is because solars aren't supernatural themselves, but supernormal.
And the other splats also cover the supernormal despite being supernatural.

Excellencies alone cover 95% of the Tarzan or hero of antiquity concept.

>>98132335
>Excellencies alone cover 95% of the Tarzan or hero of antiquity concept.
Yeah that's kind of my main problem with their powerset as one too many of their individual charms sound like something that should be the end result of 10-15+ successes.

>World where humanity and human things are not unique, and worthless
>Splat based on being human sucks.
Humans can do amazing things like make paintings, or make medicine. But in Creation they are actually the worst at doing so. So much so that other species correctly view them as retarded.

Every splat can make awesome paintings and medicine, even if their base concept cannot (elements, animals) but they can also shapeshift, teleport, have elemental telekinesis or manipulate the baseline fabric of probability while having martial arts that let them do anything and everything imaginable.
Exalted was a failure at inception.
Also yeah, most Exalted superpowers are shit that could be covered by Excellencies 95% of the time.
Some Charms are more embarrassing then D&D 3e feats.
And your supposed to take on Demons the size of planets.

>>98132137
>Also also I never actually remember being critical of the idea of the "Supernormal Exalted" take for Solars as long as their powerlevel is up to scratch and the other themes aren't excluded,
Supernatural > Supernormal every time.

>>98130815
>>98130837
>Abyssal colors
What I want to know is why they have indigo/violet/purples associated with death and funerals ONLY in Sidereal and Sidereal-adjacent books, but when it comes to Abyssals and the Underworld the color that is uniquely associated with death in-setting in a way that isn't IRL never seems to come up.

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Huh. I wasn't aware the routes through Cecelyne into Creation were gated behind Calibration, or that they were so few in number. My initial exposure was through hype surrounding 2e Infernals and 3e Core, and the implication there always seemed to be that anybody could trip over and lose their compass in any wasteland to find themselves on the silver sands.

>>98132708
That has definitely changed between editions. In 2e there were a fixed number of gates into Yu shan, but Malfeas was there waiting to trap you the moment you got lost in the barren wilds

>>98131351
The only reason I get the deluxe books is because I don't have to see the dogshit art on the cover.

I can't believe holden said he cried when he saw the Ex3 corebook cover.

>>98133074
The corebook art is the only good 3E cover, and it blows most 2E covers out of the water

>>98133088
lol
lmao

I've seen Ex1 covers that were better than the Ex3's corebook by miles

>>98133091
>I've seen Ex1 covers that were better than the Ex3's corebook by miles
I hate to say it, but at least Savant and Sorcerer had style.

>>98133100
No shame in that, every 3e cover seems to be an exercise in being as unstylish as possible.

>>98133100
Savant and Sorcerer didn't have style. It had something, sex appeal at least, but style? No. 1E covers in general weren't great, for the most part, though they're definitely not worse than 3E ones. 2E had some genuinely good ones, though.

>>98131293
evidence of green abyssal anima powers
>3e
>Daybreak
A Daybreak Caste’s anima banner is typically a black mingled with greys, purples, dark greens, bruise-blues, & dark reds
>Day
A Day Caste’s anima banner is typically black & grey, sometimes tinted with sickly greens
>Moonshadow
A Moonshadow Caste’s anima banner is typically colored with translucent grays & blacks, sometimes glimmering with faint pale purple & green
>2e
>Day
The anima colors are usually ethereal gray & black, tinged with sickening greens & purples
>1e
>Daybreak
Their animas tend toward the more spectacular colors of the Underworld, displaying the whole range of grays with some purples & even dark greens
>Day
Their animas are a phantasmal black and gray, tinged with a sickly green
>Moonshadow
Their animas are translucent grays & blacks, often with faint pale purple & green sparkles

>>98133590
>>98131293
i forgot
>Essence
>Daybreak
Their anima banners are a stately gray shot through with purple and dark green
>Day
Their animas are ethereal grays and blacks, tinged with sickly greens.with sickly greens
>Moonshadow
Their animas are translucent silver and black sheets, with a faint corona of pale purple and green

>>98130801
>>Somehow infernal green anima
corpselight/will o' the wisp green though?

>>98133590
>>98133597
yes, and? the one you responded to was about crypt bolt coloring, not abyssal coloring

What color is balefire?

>>98133088
It's definitely not better than "most" 2e covers, but it us the best 3e cover, for sure. It's a shame they didn't go for a similar vibe with the other covers.

>>98133597
>>98133590
So never the lime green we see from fat lady daybreak as a full anima. Greens are sparkles, mottled, dark, or sickly.

>>98133605
>yes, and? the one you responded to was about crypt bolt coloring, not abyssal coloring
No, it goes back to >>98130762 >>98130801

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>>98132675
Exalted isn't a cohesive whole, the underworld was made this way because Grabowski thought Wraith (A.K.A the gray book of depression) was kewl.

>>98133964
He did develop both books though. Abyssals might have come first but that just means that Sidereals/Endings should have matched more closely to what death and endings looked like and had associations with in Creation based on the Abyssals book, rather than going off to do its own self-contained thing that clashes with what was previously established. Endings could easily have been a black or pale caste.

>>98131351
Couldn't recognize the midnight because of how much clothing she was wearing.

>>98134003
Like I said, the setting isn't cohesive.
And it is likely that purple was chosen to distinguish Sidereals from Abyssals.
Abyssals also don't have white, that is associated with Lunars.

>rather than going off to do its own self-contained thing that clashes with what was previously established.
It is the Abyssals who are doing their own self contained western thing.

>>98134003
Underworld's pretty much anathema to the themes and role of Endings, being all about things refusing to end when they should, so I don't think it's a given that Underworld's aesthetics and those of the Chosen of Endings should match. That said, 3E core says of shadowlands that "Colors leech out over a span of decades, or become flush and violent in their intensity" and that - colors being wrong but not necessarily muted and not monochrome grey - does sound like a lot better look for the Underworld, too, that all being blacks and grays.