>>98129391
A term that's completely lost all meaning because of retards on the Internet.

>>98129391
Probably a new spam template.

>>98129391
It's neither of your images. On the left is bow fantasy, and on the right is row fantasy.

I understand you probably got confused because they sound similar.

>>98129391
The Macht trilogy by Paul Kearney

>>98129408
>row fantasy
it's age of sail though

>>98129391
first of all, this is for /lit/ not /tg/

secondly, there is no hard, universal meaning for low fantasy because people cant even agree on high fantasy

if we take high fantasy to mean "secondary world only", then low fantasy would mean any setting where 21st century earth is a major part of the setting
either an isekai, because it involves humans from earth in another world, or urban fantasy, where vampires/aliens/magical creatures live among us

the other meaning of low fantasy is that it takes place in a setting where fantastical elements are extremely rare or non-existent
in LOTR, God literally sang the world into existence, angels walk among us and wear funny hats, and the entire plot revolves around a magic ring that can do whatever the plot demands
its also takes place X thousand years before history, before any trace of our present existence was known and where no character has any real connection to our world except for technicalities (the only time it matters is for the framing device of the in-universe lord of the rings book being retranslated into english but not to the actual plot)
so its "high" fantasy in both senses of the word

>>98129395
It never really had a meaning

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>>98129424
>this isn't rowboat fantasy

If I understand correctly originally it was used to distinguish between (low) fantasy that still took place in our world (e.g. bram stoker's dracula), what we now might call urban fantasy, vs (high) fantasy that took place entirely within its own world with its own distinct landmasses, cultures, races/species, and even natural laws (e.g. game of thrones or lord of the rings).
yes I know lotr technically takes places in the distant past of our world but you would never know that if tolkien didn't tell us in some random letter or whatever so it still counts imo
However recently it has essentially changed to mean something else, where it now primarily distinguishes by how prevalent magic or the fantastical is in a particular story or setting. You can imagine this is somewhat arbitrary, and what counts as fantastical is different from person to person.

>>98129434
>in LOTR, God literally sang the world into existence, angels walk among us and wear funny hats, and the entire plot revolves around a magic ring that can do whatever the plot demands
LoR inevitably becomes our world like with Conan, and only 4 angels were sent.
It was extremely rare for early 20th century works to not "take place in real earth", Dracula, John Carter and the Land of Oz were framed as documentations of fantastical real events.

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>>98129391
>What the hell is "low fantasy"?
a knight of the seven kingdoms

>>98129434
It needn't be 21st century, it just meant fantastical stories that are supposed to take place in the real world.
>>98129435
Yes it did.

>>98129461
as mentioned, while framing device of a lost book that was translated and re-translated over time until it becomes myth means its technically "our earth", thats mostly irrelevant to the plot
the same goes for conan, the X thousand years before history is just a fancy framing device to justify why the environment and cultures arent anything like our world

whats important is the literay component (which is why this thread should be on /lit/ and not /tg/), because frodo does not want to return to edwardian england, has never seen england, and has no shared experience with the viewers except through broad symbolic ones

>Dracula, John Carter and the Land of Oz
dracula is literally set in romania, while john carter and dorothy are from the US
thats why LOTR was branded as "high" in comparison to regular fantasy, what we would now call "low" fantasy
its only on earth by a technicality, the aforementioned framing device, but the more important part as to why its high fantasy is that no one in the book has any direct connection to the modern world
everything that happens only affects their world and not ours
there is no quest to go home, they are already home

Originally meant fantasy stories that take place in our own world instead of a secondary universe. Now means fantasy stories that have minimal magical elements.

>>98129391
Low fantasy in TTRPGs means that your players can't be wizards
High fantasy in TTRPGs means that you'd be stupid not to play a wizard

>>98129547
>Originally meant fantasy stories that take place in our own world instead of a secondary universe.
in a literary sense, that still the understanding

because to a writer, whether a person can go back home or not, have family on earth they can miss, and a life experience thats totally unlike the new world has far more of an effect on the writing than whether the world they end up in has 20 magic spells, 1 magic spell, or ray guns

>>98129547
In the old definition, Conan would be low fantasy since it takes place in our ancient past. Settings like the Mount & Blade games would be high fantasy, because even though iirc those canon settings have no magic at all, they take place in a universe separate from our own

Harn is high fantasy because it takes place in a secondary world
Harn is high fantasy because it also has dwarves and elves and a bit of magic

>>98129558
Conan and lotr only take place on our world by technicality. I don't think they really count.

>>98129558
>Conan would be low fantasy since it takes place in our ancient past.
its actually still high fantasy, because being on a primordial earth is just set dressing to explain away why everything in conan is a fun house mirror of actual history

its in the same realm as star wars, which is technically low fantasy because its still in our universe, just in a different galaxy and in the past
but functionally, conan has only ever lived in his time period and has an existence that never intersects the readers

>>98129391
High fantasy is when you have floating aerial islands. Simple as.

>>98129555
RPG's are overly influential to modern fantasy writers these days, so even though that's true, they still work with definitions and tropes common in fantasy games. Hell the most common example people use for "low fantasy" is a book series, A Song of Ice and Fire

>>98129391
Traditional games?

>>98129570
People don't really treat either setting that way anymore, not even Conan

>>98129570
again, its in a literary context
when the dictionary of fantasy first created the definition of "high fantasy" to mean "another world" they explicitly chose LOTR as an example

the disingenuous would claim they are mistaken and didnt actually read the prologue detailing the red book and all that
though its more than likely that they did read the whole book, understood what it, and chose to write the definition anwyays

because the writing implication of the "otherworld" is that the heroes need stakes and motivations that exist entirely within the other world
the other world also has to be created as if it was an alternate history with its own logic and events and not simply a threshold that average high schooler needs to overcome to get over his flaws and return home a better person

>>98129580
a song of fire and ice fails to be low fantasy by either definition
its certainly not in our world or has people from our world
and it lacks the same framing device that LOTR has, making it even further from us than middle earth

its not particularly lacking in magic either
a giant 1000ft tall ice wall exists to keep out magic zombies while dragons fly around in the air

>>98129539
I meant the framing device, keyfabe, Dracula is a compilation of documents, both Dorothy and John Carter "told" the authors their stories.
It is an important plot point in Tarzan that his IRL movies existed in universe.
And some LoZ characters are familiar with Oz since they did read the novels.

>>98129571
>but functionally, conan has only ever lived in his time period and has an existence that never intersects the readers
King Kull time traveled to fight against the Roman legions.

>>98129408
Underrated post

>>98129605
I agree, functionally they take place on a different world. They're only our world by technicality.

>>98129605
>a song of fire and ice fails to be low fantasy by either definition
And yet people still use it as an example of low fantasy
It's almost like these two categories are vague and aren't concrete, proven by the fact that most people don't use them way they were meant to

>>98129391
If we look at what words mean, it would entail a relatively low amount of impossible or improbable aspects by comparison to its greater whole.
But people don't care about what words actually mean, they just parrot them however their favorite authors or fandoms misuse them.

>>98129391
The Dark Eye

>>98129713
>And yet people still use it as an example of low fantasy
only people with no idea of what high or low fantasy mean
no one who seriously talks about them uses anything other than high fantasy

>It's almost like these two categories are vague and aren't concrete
they are far more concrete than whatever definition is used to claim game of thrones is low fantasy

>>98129434
Mostly accurate when literary people are talking about genre.

>>98129391
In TTRPGs it means "fewer fantastical elements than you're used to in D&D." That's what we mean when we say it. Less magic and magic items and involved gods and magical beings. It's just an easy, short-hand way to say "less of the wacky stuff." It has utility to TTRPG gamers because there's a genuine need to distinguish games like some of the OSR retclones where you're playing the GRRM versions of fantasy from the modern D&D versions.

It has no specific meaning. There is no authority over what words mean and how you're allowed to use them. It's got utility, because if I said "we're playing a lower fantasy version of Forgotten Realms, more like 2e," you'd know what I meant. And it doesn't have anything to do w/ fiction genres.

>>98129751
When people bring up "low fantasy" they usually say Warhammer, GoT, and the Witcher. That's why I say the term has no meaning anymore. I've seen people vigorously argue that the fucking Black Company is low fantasy. People think that grim, bleak, or """grounded""" is the same thing as low fantasy, regardless of how fantastical those settings actually are.

>>98129605
>>98129751
I think there's a fair argument to be made that asoiaf is closer to low fantasy, at least at first. The magical elements are restricted to two characters and their storylines (jon in the north, dany in the east) which don't interact basically at all with any other plotlines until they're like 4 books in. In game of thrones the magic is basically restricted to three scenes; the prologue, the wight in that one jon chapter, and the birth of dany's dragons at the culmination of her arc at the end of the book. The meat and potatoes of the first book is firmly just political intrigue. Over the course of the series more magical elements are introduced, and the magic-focused characters get tangled together more with the other plotlines, but honestly that has only just begun.
I think it's fair to say that asoiaf is a series that transitions from low to high fantasy as it goes on.

>>98129824
>People think that grim, bleak, or """grounded""" is the same thing as low fantasy
People don't "think" that. They use the phrase to refer to that. Which means that the phrase means that, in the context of TTRPGs.

>>98129434
>in LOTR, God literally sang the world into existence, angels walk among us and wear funny hats, and the entire plot revolves around a magic ring that can do whatever the plot demands
Yah, but by the time of LotR, magic is pretty dang rare. Its just that we have front row seats to the most magical parts left of the earth. The three last remaining known wizards (one of which just says hi and fucks off), a few magical gifts from Elves, The one ring, the palantirs, the ring wraiths, and sauran. I think the books cover some of the last magics in middle earth of the time, if you vere even slightly from the plot, there is diddly.

>>98129824
This is the third meaning. The other two (our world vs fictional one, low vs high presence of magic) have already been discussed, but this one is also becoming more and more prevalent.
Though I would argue that warhammer fantasy is the opposite of "grounded" anyway and doesn't even fit this third definition. Gritty maybe, but grounded? Lmfao.

>>98129751
>only people with no idea of what high or low fantasy mean
Majority of the people who use them, then
I'm not it's good or bad, just that it is what it is

>>98129839
Correct. When people are using "low fantasy" in the sense you're referring to, it means "less fantastical elements than found in something else." It's a relational usage of the words. And words can have multiple meanings. Which is why anon is right about what the "low fantasy" genre is. But wrong about what other people mean, when they use "low fantasy" in other senses than to refer to the niche genre delineations of a buncha popular fiction dorks. The notion that "well genre dorks got there first, so 'low fantasy' only ever refers to genres reeee" is just internet sperging that fundamentally misunderstands how language functions, at a really basic level.

>>98129424
You'd be surprised how vital and common oar power still was in the age of sail.

>>98129570
Hyborean age stuff crops up in REH's "present-day" stories like The Huanter of the Ring and Skull Face, for example

>>98129391
Has to do with wizard, magic item, and magical phenomenon population/importance density.

Neither PotC nor LotR are low fantasy.

>>98129605
LotR is antediluvian earth so that definition would be wrong out of the box.

>>98129870
already mentioned and addressed within the post

>>98129865
I mean, either one is lower fantasy than, let's say, modern D&D as 1st level characters in Waterdeep. Where half the players are from the outer planes, and the other half have infinite uses of cantrip spells. Which is what people mostly mean when they say "low fantasy" in games: it has relationally fewer fantastical elements than modern D&D. They mean that because modern D&D is the TTRPG default against which most things are compared, simply because it's the biggest. Which makes it a good yard-stick against which to measure things, because it's a point of reference that everyone who plays TTRPGs shares in common. Even if you hate D&D and have never once played it, you prolly know enough about it that if I say something has "more" or "less" of X than D&D does, you've got a decent sense of what I mean. Which makes it a useful tool of comparison.

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>>98129842
>I would argue that warhammer fantasy is the opposite of "grounded" anyway and doesn't even fit this third definition. Gritty maybe, but grounded?
Certainly not in terms of the Wargame, but I could certainly see an argument to be made for the roleplay system, whose most well-known adventures are about investigating Tax reforms since the high judges are being blackmailed by Chaos Cultists, most PCs are going to peasants, Rat Catchers, and university students than the generally typical Fighters, wizards, priests(though all those options exist in the system)
If nothing else, the writers of the system intended for it to be "low Fantasy" or "grubby Fantasy" to use their words.

>>98129889
Was it in 2e WHFRG where you rolled classes? I haven't played it in almost three decades, but I remember rolling through a big book of like 100 classes and you got wacky-ass results exactly like "rat catcher." That was fun. Characters would die and we'd roll up new ones all the time.

>>98129898
I think the rolling of classes went all the way back to first edition

>>98129901
Mighta been. I'm old. I wanted to type "two decades" and realized that'd be 2006, way after I last played it.

>>98129905
Yeah, you would have been playing first edition then, since second edition only came out in like 2005

>>98129898
Rolling is the default in 2e but not mandatory.

>>98129873
Disingenuously dismissing the criticism is not addressing it.

>>98129889
Fair enough, I was mostly going off whfb, not the rpg as I'm not very familiar with it.
are you the same guy from the /twg/ thread discussing this a few days ago?

>>98129916
its not a criticism, its a cheap gotcha that was pre-emptively nipped in the bud
the secondary worlds literary importance is that characters have totally different motivations and arcs compared to someone from our world
there is no going back, the threat has to be made important to the people living in the secondary world and not because it prevents someone from returning to the primary world

when they wrote the definition of high fantasy for the encylopedia of fantasy, they didnt just forget about the existence of the red book
and they used tolkiens own words of the secondary and primary words to craft their definition
LOTR being pre-historic earth makes it about as low fantasy as star wars is for being in a different galaxy from us (read: it isnt)

>>98129928
>spoiler
yeah

>>98129936
Small world

>>98129957
yep, just shows how small 4chan is getting

>>98129933
It's a category that is wrong on its face. There is no need to engage further with something so foolish.

>>98129842
>I keep repeating it, so thats the new meaning!

That's fucking retarded.

>>98130052
New could mean in the last 15 years or so, but even then, the High vs low fantasy dichotomy itself is maybe only 50 years old at most

>>98129391
It means world-building equal to a Disney fairy tale movie

>>98129539
ok, but Mordor is on Earth and Oz isn’t. And the fact that the Lord of the Rings takes place within a larger “myth for britain” is, in fact, important to the plot on every level (even though the plot is largely about touring a fantasy world). If you’re actually talking about the worlds, then Oz is high fantasy and Mordor is low fantasy, and if you’re talking about plot then they’re both high fantasy. The difference between where Dorothy comes from and where Pippin comes from is just a matter of framing device.

>>98130052
I'm not saying I agree with it, but objectively that's how some people make the distinction.

>>98129850
This.

>>98129582
You killing yourself when?

>>98130312
I dunno... you got any plans, like, Tuesday?

>>98129391
>What the hell is "low fantasy"?
A purely theoretical myth, no example series exists. Only isolated regional pockets and time periods within a greater setting.

Real life officially has no magic and even it's not low fantasy.

>>98129580
>RPG's are
You mean RPGs

>>98130135
Oz is in Earth, it is an important plot point, the characters themselves did read the books.

You guys do realize that it's something Lloyd Alexander wrote about and defined, right?

If you don't like you can just not use it.

>>98131052
>Lloyd Alexander
who?

>>98131055
BLACK CAULDRON, YOU UNCULTURED SWINE

>>98131096
Did he consider his own work low or high fantasy?
since his interpretation of Wales wasn't very historically accurate

>>98131102
historically inaccurate*

>>98131102
No, he decidedly considered his own work, as well as those of Lewis, Tolkien, Dunsany, Eddison, Cabell, and White, to be High Fantasy.

https://www.hbook.com/story/high-fantasy-and-heroic-romance

>>98131134
Where did he put people like Howard and Smith?

>>98131134

Yeah, it's not particulary exoteric knowledge. Hell, I think tvtropes talks about it in the page for high fantasy.

Hint for the "not gonna read it" crowd: it's not about "historical accuracy" or "actually about Earth long ago".

>>98131149

You should guess from the examples. Smith is arguably the one that wrote more full-fledged low fantasy, but the Hyborian Age and, say, Zothique are clearly high fantasy.

>>98131171
Howard wrote plenty of fantasy stories set in historical periods, though like Solomon Kane or his El Borak stories

>>98129391
Low fantasy: our world. Think Call of Chtulu, Harry Potter, capeslop, the Indian in the cupboard, or the Oddessey.
High fantasy: separate world. Think Narnia, lotr(our own world but so far back it doesn't count), Warhammer Fantasy, or Runequest.

Ah, that's an easy one: can you roll around in a self-propelled one-man chariot? Or not?

>>98131176

I did talk about the hyborian age and not REH for a reason, anon.

That being said I might venture to add that in many of his tales the dycothomy is pretty much unuseful. Take The Black Stranger, which was actually rewritten as an our world tale of pirates without much of a fuss.

I would claim that the most typical "high fantasy", as exemplified by Tolkien, tends to be about exploring the milieu - as in, the reader wants very much to feel there in those places that can't be real, whereas in low fantasy the discovery of a "new place" is not the focus.
(tough this is not absolute, of course. HP is a borderline or even mixed example, but you can see that people would like Hogwarts to be real)

Conan himself is not particulary strong in looking for milieu. I mean, yes, he DOES end up in quite fantastical locations, and the kingdoms are (often) interesting by themselves, but it's not much of the focus. Kull might be more, actually.

>>98131382
The Hyborian Age was really only created as Howard couldn't really do any more historical research from his small library in rural Texas, so just a semi-historical sandbox to set his adventures in.
The Thurian age of King Kull is much more fantastical

>>98131415

At the same time I think Conan stories have some really nice locations. Oddly enough I think the urban ones shine more - the dungeon in The Scarlet Citadel is amazing.

>>98131197
>High fantasy
>lotr(our own world but so far back it doesn't count)
The Hyborian Age is far back in time and no one in their right mind is calling it anything other than low fantasy. Your definition is unworkable.

>>98129449
>yes I know lotr technically takes places in the distant past of our world but you would never know that if tolkien didn't tell us in some random letter or whatever so it still counts imo

Lorelet.

On the very first pages of his books Tolkien explicitly says hobbits are relatives of humans who are still living in the real world and that the stories are set in this real world's past.

>I suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they have become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us.
>helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.


>Further information will also be found in the selection from the Red Book of Westmarch that has already been published, under the title of The Hobbit.
>Hobbits are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today
>Even in ancient days they were, as a rule, shy of ‘the Big Folk’, as they call us, and now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find.
>It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.
>the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World

>>98129605
You cited two (2) things as evidence that ASOIAF isn't low fantasy. Does that mean that a low fantasy setting (using that definition) can contain but a single magical thing across the whole setting? Do you see what a stupid definition that would be?

I know there are more than those two things that are magic in ASOIAF. But it's still low fantasy because magic is not part of daily life and there are people who would even deny its existence. There are people like maesters who explore the intersection of science and magic. Dragons are close to animals in it. And the whole tale is supposed to be set during an era when magical forcing are waxing.

>>98132668
>You cited two (2) things as evidence that ASOIAF isn't low fantasy.
two things which are heavily focused on and are extremely plot relevant

>>98129391
>>98129395
>>98129435
It means a fantasy setting but magic is rare and nor as powerful in high fantasy settings.

>>98129395
Fpbp

Is the magic weak? Is it taking place in another world entirely?
You can have a completely distinct and separate fantasy world that has pathetic amounts of magic/fantasy.

>>98132749
which, as mentioned repeatedly, is not a uniformly or universally accepted definition
and there is no such definition
other terms such as urban fantasy, swords and sorcery, and dark fantasy are accepted with relatively understood definitions but not low fantasy

low fantasy is just a terrible definition because almost all of its use cases are already taken
high fantasy is generally accepted to mean "secondary world only", so when people say "we have a primary world" thats covered by portal fantasy or urban fantasy
if we mean a world thats bereft of the "epic and heroic" part of fantasy, then thats dark fantasy
you cant really define it as simply the presence or absence of magic, because the poster boy for high fantasy, LOTR, has relatively restrained use of magic

The Blade Itself

Saying high fantasy takes place in another world or reality is ironic when magic in the real world (low fantasy) requires more handwaving of physics, and as such comes across as a lot more absurd, whereas high fantasy can be argued as self contained, and is a convenient way to avoid the rules of our own universe. But because real-world science is so strict, adding magic to our reality (low fantasy) inherently demands more suspension of disbelief, compared to high fantasy, which could be a dream simulation for all we know.

>>98132774
The real world is also much more complex and much more implicational than any fictional world that any author could ever come up with.

>>98129391
It's make believe for dwarfs.

>>98132668
You're talking to our resident autist that thinks that all fiction is fantasy, and that even one speculative or fictional technology in a sci-fi work turns it into fantasy.

He spergs out regularly.

>>98132763
>the poster boy for high fantasy, LOTR
Wrong.

>>98132860
>You're talking to our resident autist that thinks that all fiction is fantasy,
George R R Martin also thinks this. He sees science fiction as another form of fantasy. He’s not wrong. Unless you think of some very specific flavor of fiction, the word fantasy can refer to a more absurd level of fiction. But not so absurd. Having an affair is a fantasy.

Don’t know why people can’t be liberal with words. This is precisely semantics.

>>98129391
Magic isn't something you can use in combat. You might be able to use magical items, or maybe a ritual at best. However, you won't have wizards shooting fireballs outside of their lair or via a item and all.

>>98132870

right
tolkiens own words of secondary and primary words are the basis for classification of high fantasy to begin with
no one will seriously argue that LOTR is not high fantasy, no one actually uses the framing device of the red book as a strike against it being a secondary world

>>98132864
>He sees science fiction as another form of fantasy. He’s not wrong.
very early copies of LOTR were originally stocked in the sci-fi section because the closest thing at the time to it were more sci-fi leaning stories like princess of mars

fantasy had to be separated from sci-fi because of LOTR and narnia establishing it as uniquely different

— “I think that for science fiction, fantasy, and even horror to some extent, the differences are skin-deep. I know there are elements in the field, particularly in science fiction, who feel that the differences are very profound, but I do not agree with that analysis. I think for me it is a matter of the furnishings. An elf or an alien may in some ways fulfill the same function, as a literary trope. It’s almost a matter of flavor. The ice cream can be chocolate or it can be strawberry, but it’s still ice cream.”

George R R Martin

And he’s right. Vulcans are just space elves. I’d you want not!wizards in sci-fi just throw in a sufficiently mad scientist or some wise alien sage from the stars.

>>98132881
You can actually interpret Lord of the Rings using science-fiction logic. The entire setting is running under a Prime Directive, after a more involved attempt ended in catastrophe. The elves are cases of sufficiently advanced aliens (alien to men, not the world) who don’t see themselves as magical. Gandalf is (actually alien to the world) the equivalent of a learned alien sent down to act the part of a guiding sage.

Similar to the Dark Crystal. Learned and enlightened (if flawed) psychic aliens landed and charmed the native “goddess” with their superior knowledge of the stars, and then took the world’s crystal for their own. The Skeksis (totally based on the occult obsessed aging nobility) and the urRu (Mystics, “natural wizards”, who repeat rituals) are split-descendants of these beings. All the turmoils of the world sourced to them. Aliens.

why do people want to make low-fantasy a thing anyways?
if there are people from earth: portal fantasy
if it lacks traditional heroic spirit or epicness: dark fantasy or swords and sorcery
all definitions that can be considered opposite to high fantasy already have words that work just fine

>>98129408
/thread

>>98132665
Nerd

>>98132763
>is not a uniformly or universally accepted definition
Because people are stupid. I'm right, they're wrong.

>>98132864
Wrong.
>>98132881
>>98132898
It's not about magic. I understand that the assumption is low fantasy=less magic, so high fantasy=big magic, but it's not a dichotomy. High fantasy is about motive, not magic. LOTR is high fantasy because Frodo destroys the ring for the sake of the world, not just himself. The opposite of high fantasy is sword & sorcery, Conan doesn't kill Thulsa Doom to stop the cult of Set, he does it because he has personal beef, stopping the cult is a side effect, not the goal.

>>98133174
Your idea that fantasy is about motive rather than magic is your retarded headcanon that you just invented.
>LOTR is high fantasy because Frodo destroys the ring for the sake of the world, not just himself.
LOTR has lower levels of magic and is more technologically primitive than the Hyborian age. It is lower fantasy than Conan.
>Conan doesn't kill Thulsa Doom to stop the cult of Set, he does it because he has personal beef, stopping the cult is a side effect, not the goal.
Confirmed for having never read the Conan stories. Conan movies aren't canon.

>>98129889
Calling Warhammer low fantasy is the most ridiculous thing ever

>>98130375
I mean FRP games

>>98133174
>>98133182
I avoid this issue as it is a non topic/argument to me, since it relies on one being pedantic.

Listen. Motive does play a part, but magic and fantasy are synonymous. If it is fantastical enough, it is high fantasy. You don’t even need these words explicitly, either. Science is fantastical and magical enough as it is. Discovering a new alien species is a magical sensation. Science fiction is more fantasy than fantasy, once you take one look at whimsical shows like Futurama (or Rick and Morty if you want to be get cringe about it). The sheer alienness and variety and exoticism of it all. What is magic if not the alien?

Magic/fantasy really is just a matter of exposure and perception. Enchantment. Wonder and mystery. One would be an idiot to pretend that the 21st century world wouldn’t look practically Atlantean to someone from the past.

Tolkien’s elves aren’t enchanted by their own works. They don’t see themselves as magical, only men and hobbits do. The elves look to the wizards the same way men and hobbits look to the elves. It’s all a bar. Higher, lower or sideways.

>>98133182
>LOTR has lower levels of magic and is more technologically primitive than the Hyborian age. It is lower fantasy than Conan.
I don’t remember there being villages like Bree in Conan. Are there 18th/19th century amenities in Hyperborea like in the Shire? Has the printing press been invented by Stygians?

Answer me.

>>98133232
If the definition of Low Fantasy is low stakes(which most WFRP adventures are), Low amount of active magic, Low Culture(thieves, whores, beggars, etc.) then yeah, WFRP probably counts as low fantasy.

>>98133272
The words ‘low’ and ‘fantasy’ are far too ubiquitous to be used sincerely in such a way, lmao. No wonder this h always been such an autistic topic for morons who can’t into semantics. There are only so many ways to interpret something so bloody simple. You KNOW what they are saying even if it’s not your preferred understanding of the term.

You shitters just want to argue. People like >>98132774 also use basic logic that pushes your shit in. Every time. But of course hard logic is detested here. “It’s fantasy reee turn off your brain”. No.

>>98133272
>If the definition of Low Fantasy is low stakes
New random definition unlocked

>>98129391
a fantasy story that takes place on Earth
not to be confused with low magic

>>98133324
Why not just use genre terms like Historical Fantasy or Urban fantasy then?

>>98129391
High fantasy: magic is wonderous and scarce making it special.
Low fantasy: magic is common and used like a tool.
It's the difference between fantastic elements versus inclusion of the mundane.

>>98133269
>I don’t remember there being villages like Bree in Conan.
Pretty much all of the Hyborian Kingdoms are vaguely medieval and renaissance so yeah, there are villages like Bree in Conan.
>Are there 18th/19th century amenities in Hyperborea like in the Shire? Has the printing press been invented by Stygians?
You are pointing to the shire which is the odd one out and ignoring 90% of middle earth which is explicitely migration era/dark ages. Armor is limited to mail, scale and limb pieces like greaves and vambraces. swords are single handed. shields are round viking shields.
>Answer me.
Read a book for once in your life.

>>98132914
This, absolutely. That's my point: the term low fantasy has been diluted by discussions like the one happening right now that it's fucking pointless to use it. Thematically and stylistically, GoT, Conan and the Witcher have barely anything in common, any terminology that would group those three as the same thing is fucking pointless.

Most of the time when people are talking about """"low fantasy""" they actually mean Dark Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery, or a low magic setting or system.

>>98129391
it's when you're thinking about nailing a coworker just because they walk around in leggings

>>98133968
But "Sword and Sorcery" stories like Conan, Elric, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser have more magic in them than something like the Lord of the Rings.
Do people not read books anymore?

>>98133999
>But "Sword and Sorcery" stories like Conan, Elric, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser have more magic in them than something like the Lord of the Rings.
Yes. That's my fucking point, trying to group them together is stupid. What point do you think you're trying to make?

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>>98133968
Conan and Wticher have at least some stuff in common, it's fair to call the Wtichers short stories Sword and Sorcery stories maybe not the full novels though
Geralts' dad is even meant to be a Conan expy

>>98134014
The short stories are maybe structurally similar (lone wolf hero wanders into situation and solved problem) but the witcher stories have far more of a twisted fairly tale vibe than the Conan stories do. I'll grant you that they are closed together than something like Warhammer or GoT, but I would never call even the short stories sword and sorcery.

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>>98129391
The same retards who act like sticklers over "hard and soft scifi" needed a fantasy equivalent so they could be insufferable and reductive no matter what media they're talking about.

>>98133451
Lol you got fucked in the ass and you don’t know how to respond LOL.

>>98133451
Bree isn’t medieval or Renaissance it’s more like the 18th century lol

>>98133269
>>98133451
Reminder that the idea of linear progression is complete fiction. The development of many technologies have happened out of sync throughout the world's history.

>>98129408
What's this moron talking about. The only actual definition of either term is:
>high fantasy is a fictional world
>low fantasy is fiction in our world
It's no more or less shallow than that.

It's not supposed to be any more or less than that, there is no need for it to mean more than that, people trying to make either term mean more or less than that are being pretentious so they can have weird opinions about some fantasy fiction they personally hate and therefore need to put in the "bad stuff" or "not real fantasy" box they're trying to paint one of the terms to be.

They are not important, deep, or meaningful terms. They're just for academic use but have been butchered so much there's no point even bothering with them.

>>98134199
>>98134206
Secondary SEETHING

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>>98129391
Unrealistic world where any magic present is difficult, dangeorus, and limited in vast ways.

Conan
Solomon Kane
Mistborn
Red Sonja
Willow
The Shannara series

Most sword and sorcery style situations are like this. Often the main characters are either unable to access magic or rare magic users in a place where magic is exceedingly uncommon. Commoners fear and distrust magic, if they ever see any at all. Weird monsters are rare, legendary, and exceedingly difficult to kill if they can be killed at all.

High fantasy is where magic is commonplace and often easily accomplished for those who can use it, and the population is usually aware of it on a large scale.
Lord of the Rings
Chronicles of Amber
Witchworld
The Windrose Chronicles
The Deryni series
The Belgariad series

Gods, ancient magic users, magic items, all play large parts in such tales, without being isolated to the antagonists or difficult to accomplish for the heroes. Strange, powerful monsters are common, if not everywhere. Most TTRPGs are High Fantasy by default.

>>98134588
Sounds like you're doing the thing people do where they heard the term "hard scifi" and assumed high fantasy and low fantasy were the same thing.

It's not about the commonality of magic in the setting.

>>98134588
>High fantasy is where magic is commonplace and often easily accomplished for those who can use it, and the population is usually aware of it on a large scale.
>Lord of the Rings
Confirmed for being a secondary who has never read Lord of the Rings.
Why the fuck do secondaries spout so much shit?

>>98134588
>The Shannara series
This should be in the high fantasy section
It's a rather important series due to Del Ray using this as a basis for making junky pop fantasy going into the 80s

>>98134588
>Mistborn
>Weird post apocalypse magic Marvel superhero nonsense.
>Low fantasy

Gotta be trollin'

>>98134616
Hard scifi isn't about the commonality of science in the setting

>>98134971
You like using that word, I can tell. I bet you feel really proud of yourself.

>>98129391
mudcore, diarrheacore, lolcallordcore

>>98135262
The secondary cries out as he strikes you.

>>98132763
LOTR is anything but high fantasy. All the magic is dying out and the age of man is around the corner. That's why the elves are fucking off to their island. The defeat of Sauron and the destruction of the one ring is the end of magic in the world.

>>98135171
Never said they did.

>>98135643
>high fantasy is when there's a lot of magic
it's not about how much magic is in the setting. High and low fantasy aren't about how fucking loud your magic detection geiger counter is ticking.

IT's about the core nature of the fantasy setting itself. And LoTR is the most high fantasy, the standard for the term. Google what it actually means if you don't get why.

>>98133269
>Hyperborea
Hyperborea is the far north. Hyboria is derived from that word.

>>98129391
>What the hell is "low fantasy"?
The modern version is MISERY PORN MUDCORE like ASOIAF

>>98129571
>everything in conan is a fun house mirror of actual history
more like "actual history" is a funhouse version of how shit AXCHUALLY went down.

>>98136376
So does Hyboria have Victorian era style amenities?

>>98136587

Kinda

>Murilo realized that Conan supposed the mirror to be a window through which they were looking.

“He does not see us,” answered the priest. “We are looking into the chamber above us. That door that Thak is guarding is the one at the head of these stairs. It is simply an arrangement of mirrors. Do you see those mirrors on the walls? They transmit the reflection of the room into these tubes, down which other mirrors carry it to reflect it at last on an enlarged scale in this great mirror.”

Murilo realized that the priest must be centuries ahead of his generation, to perfect such an invention; but Conan put it down to witchcraft and troubled his head no more about it.

>>98129391
low fantasy is essentially a world where fantastic elements exist but are treated as an unreliable and unconquerable piece of the setting. you can have magical feats and wondrous phenomena and creatures but you can't rely on it cheaply or easily and you can't easily replace it or work around it if something goes wrong. it's magic struggle porn essentially

>>98134971
>>98134588
yeah magic isn't accessible in lord of the rings. some creatures and peoples have an inherent magic to them but actual magical practice is rare in the extreme, the stuff of legends. the hobbits have had more exposure to gandalf than any race on middle earth and the vast majority of them think he's a firework technician. even when gandalf, a demigod in mortal form, does use magic it is very singular and limited: burning pinecones; moth to eagle summoning; blazing repulsive light; it's all rare and he doesn't do it often. if he and the other wizards were out here casting like dnd wizards mordor would be a smudge before the hobbits left bree. the dwarves are so magically ound to the earth they struggle to find value anywhere else, and even they are inferior craftsmen to the elves because the elves were predestined to be the most blessed and favored of all mortals, though even with all these blessings elven magic is mostly craft and subtle sorcery. the wonders of the world are in a constant state of diminishment almost directly because their presence endangers the world and so must leave the world or be destroyed; the only reason the elves didn't leave middle earth for valinor entirely was because sauron and saruman were destroyed, the ring wraiths and shelob were destroyed, the orcs and southerlings had the backs of their military annihilated, and all other prominent dangers excised possibly for all time

>>98136348
You're fucking retarded if you actually think this. At best, high fantasy can be said to take place in a fictional world that isn't analogous to our own. Low fantasy is fantasy with elements and a setting similar to our world. For example, Middle Earth is basically Europe with a few bits of magic here and there. Really the most the average person sees is a glowy sword. Which makes sense, because Tolkein took inspiration from Arthurian legend and pagan folklore for Middle Earth. To contrast that, a high fantasy world would be something similar to the Discworld series of books. The world is a flat disc that drifts through space on the backs of 4 giant elephants standing on a massive sea turtle. Wizards are a common profession and magic is a fact of life. Hell, the gods even walk the earth and egg the houses of atheists. And death is a pretty chill dude. The discworld is wildly different to our own, which makes it high fantasy. Another great example would be the chronicles of Narnia. Talking animals and fantasy creatures and a magic witch that put a spell on the world are all signs that you're dealing with high fantasy.

Of course, if you really want to be a pendant, you can just say that there is no consensus on these terms and no official body governs their usage.

>>98132764
Logen only briefly talks to magic spirits. But mostly he’s a smart person who’s been in many fights. The archer woman is magic in how good she is at shooting arrows. Bayaz is magic. But these are the most magic people in the setting being brought together because most people are just turdy renaissance era commoners

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>>98129391

>>98138057
>just turdy renaissance era commoners
who somehow become Victorian commoners in the sequel series, which is only set 30 years after First Law ended

>>98129408
This is a good post.

>>98133232
most of warhammer fantasy RP is decidedly low fantasy
you're playing dung collectors and cobblers and crippled veterans who are dealing with local problems in small towns or slums
the walled roadhouse could be sieged by bandits as easily as by beastmen when the roadwarden stops in and the average town has maybe 4 structures with more than one floor
yeah middenheim has a cannon larger than a house loaded by giants and magic colleges but you're probably not in middenheim, you're in fuckwit pass where the biggest problem that isn't invading bretonnians is the occasional group of goblins raiding the outlying farms

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>>98129747
Bruder was

>>98138492
The big campaign pretty immediately puts against the machinations of a giant chaos conspiracy. Even the intro adventure in the 2e book involves witches and shit. Your argument is basically "if your gm takes out all the stuff that makes warhammer, Warhammer, than it's totally a low fantasy setting!"

It's a world where the forests are full of beast men, orcs and trolls and shit, magic is real, there are a pantheon of gods that routinely talk to people, the world is littered with space alien magitech, and there is a giant exploded Stargate in the North Pole that's spewing out super hell. It doesn't matter what stupid fucking definition of """"low fantasy"""" you're using, warhammer ain't it, chief.