Why does everyone say flying characters in D&Dlike games are overpowered? Literally all you have to do is give the enemies a crossbow. The only way a flying PC can be overpowered is if the GM is a fucking retard who does every single encounter in an open-air environment with absolutely no obstacles or obstructions and the enemies only have melee options.
Ah, yes, the chasm that was supposed to force the PCs to find another way across. I'll equip it with a crossbow.
>>98133838Simpler way is to not let flying PCs hover in space. If you're flying, you're moving, and that taxes action economy.>>98133900So don't use chasms as your blocking terrain in a party full of fliers. If you've only got one or two, even if they bring ropes across, crossing that gap is not trivial.Not like there isn't magic to do this, anyway.
>>98133900>flying PCs are overpowered because they can easily overcome ONE (1) terrain obstaclelol. lmao even
>>98133838If you have hostile crossbowmen everywhere to shoot the flying guy, you have hostile crossbowmen everywhere to shoot the other guys, making them pay for the flying guy's crimes.Besides, D&D is more than just a combat wargames. Having a guy who can ignore an entire axis of space heavily limits your options for puzzles and exploration. Sure, you CAN get around it in ways, but why do that when you can solve the issue much more easily simply by asking the players not to take the problem option?
>>98133931He can't ignore it, though, unless you make him a perfect helicopter that ignores the terrain hazards of the air.
>>98133931>party can't handle a few guys with crossbowsAre your players really that braindead?>GM can't handle saying "the dungeon hallway is too narrow for you to spread your wings"Are you really that braindead?
>>98133915>So don't use chasms as your blocking terrain in a party full of fliers. If you've only got one or two, even if they bring ropes across, crossing that gap is not trivialLmao dude if you could fly making a basic rope bridge across practically any gap would be stupidly fast and trival
>>98133900>one guy passes the casm>the rest of the party cantso now what?
>>98133900There are flying monsters in the chasm that fire high-velocity bone spikes.Holy fuck that was difficult to think of.
The problem with flyers is suddenly every encounter and location then needs to be built with them in mind to make it fun for everyone.Stuff like having a tower thats needs scaling is going to to have to be an underground or anti-flying aura thing to not trivialize for instance.I will say flying as an issue is a bit overblown as most system have a spell that makes you fly. (Yhough admittedly Im sure a person playing a flying race is more likely to try to make flying a solution to everything)
>>98134028its not that big of an issue if you keep in mind that only 1 person can fly and all the others cant. Alright, you got a tower. One guy got inside. Is this one guy suddenly gonna fight the 5 dudes + miniboss all on his own? Do all the skill checks alone, despite the other party members being far better at them?
>>98134080Secure a rope ladder to a point at top of tower and now everyone climbs up.
>>98134028As if you don't already build encounters designed around your PCs and their abilities anyway.>>98134127The monsters can see (or otherwise access) the ladder and cut it while they climb. Alternatively, they have crossbows. Or, since they start at the top where the hypothetical boss is, the boss is able to call in ALL the reinforcements from below. Use your brain.
>>98134127>the party uses their abilities and items to accomplish their goalsWhat a disaster
>>98133971Do you mean just four ropes? Because crossing that shit is going to be harrowing. Especially when the local wildlife (annoying birds) show up to peck you.If you mean a full-on bridge, do you have the craft knowledge for that? No? Then you can try, and I'll go ahead and make a secret roll whether or not you did it right, or if it collapses and dumps your ass down the chasm.
>>98134008Have you literally never heard of a noncombat encounter?
>>98133931Do you guys seriously not regularly include ranged asswipes in your encounters?
>>98134028>Stuff like having a tower thats needs scaling is going to to have to be an underground or anti-flying aura thing to not trivialize for instance.>anti-flying auraYou mean "wind?"
>>98134215Yeah, and the more abilities they have, the more time and effort it takes to make a worthwhile encounter.
>the ability to walk through walls isn't overpowered because you can just make it so that all walls are actually two layers with a bottomless pit in-between them>now if he tries to walk through walls, he falls to his deathYes, a GM CAN work around anything the players have. "Overpowered" does not mean "insurmountable", it means that the number of problems trivialized by a character option is disproportionately large when compared to other available options. And, when your solutions are>adjust every subsequent encounter to counter that specific ability>frequently declare that the specific ability doesn't work or is inaccessible in a given scenariothen you're looking at an ability that's warping the game around it.
>>98134327This is going to be happening anyway as they level up and flying is seriously not THAT hard to build/plan around compared to some of the higher level abilities you can get in D&D and it's clonesBesides, sometimes it's fun to let your players use their abilities to get around something or "win" a situation. IMO there should always be a fair few opportunities for them to take advantage of their abilities>>98134340>he thinks flying is the same power level as walking through wallsNogames
>>98134351>doesn’t understand analogyNobrains
>>98134127great, the party used teamwork and their unique skills to tackle a problem!Now everyone who tries to climb the rope must make an athletics check to not fall down and a stealth check to not be detected.Manage to pull all that off? Congrats, you climbed the tower undetected!
>>98134340Yeah I dont get what specifically about flying people cant grasp this concept for.Semi-related but a flying race should radically change a setting. Like you should be thinking why isnt every race subservient to them levels of change. The ammount if things irl that having decent flying would.change is immense. Think about scaling a mountian and building a fort atop it without needing to create anyway up and down the side. The ability to project power, transfer goods, construct anything. It'd all be radically changed. (Yes magic is world altering in a similar way, but typically magic users are more rare than 100% of a species)
>>98133838Flying is op IRL too. Literally the entirety of modern warfare revolves around flying. Drones, airplanes, anti-air, ballistic missiles, aircraft carriers, etc.Ground units are only for holding ground. The majority of combat casaulties in americas wars and in the ukraine-russia war comes from air combat (aircraft and drones, respectively).Who would have guessed that being able to move in 3 dimensions in a 3 dimensional world would be so useful.
>>98134550Yeah I dont think people really understand just how prevalent bombing tactics would be in a setting with a flying race. World building-wise its hard to hit Arial moving targets so so some sort of flak alternative would need to be a thing to be a very effective counter. I suppose magic missile would be like THE spell a mage would want to know but how many cats could a mage do per day and how many mages would be in a place at once?Honestly the more autistic you get thinking about such a thing the more far reaching consequences could be. It just completely alters a world.
>>98133900Replace the chasm with a caved-in hallway or another obstacle that can't simply be flown over or has consequences for doing so (a river that emits toxic fumes)
>>98134532Thats actually a very good point. If we imagine magic is not society changing because there is like one lvl3 dnd mage for every 1000 people, and magical artifacts are incredibly rare and hard to make, then it is easy to understand how they cant affect society (like 50 mages per city is just not enough).But if an entire race of flying intelligent creatures existed, they would dominate combat with just bows and arrows. They dont need to secure supply routes, they can just fly over any dangers, allowing them to avoid armies forever, it is impossible to force them into battle except by attacking their homes, which is also very difficult as they can build their homes in physically unreachable areas in mountains making them basically immune to land invasions. Gravity works in their favour always, their arrows become twice as fast as they reach their target while the ones on the arrows flying against them lose most of their power. They would be the ultimate warring race. I guess elves and dwarves would be able to maintain their place as elves are low in number but highly capable and good at defending their lands, and dwarves live underground, making flight irrelevant.However, Orcs, Humans, and all other land races WILL bow to their heavenly masters or be destroyed.
>>98134283Ranged asswipes are not instant death to PCs.
>>98134951If the fumes are toxic enough that you couldn’t just glide over while holding your breath, you’d be out for the count just walking up to the fucking thing.
>>98135357The thing is they would be very strong versus an elf, mobile aerial targets have not just a huge mobility advantage but a huge stealth advantage. Id say arrows would be a minor concern next to a flyer dropping a fire based alchemical solution. Better have a tile roof >Oh yeah everyone just has someone watching the skies!That'd be a very boring job and prone to lapses in paying attention. Not to mention they could just fly with the sun to their back a pretty common way irl of aerial targets to obscure themselves some.Dwarves would be very strong vs a flier though but really why would a flyer want to own underground stuff where their natural abilities dont matter?
>>98135357Elves live in dense forests, can practice guerilla tactics, and have random magic. The elves would be forced further into the woods at each step fighting to maintain their way of life forced to dedicate themselves further to the art of war and connection with the wilderness.Orcs are too savage to fully unite under one banner. Though tribes have been enslaved the spark of Gruumsh remains deep inside their bones...Goliaths were forced upward into the coldest most isolated mountains. The cold too much to bear for those only clad in feathers.Halflings are literally too useless to enslave.But everyone else is probably doomed. What are these heavenly masters like?
>>98135357>But if an entire race of flying intelligent creatures existed, they would dominate combat with just bows and arrows.Only if they can shoot while flying. Most flying races do not have the ability to levitate nor hover. Archery in flight should be incredibly inaccurate even more so than mounted archery is compared to dismounted archery.
>>98134279Sounds boring
>>98135805its "magical" fumes [winks at you]
>>98133838This, D&Drones would not survive a DBZ game in something like DBU or any supers system lmao
>>98136902>>98136853My buddies and I pick up a alchemist fire and drop it on you and your village doing multiple runs at all times of day and night
>>98134340>>98134457It's objectively not the same thing. I regularly run and play a system where anyone at any point can just have flight, but guess what, so can their enemies. Christ you faggots need to play something other than D&D or Pathfinder.
>>98137309The viability of alchemist fire runs depend on the climate of the forest. Also I assumed Elven infrastructure is built into the forest providing some measure of camouflage.
>>98133838To be fair, in editions before 5e it WAS overpowered at low levels. Now in 5e power levels are so bullshit that the PCs are practically invincible so who even gives a fuck. 1st level Astral Elves can teleport at will? Sure who gives a shit any more.
I think it's because low level d&d isn't designed for it.It has literally never been a problem in any other system I have ever played. Just low level d&d. That is the only place where all the bitching comes from.It isn't even a issue in mid level play in d&d.It's retarded moaning from people who can be safely ignored. Any gm who thinks flying PCs are a issue is a noob who refuses to learn how to not be retarded. Don't play with such idiots.
>>98137365It doesn't depend on shit.
>>98136902You can literally just grab a bag of rocks and scatter them over people's heads and they'll die.
>>98137671Any rocks that would actually do a significant amount of damage would weight enough to impede a flier's ability to fly and are liable to be far less damaging than you imagine.
>>98137997Wrong. Get the fuck back to school you drooling retard.
>>98133838Do you think flight is just some sort of video game "cannot be hit by melee" flag?
>>98137998So you are one of those idiots who believe pennies dropped from skyscrappers are lethal? Go back to middle school and finish 7th grade you babbling idiot. Terminal velocity limits the how much damage dropped objects can do.
>>98137997>>98138019Is it challenging for you to remember to breathe lmao
I dunno about players bad damn flying monsters can be really annoying>be monk>manage to be able to use bow>me "well, having a ranged tool is useful, shurikens really have short range">reach 7th level>more flying monsters start appearing>me "I won't be useless">GM "so the monster has DR 10, your bow deals 0 in all attacks that aren't crit">me "maybe shuriken?">GM "you have -8 due distance"I even bought bolas, tangleroot arrows, etc but turns out they by rules don't do anything against flying monsters who are immune to trip (bolas trips) or pass the flying check on almost anything. Turns out you can't even jump and grapple/punch in mid air
I was playing a paladin in a campaign as we were fighting across a bridge the dm had a griffin grapple my guy and drop him off into the canyon killing him instantly.Bit harsh for one failed check but whatever
>>98138019Let me explain the opinion of the guy you are replying to.>penny small, penny only 3 grams>small stone is big, 300 grams fits in hand.>Penny from sky only hurts a lot. Small stone is 100 times stronger.>Can carry twenty small stones no problem (6kg, around 13lb). >fifty flying men dropping their bags on formations. A lot of ouch and die.>No need to hold backup ammo, just go get another bag.>no need worry about supplies, stone everywhere.>our army win, enemy army lose
>>98138031>>98138469nta but its incredible how smug you are while being completely wrong, arrogant fools are the most entertaining. Also, helmets exist.
>>98137311The thread is about D&D tardzilla.
>>98138485He just is trolling.The moment you pull out actual physics and math they will resort to name calling to get the last word in then take your eventual moving on as a victory.
>>98138671D&D + it's derivatives, which does include Pathfinder, but he has a good point anyway>nooo flying PCs are broken because I can't just use flying enemies or enemies with ranged weapons or say the dungeon hallway is too narrow
>>98138485Ok i dont get it anymore, what are you even doing? Are you saying that getting hit by a brick that fell from like 50m doesnt kill or even break bones?>>98138679Ok retard. Lets calculate it.Imagining the stone is a cube (for simplicity) half a kg (500grams), the density of stone is around 3 g/cm3. this means each side is 5.5cm, a small hand-filling stone.The cross sectional area would be 30cm2 at the widest point. This means the terminal velocity is 51.657 m/s or 115.6 mph.This means the momentum of said stone would be 25.83 kg.m/sA shotgun slug flies at around 500m/s at close range and weighs something like 28g.Thats a momentum of 14kg.m/sIn other words dropping hand-filling stones from the sky is more powerful than shooting someone with a shotgun slug at close range.Now admit you are a fucking retard and have the mental awareness of a child.
>>98134283A few dudes with ranged weapons is going to be a non starter against flying PCs, and giving a lot of ranged options means that your encounter design becomes trite and limiting. All because a PC can fly.Game legit becomes more fun for everyone by not including it in the first place.
>>98138931>A few dudes with ranged weapons is going to be a non starter against flying PCs, and giving a lot of ranged options means that your encounter design becomes trite and limitingHow so?
>>98133838Massed ranged weapons fuck the entire party just as hard. It's an incredibly OP strategy when combined with superior numbers (which the enemies will almost always have).
>>98138825You take a sizeable amount of low level threats out of the Monster Manual when players can fly. That doesn't mean all, but it does mean the mechanic is centralizing. That's generally considered an issue in game design.
The ultimate bane of any flying PC. Few GMs wield the intellectual prowess required to give an enemy a devastating ranged 1d6 attack without it being included in the stat block for them already.
>>98139409>That's generally considered an issue in game designIt absolutely is. Most low-level monsters in PF2e come pre-equipped with ranged options, and the only way flying is broken (at least in D&D 5e) is if you're running monsters pure RAW and don't do any tweaking for your game - but the fact you'd need to do any tweaking in the first place is kind of it's own problem. 5e is designed in such a way that expects most fights to be a melee slugfest.>>98139538It's also retarded that the designers didn't think it was worth giving most enemies ranged options, making it necessary for DMs to "fix" WotC's shitty game for them.
>>98133915I wish Keith Thompson would come back.
>>98139568Even in the cases where the designers gave enemies ranged options, they're still generally worse than melee options. An Ogre can throw javelins, but unless you're only flying 20 feet up, they have disadvantage, and either way it's still less on average than the Ogre hitting you with a greatclub, so flight still ends up being an advantage.Even better if the GM is an idiot who gave the Ogre a crossbow, because with 8 Dex it's going to miss even more and deal even less. And if it's a big enough siege crossbow to do more than the greatclub, then it's also the rest of the party that suffers.
>>98139568A game should be reasonably balanced with RAW. I know that's difficult for D&D players to grasp, but if the GM has to do extra work or invalidate their prep because of an option a player took, that's kind of a problem even if the work isn't much.
>>98139759PF2e has decent balancing between ranged and melee IMO, but that's only My experience. Probably worth noting I've also never run a single monster straight RAW, but that's more because they don't fit what I want than any balance issues.>>98140058>A game should be reasonably balanced with RAWI agree.
>>98134028>The problem with flyers is suddenly every encounter and location then needs to be built with them in mind to make it fun for everyone.Absolutely not, this is brainrot and just makes everything feel overly curated and artificial.
Normal locations that flying doesn't matter (them being able to do something just because they can fly doesn't matter)>forests>dungeons>temples>caves>underwater>buildings>towns>palacesDo you all play in the great plains setting exclusively?
>>98138469>>98138916>300 grams>now it's 500>just assume it's squareTalk about being a retard
>>98140453>they will resort to name calling to get the last word in
>>98133838I hate them because flying characters are always faggot races played by faggots. Mechanically, they are no different than any other characters. I just hate them for being faggots played by faggots.
>>98140674>everyone I talk to is the same personGet tested
>>98133838>just give every wolf a crossbow>all adventuring takes place indoors right>it's fine if a PC categorically is immune to 80% of threats for the first 5 levels and is immune to about 30% for the entire game >all other types of flight are magic item or concentration this will be fine In 5e, which is what you're actually talking about, the printed PC races with wings pay nowhere near what they need to pay for those wings. In other games winged PCs can be fine, especially if the game has level limits or level adjustments or some other thing that actually tries to balance them.
>>98140386>>98140408This. Flying is only overpowered if somehow all you ever have are open-air fights on completely flat terrain.>>98140689This is also true.
>>98140767>every encounter is wolves>all adventuring takes place outside in open air spaces right>it's fine if a PC has another movement option that enables them to overcome certain problems creatively>the PC doesn't need to get magic items or spells that give them new movement optionsftfy
>>98140453If we assume its a 300g stone of impossibly low density (2 g/cm3) it is still around 10 kg.m/s momentum close to that of a shotgun slug. Also i assumed cube because it is the highest air resistance outside of parachute shapes.Anymore excuses? Are you going to admit retardation now?
>>98137671You miss.
>>98137671If this were realistic, being shot with an arrow would mean you die. Dropping a rock on someone's head (if you even hit) will not one-hit kill anyone outside of 4e.
>>98138671It's not even an issue in D&D because as has been noted, give enemies ranged weapons. If you're flying in D&D, you probably don't have STR because you're either doing a ranged cheese build, your race can't wear heavy/medium armor to fly, or both. This means you probably also dumped CON because you think you're gonna just kite everything.That opens up a slew of options for stopping flight. Net traps, hold person, a poisoned crossbow bolt that causes incapacitated with a high CON save, there's plenty of ways for a GM to handle flight, and that's if you even care to. As has also been noted, you fags assume every fight is gonna be in a big open area with super high ceilings. Like... 100+ foot tall ceilings. Which... no? Like not even in baseline D&D, in most modules you're underground in a dungeon with at best 20 foot high hallways. Plenty within the range of even a hand crossbow.Even running 5e with homebrew flying races I never once encountered any issues. You're all just fucking peabrained morons who can't deal with three-dimensional space in your TTRPGs.
>>98133838People bitch about it because every single scenario that takes place outdoors just becomes "Wait around while the flying guy goes on a solo adventure and scouts out the entire location by himself" which is boring as fuck for the rest of the party.
>>98141349All these options you mentioned are more deadly to the people on the ground. Paralyze bolts and hold person??? Why dont you just hit the party with a meteor and cut it short. Also clearly in dungeons and enclosed spaces flying is less of an issue, but anytime you are outside it is an issue. Also DEX builds have higher AC
>>98141390>NetsUseless against ground-bound STR focused characters>Hold PersonAt worst equally deadly>PoisonSee hold person.>Ranged weapons in generalCover exists on the ground. Cover does not exist in open air. This goes to the people on the ground.>20ft tall hallwaysThis doesn't disadvantage ground based characters, in fact it's to their benefit, especially if they've got faster than normal movement like a Tabaxi, Centaur, or a Monk.>DEX builds have higher ACNo they don't, with the exception of maybe a lategame Monk. Even splint armor is 17 without DEX, while leather armor with DEX is at most 16. By the time the DEX character gets to studded leather, the STR character's going to likely have magical plate armor, or might even start with it if you're starting at 5th or higher. That's before you get sword and board involved. A Rogue with Studded Leather is going to have at best 17 AC. A Paladin with Full Plate, Defense, and a Shield will have 21 AC, and can also take Heavy Armor Master to reduce all mundane BPS damage they take by their proficiency bonus. The only class that can beat 21 AC without magic gear of any kind is Barbarian, as its capstone lets it boost its CON high enough to give it 22 AC, but they're super MAD to get to that point (20 STR, 20 CON, 20 DEX). If you get magic items involved, that paladin's going to have a cool 27 AC, 29 with Shield of Faith.You're a retard who doesn't even know what the fuck he's talking about.
>>98141349You sure are good at beating up that strawman you made of me. I play plenty of games with three dimensional movement, two a week in fact. D&D is just notably worse than other systems at handling this problem by RAW, putting much more work on the DM.Also what retard is dumping CON in a flying archer build? Unless you rolled like ass you'll probably be going for DEX > CON/WIS > the rest because that's just the smart way to build in D&D outside of casters who call for INT/CHA or martials who call for STR.
>>98133838Read the rules for strong wind.
>>98141433Fair enough, you are right on the AC stuff. Also, i never said dungeons are bad for non-fliers, i said fliers are indeed not optimal underground or inside buildings, but thats it. My main problem with flying characters is that now i cant have anything trivialised by flight, and it begins to feel like a vendita against the flying guy.Imagine if a race had the ability to go invisible at lvl1 at will. That shit will be obnoxious to deal with. Mind you invisibility is a lvl2 spell and fly is a lvl3 spell.Yes i can have creatures that sense with sound or heat or magic or whatever. Yes i can make it so its impossible to infiltrate while invisible, complete the entire mission and leave. But that will always feel forced.So instead i wont allow a race with invisibility or flight in dnd. Much less of an issue
>>98141522Read the rules for strong wind. You can thank me after. I solved your problem for you.Have a world with WEATHER.
>>98141390>All these options you mentioned are more deadly to the people on the groundHow so?>Why dont you just hit the party with a meteorWhat? Do you exclusively run games at level 1 and below?
>>98141433I once had a paladin character who, by level 20, made it to an AC of 27. Fun times. Most I ever had on a dex build was 19, but I think that game only hit level 8.Also, flying enemies were never an issue because I had a crossbow.
>>98134532>a flying race should radically change a setting. Like you should be thinking why isnt every race subservient to them levels of change>Anon discovers dragons
>>98141539If its strong wind, then his flight is no longer useful. I just robbed him of a race feature by being like "no you cant fly" might as well tell him pick another race. I am not forced to play with flying races.
>>98141603As if there'll never be moments where, for one reason or another, other abilities that other PCs have may be shut down, useless, or impractical.>Antimagic field/counterspell/silence (no you cant cast that spell)>Paralyze effects (no you cant do anything this turn)>Damage immunities (no you cant hurt it with fire)>an enemy literally just being 40 feet away (no you cant get up to melee range this turn without dashing or being a monk/etc.)Besides, you don't need EVERY fight outdoors to have wind. Just a couple here and there to challenge them once in a while. Don't be retarded.
>>98141139No you didn't fix anything, all my points make sense and your mirror cases are maximally fucking retarded.The problem with skipping encounters with wolves- wolves here standing in for literally every encounter with animals and almost everything with magical beast type creatures, most of which cannot fly- is that the PC in question has complete immunity when that is tactically useful, and can distract, kite, and pull himself out of danger effortlessly for a serious percentage of encounters. Even the cases where the wolves have some goblin riders with shortbows, the birdman PC still faces only a small subset of things. There's only a tiny fraction of encounters where the flight doesn't grant immunity to a serious set of things. Finally, you don't need to be immune to EVERY encounter to be a problem. A PC that makes you have to eliminate every wolf and dire lion encounter if you want the PCs to be threatened is a garbage PC, especially if he pays pretty much nothing for the power. It's not about every encounter, it's about a serious number of them, and that's a problem.Again, if every encounter is indoors then low ceilings (or rulings about wingspan) can mitigate a lot of the PCs bullshit for an entire adventure. Those work ok. But the moment you go outdoors- the moment everything isn't indoors- then the PC again removes all threat and challenge from any outdoor encounter. As above, you don't need EVERY encounter to have a problem for the wings to be a problem, the category of encounters that are trivial is just way too fucking big. Anyway, I doubt you're going to be deretardified by this because you couldn't possibly have made this argument in good faith if you weren't a total retard. So you're either here to troll, or you are incurably brain dead.
>>98141522>Imagine if a race had the ability to go invisible at lvl5 at will.Duergar
>>98141736>A PC that makes you have to eliminate every wolf and dire lion encounter if you want the PCs to be threatened is a garbage PC, especially if he pays pretty much nothing for the power. It's not about every encounterThings like wolves are a non-issue past level 5-6 anyway. The only time this is gonna be a serious problem is if you exclusively run games below that range.>the moment everything isn't indoorsStands to reason the wingspan of a human-sized creature would be far, far greater than that of ordinary birds. A few trees would make flight impossible, not even mentioning wind, rain, snow, etc.Or you can stop being a colossal faggot and let your PC fly sometimes because it's not THAT big of an issue.
>>98133838>As you're traveling through the woods, you're attacked by a viscous owlbear!>...and also some hostile guys with crossbows are there too!Yes arbitrarily tacking that on to every single encounter is so much more effective than just banning flying races and not giving a fuck the feelings of the kind of tryhard players who pick them.
>>98141603Only have occasional days of strong wind. And it still doesn’t make the feature useless. They can still fly to overcome all kinds of obstacles, but they need to land after every turn. It is still very good for combat and exploring, but can’t be used to ”infiltrate” or what ever you seemed to be afraid of. I mean you should do this weather thing anyway, it is in the rulebook.I mean this whole ”infiltration/scouting/solo play” problem is about the player not the flight ability anyway. You can run into same issue with stealth, familiars (stealthy and flying btw), druids, tons of different spells etc.Any competent player should know this is a group game and splitting the party should be avoided if not necessary.
>>98141856Viscous owlbear has some horrific implications
>>98141433>Cover exists on the ground. Cover does not exist in open air. Trees routinely provide cover to flying creatures from grounded creatures. Every flying creature inevitably has some fucking longbow or sniper rifle, so of course they can make much better use of cover anyway.
I swear /tg/ is infested with people who don't actually play games and just make threads like this to argue and bait people.
>>98141736>But the moment you go outdoors- the moment everything isn't indoors- then the PC again removes all threat and challenge from any outdoor encounter.Forests, swimming, overhanging rocks, burrowing enemies, flying enemies, rain, snow, fog. You're not even trying.
>>98133900They did find another way across. By flying. Dumbass.
>>98133915No. Actions and movement are separate.
>>98133931Simple, because it's not a problem option. There are far more powerful options available to the players, and none of them ruin the game, either.
>>98133915>Simpler way is to not let flying PCs.FTFY.
>>98134028No, they don't. Encounters don't change based on the party.Why are the inhabitants of the tower letting people approach it for free?
>>98134127Is this supposed to be bad or something? lol?
>>98142946No, not at all.
>>98142964>Can I play an Aara-cock-sucker?>NoIDK anon seems like an extremely simple solution to me.
>>98142978Cope.
>>98141433Nets can't even reach an airborne target due to limited range. Hold Person likewise is only 60 foot range. If they're high up enough to be in danger of fall damage, then they're too high for the spell. Paralysis itself is also more dangerous if there's already an enemy in melee range to auto-crit them.20 feet of ceiling is enough to hover out of range of most reach weapons as well, so it isn't even as if flight is useless indoors.Ranged weapons in general are also going to be worse for those ground-bound STR focused characters you're pointing to as an example of higher AC. A flying Dex character who specializes in a bow can always simply land and take advantage of cover while shooting if there are a lot of ranged enemies. Meanwhile the knight with a sword has to leave that cover in order to close the distance and fight the excessive number of archers that the DM included to try and counter the ranged character.You're exceptionally retarded. Especially because of this bit >>98141349>This means you probably also dumped CONWhy would anyone dump Con? You can't even imagine how other people are building their characters, and yet you're pretending to be an expert on encounter design.
>>98142993>OP asks about flying in "D&Dlike games">you start posting what I can only assume is some kind of Marvel/DC superhero style game where flying is a mundane and expected part of the game
>>98143018Yeah, D&D is bad, and my game is better.
>>98142928Depends on system. In PF2e you get 3 actions every turn and each move costs 1 action, including flying. If you fly, you also have to spend an action every subsequent turn to remain aloft.
>>98143018DnD literary has a 3rd level spell that lets you fly at will.
>>98143321I don't think you know what "at will" means friendo.
>>98143321DnD also has a 3rd level spell that lets you toss a fireball and incinerate a room full of enemies. So that'd be equally fair as an at-will ability for a level 1 character, right?
>>98140408>being able to trivially access second and higher stories, roofs, and the canopy doesn't matter>underwater functionally everybody is flying except for people so heavy they can't get off the bottom, who are at a major disadvantageI don't think you've thought this through completely.
>>98141436>D&D is just notably worse than other systems at handling this problem by RAW, putting much more work on the DM.Objectively incorrect. One bandit with a Heavy Crossbow shits on a flying character.>>98141522You can in fact have some things trivialized by flight. If a Player has an ability, they should be able to use it. In fact, I immediately thought about a puzzle that requires two people to finish, one able to reach a place high up in a large room and one on the ground. Shit, Wind Waker (Zelda game if you don't know) has a whole segement where LInk has to carry a flying bird girl around to get her to places he can't reach to progress.>Imagine if a race had the ability to go invisible at lvl1 at will. Oh boy they get Advantage on stealth checks! I'm pretty sure Bugbears get that now anyway, and even if they don't, it's really not as OP as you think it is. They're invisible, not silent, and the second they do ANYTHING the invisibility breaks.Your issue isn't actually flight or invisibility, it's a lack of creativity in encounter and dungeon design. Not every ability needs to be relevant all the time, and not every ability needs to be useless all the time.TTRPGs aren't competitive anyway; as a GM you should, ultimately, be rooting for the players even as you're rolling against them for the NPCs. You should hope they succeed rather than plot their absolute downfall because as a GM, you're god, you can just slap an encounter in that shuts all their shit down whenever you want. It's a collaborative storytelling game where the dice determine the outcomes. That guy who's invisible can absolutely whiff his roll and knock over a vase to give away his position. That flying guy can absolutely get crit by a heavy crossbow and fall out of the sky because he's at 0.
>>98141589IMO AC is something with diminishing returns. Anything over 22 is overkill until level 10+, and 25 is the absolute max you NEED in 5e at least. Though really, I'm not a fan of AC as a system at all; I'm more fond of systems with opposed rolls. It makes combat faster because things die faster because you can't just pump one number and become untouchable, especially if combat uses D6 pools.
>>98142024Then this cuts both ways. The treetops are cover against the flying creature.>>98142028Yeah, basically. There's maybe 2-3 posters I've seen who say shit that shows they play or run games. Anyone who thinks flight or invisibility is god mode is a nogames retard.
>>98143015>Nets can't even reach an airborne target due to limited range. Fling it from a catapault. Get creative. RAW is for faggots and retards.>Hold Person likewise is only 60 foot range. If they're high up enough to be in danger of fall damage, then they're too high for the spell. They're going to take fall damage at 60 feet. Read the book.>Paralysis itself is also more dangerous if there's already an enemy in melee range to auto-crit them.True, which is why while they're falling the guy's friends wait for where the birdman is gonna fall then stab him to death.>20 feet of ceiling is enough to hover out of range of most reach weapons as well, so it isn't even as if flight is useless indoors.It's also not god mode. There are thrown strength-based weapons any melee character can use with 20+ feet of range. And guess what happens when the flying guy hits the ground from 20 feet? Fall damage. Auto-fails on Death saves. In range of being stabbed.>A flying Dex character who specializes in a bow can always simply land and take advantage of cover while shooting if there are a lot of ranged enemies. Good thing all the guys he's shooting at are in full cover and he won't hit shit then.>Meanwhile the knight with a sword has to leave that cover in order to close the distance and fight the excessive number of archers that the DM included to try and counter the ranged character.You don't need more than one heavy crossbow to snipe a flying character.>Why would anyone dump Con?You're so confident you're invincible that you think you're never going to get hit. That's the typical mindset of you retards.>You can't even imagine how other people are building their charactersI can tell you that the guy who went all in on flying is a retard because he thinks it makes him invincible. I'm the GM. I can ground you whenever I want, however I want. I can rip those wings off you and burn them in front of your character, and you can't stop me.
>>98144040>being able to trivially access second and higher stories, roofs, and the canopy doesn't matterYou don't need flight for this, there are tons of ways in D&D to get a climb speed with little to no investment.>underwater functionally everybody is flying except for people so heavy they can't get off the bottom, who are at a major disadvantageSee above, getting a swim speed is trivial.
>>98139538A crossbow is a REALLY bad weapon against and arial moving target. You lose a lot of force firing it upward. But also a flying enemy can choose where and when to engage dumbass lol. Just wait til they set the crossbow down strike, fly away, repeat. Or fly above crossbow range (likely far enough not to be seen now) and drop something explosiveIn real life, they use shot guns to shoot birds because using a single pellet would be retarded
>>98140386Im talking about not just pcs but monsters as well. Also if you are a flyer you have the ultimate way to pick where and when you engage in like every single encounter.Enemy in a building? Drop an incinarary device on the roof
>>98141293I agree people NOT wearing hard hats at construction zones are the most likely to live through a hammer falling on their head
>>98144106Why is everyone in this thread ignoring me when i say "i can do this, i would rather not bother" the amount of thought i need to put into an encounter is cut by half by not including a flying or invisible PC.
>>98144106>One bandit with a Heavy Crossbow shits on a flying characterNo it does not a flyer again can out range any ranged ground based character.If a bow is range 120 and both are using one the only thing a character has to do to out range is move upward one position and is now immuneSo every turn is move down shoot move up. Then the only thing an enemy could possibly do is a reaction which is typically limited to an a single attack
>>98144290>You lose a lot of force firing it upwardDoesn't matter in "D&D like games".
>>98144114>invisibility and flight are godmodeLiterally no one in this thread said that. It is simply a large advantage, and saying you can counter the advantage does not make it not a large advantage
>>98144313Everyone lacks reading comprehension
>unlimited at will flying sucks because you have to alter most encounters to account for it>no just alter the encounters to account for it, it doesnt suck
>>98144106And so we return to>every encounter needs a bandit with a heavy crossbow
