>rpgs are about collaborative storytellingWhere did this myth start? Roleplaying games are about creating a character and then interacting as that character with a world of the game masters creation. A narrative eventually emerges organically from that but you’re not sitting down and collaborating to tell some “epic” story.
>>98187191I agree with you not the stereotype.
>>98187191It starts with the social contract that lets groups avoid playing the game while the retards who invoke said social contract call other people "nogames" whenever they lose an argument.They hate games, yet are so eager to shout "nogames" at someone who exposed their bullshit.
>>98187191Well there's no single answer, but probably the mid eighties? Adventure design tended to have more "narrative arc" built in about then. Plus you started to see influence from LARP and murder mystery societies and other similar spheres.By the time VtM was written, people did seem to be looking for games where the narrative was satisfying as a narrative as it happened, and the collaborative attempt to make that happen seemed to flow from there.
>>98187191>>98187248Few realize this
>>98187191It's basically a reaction to railroading. The emphasis of "collaborative" is on player characters having agency to make choices that don't just follow the GM's script. The narrative that emerges--the stories that are told--should be the result of player actions, GM responses, and how the two interact. The trouble is that people elide>rpgs are about collaborative storytellingto>rpgs are about storytellingbecause they're disconnected from the original context.
>>98187191>Where did this myth start?Braunstein, before the term 'roleplaying game' even existed, and also where Dave Arneson got his ideas for Blackmoor, which inspired Gygax to make D&D.
>>98187191>games are about creating a character and then interacting as that character with a world of the game masters creation. A narrative eventually emerges organically from thatSounds like your group is a bunch of faggy collaborative storytellers.
>>98187191>Where did this myth start?Well, do people do that and play games that way? Yes. Then it's not a myth.>There's a "right way" to play these gamesWell, since all we've gotta do is look around at the countless ways that people play these games and we can see that this is, in fact, a myth. In that it is a statement that is false and seeks to explain how the world operates and teach moral lessons. It also appeals to the platonic "form" of an RPG as something that exists and can be appealed to despite having no physical presense, to determine what rpgs "are." Ie, it's appealing to a supernatural notion of the existence of rpgs. So the notion that you've got the right definition of what rpgs are is a myth. And the notion that some rpgs are collaborative storytelling is an observable fact.
>>98187191>creating a character and then interacting as that character with a world of the game masters creationYou'll never guess what the definition of "collaborative storytelling" is
>>98187191>A narrative eventually emerges organically from thatBelieve it or not, that's a form of collaborative storytelling. Did you make decisions that affected the course of the emerging narrative? BAM! You've just collaborated in storytelling.
>>98187439>>98187618I think his point is that TTRPGs aren't about "muh story" to the extent some people would have you think it is.
>>98187439>>98187618>you socialized during the game, therefore the point of a rpg is socializingSome people actually do think this, funnily enough. So maybe:>you burn calories during a game, therefore rpgs are indistinguishable from a gym sesh
>>98187691But everything you do with a character up to and including a character's death is "their story" so to speak.
>>98187691An emergent narrative is a type of story. The question here isn't whether or not there is a story, but whether or not it is collaborative.
>>98187742You're not going to get far being intentionally stupid.
>>98187766Tell that to them
>>98187742Reductio ad I-think-I'm-so-smartium
>>98187691This is pedantry. TTRPGs can be about more than one thing. Quibbling over the way you are making decisions in character, but how that is not "playing a role" doesn't change the fact that you are playing a game of pretend with dice with your friends.It's like the guys who sperg out about Session 0 and then insist that they don't need to do that, because they just sit down before the game starts with their friends and set expectations and discuss character concepts. Which is literally all Session 0 is.
>>98187191>A narrative eventually emerges organically from thatThis is that collaborative storytelling you seem to hate.When the player says or does something unexpected and the GM decides to go with it, the player has contributed to the narrative.If the player does something unexpected and the GM says "No! You can't do that!" we call that railroading>inb4 the most extreme strawman example of a player trying to derail a session
>>98187995Burden of proof is on the "storyshitters", mate. They're the one making the claim.
>>98187191You're confusing collaborative storytelling (every RPG) with "adversarial" GM roles (the ones in which the GM presents mostly challenges to the players, like DND).
>>98188469>Milhouse word Opinion discarded
>>98188469>Burden of proof is on the "storyshitters", mate.I get it. You're a turbo-autist who hates to let other people have fun at the same time as you.Ever wonder why you keep getting kicked out of gaming groups?
>>98188858Even then, the adversarial shit was primarily as Gygax thing, mostly in response to people challenging him to be meaner, and the rest was cargo cult shit because somewhere along the way people stopped including the context that Tomb of Horrors was more of a joke for conventions than any sort of ideal, intended approach to playing D&D and running adventures.
>>98189335Adverserial GMing was borne put of Adverserial Reffing. Basically in Kriegsspiel, the Ref makes the moves as ordered by the Players and is expected to interpret a player's order in the worst possible way whenever an ambiguity presents itself.This server a number of purposes, chiefly simulating the confusion that one might expect giving orders in a war, as well as teaching Officers to anticipate the worst possible scenarios and give their orders in such a way that The Men (Ref) can't interpret them incorrectly.
>>98187191If a story is not collaborative, then it's just one person deciding what all the characters do. Since you are controlling what the protagonist(s) of the story does, you are in fact engaged in collaboration.
>>98187191the foreword from ad&d 1e, page number 2
>>98187191>Roleplaying games are about creating a character and then interacting as that character with a world of the game masters creationIs it not what "collaborative storytelling" means? Its a storytelling, where you and the GM have a back and fourth, where the world reacts to your actions and GM decides and tells you what happens
>>98189127Hey, if you've got a better/more respectful one, let me know.>>98189168Literally the opposite. I have no beef with them, just with people who uphold that style as the only way to play.Stop projecting.
>>98191266>better"Theatre kid" has been in the hobby for decades.
>>98187191>interacting as that character with a world of the game masters creation.I dont even fully like this notion. You guys can make up shit and I'll work it in if i can. and keep in mind, I am here to roll dice and play games too, even if my guys are "supposed to lose".
>>98191288True. I feel like that's too close to LARPer territory though.
>>98187191It's not a myth, it's an approach to RPGs. It's not the only approach, and it's annoying if people pretend it's the one true way, but it's one approach. There's also a degree of confusion caused by unclear definitions here. I can guarantee you that a good chunk of the people who talk about collaborative storytelling mean exactly the same thing you mean when you talk about a narrative organically emerging from players interacting as their characters with a world run by the GM.
>>98187191>Roleplaying games are about creating a character and then interacting as that character with a world of the game masters creation.so collaborative storytelling?each character is acting as a part of the narrative
>>98191288>my buzzword is better than yours!actually who cares?
it's literally a game of make believe
>>98191634The retard that tried to push his made up word by spamming it on teegee clearly cared.
>>98187191it started with nogames that are trying to write reviews for RPGs
>>98187191You just described collaborative storytelling.Seriously, what did you think it meant, if not creating a story together by playing a game? What else could it possibly mean?
>>98187691Then why did his post describe games being about the story, if that's not what he believes? Do you think he was lying about what his own opinion is?
>>98187852No, I'll tell you, since you're the one being stupid, and no one else is.
>>98188858Presenting a challenge is not adversarial GMing.
>>98191689All words are made up, retard
>>98191980Call it whatever, my point it is that is all collaborative storytelling.
>>98191973
>>98187191>Roleplaying games are about creating a character and then interacting as that character with a world of the game masters creation. A narrative eventually emerges organically from that but you’re not sitting down and collaborating to tell some “epic” story.That's collaborative storytelling though. The problem lies in people interacting with the hobby for the first time through "epic storytime" and wanting to fastforward into "the Ballad of Edgardo" within 3 sessions.
>>98187268>mid eightiesIt does seem like Dragonlance was pretty influential in changing how a lot of players approached D&D.
>>98187191Braunstein, the precursor to D&D.
>>98187191You've just defined collaborative storytelling.
>>98191634I do.>>98191985
