In the fact of its high prices, poor rules quality, FLOPS like Armageddon and Darkwater and Games Workshop's overall evilness as a company... why do pigs keep slurping from the trough? Why has no other game emerged as an alternative?
>>98190822Brand recognition + physical stores (which reinforce the brand recognition). They're the Apple of miniature wargames.
>>98190822Battletech tries, but it suffered from IP blunders, reduced market size international, and lack of popular side media (a less autistic video games than Batteltech or the Mechwarrior serie)
>>98190822What a flop about Armageddon. Every copy made will be sold just like every starter set ever.And it's the setting. That's what it has always been even back in 4th the rules weren't the best.I just wouldn't war games if it was warmachine or whatever else.
Because 40k is a cult and warhammer piggies are quite good at converting others to that cult.Just look at how long 40kids have been obnoxiously going to other sci fi communities and bragging about how 40k is le most hardcore setting or drawing spehs muhreens killing aliens of other settings.at least 15 years ago most of the people doing it actually painted miniatures nowadays 99% of them have never even touched a miniature but are secondaries who consume their warhammer slop through vidya and regurgitated youtube lorethey're a bunch of insecure consumerist manchildren obsessed with telling other people that their shitty 80's ripoff setting is the modern equivalent of shakespeare
>>98190822>high pricesAre they really when you factor in everything? Production sites in the UK instead of China, rent for tons of stores across the world, etc. Plus if you're poor, you can always get the minis on a thriving second hand market. I know I do. >poor rules qualityI don't know, I'm having fun. >Games Workshop's overall evilness as a company>why do pigs keep slurping from the troughCriticism of GW always seems to veer into anti-capitalist territory.
>>98190822How is GW evil? Are they poisoning some local water supplies or employing children to make miniatures with 14-hour workdays in unsafe factories? Going by the OP, I'm sure you have a game system in mind you believe should have succeeded but didn't, so I'd be curious to hear what that is.
>>98190822>Why has no other game emerged as an alternative?Because despite your hatred for GW and Warhammer, you seem to be blind towards all the alternatives out there, while Warhammer lives rent free in your head, and you keep thinking about why it is so big, instead of thinking about how to paint your Halo Spartans, or how to structure your Starcraft Protos army, or what Stargrave Crew you should bring to the next scenario. That is why Warhammer is so dominant.
>>98190919Is the Halo wargame any good? I was tempted to buy the starter set.
>>98190965Its based on Mantics Firefight rules, which are good. They tweaked them a bit, and added a mechanic for shields, items spawning in the map and also a respawn mechanic to make it feel more like a video game. If you have nostalgic feelings towards Halo vidya, then go for it. Its good.If you dont care for Halo, nor for the classic TDM video game feel, then i guess there are other/better games for you out there.
>>98190910Agreed. The only argument I can see for GW being evil is that, as with any shareholder company, they're obliged to create value for the shareholders. But by the standards of US megacorps they're surprisingly moral: they do keep production in-house in the UK, they reinvest into the business and they care a lot about brand quality. Investing in GW circa 2012-2016 was an incredible investment if you were willing to bet on them. Probably around 30x value and dividends every year.
Meanwhile I prefer to hang out at the warhammer shop with my friends painting minis and rolling dice, or enjoying my gundam assemble minis, my trench crusade minis and my other minis from independent sculptors. That's just what happens when you focus on actually enjoying what you like instead of making drama and controversy your primary interest.By the way, I'm really looking forward to the armageddon box. I think an ork boy will be the best mini to paint first.
>>98190828This.Also some other factors, if you want to play a game, why buy into some fringe game no one else plays. If you you buy into something GW you are guaranteed to find other players.They also have the constant release cycle. As they control the IP they can do it, it drives FOMO and also the fact that there's always something new. Historical you have everything exisiting. Stuff based on other IPs e.g. Marvel/Starwars etc you can only give minis of stuff that exists. Other unique TT based IPs are never as big as Warhammer thus even though they can create a constant product cycle, they will never have the same dominance.
>>98190919>>98191029It's hard to start other games as you know people play Warhammer.Where our group has managed to get other games going is we have talked about non-GW games, one has piqued the interest of a couple of people who buy in to test. Sometimes others get involved, sometimes not. But the group was formed through Warhammer and GW games still make up more than half of the games being played
>>98190822>Games Workshop's overall evilness as a companyWhat evil other than prices?
>>98191036For sure, but as long as the group comes together and plays (any) games regularly, thats where the fun is, isn't it? If its the right people, any game is fun if played together, even if, technically, some other games might have better rules. In the end, tabletop wargames are still a social thing mainly. I would rather play 40k (which i dont play actually), than not play with my friends at all. Luckily we play Necromunda as our main game these days, with a bit of dabbling into other skirmish games.And if you dont like the social aspect of it, or simply dont want to play what the other people of your group play, i think there are pretty much no games on the market these days without some sort of solo rules available, most even officially supported. Even GW released solo play options for Kill Team.
>>98191057The biggest one was scaring away fan animations when they were in their heyday.Some nintendo tier stuff games workshop did there.If I had to guess why it was to prevent any possible negative misperception of the ip made from fan animations.But mostly so they could put out their terrible warhammer plus program.
As someone who grew up spending Saturdays at GW, packing my backpack with ice cream boxes with kitchen roll padding for all of my miniatures; who is now mostly an /awg/ and /grog/ type guy who just loves random miniatures and simple games, I just don't get being part of the cult. I do wish I'd bought some GW shares back then though.Like, you're telling me they're actually keeping track of GW's release schedules, from Twitch stream hype to months later when [product] goes on pre-order and then they queue online or fight at their local LGS for the latest FOMO box when GW only send the shop half their order? Also they're going crazy for every £80 limited edition Black Library book with free colourful bookmark?Just sounds exhausting to me. These days I'd rather go to a local wargaming show and pick up some random old metals for a couple of quid each and dream up ways of adding them to one of my little warbands.I have the odd Warhammer Underworlds warband but even with them, I'm apparently lucky to own them as they only have an initial production and then you might see them again 2 years later. Same for random stuff like the Zoat they made, gone are the days you could order miniatures from the back catalogue from the Mail Order Trolls.Especially when the main games themselves now look like this. It all seems a bit mad to me.
>>98191087>Like, you're telling me they're actually keeping track of GW's release schedules, from Twitch stream hype to months later when [product] goes on pre-order and then they queue online or fight at their local LGS for the latest FOMO box when GW only send the shop half their order? Also they're going crazy for every £80 limited edition Black Library book with free colourful bookmark?I dont think the majority of people does that. Sure, some hyper invested nerds/retards certainly do, but not the majority.Following the release schedule isn't that hard desu, every sunday they post what will be up for the following weeks preorder. I get a newsletter from my lgs, with quotes from the warhammer page, and its either interesting, or i ignore it immediately. And i think thats how the majority of peoples modus operandi. Besides that, lurking on /tg/ pretty much makes it impossible to miss any relevant news.
>>98191099But like, how does that actually fit into making an army, a task that is already hard enough, and not just buying piles of boxes?
>>98191087The competitive guys who swap factions based on the meta and follow every release are nuts to me. I will say if you just play a couple of factions hopping on the release train when your one comes around isn't really much of a consumer ask. This probably isn't true of one of those factions is space marines, I guess, but that isn't a problem I have.It is mental to me GW have some of the best sculptors in the world and are keeping them uncredited in Nottingham working for some dogshit UK standard wage. Like god damn.
>>98190822Xwing was dominant for a hot minute before the owners killed it by releasing an incompatible 2nd edition
Is Darkwater really considered a flop? I kinda missed the launch and I see there's some stores that still carry boxes in my country. Which doesn't scream flop to me. It's no Cursed City flying off the shelves and being scalped to high heaven but that seems like a good thing no?
>>98191190People now think about GW in the same terms as say EA or Ubisoft etc., instead of other wargaming companies like Mantic or Warlord or Fantasy Flight or CMONWhich makes sense financially.But spiritually, you can tell their fans are Warhammer™ fans and not really miniature wargamers.
>>98191190people mainly bought it for the minatures (and boy there were people who wanted those minatures even despite its price), but the actual game is kinda meh. I had fun playing with flesh eater court hero's, but as much as I like pretty much all of the playable good guy characters, I dont think they were quite fun.
>>98191206I don't understand your answer. Let me rephrase my question, is Darkwater worth buying? I do enjoy a good boxed set and the mechanics with the map book look fine to me. 49 minis a bit too many for me, 20 or so is preferable as my painting skills are pretty limited.
>>98191220No warhammer game is worth buying unless you like warhammer™
>>98191220>Is Darkwater really considered a flop?>People now think about GW in the same terms as say EA or Ubisoft etc.Like nobody would ever say Frostgrave 2nd edition "flopped" because they're not thinking in those terms
>>98191190Anything that doesn't sell out instantly is a capital f-flop even if GW themselves later come out and say it was an enormously successful product. It's the /v/ tortanic mentality. Darkwater apparently has ass rules, which might mean less people are picking it up post-release than might normally get a WHQ product. It's still pretty solid from a model perspective.>>98191220As above, there are better products for this kind of experience. The Darkwater campaign is phoned in and has a couple of extremely tedious scenarios. Just get Gloomhaven or Frosthaven. If you wanted it for the Nurgle minis, I would say it was an OK buy.
>>98191190>Is Darkwater really considered a flop?Yes, but not by everyone, and certainly not by GW.> It's no Cursed City flying off the shelves and being scalped to high heaven but that seems like a good thing no?It is absolutely a good thing for the average customer.We have this paradox situation that people claim everything that is not sold out within 1 minute everywhere is a flop, while at the same time, whenever it happens they cry bitter tears because of all the evil scalper bots got a box and they did not. And GW finally should make more boxes.. and nowadays, GW seems to managed to increase their production capacities, and people actually can buy a starter box a week after launch. Which is, idk, what should be considered normal. But for some retards this is a sign of GW already financially struggling.
>>98191085So fucking nothing then?
>>98191245>Which is, idk, what should be considered normal. But for some retards this is a sign of GW already financially struggling.Exactly it's just really fucking weird.All for people to do stuff like this anyway.
>>98191220>Let me rephrase my question, is Darkwater worth buying?If you like the miniatures enough: yesIf you like the idea of playing a mediocre (not bad, but also not as good as other such games) dungeon crawler game with a campaign "story" within the AoS universe. Then yes.If you dont care for Warhammer, and you dont really care for exactly those miniatures, you can get better dungeon crawling boardgames.Its not a horrible game, neither was Cursed City or Blackstone Fortress - or any of the other GW boardgames - but nobody would claim those are 10/10 gaming experiences either. But if they tick a number of boxes for you, they can be played and can be enjoyed, despite some flaws. >Dungeons of Enveron (Maladum Starter set) This one is better, gameplay wise, in my opinion. It also comes with lovely cardboard terrain, but the miniatures are clearly inferior to what GW offers (but also not downright horrible in quality).
>>98191268Man that is one funny fucking picture.
>>98191268People love drama and love to stir up shit.GW was in a somewhat bad situation that during covid there was so much demand for their products, and they could not keep up. This just created the illusion that whatever they release, is sold out within a minute. Stores would only get 2-3 boxes of a new release, or sometimes their order was not delivered fully, and maybe customers got burned because they could not buy whatever box they wanted. And now, GW finally managed to produce more stuff. I really hope this becomes a trend, that whatever they release will stay on the shelves for a few weeks at least. This would take away so much stress and tension.
>>98191234>Just get Gloomhaven or Frosthaven.Those two are flawed in their own special way. (i'd recommend to check Gloomhaven on steam before buying that expensive game)
>>98191009Owning their own manufacturing is one of the things that actually keeps them profitable over time. At no point does a chink who is unaccountable to the law hold their entire business hostage and demand an additional percentage.
>>98191190Sales wise no, sold out everywhere. But it's a pretty terrible game.>>98191068100%. But you need to form the group first and generally it's through GW.I have a Necromunda group too which is great as no one power games and just plays their dudes like the crack head retards they are
>cool minis>cool lore>cool gamesit's just that simple. people will froth at the mouth about how actually their lesser known indie gem of a game is better but it's just never the case in reality. some examples>infinitycool minis, the game sounds cool but nobody gives a fuck about the lore>malifauxcool minis (hard plastic even), cool lore, potentially cool game except instead of being a dice game it's played with playing cards so if you're not rainman you can just skip the gameplay, this is why the game never gained popularity despite having cool minis and actually some borderline pinup/coomer minis>some company that outsourced mini production to wargames atlanticprobably has cool minis in plastic thanks to based wargames atlantic but if you're outsourcing mini production you're not in it for the long haul and your lore is probably shit and nobody knows if your game is good because nobody ever bothered to play it>muh historicalsstop. this is for autists only and will never have normgroid appeal.
Models that appeal to a wide group of wargamers.
>Cool lore>Unique aesthetic>Brand recognitionThat's really it. 40k is propped up by its setting more so than anything else. Everything else is just derivative slop.
>>98190822Popularity is a thing that builds upon itself. People naturally gravitate towards the most popular option _because_ it's the most popular, regardless of any other qualities or flaws it has. This is why shit like Windows is still the global standard despite every human hating W11. Picking the most common option will mean you have many peers and will thus have an easier time getting assistance, finding opponents etc. Warhammer 40K is objectively one of the worst games ever invented (to the point that its own fans will tell you, with a straight face, that playing the game is not the point of the game but painting the stupid fucking figurines is) but because it's popular, it remains popular.
>>98190873It doesn't help that battletech is basically all mechs. 40k has mechs, but also infantry and tanks and monsters and bikes and planes, etc.
>>98192333>but also infantry and tanks and monsters and bikes and planesbattletech has had that for ages
>>98191009Keeping production in the UK isn't a fucking positive. I don't give a fuck that GW keeps 300 would be meth heads off nottinghams streets.If they had factories damn near everywhere else, production would be way up, supply would be higher, and they could have fucking cheaper prices WHILE making MORE money.All the UK does is hold them back and fuck over everyone who ISNT in the UK.
>>98191190The game is, quite literally, mechanically broken.
>>98190822The answers are gravity and infrastructure.Warhammer is the biggest and most recognizable thing in the space. Which means that it's going to have the easiest time pulling in prospective players.Sure, that other wargame might appeal a bit more to you. But you've never heard of it. And you don't know anyone who plays it. But you've heard of warhammer. You know people who play warhammer. You know that there are people playing warhammer you could get pickup games against. So you pick up warhammer. You got pulled into warhammer's gravity well.Then in addition to that, Warhammer has advantages in terms of scale. Games workshop is, frankly, bigger than most of its competitors. And sometimes just having the weight to throw around is enough. Specialty game stores do not have to be sold on if stocking warhammer is a good idea, much like they don't have to be sold on if stocking Magic or D&D books is a good idea. It is. And GW knows it, and uses that to its advantage; did you know that GW requires stores to dedicate a certain amount of their space to warhammer? And that creates an impression. There's a huge section of the store's wall that's ALL warhammer products. Warhammer is so big. Oh sure, there's a rack of stuff for another war game, but look at all that Warhammer. It must be so much more popular. Your LGS is, unless they've got a ton of floor space, forced to give GW more space than other wargames, and that creates an impression in your mind.And then hey, what if a game store says "fine, fuck you" to GW. If it's a small market, probably nothing. I knew this small store in a philly suburb that was all Privateer Press games and card games because it was that or sell ONLY GW products and give up their play space for GW product. But that was a small loss.But if there is an untapped market and the local game store isn't playing ball? GW also runs its own stores. And they might just pop one down. And create that closed GW loop.
>>98190822A bunch of simple things that overlap. >got there early>war in the name, I shit you not this is some of it our entire culture is built on World Wars as foundational >Space Marine is the protagonist, Marines are a very cool and popular image, again western culture and War, combined with hero dude who is strong and doesn't afraid of anything >realized they could appeal to 'competitive' side with editions, codex creep, etc. to sell models then start it all over again next cycle >realized the could appeal to nostalgia side with choked release cycles that leverage fomo and could get everyone to buy hero dude army again and again with a gothic hat >changed fluff to lore and crank out so much of it there's endless free advertising and mental market capture >evocative splash cover art of big hero marine doing war >creating a consumer identity with the above and becoming a lifestyle product in step with nerd bazinga expansion in the 2010s. >video games Doesn't hurt every other wargame out there has unbelievably retarded mgmt.
>>98192333>>98192638Battletech has never had the ability to make large quantities of sales. The scale of the game is built around smaller operations and force multipliers rather than mass battles that doesn't map over to getting your customer base to spend nearly as much on a regular release cycle. That being said, I don't think battletech is trying to compete with warhammer as their goal. They do by being wargames and the overlap there but their business models are very different. The battletech intro boxes are complete games, you never need to buy more. It might be a gateway but its not designed around being incomplete. GW starter boxes are more like game samplers compared to the 'full' game encouraged by the rules design and sales methods.
>>98191268What am I looking at here?
>>98192973an lgs with people playing using a lot of a single unit, because its meta.Its not a tournament though, as the unpainted unbased models would lose the player so many points they wouldnt be competitive.
>>98192659>fuck over everyone who ISNT in the UKGood.
>>98192698thats the answer why it stays ontop. And not a very good one. First how did it get ontop, and wargaming isnt cloud compute a monopoly is much much weaker. Warhammer lore as a whole is stolen from so many places, that it means most people like not just 1 faction but multiple, and with the books, and videogames, have consumed warhammer often for years before playing
>>98192659its the UK or china, I would rather pay more for western goods.
>>98190822>Why has no other game emerged as an alternative?Look around you, there are more competitors doing well than before. I think people largely have been priced out of Gee Dubs and are looking into alternatives. If you want better rules then you can easily find them, like Corvus Belli's Infinity, with overwatch mechanics and opposed rolling it makes every turn engaging and lethal.
>>9819325440k isnt a very expensive hobby. People really arent going to be priced out of it in a meaningful way.
>>98192638As a token presence, but the focus is nearly always mechs. 40k has pure mech factions, but also ones that focus on all the others (except planes). The diversity of factions is a real contributor to the popularity.
>>98193433it's one of the most expensive hobbies, wdym
>>98193494cheaper, than drinking, pc gaming, mountain biking, shooting, wood working, Fuck MTG makes 40k seem cheap. And it is actually its biggest competitor.
>>98190822Each time I've heard a big buzz about some wargame with plastic minis they fail to live up to the hype in terms of quality. Looking at conquest in particular. Also, licensed video games. TWW3, Darktide, and Space Marine 2 roped a lot of non wargamers into GW wargames.>flops like darkwater / armageddonDarkwater has sold quite well in my area. Armageddon also seems poised to do well. If you want to talk about flops, look at the aos launch box. I think my lgs still has like a half dozen.
>>98193533>If you want to talk about flops, look at the aos launch box. I think my lgs still has like a half dozen.Not a flop for GW, because they got money from the lgs. They sold the box. If its collecting dust in a store or in a shelf in someones pile of shame is not GWs problem any more.
>>98193544Yes it is. Thats means the LGS will buy less next time you idiot.
Trench Crusade was shaping up to be a replacement until they decided to be fucking retarded and make it more expensive than Warhammer.
>>98193629huh?Thats normal its a smaller company making a more niche product. They dont have GW's scale how could they make things cheaper.
>>98193635huh? WGA's entire bit was cheaper than GW plastic kits.
>>98193626They buy more every edition despite fags like you yellign flop every time.
>>98193635Kek. I refuse to believe you might be so innocent.
>>98190822Cool setting, is more of a setting than one single story like marvel slop.Extremely cool inspiring characters in both the 30k and 40k setting.
>>98194083>inspiring characters >in 30k and 40k I think I know rocks with more personalities
>>98194088idk bro i thought garro, loken, shadrak were all compelling characters.
>>98193728yes, and then you arent going to make enough money to compete with GW on marketing, or any other important space.
>>98194155Anon, their bit is still making cheaper than gw plastic kits.
>>98194000i am the first person in the thread saying Armageddon isnt a flop. Two things can be true retard. They order less AoS kits and they order more warhammer in total.
>>98194080and actually compete?of course if they dont want money to grow the business, and just want to make cool minis and pay rent they could sell them cheap. But I refuse to believe you are so fucking stupid as to believe that, so you must just be a troll.
>>98194157and they look like shit. You need to be at the same level and then cheaper to make waves.
>>98193433>40k isnt a very expensive hobby.Yeah, right. Everyone knows that.
>>98194167>smaller companies need to charge more! >oh wait uh >smaller companies look bad! where you taking the goalposts next? You're already in the stadium parking lot.
>>98190822The last generation is just entering their 20's when 40k is most appealing because its slightly more believable and less gay than star wars. They'll age out of 40k eventually like their their predecessors and move on to more casual skirmish games or more involved historical games. Then with no one to replace them 40k will finally perish about ten years from now, probably after sweeping changes trying in futility to appeal to illiterate third worlders somehow still broke as shit despite all the help in the world.
>>98190822Because its everywhere.No matter the local community you can and will find a game of 40k in every town with an LGS.Smaller games require nurturing and can vary from town to town. One LGS for example might host a massive SW Legion community. Another might have a surviving enclave of Malifaux players. But they'll also all have Warhammer players.And there have been alternates that tried to usurp the crown. Warmachine got the closest but it fumbled the ball. Though that doesnt mean that there are no alternatives out there today. There's more wargames out there than ever. Star Wars. Warmachine (it came back). Halo Flashpoint. Starcraft is just getting started. Konflict 47. Trench Crusade (not my cup of tea but whatever). Marvel Crisis Protocol. Infinity. Warcrow. Conquest. Malifaux (its still kicking) And then you've got the people keeping old GW specialist games alive like the Mordheim and BFG communities, and the guys who have small groups playing everything from Frostgrave to 5 parsecs from home to fucking gaslands.Warhammer dominates the ecosystem, but there are a growing amount of small niche games out there to enjoy.
>>98190965Its good, and expanding. They're bringing in new gamemodes and ways to play (there are hints at a coop firefight campaign system sometime this year) and the range has expanded beyond Spartans. Elites, Brutes and ODST's are already released while Marines, Grunts and Jackals are coming in September IIRC.I love the look of the grunts. Apparently they're gonna have a way to go full party popper and run suicide plasma grunts.
>>98194178For an adult with a job it genuinely isn'tFor teenagers or college students (who make up a pretty decent chunk of the customer base, or at least their parents do) it definitely is.
>>98193105>how did it get ontopLord of the Rings. Unironically, Lord of the Rings saved GW.Before the Fellowship of the Ring deal, GW was floundering. They'd just had Gorkamorka collapse on them and closure was a legit concern. Then they scored a deal with the Tolkien estate and started cranking out LotR models, and the hype from the movies saved their asses, letting them recover from their pre 2000's losses. Lotr was the first time normies started really getting into miniature wargames. Especially kids. Especially kids that saw the magazines handing out the minis. 40k may be the juggernaut these days, but its LotR that GW owes their lives to.
>>98193728And WGA is still cheaper than GW. They are not behind trench crusade anyway. Have you seen their Damned army set? It's 50+ miniatures for half the price of a combat patrol
>>98194346It's a matter of perspective. If you are deep within the hobby, and do nothing else really, or maybe only play video games as a 2nd hobby, then all you know is numbers for hobby tools, miniatures and video games. And if you surround yourself with only likeminded people, no matter your job or income, you won't experience other hobbies cost.
>>98190822Momentum and said high prices causing sunk cost fallacy.
>>98193483The focus in stories of battletech is on mechs 99% of the time, yes. But that doesn't stop you from making a conventional force of tanks and troops, pure troops, pure tanks, true combined arms or even an all aircraft force.
>>98194162Everybody is cheaper and still make banks. Lurk moar newfag.
>>98190905>spehs muhreens killing aliens of other settings.I have no problem whatsoever with art of faggy aliens being killed by space marines, as long as it's about killing them for being faggy and not some display of franchise dominance.
>>98191675>>infinity>cool minis,Let's not go crazy here, they're okay but very very generic. Like the physical version of asking an AI to generate "sci-fi wargaming miniatures".
>>98194185not understanding normal words or how normal businesses operate isnt impressive champ.
>>98195360its my cheapest hobby, only PC gaming is as close to as cheap. well I guess reading books is cheaper, libraries and shit.
>>98193516This. It's really not that expensive.Have spent somewhere between 5-10k on Warhammer and I have a multitude of different armies for different games, terrain, books etc.Over the course of a few years. It's not much
>>98195441you mean none of them. GW is barely making bank. 6.6 billion barely qualifies as a major company anymore.
>Trench Crusade was shaping up to be a replacementI'm sorry are you actually a retard. Games Workshop are a FTSE100 company, Factory Fortress is Tuomas and Mike in a cloak.
>>98190822Because as much as /tg/ might shit and piss itself over it, most people who are into Warhammer are into the lore first and foremost. Not minis, definitely not the game itself, the lore. And there's simply no other competitive tabletop game with such extensive setting. Trench Crusade might have been it, but the people behind it fumbled it and nobody gives a fuck now.
>>98195576Age of Sigmar has consistently been either the second or third best performing miniature game since its inception, and that game has "lore" actively working against it.In a similar vein, whfb's rich world and 30+ year lore buildup didn't stop it from a crashing and burning in the 2010's.Lore alone doesn't explain everything.
>>98193494It's becoming very expensive for kids but in terms of adult income it's very affordable, spending £50-100 a month will build you a decent army pretty quickly and if you can't afford that then your financial situation must be pretty desperate and you probably shouldn't be doing any hobbies that aren't literally free.
>>98190822Momentum born from a consistent presence over a long period of time.It's been able to maintain a fairly consistent presence in multiple mediums and that builds on itself with investment in the setting feeding more investment.To use Battletech as an example for a game that's been around for a similar length of time and because >>98190873 brought it up, FASA had made a ton of momentum starting out to the point of getting a show aired and produced but they flared out bad and collapsed by 2000, scattering the IP rights to the wind with dozens of legal issues. Which in turn got thrown into more turmoil with WizKids trying to completely redo the entire game with ClickyTech and a massive timeskip that only now has been resolved enough for the setting to continue forwards with one of the biggest legal battles only finally resolving around 2018. Hell, Catalyst's models were in a bit of a grey area with them claiming the models were free but the Alpha Strike cards are what cost money because there was weirdness on THAT front as well until they bought Iron Wind Metals.Warhammer has had its own troubles as >>98194350 noted, but their financial troubles didn't hit the sheer lows and even with all their ripping off of other things - their legal troubles have been more them going after others, rather than the nonsense of Harmony Gold or something like Microsoft getting perpetual video game rights.As for stuff that's been around for less time like Infinity, there's both not been the time for stuff to build up the momentum to such a degree, nor a similar media presence. They haven't had any book series like the Eisenhorn trilogies, much less something the scale of the Horus Heresy, and they haven't had their own equivalents to Tacticus or the Space Marine games or even any of the lesser projects.
>>98194892Their TC box, the Trench Missionaries, is much more in line with the GW and other TC sales methods. Its something specific to that game where gouging and being more magically okay?
>>98195635>As for stuff that's been around for less time like Infinity, there's both not been the time for stuff to build up the momentum to such a degree, nor a similar media presence. They haven't had any book series like the Eisenhorn trilogies, much less something the scale of the Horus Heresy, and they haven't had their own equivalents to Tacticus or the Space Marine games or even any of the lesser projects.Pretty much this.Apparently, there is an Infinity video game in early access on steam right now, but that would be a first ever thing.With GW/Warhammer, even when you are not actively painting, building or playing miniatures, you can still spend your time within the Warhammer universe.. either by reading one of hundreds of books (quality may vary, but still), playing one of countless video games (some of which are pretty good) or listening to an audiobook. >audiobooksThis is really something, nobody else has i think. There are battletech novels and video games too after all. But audiobooks, with actually very high quality narrators on audible and other plattforms is just leagues ahead of all the competition.
>>98195944Its a commissioned box, made by WGA for Dave from the Miniwargaming youtube channel. Thats why its a squad of mormons, because he is one. And apparently he wants his share of the money from the sales of that box. The box is overpriced for sure, but is this really a big deal? Its a pet peeve of some rich youtuber who wanted mormon trench fighters.WGAs normal prices were not affected by it at all. But if more than just one company is involved, prices are a bit higher, so for example the Reptilian Overlords SpaceNam are more expensive than the OG WGA sci-fi models.
>>98195542Being a contradictory retard and declaring that as victory is a normal business thing to do so carry on with that.
>>98195966Yes. You're not saying anything that disagrees with me. Do you just need to get >the lastpost in? Its okay if that's what's up.
>>98195610Yeah most people don't really have a hobby besides vidya or watching tv, both of which are absurdly cheap (and not *really* hobbies amyway), so it's hard to compare. For an adult it's quite cheap, but teenagers are getting priced out
>>98193626You say that, but the same people who bought 90 copies of Dominion also bought 90 copies of skaventide.
>>98196027>but teenagers are getting priced outIf a teenager can afford a gaming pc or a console, he could, in theory, also afford a warhammer army.
>>98193626>>98196035GW distribution works differently.They simply tell them: You buy 100 boxes of AoS, in an bundle with 100 boxes of 40k - if you order just 150 boxes of 40k, we can not guarantee you to get the full amount, and you will pay a bit more for them. Besides that, no healthy store will start to struggle if a box is not selling as well as Indomitus. Dominion was a big exception, because pretty much everyone thought they would just magically sell as many of them as if it was a 40k box, but generally speaking, GW stuff, whatever it is, just sells well, and draws in people, so the stores keep stocking GW, no matter what it is.
>>98190822>high pricesStill cheaper than a woman.>poor rules qualityI won't argue with this one, but part of the problem is players' slavish devotion to the ruleset and editions. In D&D, homebrew and house rules are generally pretty accepted but you try introducing such concepts to 40k players and see what response you get.>FLOPS like ArmageddonNot in terms of demand/sales.>DarkwaterNobody has cared about WQ in a looong time.>Games Workshop's overall evilness as a companyThey know how to keep things compelling and profitable. That's effective business practice.Now the upsides you didn't mention>genuinely interesting setting>generally cool models>deep lore supported by novels>factions are well fleshed out with recognizable aesthetics and varying army structures/play styles>rules less intensive than traditional wargames>large community/fanbase>popularity going mainstream
>>98190822Brand recognition and the fact nearly every war game released these days is either selling its self as a Warhammer Killer (tm) and failing to kill Warhammer. Or a small ruleset with models that look exactly like Warhammer’s and text saying “compatible with other sci-fi war games ;)”
>>98195437You're right that it's possible, but do you think that makes it easier to sell Battletech instead of 40k to a potential new player who likes infantry and tanks more than mechs? The point of the thread is to discuss why 40k is so popular, and my argument is that one of the contenders (battletech) is hampered by a narrower focus. "basically all mechs" as I phrased it.Someone who prefers aircraft would probably not go for either game, but I was not aware that a pure aircraft force was possible in Battletech, that's cool.
>>98190822Decades of lore and models and rivals shooting themselves in the foot. And honestly, when it comes to the miniature wargaming market there isn't a whole lot of serious competition. Privateer Press crashed and burned with Mk III and their recent efforts haven't helped them much. Warlord Games does mostly more niche games, like Bolt Action and Hail Ceasar, and seems more than happy to be toymakers happily tinkering in their workshops instead of expanding. Battletech is in a weird spot because the IP has bounced around a lot and they can't monetize as well as GW can because introducing new mechs is tricky and era dependent. Beyond those three, I don't think there's anyone else of note. Reaper and Wizkids make minis, sure, but they make theirs for D&D.
>>98196339Battletech is odd in that they have rules for you to basically do anything. Like, there's full rulesets of designing and fighting with Naval Combat, a Warhammer scale combat system in Alpha Strike, full planetary invasions with maps for Planets, fully simulating a campaign of wargames with full accounting for your mercenary company, pirate band, or nation's mliitary forces over the course. Fuck they have a full system to simulate a grand strategy game like Stellaris in Inner Sphere at War.And beyond that, the two California Nebula books are non-canonical products entirely based around creating an area of space for making a shitload of different parodies of other settings ranging from Transformers, Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Gallactica, Halo, Fallout, Marvel/DC, and so on. With rules to create all of their stuff. Including shit like a way to convert characters and spells from 3.5 D&D over to one of their RPGs.However, it's a pain in the ass to find all the rules as they can get very spread out across multiple separate books (Land-Air Mech rules are across three, if I remember right) and formatting can be pretty bad because some stuff is very old and made when the money wasn't there to get good formatting. And that's before getting people who know the rules past Classic Battletech outside of maybe Alpha Strike (and even with Classic, a lot of people only know the 'Mech rules because while Total Warfare has all the rules, the BattleMech Manual is much easier to read and is cheaper)
>>98193516>cheaper, than drinking, pc gaming, mountain biking, shooting, wood working,Unless you're spending $3000 on a computer to play latest games at the highest settings, pc gaming is extremely cheap.
>>98196539>pc gaming is extremely cheap.Not recently. 4tb is like $900 alone.
>>98196548You don't need a 4TB drive for gaming. 2 TB will do just fine unless you're data hoarding. Even with RAM and SSD prices being as ridiculous as they currently are, you can still build a decent gaming PC for less than $1500 and play all current games. And that PC will last you several years at which point you replace the GPU and maybe add more RAM and it'll last several more years.
>>98196339You can do pretty much anything in classic battletech but the tradeoff is time. The game doesn't play quickly unless you're playing it digitally.There are ~5400 canon non-mech variants (naval, space, infantry, tanks, vtol, planes) and rules for constructing your own and about 4400 canon mech variants.Most people focus on mechs with a couple support units on the side but I know a couple people who preferred going all in on tanks and choppers.
>>98196539I spend 4-5k, on gaming PC every 4-5 years, plus the games and DLC. Thats more than I spend on warhammer every 4-5 years
>>98196706There wasn't any big jump in graphics for like 10 years. You can still play every newly released game with whatever Geforce you had 10 years ago. Still not a cheap hobby, but dont pretend you really need to replace your pc that often like you do.
>>98192659Other companies who use chinese manufacturing got hit hard when the US tariffs on china hit. Due to how cost-of-manufacturing tariff calculations work miniature manufacturing from china was taxed by 170% in some cases.Middle men are also just as willing to nickel-and-dime as GW. With that profit going to them and not the company that makes all these minis.
at the end of the day this is a social hobby for many of us and I while I will happily pick up a cool model I enjoy from elsewhere (or just make something myself) the joy comes from sharing hobby and game time with my friends or asking my buddy if he would rather be a gretchin or a female guardsmanalso, obviously, there are a million on-ramps to 40k through vidya, videos, metal bands (?), books. there's a guy at my work who just likes to read 40k books and has zero interest in any other part. another guy who just paints and has never touched a rule book nor played a game.>>98190905you talk like you spend too much time on the internet
>>98196706>I spend 4-5k, on gaming PC every 4-5 yearsAnd choosing to spend that much is entirely on you, not on gaming being expensive. It may have made sense 20 years ago, but now you really don't need to get the latest and greatest.
I don't knowThe only reason anyone gives a single shit about warhammer outside of bongland is because of a video game 20 years ago
>>98196847And before that, they flooded newspaper stores with the LotR magazines, and even before that, there were games workshop stores in many european cities.
>>98196838I mean when intel fucks up an entire generation of chips it costs the end user what....$1000 to swap to team red? 1400 if you go to ddr5? Thanks AI.I can see 5k if you expect a fuck up of that scale every 5 years but it shouldn't be likely.Maybe they play a lot of aaa games?
>>98195966>And apparently he wants his share of the money from the sales of that box.What is it with Mormons and feeling entitled to the proceeds generated by the sales of other people's plastic toys recently?
>>98196739take your meds. We are talking about hobbies. I could spend a quarter of what I do on warhammer as well if I wanted to by second hand. also if you think there hasnt been a big jump in graphics over the last ten years you are blind.
>>98196981I almost only play triple A games. Mostly things like Total war and Battlefield. Also lol I am not poor, before i restarted WH PC gaming was my cheapest hobby. The 5k on a PC spread out over 4-5 years is not expensive.
>>9819710290$/mo on games gets you past 5k in 5 years1 aaa title every other month is about 2500 and you probably want 1200-1500 for hardware...Yeah 4-5k in 5 years is reasonable. 45$/mo on games isn't crazy high, I can see it.
>>98191245>We have this paradox situation that people claim everything that is not sold out within 1 minute everywhere is a flopIt doesn't help that most of the terminally online people feel like they have to buy every release, say they'll start a new army just because a single miniature has released etc.
>>98190822Because the minis are actually great quality and the games are fun enough, the story is oldschool grimdark bullshit which is still girlboss and tranny free.
>>98196887>LotR magazinesNot warhammer>europeBackwaters
