I spoke to a paid DM. They have a very interesting (and sobering) story to share.There is this person I once played D&D 4e with, long ago. By chance, I stumbled across him online and caught up. This person has been wanting to vent for a while about his side hustle as a paid 5e DM, and, for whatever reason, thought I would be a good listener.At some point, I asked if I could share his story online, publicly. He agreed (citing that he highly doubts that anyone involved checks RPG-related Discord servers, subreddits, and such), under the condition that there would be no identifying information, no direct quotes aside from small phrases, no direct price tags, nobody trying to contact him, and so on. I have already run my posts by him.I have no way of verifying if any of this is true. He could be fabricating everything. In turn, you have no way of verifying my own side. I suppose that is just how things go. I am sharing this story simply because I find it interesting.• The DM has been doing this for nearly a decade, usually thrice a week, ~6 hours a session, in-person. He started off charging (X) USD per hour (for the whole group, not for each player), but gradually increased his price to ~3(X). The DM is aware that this is very high, but he gets away with it by relentlessly networking across a certain area in the U.S. where upper-middle-class 20- to 30-somethings are common. One current group, consisting of nobodies in the right-wing grifter sphere (who still manage to cough up money anyway), the DM charges ~5(X); he tells them that they are getting a premium experience, even when the DM is doing nothing particularly different.• His clients are almost all white or white-passing, upper-middle-class, 20- to 30-something men. The DM freely admits that there is selection bias. This is probably the only demographic willing to pay such high prices for someone to run a game for them. Sometimes, someone brings a girlfriend, who may or may not play.(Continued.)
• The DM has run for 200+ players over the course of dozens of campaigns. No campaign has reached a proper conclusion.• Group sizes are usually six or seven (I know, I know) players, but one or two almost always ghost on the session without sending advance notice. Players frequently show up for game night drunk, high, or both. Every single game thus far has ended with a critical mass of players ghosting and never showing up again. Fortunately, the DM insists on collecting payment beforehand; and yes, these players are indeed willing to just throw money away.• Yes, many players mention Critical Role, Brennan Lee Mulligan, etc.• The stereotypes of 5e-only players are true ~99% of the time. They either think that "D&D" is the only RPG in the world, or that it would be such a hassle to learn another system. They do not know how any of the rules work, they do not bother to roleplay, and they do not remember anything about the last session. (If you know how the rules work, you roleplay, or you remember events from the last session, then you are in the top ~1% of players.) They show up mostly for the very loose idea of "playing D&D" and having fun with friends.• ~99% of the time, a player declares their turn in combat to be "I attack" or "I cast a spell" without specifying anything more than that (aside from the occasional "I cast fireball!" or "I cast lightning bolt!" even though the character could not possibly have the spell). The DM asks them to roll a d20; on anything but a natural 2+, he tells them "You hit!" and the player gets excited. The DM does not ask them to roll damage. Sometimes, if he feels like the players will not be too dismayed, the DM tells a player who rolls in the 2 to 5 range that "You miss. This guy is really [tough/fast]!"• The DM does not bother tracking anyone's hit points, and just tells players things like "You take some damage," "You are close to dying," or "You finally beat him. Tell us how you do it!"(Continued.)
• Players tend to panic and think that they are in a dire situation the moment the DM informs them that they take even "some damage." The tension ramps up even further whenever the DM says, "You are close to dying."• A non-negligible number of players are really sweaty tryhards who know the ins and outs of damage math and tracking hit points... in video games. When it is time for "D&D," they simply turn off their brain, and all damage and all hit points are suddenly imaginary.• Yes, players really do go crazy when someone rolls a natural 1, expecting something goofy to happen. They cheer when someone rolls a natural 20, expecting something absolutely epic. The DM indulges them.• Players really do not know how ability checks, skills, or saving throws work. They get antsy if the DM tries to talk about the rules as actual rules, so he has learned to simply never bring up the rules to begin with.• Maybe the archetypal tiefling bard is popular in other communities, but not this one. Here, it is mostly bros playing "male human [fighter/barbarian/paladin]," with the occasional wizard if someone is feeling spicy.• Players love to be showered with magic items that simply sound cool from vague descriptions, even though the DM never actually explains their mechanics (because there are none). Swords brimming with flame, frost, or lightning are usually smash hits.• Since players will seldom remember anything from previous sessions, the DM just randomly throws the party into wacky action scenes, often as paper-thin as "You are in the king's castle when all of a sudden, a dragon attacks!" He does not even bother trying to maintain a consistent setting, whether published or homebrew.• The DM frequently gets told that he is the "best DM ever!" even though he is fairly sure that these people have played under nobody else.• There is minimal demand for non-5e DMs. If you want another RPG, look elsewhere.Make of this what you will.
Yeah yeah 5e sucks we got it. How did your last game session go?
>>98218388Decent enough. I ran 13th Age 2e several hours ago, Sentinel Comics a couple of days ago, and D&D 4e a few days ago, interspersed with Daggerheart play-by-post.
>>98218358It sounds like everyone involved, including the DM, is pretty shitty. Scamming shallow idiots with more money than sense is still being a scammer. It also sounds like the DM directly contributes to the players being able to play without knowing the rules, having misconceptions about natural 1s and 20s, and so on. All in all, while your story makes evetyone involved seem pretty bad, I think the DM comes off as the worst of the bunch, especially if he actually had the temerity to vent to you about how tough being a grifter and making a good amount of money out of it is.
>>98218431I think the selection bias is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, especially with regards to these people being absolute beginners/tertiaries/outsiders. They're paying for a DM specifically because they AREN'T part of the rpg community but want to experience what they've seen on youtube.So he provides a hollow facsimile of that experience, charges an arm and a leg for it, and these people only sign up for it because they don't know any better.
>>98218388At least he honest about the actual problem, regardless of the thing you don't like. None of these are system issues; they're game culture issues.
>>98218431>>98218444Yes, the ethics of this type of grifting are questionable. I am not sure how this DM manages to network so aggressively; maybe it is easy to find gullible clients in that area.Also, juicily, I have been contacted by someone on Reddit who has vaguely insinuated that they are in this very DM's periphery, and has mentioned that some players are so brazen as to outright bring cocaine to the table (not a lot of it, though).
>>98218358>>98218367>>98218376Poor guy, sounds like being forced into prostitution by dire life circumstances. I guess prostitutes have similar stories about johns but in the context of sex instead of D&D. I'm so grateful I have plenty of money for my needs as of right now. But even more grateful that I play other TTRPG systems too.
I went into paid GMing for a while and my experience was significantly different. When I started it was 2015(?) and I kept it up for three years. Picked it up again during the scamdemic but that is another story.I was in a city with a large university, most of my, uh, "customers" were students, 20-somethings. Mostly men but f*males weren't really under-represented. I even had one all f*male group. Sessions were always in person at the customers home.Groups were usually compromised by 3 to 4 players. I once went up to 11 players. It was a mess of a game but a pretty good payday since I did ask double the usual fare.I charged 30€ per session for a three hour session. It was an extra 20€ flat if they wanted a time extension, they (almost)always wanted a time extension. All-nighters weren't uncommon.I usually had 3 to 4 sessions a week. All in all, significantly better than minimum wage at the time.I run a variety of games. Most of the time the group knew what they wanted sometimes we discussed it together. Most common games were 5e, CoC, 3.5e, SotDL and 13 Age by order of popularity. I did a lot of prep. I always brought (painted)miniatures, maps, battle-maps, a variety of print outs, a soundtrack, a variety of dice etc. I always offered to draw their characters for free or even create a custom character sheet.I started with one-shots and if the group seemed hooked I moved to 3-6 sessions campaigns. I generally made sure the campaign would end when the semester or the academic year was over and everyone went on vacations.Most people genuinely wanted to play the game and learn the rules.Big Problem players were booted post haste , not by me but the players themselves. Less tolerance for wasted time and pointless drama when you actually have to pay for your gaming time.Most groups paid for my food and drinks. Alcohol and cannabis use wasn't uncommon but it became a problem only once and it was f*moids fault as usual.
>>98218394Nice man. My classic traveller game just started we did a combat tutorial and now I'm rolling potential patrons.
>>98218539>€Well, that explains a lot about the differences with OP's post.
>>98218431This. Arguably he's giving retards the sort of retarded game they want, but even ignoring whether it's ethical to do so while knowing that's not how the game is played, he's "venting" about making bags of cash for the low effort grift of pretending to play pretend.
>flakes, drunks, never touched the rulebookI thought that the barrier of payment was supposed to filter out trash like that? With people investing more of their attention into something they put their money on?
>>98218367>The DM asks them to roll a d20; on anything but a natural 2+, he tells them "You hit!"Apologies; I meant anything but a natural 1 or 2.>>98218539I imagine that tabletop gaming culture is very much different in your own country, yes.>Most common games were 5e, CoC, 3.5e, SotDL and 13 Age by order of popularity.Good to see another 13th Age GM in the wild, truly.
This feels like it was written to be emotionally gratifying while also being bait for us so I don't believe it.
>>98218619If it was anyone but touhoufag I wouldn't believe it.
Sounds like these players are in a position where paying for the experience allows them to vacate any personality responsibility towards learning the game and rules, probably part of the appeal of paying, and your DM is happy to facilitate that. I doubt any of these people will continue to play or would even be interested in playing once the cultural focus moves on.But you're pretty easily fooled 2hu so you may just be being trolled here.
>>98218573For these guys it sounds more like because they're paying they feel they can do all these things.
>>98218431>Scamming shallow idiots with more money than sense is still being a scammerAre you insane? This guy is an actual hero, gatekeeping these retards from the actual hobby and sparing us their idiocy. That he gets paid for it is just compensation, though whether it's worth the mental toll is clearly causing him some debate.
>>98218358I am probably to Slav/European to relate fully. However, I run games for randoms for free.> His clients are almost all white or white-passingThere are only white people around me, so there is no difference for me.> one or two almost always ghost on the session without sending advance notice. They either think that "D&D" is the only RPG in the world, or that it would be such a hassle to learn another system. Checks out. However, knowing rules don’t really make a player good by default.> They do not know how any of the rules work, they do not bother to roleplay, and they do not remember anything about the last session.I’d say young girls are pretty much interested in roleplay. People usually remember main points, but not the details.> Players frequently show up for game night drunk, high, or both.Can’t relate.> The DM asks them to roll a d20; on anything but a natural 2+...Idk, it is too silly to pull out. But playing improv. for toddlers and not bothering with rules whatsoever indeed sounds like D&D 5e 2026.> a player declares their turn in combat to be "I attack" or "I cast a spell" without specifying anything...I’ve encountered only girl that dumb maybe out of 20(?) people. Pretty much anybody understands hit-points, spell slots, armor class and damage eventually. I also omit initiative and make all rolls player-facing and stuff, so combat moves like 4-5 times faster.> Maybe the archetypal tiefling bard is popular in other communities, but not this one. Here, it is mostly bros playing "male human”Drank dwarves, elven rangers, wizards, artificers and rouge/bard tieflings everywhere. I don’t mind.> He does not even bother trying to maintain a consistent setting, whether published or homebrew.So lame.> best DM ever!Some people call me that, but I think D&D is a bad product, and I am far from the best.
>>98218873You're retarded. These faggots aren't in the hobby at all and never will be, they're having a dumb casual experience for tourists. The idea that there's any "mental toll" when he's clearly putting in less effort than the average 12 year old GM trying to at least vaguely follow the rules is laughable.
>>98218358>>98218367>>98218376Reminds me of anon playing with yellow dragons and multicolored emeralds.Aside from the ghosting, I fail to see an issue. Casuals gonna be casual. You can still have fun.
> One current group, consisting of nobodies in the right-wing grifter sphere>all white or white-passing>anime imageOf all the stories that didn't happen, this one didn't happen the most and it was written by a tranny
>>98219470It’s by Edna, which is equally as dubious as a source
>>98218358Kill yourself edna.
>>98218358>>98218367>>98218376>>98218539Nice. Dudes successfully run adult daycare center. I bet in 40 years, this is how oldpeople centers will be run.>5e will be run for decrepit millenials >They still reminisce about their college days where they ran a 5e campaign longer than 3 sessions without it falling apart
>>98218376meant to post this on blogger?
>>98218358>• Yes, many players mention Critical Role, Brennan Lee Mulligan, etc.doesn't line up with >>98218358>One current group, consisting of nobodies in the right-wing grifter sphereor needs more detail otherwise believable enough. >• A non-negligible number of players are really sweaty tryhards who know the ins and outs of damage math and tracking hit points... in video games. When it is time for "D&D," they simply turn off their brain, and all damage and all hit points are suddenly imaginaryis strange, all the rational maximizers I know have a difficult time turning this off but may tie into the party atmosphere being separate.
>>98219739why are you replying to yourself?
>>98219845>found the decrepit 5e fangirlYWNBAW
>>98219916well?
>>98219845Newfag.
>>98218468>Literally an entire post of not just DnD-specific, but 5e-specific problems>None of those are system issues
>>98219952Doompilled retard
>>98218873If those retards engaged with the actual hobby, they'd either realize it's not actually what they want and go do something else, or actually learn to play the game. There's absolutely no upside to what OP's buddy is doing for anyone except him.
>>98219985You play at Edna’s table or something?
>>98218431Thank you for posting this anon. Could not even have imagined to put it better.
>>98218358When you pay money for something, you subconsciously try to convince yourself that the experience was worth it, even if it wasn't. This is not exclusive to tabletop games.People willing to take advantage of idiots also exist, have existed for a long time, and will continue to exist so long as there are idiots to take advantage of. This is not exclusive to tabletop games.Incredibly spoiled and insufferable people who antagonize all their friends and can't figure out why they (if they still have any) don't want to hang out with them, and think they're better off paying something that should be free, also exist. This is not exclusive to tabletop games.To paid DMs and their paypiggies, the game is a means to an end. Gaming is not their hobby, it's probably not even something they're interested in at all, none of them know what they're doing and wouldn't survive 5 minutes in a real table with real people who play real games. We all know this.What was the point of this story again?
>>98220332> Gaming is not their hobbyI used to do paid GMing( i am the euro guy) and gaming absolutely 100% is my hobby. I gamed before I did paid gming, during, and after. I also draw and do graphic design as hobby. I also get paid for it sometimes. I guess I don't really love drawing then?>wouldn't survive 5 minutes in a real table with real people who play real games.Lmao, what does that even mean? "Survive"? Lol what the fuck do you think happens at REAL gaming tables? The hunger games? When your character dies you die IRL?What level of talentless nogames coping is this?
Sounds like the demographic who made Oblivion and Skyrim hits.
>>98219470I figured since I use a paid DM and it's nothing like what OP said. Then again, I don't pay x5 the usual.
>>98219843I think the "many players" do not include the group being charged extra.
>I spoke with a paid GM and he just happens to reaffirm all of the talking points parroted by /tg/ for the past decade about how 5e is bad Amazing totally real story OP.
>>98219962well?
>>98219843Oh no it's quite easy to bring up right wing nobodies and those people."If a liberal cuck like Brennan Lee Mulligan can get famous playing D&D, someone based and redpilled will make so much money."
Sounds like a shit person offering shitty services to shitty people
>>98220754I'm not particularly right wing but I have genuinely thought about setting up a grifter channel for a couple of hobbies I'm into because it seems so easy.
how do you "grift" people with a free youtube channel that doesn't cost anything?
>>98220729Just another mark against touhou. Do actually have 2 people that they play with or are they just figments of their imagination?
>>982208761. Parrot right wing talking points and call everything bad woke2. Get viewers who actually believe your crap3. Get money from ads and sponsorships
>>98218367>If you know how the rules work, you roleplay, or you remember events from the last session, then you are in the top ~1% of playersSo he's had 2-3 of these players?
>>98221244Grifting only works for breadtubers because three quarters of the entire online ecosystem is committed to propping them up. The word didn't even exist until they did, because that's what they are and have always been, astroturfing garbage. Sure there's a lot of chudtubers doing the same, but they're desperately clawing for scraps and would probably be better off flipping burgers because the support infrastructure isn't there to prop them up and they don't have the talent/charisma to take off on their own.TL;DR don't grift, its not going to work out for you, it isn't what you think it is and really has nothing to do with what you think it does.
>>98221244Do leftists think their late night comedy is a grift too
>>98221391>The word didn't even exist until they did,...grifting?
>>98221478If you mean its original usage in the 90's describing 4am guru infomercials, no, it doesn't mean the same thing anymore. Nobody is selling anything.
>>98221505>original usage in the 90s lmao oh wow you are that dumb. Carry on thinking youtube invented grift, you're too far gone for me to talk with.
>>98221515 Ok bye.
>>98218486>>98218570>>98220123You are all retarded. If you get paid to dm by giganormies who dislike all the actual mechanical aspects of game and just want to throw dice and imagine themselves hitting dragon with flaming sword, then thats exactly what you are gonna give them. They are your customers. There are no ethics involved in DMing or right way to DM, you just whatever the fuck your players enjoy.
>>98218431>It sounds like everyone involved, including the DM, is pretty shitty. Scamming shallow idiots with more money than sense is still being a scammer.Why? He's letting a bunch of retards have fun, who would never get to experience D&D otherwise because they would be kicked out of the group.
>>98221244So how is that a grift? Would it still be a grift if they agreed with you?
>>98221505So they're not grifting?
>>98223089"Grifter", like many other words, is a word whose meaning has been a total casualty of the culture wars. It used to mean someone who engaged in literal scams. Now it just means "person who makes money as a direct or indirect consequence of expressing opinions I disagree with".
>>98219739>Be gen Alpha>Circa 2060>Work at nursing home>Have to run DnD night for a bunch of old millennials>They all act like they're super quirky nerds despite being seniors who never even knew the rules
>>98218358Cipher on the frontpage
>>98218358Less retard wrangling combined with actual adult baby-sitting than I expected to read and read from other recounts. Maybe that's for more "amateur", less selective paid GM's who enter that space. I guess the best a paid GM can hope for is merry casuals, the barrier to play and run trpgs is somewhere in the basement with the door open. Any enthusiast can breach it.
>>98219739Fuck you I want something besides 5e
>>98223089Because a lot of those people don't actually consume the media they claim to review. They just get people angry so they watch their videos.Like how The Critical Drinker was suddenly always a Warhammer fan when GW said Custodes can be women.
>>98224204so how is that a grift?
>>98218376>• The DM frequently gets told that he is the "best DM ever!" even though he is fairly sure that these people have played under nobody else.I know if a guy who does paid DMing for a living from his players. He's a complete shitheel. Brainless fucking retard. Barely knows the rules. Looks at non-5e games with disgust and instant derision without knowing anything about them, and then instantly turns around and goes >what if I took the genre/theme/idea of that game and made a 5e campaign like that?Somehow this fucked has dozens of 5 star ratings on startplaying and every single review goes>WOW THIS GUY IS THE BESTEST DM EVER I'VE NEVER PLAYED SUCH AN AWESOME GAME HE WORKS SO HARDand he verifiably does not. Barely even fucking tries. I want to be angry at him, but I am too disgusted by the subhuman behavior of the people who pay him to run shitty games.
>>98222730This ain't the special olympics where giving disadvantaged people a small taste of normality is inherently good. We're talking about grown adults with remedial minds who are responding to being babied like it's the best thing ever.
>>98218539This sounds much more like something that really happened than the OP.
>>98221391leftards have neither talent nor charisma, so clearly that's not a requirement
>>98218358>>98218367>>98218376>this is your brain on 5eHoly fuck my sides thanks for sharing Anon. Maybe I'll move to New York and try something like this
>>98225742DAE direction bad? Them direction bad me direct good! Me contentious about direction, simple thing to get mad at! Ooga booga!You are the niggers you despise, Anon
>>98224705>how is involving myself in inflammatory things that I don't care about a griftAre you retarded on purpose?
>>98221244>>98221391>>98221445Ultimately most of activism, politics, and charity winds up being a grift.>Look at these [Starving Children you didn't know about until just now.] Give me money, and I will [help them!]>(Actually, I'll mostly pay my bills and buy a house but maybe also I'll do something that looks like [helping]. Some small amount of [help] may or may not occur in the midst of all this.)Even "legit" charity and activism requires advertising/propaganda that pulls at people's heartstrings. Cynical actors aren't tethered to ethics or truth, so they can make maximally-effective propaganda for their cause, outcompeting the honest ones.Lets be real here, on the internet, targeting young people, the first wave of grifters were some manner of lefty.
>>98221391The term hasn't changed in its meaning, you just don't know what it means and are using it as a pejorative for people you don't like.A grifter is someone earning money through dishonest means. This means scammers and con men. A person promoting a bad or fraudulent product on TV is a grifter because they are lying about the product or are obviously being insincere about their enthusiasm about it. This applies directly and without modification to internet content. If someone makes content about something and their product is their content what they are doing is grifting if their content is fraudulent or insincere.If they believe what they are saying they are not grifting. If they do not believe what they are saying they are grifting. It is literally that complicated. No amount of someone expressing their genuine opinion about a thing is grifting, it does not matter what that opinion is, or how annoying and repetitive it is, it doesn't matter that their opinion about everything is the same or how much you disagree with them or how big their patreon has gotten. If they think what they are saying is true they're just a commentator that you don't like, not a grifter.We generally give some grace for disclosed advertisements because the disclosure is a (mandatory these days) act of honesty. You may remember the early days of sponsored ads on YouTube where youtubers would just advertise something without saying anything about it, that was absolutely grifting as they were deliberately obfuscating the advertisement, and then also usually lying about it and also being dishonest about their opinion about the product.
>>98218486>and has mentioned that some players are so brazen as to outright bring cocaine to the tableMan, I forget how naive/sheltered most of /tg/ is.
>>98218539I don't know how cost of living is where you are, but, assuming a four hour session with the extension, you're talking about 14.50 an hour in america box, which is pretty fucking terrible.
>>98218619>>98218629Yeah, I legitimately think Edna is too autistic to lie.
>>98218629Ok but consider any retard can pretend to be 2hu.
>>98226270> you're talking about 14.50 an hour in america box, which is pretty fucking terrible.In the US maybe. At the time the minimum wage was 3.5€ an hour and the most common entry level jobs paid around 5-5.5€ an hour. Add to this that I was also registered as unemployed and got me some neetbux and it really wasn't that bad.
>>98218358>One current group, consisting of nobodies in the right-wing grifter sphereThis is the part that sounds weirdest to me only because I have never once in the last 10 years seen or met an RPG/D&D-focused ""community"" irl or online that wasn't hard-left identity-politics monoculture.>He agreed (citing that he highly doubts that anyone involved checks RPG-related Discord servers, subreddits, and such)... although maybe this is the key to escaping that smotheringly ubiquitous stereotype of people. Does leave me wondering how he does find his clientele though.Everything else listed here is a grim depiction, but I believe it. I remember playing 5e with exactly the type of person described here and being blown away by how vapid she turned out to be (I had initially thought these behaviors were a joke and she was only pretending to be retarded). These people are allowed to vote and operate heavy machinery.
>>98225856No, not really.
>>98225868Well? How is it a grift? I just watched a right wing video and I have the same amount of money as before.
>>98226246Just the opppsite.
