I have seen this question come up many times, but I don't know that I've ever seen it properly answered. What TTRPGs have good, solid crafting mechanics? If there aren't many/any, then what do you think it is about tabletop games that make it hard to design crafting?Also for gathering systems?
>>98236436TTRPGs don't have the sort of mechanical game loops were spending a load of time collecting junk to put into a game mechanic to get something less junk is a good use of time, particularly not with other people there. Also you can't experimentally explore the crating system because it's either written in the book for you to read, or up to the GM's whim.
>>98236549This Anon kind of nailed it in one. A deep and intricate crafting system is something entirely relegated to real life and no videogame or RPG could do it service. Killing and politicking in games feels better because it renders a complex event into a few rounds that can be decisive and desirable. Crafting actually feels good in real life, unlike physical or verbal conflicts, but is exceedingly boring on paper and for onlookers. I think if a system offers crafting that it should do it quickly and without a lot of swingy mechanics that could lead to failure for the crafter.
>>98236549OP here,Damn, yeah. You hit the nail on the head in one concise response. I guess I hadn't really thought about it.
>>98236436>What TTRPGs have good, solid crafting mechanics?None.>If there aren't many/any, then what do you think it is about tabletop games that make it hard to design crafting?Ask yourself:>How big of a fan am I of inventory management?If your answer isn't "a really big fan" then you already have your answer.And even if you are a big fan what do you actually get from crafting? Crafting is literally the most inefficient way to get items. The only thing you would get is the chance to explore combinations or be creative but the medium of ttrpgs is terrible for it. Imagine spending a session, or God forbid multiple sessions, combining junk from your inventory and asking your GM if you get something useful as a result. Madness.That doesn't mean that crafting is completely out of the question though, but as I wrote above it's just another way to get items. If item X isn't available and you got your relevant crafting skill you can ask your GM if you can make item X instead by purchasing or gathering the ingredients with your purchasing or gathering skill. 2 dice rolls. Boom. Crafting. It's just not worth it to have an entire system for it or even actual fleshed out mechanics.
Exalted has a really good crafting system, but like mentioned it's only actually fun for the person doing the crafting, and it's a bajillion dice rolls and rerolls and various shenanigans that only the dm and the crafter understands, and at the end you either get "yay, the thing you wanted!" or "nope fuck you, spend another 6 months on it asshole!"But, despite those flaws, it is still the best non-retarded crafting system I've seen in a game.
>>98236436>What TTRPGs have good, solid crafting mechanics?I need an example of what you would consider good crafting mechanics. Then I would say adapt that to a system you play.
>>98236436>What TTRPGs have good, solid crafting mechanics?I have stopped caring about discussing objective quality in terms of game design, because nobody on this board cares about it either, and so I only focus on making what works for me. And I don't look at other RPGs any more, because for all the PbtAs, the !Lasers and Feelings, the D&Ds and their heartbreakers, and all the dice pool-count successes systems, there are none that work for me.It's easier to just make what I want than to look through yet another overhyped corporate or indie product, wasting time looking through it and finding I can't use any of it or have already come up with something similar myself.I've made single-material, single-step crafting and I've made single-material, multi-step crafting.I've experimented with a game in which your characters have to fight enemies just to strip metals off them and retreat before they're killed (because they're so weak) and then craft strong weapons out of the metals to actually stand a chance.I've experimented with a game in which you're constantly crafting parts for a pistol snd switching them out as your harvestry and crafting skills get better and as you find better materials.More people would do well to experiment with ideas they think are cool, than to just settle for a system where they have to beg daddy for what they want.
>>98236549>>98236600Mine doesn't have any of these problems.
>>98236641Then don't include inventory management. Are you stupid?
>>98236436Ask yourself why would you want these? Do you actually think this would lead to fun gameplay at the table with other people around?
>>98238201"Crafting" without inventory management would be like what I described in my first post. I just don't really think that that qualifies as a mechanic or a system.
>>98238345Not OP but I can't be the only one whose players ask for crafting mechanics
>>98236549>Also you can't experimentally explore the crating system because it's either written in the book for you to read, or up to the GM's whim.All this requires is that the outputs be segregated from the procedure and that you have the discipline not to read that part. Which is a lot easier when in a physically separate book. Almost like the Game, or Dungeon, Master having a separate Guide has a very real value to it.Compare it to declining to trawl the wiki of a vidya you're playing.>>98236549>TTRPGs don't have the sort of mechanical game loops were spending a load of time collecting junk to put into a game mechanic to get something less junk is a good use of time>>98236641>>98238362You both seem to be unaware of the notion of hunting down only the unusual "critical" components as a plot-hook or character-ability-specific "bonus" reward (compare necromancers getting a minion from the corpse) or any "ballpark" value-equivalencies in categories in favor of a purist accounting of ALL the parts as individual elements. Of course it's going to be onerous when you refuse to abstract the inputs, but that's one of the first things a crafting system will do because it's so obviously necessary to streamline bookkeeping and resolution.
>>98236436>Here we have the standard TTRPG player>They have unlimited imagination and choice>Yet they demand to be confined by a systems rules>It is akin to an owl choosing to walk between trees>Despite their incredible ability to fly>Such strange creatures>If only they realized that they don't need to be told how to have fun
>>98239426>You are looking for Flametongue the legendary sword whose blade is made out of flame.>You are looking for flame ore, the legendary ore that can create flaming blades. You have to bring it back to the strider forge for a master dwarven blacksmith to forge into a sword!Its just getting an item with extra steps. That is neither a crafting mechanic or a crafting system. It's a bog standard side quest.
>>98239477>Its just getting an item with extra steps.That is definitionally what crafting is. Having one or more of those steps demand you interact with the game world is superior to the all-encompassing Magic Mart of D&D 3.X whiteroom convention.You seem to be hung up on it not being a perfect simulation with perfect player agency. TTRPGs are not required to do that, the "game" part is exclusively about the constraints thereof.>It's a bog standard side quest.It can be a bog standard side quest if you leave it to the maximally-reduced cliff-notes. But if it's plugged into a system for crafting, each element's mechanical statistics can have substitutes found, reflecting the players' understanding of the world, tools to affect it, and interests regarding aspects of it. Perhaps the call for the Flame Ore is because it's a normally very tricky to establish mix of properties, but if the party's got a master alchemist then synthesizing something close-enough for a mildly higher expense that doesn't involve a long-distance mining expedition will see risks avoided and time saved.Yes, this gets annoyingly fiddly. Anything to do with broad-use plot-structure and world-logic inevitably ends up that way.
>>98239477Yes, but when I give out magic items, they are simple and random to a degree. If you want a specific item in my campaign and don't have ungodly gold stores, you're better of trying to make it.>>98239536It takes a level of finesse for sure.
>>98239453Games have rules.
>>98239557>Rules that were arbitrarily made up in the first place...Sure.
>>98239536You seem to be missing the point of the question. The point isn't simulation at all, but to reproduce the sort of enjoyment people get from crafting systems in video games. Quests to obtain specific items to create set items don't achieve that at all.
>>98239570Do you believe there's no difference between a structured set of rules that create a consistent experience versus someone just making shit up as they go along and changing outcomes every time?
>>98239607>The point isn't simulation at all, but to reproduce the sort of enjoyment people get from crafting systems in video games.Firstly, what gave you the impression that imitating vidya crafting satisfaction is a serious part of OP's question? Secondly, target-farming for fixed recipes is in fact quite common in vidya.>Quests to obtain specific items to create set items don't achieve that at all.That's you insisting on your own strawman. I repeat:>But if it's plugged into a system for crafting, each element's mechanical statistics can have substitutes found, reflecting the players' understanding of the world, tools to affect it, and interests regarding aspects of it. Perhaps the call for the Flame Ore is because it's a normally very tricky to establish mix of properties, but if the party's got a master alchemist then synthesizing something close-enough for a mildly higher expense that doesn't involve a long-distance mining expedition will see risks avoided and time saved.
>>98238362Why?
>>98239913Why what? Why, imo, a couple of skill rolls don't qualify as a separate system or mechanic?
>>98239453If you hate games, you should go to >>>/lit/ or >>>/qst/.
>>98239663If this is supposed to be a response to >>98239652, you are severely delusional, and I won't waste any more time on you.
>>98239663>what gave you the impression that imitating vidya crafting satisfaction is a serious part of OP's questionNot being a complete fucking retard. I can see where I lost you, but this power lets me understand that the obvious context of the question is someone that enjoys video game crafting wanting a comparable experience in tabletop games.Your suggestion needs either a huge library of defined resources or ad-hoc GM rulings. The former is impractical and the latter isn't a system.
>>98239961Skill rolls are mechanics. What's your reasoning?
>>98239426Good thing no one ever runs and plays games. Christ what an idiot
>>98239536magic mart better
>>98239570Yes, retard.
>>98240047>Not being a complete fucking retard. I can see where I lost you, but this power lets me understand that the obvious context of the question is someone that enjoys video game crafting wanting a comparable experience in tabletop games.The first line gave ME the impression that OP was wanting a thread to dig deeper into a recurrent subject, thus diluted away from any one specific impetus.>Your suggestion needs either a huge library of defined resources or ad-hoc GM rulings. The former is impractical and the latter isn't a system....No, my suggestion needs a very meaty crafting system governing the creation of new materials with novel combinations of underlying properties, but once you HAVE that system you don't actually need to be defining a big series of materials because it covers generating more procedurally, which is further expedited by the idea of "ballpark" value-equivalencies in categories. "Starting" materials can even be amortized by reference to other elements of the system, like a robust hit-location based combat dynamic neatly tying monster abilities to body-parts which can in turn already be rated for various other mechanics and so there doesn't NEED to be a dedicated entry for their reagent properties because the crafting rules can just point at that pre-existing category-and-scale rating.Yes, such an approach spirals out into a complete nightmare to develop for "properly" for all the interdependency. This is part of the very, very long list of hangups in the way of my own abomination of a heartbreaker.
>>98238198Prove it. Post your systems.
>>98241520And, in that scenario, crafting is just another skill roll, not a separate mechanic or system.
>>98241971So you agree it's a mechanic, in contradiction to your first post. Great job, retard.
I win.
