A huge theme in myths, legends, and literary fantasy is magic focused on negotiating with or commanding inhuman entities. However, this theme feels incredibly neglected in RPGs that I know of. For example, in D&D the Druid doesn't need to use Druidic to speak with nature spirits, he just uses a spell that does whatever it is he wants. In L5R, shugenja are similar, they speak the language of the kami but everything is just "Jade Strike" or "Fire Sword" that does the same thing every time.In 13th Age Demonologists have no need to actually do anything with the demons beyond summon them and not flub the skill roll.And so on and so forth.Is there a way to handle power from foreign entities more richly?
>>98246829The reason that a lot of games have simple mechanics for things like communicating with supernaturals is because it's a very social element of the story - and social rules in general are hard to add mechanics too without making conversations feel too gamey.
>>98246829See Animism in Mythras. Want to make arrows catch fire? You're going to have to find a fire spirit and convince it to join you Pokemon style, feeding it with your mystic energy while he's with you. Or you can force it, if you're strong enough and it's a weaker one.No specific spells, it's all negotiation based
>>98246829I play old school D&D, and I make sure to let players know that when a reaction roll isnt "hostile" that monsters (you can 'speak' with) are recruitable, usually requiring their XP value in tribute + a hiring roll, and you can grab yourself the medusa, etc (until you leave the dungeon (or even that floor).
>>98246829>However, this theme feels incredibly neglected in RPGs that I know of.Because caster players already take too much time taking their turns gawking at the spell lists as if they were seeing it for the first time in their lives, I don't wait another 10 minutes while they roleplay to negotiate casting a fireball.
>>98247928Not OP but am passing lying familiar with Mythras, and it kinda has the same issue. Yes, the effect is open-ended, but there aren't many guidelines for the spirits to have personality or to give you a pattern for negotiations, tribute, etc.
>>98248261id use intelligent sword tables desu
Bump for an interesting topic amidst the hellscape of generals
>>98248324>bump!>nothing to sayfuck offif you want players to recreuit demons, make it clear. show them some safe examples
>>98248363I want to contribute to OP but being a wagie has fried my creativity
>>98248456
>>98246829The problem basically boils down to the need for clear, consistent rules and effects to facilitate gameplay. In theory, the process of using one of these abilities is meant to represent those negotiations, with the exact roleplay being left to the imagination and implementation of the player and GM. But, so that the character’s capabilities are measurable and understandable, the effects are predefined to avoid the character being pure “Mother may I?”Every extreme I’ve seen brings its own issues.>you can shortcut past the whole concept because the mechanics don’t require you to engage with it>you have to succeed on a roll to persuade the otherworldly powers to aid you, which you can either cheese to make trivial or fails to account for scenarios in which local spirits might WANT you to do what you’re trying to do>the system is so heavily predicated on negotiation that the character might as well be freeformAnd all that isn’t even getting into the fact that the mythohistorical traditions you’re talking about are more usually structured around rituals and invocations, rather than six-second turns in the middle of pitched combat.
>>98246829I think the reason why this doesn't come up more often is because it would require a lot more work for the DM. In example of L5R I love the setting, I think shugenja and kami are cool. But I wouldn't like having to bargain and coerse with them to cast every spell. I think that is why in setting a lot of kami are simple-minded.
Do y'all niggas even conjure demons to fight fire?
>>98248261>>98248821Seems to me like something which could be solved with a minigame of some sort.The hucksters from Deadlands is a perfect example:>Strike a deal with the devil through gamblingThis covers your "magic is a pact with inhuman entities" part>Casting spells is done with playing pokerSo magic is now directly tied to this relationship, in a way that's completely gameable and doesn't require any GM fiat.
>>98246829Boring to integrate. See Stormbringer.
>>98246829>Is there a way to handle power from foreign entities more richly?You'd likely want to have a "meaty" social and/or hireling subsystem among more routinely used rules for it to be "pointing" at, as otherwise it's really conspicuous complexity for an intermediate step.
I kinda get where OP is coming from and I think a lot of the problem isn't just "use a social system" but in the area of making whatever entity you're dealing with sufficiently inscrutable without being completely lolrandumb.
>>98252903The real problem is really just what the player-characters have to give or do. If a tree spirit wants a cup of water in exchange for tearing down not!Isengard, that's too easy. If a hod demands a lifelong geas in exchange for one lightning bolt...maybe that's OK? A demon wanting your soul for +5 to your Bluegrass skill is gonna be too much for everyone but that one guy.
>>98246829Certainly. It largely depends on how much roleplaying your group is into, how much power wank and spotlight you're willign to give to summoners, and how the system is designed. The big part of this is 'spotlight' and 'roleplay'. If you have one summoner , then you're giving them a lot of spotlight, and you have to balance it for the other players somehow. If everyone can do it, then it's more about roleplay and having them help each other get the best deals and summoning stuff. (Arcanum and other wizard mains are good for this). If you're using PF or D&D, have the player name and use the same summons every time since D&D and PF summons don't actually die when they are killed. Make them temporary NPCs, give them personalities, and let the players have fun with them - again, careful of the spotlight issue.
>>98246829I remember a Pathfinder book mentioning examples of the kinds of things that Fiends and other Outsiders like to be offered when summoned for their services. I think mechanically it just improved social rolls to get them on your side, but it's a jumping off point.
>>98255235I think it's The Book of the Damned from first edition.
>>98254100>>98252903As a GM I agree with this, the hard part would be coming up with this on the fly. And not just having it be the same all the time, for example if you're always using spells from some water-being then just doing the same thing with a cup of water over and over.In some games it would be easier than others, for example a Conanesque game where the magic is mainly used by the villains or an alt!hist-fantasy game like whatever >>98248924 is from.
