How do you make skill check challenges interesting? A few days ago I was running a one shot and I had set it within a crumbling mine. I had thought it would be cool set piece to set up a minecart ride where the players had to dodge falling stalactites and other falling debris. I set up a clock with four segments and each successes check filled a segment and each failed check they'd take a small amount of damage. In my head it seemed pretty good but when it came to actually putting it into play it just felt so very underwhelming. I know without being there you can't actually tell me what went wrong but instead I was hoping for advice on how others run things similar, especially if players ended up thinking it was a neat or exciting part of the game. I feel like this is pretty system agnostic as many systems have some kind of skill or attribute check system in place.
>literal, actual railroading>it wasn't funGee OP, I dunno.
>>98256608Stop trying to play video games
>>98256621Trains and railroads are cool though. I fucking love them.>>98256625I wasn't really trying to make it the mine level though. I just thought a collapsing ceiling was a cool and dramatic set piece. Was there no way I could have done it better? How could I have made them feeling there was a rush and things were dangerous?
>>98256608Choices.Give them choices. The track splits, you can go slow or fast, shoot at obstacles or brace for impact, etc etc. Candyland is boring, and that's what your example was.
>>98256608As with most things, its a matter of having flexibility for the players to express problem solving skills. I assume most of the cart ride were things like 'roll Vehicle Operation to not eat shit'? If thats the case, allow for things like your party big guy shielding the team from the stalactites with a shield, improvised or otherwise. Or the ranged weapons guy to spot and shoot them down before they become a problem. Or the team to synchronously tackle one side of the cart to temporarily tilt it, using the cart itself to block the hazards.The issue is not necessarily that a minecart ride where they avoid obstacles is bad, its that their input as choice makers didn't matter much at all for the period.
>>98256608>I set up a clock with four segments and each successes check filled a segment and each failed check they'd take a small amount of damageYou were using clocks really wrong. Each segment is a progressively negative but also different thing the players can engage with, not just damage over and over again. >the lights dim and everything rumbles >the falling debris smashes a section of rail and the players have to make a quick switch to a different track >the rail car looses a wheel and becomes harder to control >a huge chasm tears apart in front of the cart all the while there should be combat or something else with another mine cart with opponents in it. Do not link clock progression to skill checks. Link it to player actions.
>>98256656if there's time pressure consider an hourglass . It's a silly little prop but it works. just set it out and don't say anything. If they go too slow and the sand runs out, subject them to some of your horrible fetishes as a punishment.
>>98256608>I know without being there you can't actually tell me what went wrongI can probably guess.You either [A] didn't know what your group finds interesting, and just ran with what you wanted or [B] executed what you think your group finds interesting in a way that bored them.You can solve this issue and possibly prevent future incidents by finding out what interests them in terms of concepts executed through gameplay, instead of crying to a bunch of strangers on the internet who very likely have different interests than your group.Was I too harsh?I've answered this fucking question multiple dozens of times, and you retards still never learn. "Interesting" is down to the individual.
>>98256914>I've answered this fucking question multiple dozens of times, and you retards still never learn.Its because you don't read the posts and just regurgitate generic nothings anon, not that you're harsh.
>>98256678>The issue is not necessarily that a minecart ride where they avoid obstacles is bad, its that their input as choice makers didn't matter much at all for the period.I suppose I could have told them I was open to any thing. They never offered any suggestions so I just went with the original thing that I said. We did have a tank guy who shields others during combat and even a ranged guy whose abilities let him shoot an enemy's attack off target. I guess none of us were thinking that open. Thinking about it like that I could have structured it more like a battle. >>98256785>You were using clocks really wrong.Possibly. It was my second time using clocks in a game. I used them the first time the previous week for another one shot with the same system and I thought I used them correctly. >>98256914>Was I too harsh?Yeah, but mostly because I think you're misreading my intention. I'm not crying to you guys because my friends thought my execution was bad, they couldn't care less and can't offer any real advice other than "I liked it". I'm simply trying to learn how to do similar things better on a mechanical level by getting advice and through examples where others thought it was done well.
>>98257146Not your fault, that game is using them wrong too. What is that trash?
>>98257163Fabula Ultima.
>>98257146>I suppose I could have told them I was open to any thing. They never offered any suggestions so I just went with the original thing that I said. We did have a tank guy who shields others during combat and even a ranged guy whose abilities let him shoot an enemy's attack off target. I guess none of us were thinking that open. Thinking about it like that I could have structured it more like a battle.You honestly have to think pretty openly with these sorts of things. Even throwing out an obvious open question like 'Does anyone have anything unorthodox they want to try?' can lead to players having their creative juices flow. No shame on you though, trying to prompt creative problem solving out of players can be pretty hard sometimes, especially when they think of the game as a bunch of moves they can do in combat and 'that other shit the GM brings up some times'.
>>98257171>Fabula Ultima.Entered into the Book of Fuck That. Clocks are not well suited to purely mechanical resolution, they're a narrative emphasis tool for storygames.
>>98256608A long time ago, someone posted a pdf on /tg/ of a tabletop RPG that was meant to simulate retro video games. The concept was that you could take maps from classic platformer games and it would convert them into world maps that your group would play through. At the time I didn't save it, and then immediately wanted to read through it to see how it handled things like jumping over obstacles and holes and such... Despite thoroughly searching, I never found it.
>>98256608What setting worldbuilding?
I will admit, I never really fully grok'ed clocks until I played the Citizen Sleeper video game which uses them all over the place.The whole game is basically a menu of clocks. Nearly everything in the game is represented by them. Clocks for getting to know someone, clocks for long-term projects, clocks for diminishing resources, clocks for everything! No animations, no turn-based combat, no maps, just clocks.
>>98256608I love clocks. I use clocks extensively. I use clocks where my players can see them, I use clocks in my own notes. I use clocks of various sorts to automate about 90% of my setting. I love clocks so much it's unreal.Having said that: never use a clock you don't have to. They're not magic. They're a convenient way to track 1) state, 2) what changes that state, and 3) what the new state is when it's changed.A fight between three factions on a boat trying to navigate between Scylla and Charybdis while it's on-fire and sinking with a ticking bomb on it is something that would need multiple nested clocks to manage.But a 5v6 skirmish doesn't need that. "Roll or bump your head" doesn't need that. "Repair armor" doesn't need that. And adding clocks to something that doesn't need clocks improves nothing and frequently just makes it even worse.tl;dr - Don't use clocks in hope of making boring things interesting. Use clocks in hopes of making complicated things possible.
>>98257146>I'm simply trying to learn how to do similar things better on a mechanical levelThen lead with that instead of saying retarded shit like "how do I make [thing] interesting".Making something better addresses it on an objective, constructive level, whole "interesting" is vague and subject to the individual.Learn how to communicate better; the English language has about 130,000 words currently in use, so there's no excuse for being unable to convey what you mean.
>>98257916
>>98256672>Choices.The way most systems design skill challenges is explicitly to reduce choices and disincentivize the ones that are not on your character sheet with a large number next to it.Which is part of why they suck so much. The other part is they make the math too complicated, leading either to nearly impossible challenges or complete pushovers when the GM misjudges what is called for.
>>98257916cringe pedant
>>98258307The point to skills/skill challenges is to promote group dynamic and force "that player" to stop hogging the spotlight all the time. It also allows classes to be decent at things that are not typical to that archtype if the players chooses they want to lean into that sort of thing. If no one is good at the skill in question, you are supposed to figure out alternative methods to getting around the skill challange.
>>98256608If I had to take a guess, you did the same thing too much. The only penalty basically being the same thing every time is kind of dull after you've said it three times already. It moves from "aw man I failed the skill check" to "okay we know what's going on here" pretty quick. Vary up your penalties. I also like what I saw about opening the table for novel suggestions as it gives good room for improv skills to shine for both you and your party. For example the shield fighter could block incoming stalactites to progress the clock slower but protect the party from damage, or the ranger could utilize his marksmanship skills to remove a dangerous hazard before it becomes a problem and making the skill check easier. Descriptive variety also matters, the moment you go "oh okay you take X damage for failing" with no other fluff it's generally going to come off as you giving up on making the situation actually interesting.
>>98256608Everything >>98256672, >>98256678, and >>98256810 said is true. Just do that.>>98257190>trying to prompt creative problem solving out of players can be pretty hard sometimesThat and most players have an IQ comparable to a squirrel with down syndrome.
>>98257916Are you retarded?
>>98256608The problem is that the players are not actually doing anything. I would have thought that would be obvious.
>>98258673You're right but also fuck you
>>98256608If anything requires zero player input, it sucks. You can automate that scene? Throw it out. Not rocket science, players generally don't appreciate just being a dice-rolling vessel. It's not even video-gamey, that's worse: it's performing as a video-game engine.
>>98256608"The mine is collapsing. What do you sacrifice to get out? Wealth, health, rapport with your friends, or something else? Choose a price and roll to see how much."Wow, jeez, and now we don't need to roll 13.023 skill checks with the same failure consequence for the next two hours!
>>98257146>fartbula shartimaHow did i know?
>>98257916You type a lot to say so little. Stop.
>>98258752>It's not even video-gamey, that's worse: it's performing as a video-game engine.Video gameyness is kino if done right. OP is a clear example of railroading you just want to bitch about video games.
>>98258763I 100% agree and swear I have to give this same advice to new or tarded GMs daily. If you want a consequence that matters, ignore dice and make a wager. If you want to gamble, throw dice. Some moments are a gambling endeavor like combat, but most are wagers like asking the hitman what he's willing to give up to succeed in his, frankly insane, assassination plot against a prime minister.
>>98256608Proper presentation turns a dice roll into battle of wills and cosmic order, a fight to the death or a last stand. Start speaking with intensity when your game needs it, even if it seems cringe. Cut off jargon, outside world, and start hooking players into the event. Good but simple prose, dominant attitude, powerful adjectives and dreadful details. If your railcar is being approached or approaches a critical challenge, tell the party that they hear something.. Then have them on their toes before you give them the challenge. Off-topic jokes tend to be fun but will kill immersion. Make sure your group gets them out of the way first. Also, not every skill check has to be epic, the mundane ones ought to mellow safer areas.
