One sympathized with xenos, the other was a pacifist. Both signs of weakness and possible roots of rebellion for the Emperor

one of them said xenos are nice actually
the other one started its own empire

>>98261803
>>98261806
Where do people get the idea of the 2nd being a xenos lover? I think the timeline is he was purged from the records well after the rangdan.

In the book Fulgrim it implies that trying to hybridise human and xenos biology is a crime worse than heresy.
Heresy (falling to chaos essentially) is already considered the worst possible crime. That only resulted in the traitor primarches being disgraced and having their statues covered up. The lost legions had their existence completely erased.
Logically this means there must be a crime worse than heresy.
This could only mean something more abhorrent like hybridisation of marines with xenos biology

>>98261784
One was gay, the other was trans.

The Enperor had to send Russ, who knew the secrets of homophobia from dealing with Lion El’Jonson, to purge their taints.

>>98261869
It’s astounding how fake and gay the HH books retroactively make the entire setting.

>>98261875
you can reach this conclusion with out the HH books using pre-HH series lore anyway

>>98261855
another possibility is one of these legions experimented with reproduction to make more marines after the lost too many from the Rangdan xenocides
And the Emperor didn't want reproducing marines.

>>98261855
They both had to do something REALLY bad that also didn't involve chaos because chaos influence was later down the line and one of the most obvious choices is xenos influence.

>>98261886
I don’t think I can reach the conclusion the Imperium always sucked shit, nothing was ever good, 40k isn’t a fallen setting at all, the Emperor was retarded, the Emperor was simultaneously a Reddit atheist but hated heresy, the worst crime, except for mega-double-xenos heresy which was even worse without your gay little book series actually faggot. Look this shit:
>That only resulted in the traitor primarches being disgraced and having their statues covered up.
What an astonishing failure of imagination to conceive of a galactic empire then talk about statues being covered up oh, and btw, secret LORE DROP from your fav author on mega-double-heresy hints there nerds ;>). Some nigger who has never left their small town where there’s a statue of some local worthy, has never taken in anything but slop, and has no actual understanding of devotion, grandeur and disgrace. Just a shameful lack of effort, from the first to the last.

>>98261921
Defying the prohibition on AI would be another candidate for the kind of behavior that could have gotten a Primarch executed.

>>98261949
ok you are just mentally ill. The list of chapters that went traitor and the lost [redacted] legions were published in the 3rd Space marine codex

>>98261958
maybe they made ai marines. The Tau made artificial marines and this horrified actual space marines

>>98261965
>you are mentally ill because you don’t like my comfort books
Why are you like this? Are you this fragile in your everyday life? Yes the “lost legions” were there, all this fuckass lazy “””lore””” that only serves to undermine the setting wasn’t.

>>98261977
The point you retard is yo can deduce that if the Imperium is ok with merely labelling the chaos chapters as traitors and not redacting their names.
That what ever the lost legions did was worse than falling to Chaos.
You low iq slavic shit posting moron

>>98261987
That doesn’t actually follow at all. It’s a reasonable theory, but the two proscribed legions were so proscribed when the Emperor was around and the Imperium was actively ruled and all later censorship came after that. So the decision-maker also changed and therefore we can’t say the same circumstances would necessarily be treated the same before and after.

In reality we know the two lost legions were originally there so fans could hold onto a little corner of the setting for their own theories and models, until GW decided to choke the entire thing with slop by releasing infinity books about it.

>>98262009
it completely follows. If the traitor legions committed THE worst crime in the Imperium (going traitor, falling to Chaos, worshipping pagan Gods etc)
Then it stands to reason the lost legions being covered up had to have committed a worse crime.

>>98262037
Well, except for the part about how those two legions were actually eradicated, and thus it was even possible to damnatio memoriae them. All of the traitor legions are still alive and well, so deleting all records of them would simply make the imperium less able to defend against them. The situations are completely different.

>>98261784
Well, the erasure of the records related to whatever they did would imply that knowing the nature of their deeds would effectively constitute an infohazard that threatened the continued existence of the Imperium.

Something simple like joining with the xenos or building robots wouldn't seem to rise to that level. That's just ordinary heresy. My bet would be on something more fundamentally troubling, like stumbling upon evidence that the Emperor was actually just a science project from the Dark Age of Technology, or that the Emperor had entered into a pact with the Dark Gods, etc.

>>98261784
One died in the Rangdan genocides, and a loss that early in the crusade was a failure too great to forgive.
The other turned into a chaos spawn.

i have a fun theory that early in humanity's space colonisation a break away faction of people like Chinese or Japanese established an independent civilisation on the far edge of the galaxy (and part of this fun theory is they influenced the Tau, thats why the Tau are asian themed)
When one of the lost legions made contact with them, instead of converting them to the Imperium they defected.
This outraged the Emperor and he covered it up because he didn't want this knowledge of there being a rival empire out there and that an entire legion defected (without chaos even being involved). Precedent for this could be also the Emperor hiding the existence of the Leagues of Votann throughout the Heresy.

>>98262041
except they werent eradicated, we dont know anything about them. Except they exist for people to make their own fan chapters, which means they still exist.
Self owned yourself there

>>98262043
in Fulgrim, Fabius wants to combine chaos alien biology with marines and they have to cover it up because its a crime worse than treachery

>>98262059
Wait, so your argument is that they did something so absolutely horrible that emps himself declared them removed from all records for all eternity, but ALSO that emps did not bother to rectify the situation in any way whatsoever? That they were left to their own devices, peacefully, and the fact that there is no evidence of them at all even ten thousand years later is merely a coincidence?

The easy answer is that the warp entity inside them wasn't stable enough and simply needed to be put down.

>>98262081
no, simply we do not know what they did or what the outcome was and if any remnants of them exist because it was covered up.

>>98261784
Best we never know as it means their mystery is gone and their appeal if they had any.
Their following nowadays is a source of annoyance because people say they were female as headcanon to just try and bait out rent free chuds.
We’re they ever “confirmed” to be males in the HH books at least until retconned?

They used vat grown marines like servitors but then used abominable intelligence to control them

>>98261784
Its obvious; they developed the means to make female marines. They were expunged from the records because Emps told them they needed to hide outside of the Imperium until such time humanity needed its finest, most perfect warriors.

>>98261784
Post your models and I will tell you.

>>98262269
Hey clanker. The janny applications are being sent out. In the meantime how about you post your models first if you’re not a bot for a change?

>>98262293
Why do you care about the lore for a game you dont even play?

>>98262307
You need a software update. It’s pretty cute seeing these text patterns.
I’m not gonna feed your LLM until you post models first.

>>98261869
>Logically this means there must be a crime worse than heresy.
Nonsense. It just means the only one in a position to cover up a primarch's existence was the Emperor, and that after the siege of Terra he was in no position to do so. Both of these things should be self-evident anyway.
They could have just died, and he hushed it up to avoid a morale hit. Leaving conspicuous gaps in the legion numbering makes that unlikely, but the point is it doesn't tell us what they did to deserve it or whether it was a punishment at all.
>>98262009
>In reality we know the two lost legions were originally there so fans could hold onto a little corner of the setting for their own theories and models
Not really; the vast number of undocumented chapters already gave us that. The point was to depict the Imperium as so old and decrepit that it had completely lost all records of significant pieces of its own past.

>>98262577
>They could have just died, and he hushed it up to avoid a morale hit.
But it was Guilliman and Dorn who came up with the idea to erase all memory of them, and apparently everyone else important enough just agreed. Would those two, and especially Dorn, consider it an unmitigated tragedy that must be covered to the point of brainwashing themselves? Because they never considered purging records or brainwashing when they learned Ferrus had died, and they actually liked him. Or if Angron blew up mid campaign I doubt he's getting more than a very sad parade-funeral.
Then again I also really don't like thinking about the whole lost Primarch situation so whatever. I can't look at any part of it and not think "what is this Silver-Age capeshit plotpoint?"

>>98261784
It's a psy-op, they never existed, there was nothing to expunge. A gaslighting tactic by the Emperor. The threat turned out to be somewhat empty, though

>>98261921
It's definitely not chaos because the Palace still has murals of the 18. And you could argue that the Heresy was so big that it couldn't be swept under the rug, but even if that's the case there wouldn't be a reason to continue keeping them secret after the Heresy actually ends.

>>98262786
>it was Guilliman and Dorn who came up with the idea
Sounds like modern HH nonsense to me.
>what is this Silver-Age capeshit plotpoint?
I just told you: it's not a fucking plot point at all. It's a deliberate hole in the fluff that tells you the Imperium's records are so fucked they can lose a tenth of the most significant armies they ever had. The whole point is to not have an answer.

>>98261784

They are the Alpha Legion, before rebranding as one.

Their primarchs are Alpharius, KIA and Omegon (founder of the Deathwatch and in stasis inside the innards of Fortress Erioch).

>>98261784
Their geneseed was unstable and mutated, like how certain chapters would just spontaneously mutate into monsters.
So the missing Primarchs and their legions were the first incidences of this happening and revealed the true nature of space marines and Primarchs, basically the Emperor's very own daemon princes and lesser daemons.
They had to be put down and erased because it would have threatened the entire Imperium and Primarchs project.
Likely scenario is the mutated into monsters and went on an unspeakable rampage and murdered/ate an entire planet of civilians and had to be nuked from orbit.

>>98261855
>>98261784
2nd has some information on him. Fulgrim considered him a hypocrite, and according to Fabius Bile, who knew about him, he took his legion on expeditions to the Ymga Monolith. He was later purged in the wake of the Rangdan a Xenocides.

From Dorn it's further known that whatever 2nd got up to, it was somehow worse than the Horus Heresy itself. But, his legion was not at fault, the problem was specifically 2nd, and the legion was indeed reintegrated into the Fists and Ultramarines, Dorn and Guilliman argued in favour of the plan and later agreed to have themselves mindwiped to forget that their legions were anything but their own geneseed.

2nd fucked up, and fucked up BAD. The guy 1000% delved into shit he shouldn't and it was likely with Necrons, and had to be purged.

But that's all there is.

>>98263088

Oh baby I hope 2nd was the "human" contact the necrons needed to do their pariah thing.

Back in old lore, pariahs were soul transfered and the only necrons that could "talk"

>>98261784
It doesnt matter because their absence means everything already. In fact, implying that they were ever found or joined the Emperor already ruins them
20 is the number of Primarchs the Emperor created. This is significant in itself, but in Christian mysticism the number 20 signals wholeness and completion, it is a divine number.
20 Primarchs were created and scattered, but only 18 returned. This incompleteness in the Emperors/the Imperiums tale signalizes that long before the Heresy something was already wrong. Two men who should have been there never were, the tale of the Imperium misses two vital pieces, it is one that was never meant to be. Perhaps it wasnt a curse exactly, but it was definitely a bad omen that foreshadowed what was to come. Its almost like the Universe, not Chaos, but "the Universe" itself rejected the Emperor, which is why his plans were already broken before they truly began.
Whether they died on the planet they were stranded on as infants, or if they refused to join the Emperor, or if they already went into the warp long before the Emperor arrived doesnt matter and thats why it is a beautiful mystery, because what happened to them is secondary to what their absence means. It could have been bad luck, fate, chaos, the eldar, it changes nothing.

>>98261784
He once mixed up II and 11 and was so embarrassed that he purged them both so that it would never happen again.

>>98261784
2nd Primarch was the most humane of them, for better and for worse. His silence and lack of humour was the strain of constant warfare weighting him in ways that other Primarchs didn't suffer. He learned at the Yimga Monolith about the War in Heaven, and that his own experiences were a small sample of the total violent madness that plagued the galaxy since the Mesozoic Era. Then he was part of the Rangdan Xenocides. It was too much. The Primarch did the one heresy that Man, Xenos and Chaos can agree on: he rejected war, became a pacifist!? He convinced a part of his Legion, plus some among the other Legions. After facing the consequences of trying to be a decent person in 40K (SQUAT YOU 2nd!), his gene-sons that didn't agree with their Primarch were mind-wiped and reassigned.

>>98261784
Emps had a melty with their Primarchs, hence why the Space Wolves went after them.
The legions themselves didn't get anything bad happening to them.
Instead they got absorbed by the Ultramarines Legion which would be pretty damn correct since despite having identical recruitment rates, the sons of Guilliman got a triple increase in size all of a sudden.

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>>98261784
XI = Eleven
II = 1 1 = Eleven
Eleven is considered an inauspicious number.
It sits between the perfect numbers ten and twelve and represents sin, disorder, dissolution, and death.
The Emperor would of course be aware of this.

>>98263319
>despite having identical recruitment rates
What?
The Ultramarines have superior recruitment rates because logistics is their thing.

>>98261784
There are sections of Sanguinius working to cover up the red thirst/black rage of his own legion out of the worry that it would lead to a purge if the Emperor found out. So odds are that at least one of the traitor legions was simply full of extreme and obvious geneseed defects.
It's possible that Sanguinius was worried about nothing, but the way it's framed makes it seem like he couldn't just as Big E for help in curing that.

>>98262043
It clearly wasn't as bad since we know that
a) the Legions themselves were not purged, but mind-wiped and absorbed by Ultramarines / Imperial Fists
b) every time any other Primarch reminisces about their lost brothers, it's with sadness, not disgust like when they talk about the traitors
So the Xenos theory seems the most plausible. My personal theory is that one of them was raised on a Craft World and later found out about the Webway project.

>>98263910
>a) the Legions themselves were not purged, but mind-wiped and absorbed by Ultramarines / Imperial Fists
That's an in-universe conspiracy theory that even most Word Bearers look down on. The Ultramarines are a big legion due to their gene-seed being highly replicable, their reluctance to engage in high attrition strategies, and Guilliman's logistical expertise. The Imperial Fists weren't even a notably large Legion.
>b) every time any other Primarch reminisces about their lost brothers, it's with sadness, not disgust like when they talk about the traitors. So the Xenos theory seems the most plausible.
Betraying humanity for aliens wouldn't make them any less traitors.
The II and XI were either killed or lost to some genetic abnormality beyond their control.

>>98264183
>in-universe conspiracy theory
Plot moved on anon, Malcador drops Dorn's memory blocks about it late in the Heresy and about a decade and a half in real world time, and yes Guilliman and Dorn were the ones who saved the legions from their Primarch's errors.

>>98268779
nta, but 50+ posts and you seen to be the only anon that knows what he's talking about.

For the rest of you: We know little about the II and XI legions but we know a few things, mostly because the 30k timeline forces them to fit within know events.
>II
Got their primarch very early during the Great Crusade. He (because he was a man) was said to be cold and of few words in the Fulgrim novel.
They fought for over a century until something happened around the time of the Ragdan wars, and then they dissapear from the record.
>XI
Zero info, except that their primarch wasn't found until the time of the Ragdan wars, and then they dissapear from the record.

The above suggest that something happened to both of them at the same time when they met, but there's no details beyond that, and that the SW were know to have been part of a purge of another legion, and be called the "Emperor's executioners".

We also know that whatever happened wasn't the fault of their legionaries, who got inducted into the UM and the IF.
And that also means they had to be able to pass as UM/IF, so they had no weird geneseed, powers, or appearance. They just looked like regular astartes. Nothing like the Salamanders, Ravenguard, or the Thousand Sons.

And that's it.

>>98269619
>because he was a man
Rest In Peace every “the lost primarchs were women” headcanons.
Can you provide books and page numbers so an image compilation is made to put those baiters to rest?

>>98261949
>I don’t think I can reach the conclusion the Imperium always sucked shit, nothing was ever good, 40k isn’t a fallen setting at all, the Emperor was retarded, the Emperor was simultaneously a Reddit atheist but hated heresy, the worst crime, except for mega-double-xenos heresy which was even worse without your gay little book series actually faggot. Look this shit:
But you absolutely can. The HH novels didn't really rewrite anything that was already present in the lore, they just added more and confirmed some details that were hinted at (like the Machine God/Omnissiah being the Void Dragon, who has been manipulating humanity to advance its technology in hopes that it would eventually be freed from the prison the Emperor trapped it in, which was already so heavily implied everyone knew about it before the book confirmed it for real). Or the Imperium's laws being extremely harsh towards dissent, punishing entire planets for refusing to comply with the Lex. Or the Emperor being a terrible dad, the memes of which existed long before the HH novels were ever written.
Also stuff like Corax's homeworld getting ruined by the Emperor's industry to support the Great Crusade. Pretty much all of this was already written down in codexes and Index Astartes articles. The Imperium was never a nice place to live, it was always a means to an end, and the end the Emperor wanted was absolute control no matter how harsh it is to the common man. Because he needed total control in order to fulfill his dream of safely guiding human evolution. Again, ancient lore.

>>98269619
We also know that II was Malcador's favorite and his name was very similar to Malcador's. Maybe because he was created with Malcy's genes instead of the Emperor's?

>>98269619
I bet XI was actually commanding the Rangdan all along. That would explain his crime being so severe he got struck from the records forever. And why his legion did nothing wrong - they were fighting the Rangdan like everyone else, clueless the guy commanding the xenos was their own gene-sire.

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>>98270109
>Rest In Peace every “the lost primarchs were women” headcanons.
Hey they didn't gender the Eleventh!

>>98270167
Well looks like the joke is on me then.
But gw would retcon anything at any time so who knows what could happen.

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>>98270109
Sorry, I don't have my books right know, but I gathered this after an online search:
>FW Black Books
Several quotes about the lost Legions primarchs among references to the Ragdan Xenocides at the end of the Great Crusade
>Fulgrim: The Palatine Phoenix
Quote about the II primarch being quiet, arrogant, and a man
Link: https ://i<dot> 4pcdn<dot> org/tg/1697624987445380<dot>pdf
>The First Heretic
Butthurt WB discuss the fate of the Lost Legions, and the rumours about what happened to them
> The Chamber at the End of Memory (Short Story)
Confirms that the Lost Legions marines became part of the IF and UM
Link: https ://i<dot> 4pcdn<dot> org/tg/1550111812756<dot>pdf

>>98270233
Also:
>The Last Council (Short Story)
Horus confronts Malcador about the prohibition on talking about the Lost primarchs

>>98270233
>Butthurt WB discuss the fate of the Lost Legions, and the rumours about what happened to them
Just after Monarchia, which happened like 40 years before the HH. So that means the Lost Legions were gone by then, around 150+ years after the start of the GC

>>98261949
>I don’t think I can reach the conclusion the Imperium always sucked shit,

You think the empire that devolved due to a civil war was all great and had no issues prior to that civil war? Are you retarded?

>emperor is an atheist

What made you think the emperor believed in / worshipped a god before?

>>98270233
>Confirms that the Lost Legions marines became part of the IF and UM
Where?

>>98269619
all that means is they cleared their geneseed and probably purged any corrupted geneseed

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>>98261784
They tried to recruit chicks into their legion

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utilizing the information provided in this thread, I come to the conclusion that #2 either discovered the secret of the C'tan's creation of the necron bodies, or was possessed/influenced by the c'tan directly, or both to some extent, and wished to do/did in some capacity the same to his own legion to make an army of unkillable astartes robots. He likely resorted to it to win the Ragdan war which was pushing humanity to the brink, and possibly did succeed in turning the tide of the war with his methods, but was stopped before things could go too far by the 11th, which ultimately ended in the death of both. The record of both was expunged to hide the existance of these star gods from humanity just as the emperor wished to do with chaos.

>>98273329
its this; they started making fem marines.

>>98270109
>Rest In Peace every “the lost primarchs were women” headcanons.
You do realize men can become women, yes?

what if the 2nd was actually the Deceiver, thats why it was covered up.
Because the Emperor was embarrassed a xenos tricked him

>>98270126
>Emperor being a terrible dad
He wasn't a father to any of them, a father implies that he raised them in some way, when he met them they were adults, warlords, and had all risen to conquer their worlds.

Except Angron and Horus. And possibly Alpharius, depending on whether you believe his Primarch novel.

>>98274366
the primarchs were his daemon princes project, every one of them was doomed to be a daemon prince eventually that was the pact with the gods he made.
Konrad saw this in a vision and went mad.
And once he was done with the astartes he'd put them all down, considering to what he did with the Thunder warriors and how astartes were never intended to reproduce

>>98261806
>the other one started its own empire
And was completely unpersoned for it? Horus did that and far worse besides and we still know his name to spit on it.

>>98262051
Why not just use the Votan for this? They're an independent civilisation descended from Humans at the centre of the Galaxy, yet have wildly different outlooks as to what is permitted and forbidden. Making one of the lost Primarchs 'Daucus Carota' raised in the Leagues would give them some damn historical relevance to the Imperium's story and perhaps provide an actual reason that they weren't reintegrated like the Orgyns, Ratlings or so very many more.

>>98274748
>provide an actual reason that they weren't reintegrated like the Orgyns, Ratlings or so very many more.
It's because they were already a powerful and independent civillisation.

In my headcanon one of them or both is due to them falling to Malal/Malice (his number is 11, which can be interpreted literally as 11 or as I I). His whole shtick is nonexistence and oblivion so it makes sense that the legion(s) that fell to him were retroactively erased to outside observers.

II got shunted into another reality and became Sigmar Heldenhammer, XI got warp-fucked and became a squat

>>98275063
>gee malal how come you get two legions

While we are on the subject of the invented lore of iimaginary characters designed to boost the sales of products, how many stripees do you all think Ronald MacDonald has on his trousers? I say 28, but my mate jim insists it's 31. What do you think?

>>98262043
>the erasure of the records related to whatever they did would imply that knowing the nature of their deeds would effectively constitute an infohazard that threatened the continued existence of the Imperium.
I think it more speaks how the Imperium has degraded. While the Emperor was in charge and things were looking up they were able to mind wipe entire legions, primarchs and the entire civilian population with 100% effectiveness. If they had that capability after the HH they would've done the same thing for the traitor legions and primarchs, but obviously they weren't able to anymore.

>>98269619
>the SW were know to have been part of a purge of another legion, and be called the "Emperor's executioners".
The SW invented that title for themselves and considering how absolutely unthinkable the idea of space marines fighting space marines is at the start of the HH they likely never actually purged anyone. The Wolves are there to send a message, if anyone went and purged a legion/primarch and the Emperor didn't want anyone to know about it they would've sent the Custodes or Dark Angels.

>>98263770
Actually it's because Leman was ordered to destroy the II Legion but because he doesn't know what Roman numerals area he went and killed the 11th instead

>>98275250
>how absolutely unthinkable the idea of space marines fighting space marines is at the start of the HH
that was the UM, other legions had no problems with the idea
> they likely never actually purged anyone
Nobody mentions the details, but everybody seem conviced that they did it.

In reality, probably nobody is even able to remember it, because Malcador or the Emperor mindwiped more than one time several primarchs and legions (like it happened at Molech)

>>98261949
They hated him because he told the truth. People who love HH series have no imagination of their own and need someone else to substitute one for them

>>98261949
>>98275832
Samefag less.
>>98270126 is right. You are whining about something that never was true. You're the one with bad imagination and you lack understanding of the themes and points made in the HH series.

>>98275846
Look how the samefag cry's out while samefagging at you

>>98274366
wooosh: the post

>>98262081
>but ALSO that emps did not bother to rectify the situation in any way whatsoever?
On brand for him

>>98262577
>Not really; the vast number of undocumented chapters already gave us that
The missing legions were invented for Space Marine/Epic, where everything was set in the Horus Heresy, but they'd already come up with all the First Founding schemes.

>>98274382
There is 0 proof of this any more. Get with the times, unless you only learn by listening to your headcanon.