Have you ever stopped to think about why bother making dragons vastly intelligent in most fantasy roleplaying games. Since it doesn't matter how smart they are. They are still stuck in the body of a giant reptile. They can't exactly flip through the pages of a book. Get out a pen and write down notes. Or do anything that humanoid creatures can naturally do with their hands, that is better for handling delicate items for magical use. How does a dragon with its claws brew up a magic potion. It wouldn't be able to grip the tiny flask. You could just say "it knows magic so it does everything with its mind", which defeats the point of it being a dragon. Since that becomes something anyone can do. Do you see where I'm going with this.And also, whenever a dragon knows magic what does it do. It transforms into anything else than being a dragon.
>>98302295Traditional games?
>>98302295>A dragon is a primordial force with conscience, thematically a minor god or a titan.>A dragon can transform into a mortal form to interact with mortals, mostly for breeding purposes like the mythological gods of old.>When a dragon is displeased he can take it's true form and became the equivalent of an unstoppable natural disaster. Something that titans and gods were seen as the causes of.Seems pretty good to me anon. I don't see your problem.
>>98302295>You could just say "it knows magic so it does everything with its mind", which defeats the point of it being a dragon. Since that becomes something anyone can doExcellent point. This is why any time I have an NPC that can use magic I make them a nondescript gray cube.
>>98302351>Excellent point. This is why any time I have an NPC that can use magic I make them a nondescript gray cube.Of course, warlocks are selling off every identifiable bodily characteristic to spirits; both for magic powers and to make them completely indistinguishable from every other warlock out there.
>>98302335No. Dragons are just big fishes in a small pond. Everyone jerks them off for being cool, but they are nowhere near being godlike since they regularly get hunted for their hides to use for armour. Dragon mail is EVERYWHERE. You can get dragon scale dinner cutlery if you go to most big cities in a fantasy setting.
>Dragon vastly intelligent>Can't do shit with its intelligence unless it becomes not a dragon anymoreCheckmate
>>98302360Sure, if your fantasy setting is boring.
>>98302380>D&D>Magic the Gathering>Pathfinder>Planescape>DragonlanceOk, maybe in the setting of Spelljammer.
>>98302398>3 games>Two setting for one of the 3 gamesWhat did he mean by this?
>>98302295>They are still stuck in the body of a giant reptile.Source?
>>98302295sounds like a perfect reason for a dragon to keep goons around to do menial work like turning the pages of the book its reading. Also being legendary evil monsters dragons do venture out and about and have done for hundreds of years so they've probably experienced or heard of much of what's written down anyway
>>98302466A better question. Why is nothing ever upscaled for dragon sizes. Why must they settle on everything being human sized, and not make giant books of their own with big wine glasses to drink out of. Why are they the ones who always have to shrink down, and become human.
>>98302295In what game?
>>98302295>Have you ever stopped to thinkNo.
>>98302295Mage hand is a cantrip
>>98302295Use question marks when appropriate, anon.
>>98302295That's what servants are for.
>>98302295The idea of a dragon reading books is so fundamentally retarded i am glad you can't even imagine it play outDo you think Smaug read books in his spare time or something?
>>98302633It can rip things just fine as long as it's paper or cloth, what are you talking about, can't rip?
>>98302479because dragons aren't tool-using monkeys
https://archive.org/details/gervase-of-tilbury-otia-imperialia-2002-clarendon-press/page/n407
>>98302398boy he's dumb
>>98302742Smaug hoards gold like a retard.In a setting where arcane power comes from reading books 100% they would.Smaug doesn't do it because in the middle earth setting magic comes from being a demi god or being an ayylmao elf.
>>98302295I think the way to go is to make them smarter but physically less imposing, more like a crocodile or dinosaur than a movie monster. They have to use humans to do certain things, but also have to hide from humans to avoid being ganked by overwhelming numbers. That film 'Dragonslayer' is closest to what I'm talking about, but it doesn't have humans serving the dragon, it just has the dragon being smart.
>>98302295>Since it doesn't matter how smart they areIt does.>They can't exactly flip through the pages of a book. Get out a pen and write down notes. Or do anything that humanoid creatures can naturally do with their hands, that is better for handling delicate items for magical useOf course they can. And even if they couldn't, that's what minions and slaves are for.And yes, some of those would know magic or have psychic powers or the like.
>>98302295dragons have servants that read to them and artists that will preform plays, obviously
>>98302295This seems more a problem with trying to have them using tech indented to match human(oid) size and anatomy instead of coming up with the dragon friendly tech they would develop for their use
>>98302295Easy, because if it's just a dumb animal it is automatically trivialized by being susceptible to every single tactic, trap, or other underwhelming kill method that works on dumb animals, and that hardly makes for an impressive foe or beast if you can just poison its food and call it a day.
>>98302380Most fantasy settings are that way. Dragons are big jobbers made to look someone else look stronger. They can be big and impressive, but rarely the actual draw or main villain, that role is reserved for humans/humanoids.
https://archive.org/details/walter-map-de-nugis-curialium-or-courtiers-trifles-revised-by-brooke-and-mynors-/page/n204
>>98302295Mage Hands
>>98306478Which is nothing special, since anyone can learn that spell. It just makes dragons come off as invalids. Can't physically do anything on their own, unless having help on hand. Their bodies are useless outside survival combat.
>>98306912You dun betta apologize NOW for saying mean things about my scaliesona!
>>98302295Why would I need to write anything? I never forget. Why would I need to read the writings of lesser beings? Making potions? Mortals dream of having a drop of my blood to use in a potion. The fact that I surpass you in intelligence does not mean that I need the same pathetic tools you do. You make ships and wagons, ride even lower beasts than you, and try all kinds of lowly magic tricks, and you will still fail to catch up to the thunder of my wings as i pierce the sky.You try to discover the secrets of alchemy to live longer and combat your inevitable rot. Yet I am immortal.My scales are the greatest armour, my claws better than any sword.What arrogance it is to think my intelligence depends upon my knowledge of your lesser arts. Watch as cities made through centuries of your works, turn to ruin, once I decide.
>>98302295>They are still stuck in the body of a giant reptileEastern dragons taking human form is a several thousand year old mythological tradition and Western dragons being able to polymorph as well (and thus the entire existence of draconic sorcerers and virtually every monster under the sun being viable for the Half-Dragon template) is also firmly established in modern fantasy. If you want a big dumb monster that's just an extremely dangerous wild animal, there's better archetypal creatures to use than dragons
>>98302295>defeats the point of it being a dragonYou have legs. How come you get into a car and drive places? Do you understand how fucking dumb you sound?
>>98302295Being able to understand and respond in human tongues already places dragons above the curve for intelligence. And that ship sailed long ago. Which means if given the right tools they could do anything humans could do mentally, which of course extends to magic. So if a setting has the ability for magically inclined humans to learn magic it actually needs more reasons to not allow dragons to also learn magic. This of course can range from "they're actually just lizards and aren't much smarter than a non-avian dinosaur might be" to "the gods themselves said dragons cannot learn magic".But in a setting where the logical conclusion is dragons are about as smart as humans and magic is something you can learn, of course they're going to just use magic to solve the mundane issues of a world not made for them.
>>98302295What are the pros and cons of making dragons basically animals, if crafty and probably magical ones, versus fully sapient and intelligent beings? Or even both types of dragons in the same setting?
>>98302295
>>98308467>Or even both types of dragons in the same setting?That sounds like the infinitely more interesting option.I can imagine different groups of dragons thinking of their lesser brothers in wildly different ways.
https://wheeljournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Wheel-37-38-01-damascus.pdf
>>98302295A species that was highly intelligent would figure out different ways of doing things like recording knowledge, toolmaking, and so on that better suit their physiologies than the way humans do things.>They can't exactly flip through the pages of a book. Get out a pen and write down notes.They can, however, speak with each other to record knowledge orally and use their claws to carve into sturdier materials than paper to record knowledge. Some of the earliest writing that we have from human cultures were on clay or wax tablets: it would not be absurd to suggest that dragons would have some equivalent.>How does a dragon with its claws brew up a magic potion.They would use much larger alchemical equipment and/or parts of their body better suited to the task, such as their tongues.>You could just say "it knows magic so it does everything with its mind", which defeats the point of it being a dragon. Since that becomes something anyone can do.Counterpoint: it being a dragon is what lets it do everything with its mind, so it's still not something "anyone" can just do, it's still an inherent part of being a dragon. Anyone else would have to study magic to learn what dragons just do.Also, like, see above? Dragons probably wouldn't even be using human scale stuff in the first place, they'd be using their own things scaled to them.>And also, whenever a dragon knows magic what does it do. It transforms into anything else than being a dragon.To be fair on that one, dragons are typically just disguising themselves on lesser beings while actively working to become greater beings when they do use magic to transform themselves. A dragon looking like a human is ultimately temporary, a dracolich is forever (or until they get bumped off by the players).
>>98302301Suck dick nigger
>>98302295You are consuming media for humans, by humans. Of course it has things humans find familiar and practical in the focus. It is much easier to explain how a tool makes things better because it's what humans do.Now compare that to drawing and manipulating your element or tapping into worldbone to draw knowledge from. Humans, and therefore the reader, have no concept of those so it's just magic anyone can use for them. Sure, you could try to elaborate but it'd come off as infodumping a relatively unnecessary detail that only throws off the flow of the story written for humans.
>>98302748This spell, obviously.
>>98311483>Humans, and therefore the reader, have no concept of thoseand yet you just conceptualized themcheckmate, primate
>>98302295>They can't exactly flip through the pages of a book. Get out a pen and write down notes. Or do anything that humanoid creatures can naturally do with their hands, that is better for handling delicate items for magical use. How does a dragon with its claws brew up a magic potion. It wouldn't be able to grip the tiny flask.Mine do. Their front claws are a dexterous as any hand. Perhaps moreso. And to use them they can just stand on their wings.
>>98302295Don't most dragons turn into humanoids in most settings?
>>98311800How? Even regular ass fingernails can grow to the point of being disruptive.
>>98302295>How does a dragon with its claws brew up a magic potion. It wouldn't be able to grip the tiny flask.The fuck kind of retarded question is this? The dragon would use tools and vessels appropriate to its size.
>>98313612They're very dextrous like I said. Like any hand. Perhaps moreso. Because it's a dragon. And by default it's better than you.
>>98302295>>98302466>You now understand why so many monsters in older D&D monster manuals are slavers
>>98302295It uses its Shapechange ability, or, failing that, magic to manpiulate objects. We're already at a six-limbed creature the size of a house that can breathe fire and fly, we're already past the point of realism.>WAHH IT DEFEATS THE POINTNo it doesn't you mongoloid, it's an intelligent creature using the tools at its disposal to overcome its normal physical limitations. >WAHH IT STOPS BEING A DRAGONNo it doesn't, Shapechange explicitly states it retains all of its game statistics. It is still mechanically a dragon. Furthermore, as you said, to an intelligent creature being of that size all the time is impractical. Think about it you manlet, if (you) could transmute yourself to actually be tall enough to be considered a person to reach something on a high shelf (I don't have this problem, I'm past the 6'/1.83 meter threshold to qualify as a human being by a few inches) wouldn't you? Same principle you mouth-breather.
>>98302295Where did the idea of genius dragons even come from to begin with?
>>98323853Probably a melding of Fafnir, Tolkien dragons who take from Norse dragons, and Eastern/Asian dragons who probably are sourced for being inherently more magical and shapeshifting.
>>98302295Yeah, I have a hard time with dragons as more than semi-sapient beasts
>>98302398>Magic the GatheringThis is just not true. There's not even like dragonhide equipments in any cards period.
>>98323888Yeah, this is a classic "Tolkien did it" case. Not really much to elaborate on.
>>98323853Um, hello? Ever heard of Satan? Who is depicted as a dragon in the Bible? The most infamous mastermind and shapeshifter ever?Or you could look at Tiamat from Mesopotamian myth, who was very intelligent but also a whore who refused to stop birthing new life forms so she had to go.
