>>98319131
Not in the scope of shit people can make rules one can play actual games with.

>>98319141
>he can’t insert mystery into his mechanics
>he assumes his players’ characters view the world the same way their players do
Sounds like a skill issue

>>98319144
Until such time as you give a citation of a system that does magic "well" by your retarded pileup of prescriptive definitions derived from even-more-retarded conflations of MASSIVELY separated etymological contexts, your bullshit remains the subject of >>>/x/ wonderfag.

>>98319168
O damn, u mad

>>98319144
Yeah, the issue in this case would be giving players magic

>>98319131
>The more alien, the more magical.
Wrong.
Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.
Being a supernatural or unnatural force, power, or source means it's an inherently fantastical concept.
Since fantasy is the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable, a fantasy game can have supernatural and unnatural aspects (both to us and to it) while also having aspects that are natural to it but unnatural to us.

Personal senses of wonder and mystery don't change what the creator of a fantasy game establishes as its magic, or other supernatural and unnatural aspects they establish.

>>98319168
G.U.R.P.S. is always the correct answer.

>>98319476
Naaah, he’s not wrong.

Sufficiently weird phenomena that pushes my shit in = “magic” (“I ain’t gotta explain shit”)

“Magic” has always been more magical than Magic™.

>>98319476
>Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.
>since mathematically speaking
Are you retarded?

Rolled 2, 2, 6, 3, 3, 2, 1, 4 = 23 (8d6)

Ok, anyway I cast Fireball at the pack of goblins.

>>98319594
Supernatural and unnatural things don't exist in our world; everything that exists is natural to it.

>>98319131
Hi Wonderfag
Anyways, what game are you talking about? Cause it’d be easier to determine if mystery is a factor into the effectiveness of magic or not in that particular system if you clarify which game you meant.

>>98319578
We sophisticates call that psychic phenomena, brainlet.

>>98319131
This art is shit.

>>98320184
Nah it’s pretty kewl
Lewd too

>>98320562
>Weird alien statuette jacking off
>Lewd

this thread again, deja vu

>>98320611
Big lady with pointy nipples. Very lewd.

>>98320618
The dress doesnt even have a noticable clevage, women have boobs, it doesnt make it lewd

>>98319131
Make yourself more magical and fuck off.

>>98319131
>Wonder and mystery
Okay, how do you display that using mechanics and rules? Every attempt at spellcasting is a random table?

What if all magic comes from aliens?

>>98320648
Use your fucking imagination you nerd

>>98321861
I can use my imagination to imagine tits at any point of the day, anywhere, it doesnt make anything i look at lewd

>>98319757
You think psionics aren’t magic? Lol, lmao even

>>98319131
Agreed. I would go so far as to argue that as soon as you make magic symmetric and predictable, you ruin it. Magic needs to occupy the unknown, and mages need to be people who knows how to manipulate powers they don't quite understand. Making magic into a symmetric system with predictable scaling is tempting, because the symmetry between spells simplifies its relation to the player group. But by doing so, you are doing the game a disservice.

>>98323288
Oh look it’s the wonderfag again. Responding to himself as usual.

>>98319168
>>98319476
>>98319754
>>98323326
I think your amygdala is freaking out

Who is wonderfag?

>>98326576
What is a wonderfag, you mean?

>>98326628
Don't feed the bumpfag, anon. Look at the timestamps: inane question posted 11 hours later, surely when the thread was about to drop off the board.

>>98326576
Some weirdo who’s been making threads this low-effort with an obsession on a unified theory of magic that has nothing to do with any actual tabletop games. Usually easy to identify by how they say “magic has to be mysterious and wonderful” or some other cliche like that.

Though desu I don’t know or care if it’s actually him or not, people just seem to really get tweaked on this board if you call them “wonderfag”, so I do it anyways for a laugh.

>>98322988
Not in my game they’re not.

>>98326681
Then you’re retarded

>>98326675
>a unified theory of magic
That’s just basic psychology for you. So he’s not really wrong about it being based around wonder and mystery. Not really.

>>98326860
Wrong. I actually play games.

>>98326890
No, because every game presents its idea of what is and isn’t supernatural as different. Sorcery doesn’t exist in Traveller, but psionics do. If you want to commit a logical fallacy and go “but it’s all supernatural therefore it must all br magic” , do that at your own table.

>>98326980
>because every game presents its idea of what is and isn’t supernatural as different
Doesn’t really matter when the supernatural is quite literally a psychological affair. It’s relative. Nature that is weird. I don’t care how “supernatural” your magic system is; a hypothetical higher dimensional alien (God) would look at it like it’s not supernatural at all. Does God view His miracles as miraculous? Probably not. It’s all just reality at the end of the day, and what you call “supernatural” or “magic” is just a relative position.

What you call supernatural won’t be supernatural to another. It might just be “eh”.

>>98326980
>Sorcery doesn’t exist in Traveller, but psionics do.
Are the psionics seen as heretical? Evil? Out of the ordinary? Bizarre? Totally “wtf”?

You don’t know what magic is. It’s not a specific substance or thing beyond the mind’s eye. You don’t even need words like magic for it. It’s a sensation.

>>98327078
Mare, I just prefer to engage each fiction on its own terms. Irl it’s all hokey make believe bullshit, so I don’t personally care if you decide someone claiming they can bend spoons with their mind is really a Druid or whatever, or if you want to declare Bigfoot a wonderful creature like they’re some kind of archangel. That’s your thing, cool. But if the game’s fluff I’m playing says thst spoonmancers and druids are two completely differently related things and enforces it by the rules, then that’s what I’m going with. And I don’t care if you don’t like it. I keep my personal beliefs about fairy tale shit separate from my games so I can have fun instead of getting wrapped up in autistic arguments that I didn’t start.

>>98327082
Maybe read a copy of Traveller.
>You don’t know what magic is
Neither do you, Wonderfag.

>>98327078
This is a pointless distinction designed to cause an argument that has no possible resolution and serves no other purpose. Stories and worlds are not written for the benefit of a fictional in-setting entity, they are written in the language of and understanding of a human reader on this Earth. What is possible or not possible for US is what defines was is magical or supernatural in a given work of fiction, regardless of whether anyone within that world would consider it unusual or not.

Taken to its logical conclusion, your hyper-relativism argument is akin to saying that matters of law and legality cannot be discussed by anyone for any reason, as just because something is the law of the land in one place doesn't mean it is the law everywhere else as well, so we must agree to disagree. Cool argument, still clocking you upside the head and taking you to jail because you broke the law.

>>98327104
If you don’t think magic is psychological, then you don’t know what magic is. You think some glowing blue energy is magic, when it’s actually calling it magic (“magic”) that makes it magic. The perception of it. You are too autistic to grasp that. That glowing blue energy might NOT be magic to the green alien who uses glowing green energy.

>>98319131
It's magic if I say it's magic.

>>98327212
Sorry, but I don’t believe magic exists in real life. Your attempts to belittle and talk down to me for not believing in the exact same flavor as your autistic fairy tale shit mean absolutely nothing to me. Feel free to reflect on that.

>>98319144
Sounds like your bait is weak, old man, and all you can do is posturing abstract concepts

>>98319131
Nope.

>>98319275
Wrong.

>>98319578
Wrong.

>>98323288
Wrong.

>>98324954
Ironic, lol.

>>98327082
Wrong. Magic is a game term referring to a particular subsystem defined by a set of rules.

>>98321318
OP has never played a game and never will.

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>>98319131
Entirely correct, despite the bitching and whining of nogames.

If magic is understood, with clear boundaries, functions, behaviors and the like, it's just a science.

>>98327280
>Sorry, but I don’t believe magic exists in real life
If you don’t consider nature or science to be magical, then you don’t actually appreciate nature or science, do you? You don’t see the value in wonder and mystery. Sad! Many such cases. Zoomers don’t even know how their tabloids work. Only how to work them. Occult infrastructure is everywhere. Gravity is still a mystery to scientists.

>>98328747
Wonderfag, I’m only on this board to discuss tabletop games. If you are not interested in doing so, which you are clearly not, then we have nothing further to discuss. Go jerk off about your mystery and wonder on your blog or whatever.

>>98328692
The only whining nogame is OP forever assblasted that magic systems used in games don't meet his retarded criteria.

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Hocus pocus has its origins in people filling in the overwhelming gaps of natural understanding and interpreting the mysteries of the world, which extended to esoteric assumptions and arcane paraphernalia even among the learned. This is why the stereotypical wizard looks rather indistinguishable from the natural philosophers like Isaac Newton, or Galileo, Paracelsus, Roger Bacon, Albertus Magnus, etc.

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>>98328823
This desu

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Back when machines were seen as feats of wizardry. Before the Renaissance, such intricate mechanisms were so far ahead of their time that they were routinely attributed to ancient myth, the gods, or magical architects.

>>98328846
A fucking rectangle

>>98328692
Incorrect, rather.

>>98328747
valuable doesn't equal magical.

>>98328846
Science was literally called “natural magic.” Anything and everything was magic, it was commodified like anything else.

This "wonder and mysterious" shit always comes off as pseud nonsense that has no place in an actual GAME you are meant to be playing. It's exactly the same as the guys who say the only good way to have non-human races is by making them non-playable and with near zero presence and depth, because a lack of information makes it more "interesting."

Trv

>>98323326
Who?
>>98328410
>no argument
Discarded opinion.

If magic exists, it will be quantified
>but it's alien and unknowable
So are many things, and yet we have understood them, studied them and quantified them.

There is nothing that the human mind is incapable of understanding. No. I see it in your eyes. I can hear the gears of your mind turning. You are trying to pull something to mind that the human mind cannot understand. I am telling you now - that thing you are trying to pull to mind not only can be understood, we likely already understand it.

Nothing is beyond our comprehension.

>>98319141
i just tell the gm what my magic does

>>98335998
Anon… if you think mysteries don’t still abound, even today, you’re a fool. We still scratch our heads at gravity. Kids don’t know how their tabloids work, only how to work them. Occult infrastructure is everywhere. You don’t need words like “magic” to evoke the sensation of magic.

What is magic/mysterious is relative.

Eventually you have to find the wonder in what is already known.

>Nothing is beyond our comprehension
Eventually you’ll have to come to terms with the fact that humans won’t know everything, ever.

>>98335998
>There is nothing that the human mind is incapable of understanding. No. I see it in your eyes. I can hear the gears of your mind turning. You are trying to pull something to mind that the human mind cannot understand. I am telling you now - that thing you are trying to pull to mind not only can be understood, we likely already understand it.
spoken like a true humantard…confident he’ll be able to step into the eight dimensional manifold without collapse, imagining himself capable of co-existing everywhere every when as a gestalt ego, without losing himself, bahahaha

>>98336081
>>98336094
And I’m sure this gibberish was at all relevant to the last game you played. Oh, that’s right, you never did in the first place, lol.

>>98336081
>We still scratch our heads at gravity
Depends on what you mean but either way no.
We know how gravity works. There are some tings that are true about gravity, and we know how to deal with those axiomatic things to calculate things. This is pretty well established stuff. What we're working towards now is not the "how" of gravity but the "why" of gravity.

But you're also failing to grasp something. It's not that we know everything now. It's that we are capable of understanding anything. There is no concept that is beyond our comprehension.

>Kids don’t know how their tabloids work, only how to work them.
And yet they are capable of learning these things.

>>98336094
>imagining himself capable of co-existing everywhere every when as a gestalt ego
I have, in fact, taken psilocybin before and came out just fine on the other side. Thanks.

>>98336149
>We know how gravity works
We literally do not.

>>98336149
>What we're working towards now is not the "how" of gravity but the "why" of gravity.
pretentious gobbledygook
string theory hasn’t progressed is seventy years, and gravity in regards to quantum bologna is borderline magic the same way an alien ufo would be borderline magic

>>98336149
>It's not that we know everything now. It's that we are capable of understanding anything. There is no concept that is beyond our comprehension.
That’s a bold fucking claim, buddy.

>>98332721
>pseud
I don’t think you know that this means

>>98328846
>believes the dark ages chart
The actual history of automata is very interesting, if you want to learn instead of sitting around saying "uh I guess they were all fucking dumb and thought it was wizards or something".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton#Medieval

>>98336149
Try fentanyl next, we'll all be better off.

>>98319131
Okay, provide specific examples of this in existing properties then please.

>>98339411
Provide examples of weird fiction? Ask the AI you ask everything else to.

>>98339439
Way to sidestep the question, nogames tard. YOU provide specific examples if it’s so important.

>>98339397
The stereotypical capital-w wizard sitting in their tower orrery and fidgeting with arcane contraptions won’t see themselves as a capital-w wizard you huge nerd. Their bar for magic is higher than the muggles. If your elves see themselves as magical, you’re doing it wrong. If your wizards only see themselves as wizards ironically (like Gandalf), you’re doing it properly.

>>98335978
>still wrong
Discarded opinion.

>>98339532
nope they see themselves as wizards, I asked them

>>98319131
I don't think this really works because the more you're exposed to something the more familiar it rapidly becomes, so unless you somehow come up with a design that's inherently novel every time it's interacted with, this isn't a very helpful way to approach magic.

Say what you will about liking or not liking Brandon Sanderson, I personally think it's interesting how his systems serve to inform settings and explore the implications of essentially having a different field of science for worlds and how those systems can be learned and exploited for surprising effects similar to the real world because it gives nice flavor and crunch at the same time.

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>>98339546
Not necessarily so, is the point.

“No, it’s stupid. It’s not good enough to be magic. God I hate nature. Life is excruciating and nothing matters! Fuck off!”.

>>98339559
My game’s wizards are like that. What are you going to do about it, nogames? That’s right, nothing.

>>98339569
I’m just pointing out that semantic warfare is a huge part of wizard battles. Arguing over what is or isn’t deserving of being called magic will truly wound a wizard.

>>98339574
Funny, semantics over what is and isn’t magic is one of biggest reasons wars were waged between wizards in the past in my game. And they’re all wrong about it too.

>>98339578
It’s a good thing that authors are free to have semantic warfare over what is or isn’t magic as well! Just like humans all over history. Magic to one is not magic to another. Magic in one fiction is mundane in another. Magic is an accusation. Bad or good. Both. Doesn’t matter.

>>98339596
Which is why OP is an idiot for making this thread that’s basically trying to essentially box in people’s imagination to his autistic ideals for so many years, especially since none of his rhetoric applies to actual played traditional games.

>98339532
Bait used to be believable

>>98339876
Thinking something is bait, when it’s not, implies you’re too stupid to detect what’s being said.

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>>98319131
Weak shit. Magic is the unknown, but triggering memory can make a thing appear more unknown. An element to a style that triggers nostalgia for something undefined creates a greater feeling of wonder and mystery.

juxtaposing the familiar and unfamiliar is a more dynamic formula. Which is more magical, something unfamiliar and novel, or something familiar but novel?

>>98340731
What the fuck do you think Deja vu is?

>>98340745
Your brain farting. But manufacturing the feeling can be useful.

>>98339559
Necessarily so, I checked with every wizard who's ever lived and ever will live

Ugh

Yep, I'm right and you lose.

>>98340657
Key example on display, I see

>>98339559
Schizo retards will pick some random group they don't like and just make up shit about what they believe, either based on one guy they argued with years ago or their own strawman in their head
You'll get some people calling atheists earth worshipping pagans, then you'll get this shit.

>>98342612
He’s not even wrong though. Once, I called space magical, and my processor freaked out at me. Not my fault boomers can’t handle a force of beauty, causing their amygdala to freak the fuck out.

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>>98319131

>>98343395
No, he’s pretty damn wrong.

>>98343452
If you don’t consider nature or science to be magical then you don’t exactly love or appreciate nature or science, do you?

>>98342510
Ironic, lol.

>>98343584
Reasoning?

>>98343584
Begging the claim. And irrelevant besides.

>>98343584
Reasoning?

>>98344882
Not being able to have a sensation of wonder of an appreciation for mystery is a sign of a dysfunctional brain. Atheists are soulless grey blobs for the most part. They see a force of beauty and it causes a panic response.

>>98346262
So you’re a fallacy spewing off-topic moron.

>>98346268
Ok

>>98347976
Glad we agree

>>98346262
weird, this has nothing to do with what you said. provide reasoning for your assertion. NOW.

>>98319131
Yeah, if I had five arms, I'd have one of them constantly pinching my own dick at all times too.

>op seething and necrobumping
lol

>>98327082
Magic is real and is not that

.t- schitzo.

What I don't get from OP is that magic clearly is made from this pseudo secular understanding that we have normal things , that sometimes people tapped into , or that sometimes entered your life.

Magic in fantasy setting was made with an understanding, even if a play pretend one, that magic was real and that magical traditions were a thing unto themselevs.

That is what the wizard is ment to be then.

>>98350080
For example , a simple story of a brave warrior that has the magical power of hippos over him.
One could argue that the magic is the wonder of a man destroying men after men in quick succesion , or the ability to carry so much as if it was nothing.

But if magic is just the wonder. Then were did his strengh come from?

>>98350080
>>98350102
You put far more thought into it than OP ever did. The short and long of it is that for all his talk, OP is one of those types that can’t envision the apple in his head. It doesn’t matter if someone can posit a reality where someone can manipulate matter with special words and rituals, he can’t envision it so everyone must not be able to and this are liars. The idea that fiction and reality aren’t one-to-one just shortcircuts his brain cells, and he’s spent his time trying to justify it by claiming only he understands what is natural and unnatural, hence his obsession with mystery and wonder and obsession with calling everyone who disagrees an incel-atheist type. Fiction imo exists for humans to believe in things that aren’t true. How else will we prepare ourselves to try and make them real?

>>98340731
>Magic is the unknown
No it’s not. The word mage and wizard both literally just mean “wise man” as in “guy that knows a lot.” Magic is esoteric, but not always unknown. It’s like none of you people know what historical magicians actually were or did. Magic is based on wisdom/knowledge acquired from known truths about the nature of things that can be applied via ritual to create actual effects. It IS highly spiritual though, and trying to make it purely “scientific” or points-based is gay.

>>98351545
They don’t play games at all to know the difference. The main reason that ttrpgs even make magic in any way points based is to keep the mechanical aspect of it from getting over-complicated. Flavor’s fine and all, but you need more than just vibes for a game.

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Hmm...

>>98351839
Oh yeah I don’t disagree, because I actually play TTRPGs, of course there’s a need for balance and ease of use. Trying to talk my group into letting me run Ars Magica at the moment though. I’m just saying peoples’ analysis is usually flawed because of a limited grasp on what makes magic magic in a sense that imbues a setting with verisimilitude.

>>98352299
I’ve only ever found that kind of thing fun as purely role playing, in a nerd debate sort of way. One of my player characters is a sentient magic staff, and a fair chunk of her time that’s not spent sharing her mafia knowledge with other player character is trying to understand all this modern shit that’s popped up since she was left to sit in a dank dark wizard tower for a thousand years or so. She can grasp the concept of computers and stuff fine, for example, but she can’t watch a Harry Potter without lecturing to anyone within ear shot how magic isn’t just “waving a magic stick and saying some funny words, there’s a process and art to it”.

>>98352457
Well yeah, it’s fluff. It’s a role playing game.

>>98319131
I'm playing a game, so what should I do, make random tables for everything because oh so magical?

>>98351845
It’s worse on other boards.

>>98351545
Damn man who knew that words never evolve and change meaning. I bet when someone says "Janitor" you correct that that it's a latin word for gatekeeper and not the guy pushing a mop bucket around.

>>98351839
Was literally responding to the OP, who wasn't talking about real games.

You retards must be new here.

>>98361065
>Was literally responding to the OP, who wasn't talking about real games
So you were knowingly off-topic and thus contributing to board spam
I think you’re the retard here.

>>98351545
>Magic is esoteric, but not always unknown.
Are you too stupid to see the overlap between the two? Esoteric means out of view. Fucking idiot.

This board keeps hair splitting and I’m getting fucking tired of it. Stop it.

>>98351545
All of that is based around mystery and the ineffable. AKA the unknown. AKA the esoteric. AKA the occult. AKA the arcane.

A wise man is magical because he knows things you don’t. Can do things you can’t. Magic at its core is about mystery.

>>98351545
>The word mage and wizard both literally just mean “wise man” as in “guy that knows a lot.”
>Magic is based on wisdom/knowledge acquired from known truths about the nature of things that can be applied via ritual to create actual effects.
Sounds nebulous anon. Maybe you should consider how people perceive the wizard. Mystery is one sided. What is mysterious to the wizard is likely a whole other tier of mystery. Magic and mysticism go hand in hand. Even the capital-w wizards (who won’t necessarily consider themselves as such) will be confronting their own mysteries. Their own edges and limits.

>>98361906
The fucks don’t even realize that rigid scientific ritual/ceremonial magic like Hermetic magic WAS a form of mysticism. Mystery is in the NAME. Fuck.

People like >>98351545 are honestly some of the most infuriatingly dense and obtuse posters around. This level of pedantry and hairsplitting is vomit inducing. Humans love to box things redundantly and I want to gouge their eyes out with my thumbs.

>>98361908
It’s not entirely their fault, since they were weaned on low effort garbage like Dee en Dee that only serve to mis-educate. Your insults will only make them argue harder, since they don’t want to accept being led astray.

>>98361908
A lot of people today are in denial about the occult infrastructure all around them.

>>98361895
>>98361906
>>98361908
>>98361917
>>98361921
Why are you talking to yourself?

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>>98319131
Ok then, so go play Nobilis and fuck off.

>>98361944
Why are you so bad at semantics?

>>98362009
I’m not the one talking to himself to bump his own stupid thread

>>98362556
You and everyone else on this website are always accusing each other of being the same person. I don’t know why you think you’re unique or special.

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>>98328692
All things which interact with the physical world can be measured, and therefore, the scientific method can be applied, but that does not mean it conforms with our ideas of how things ought to work. Not to mention that supernatural phenomena may gain scientific pretensions - see ghost hunting equipment - yet they remain fantastical. Besides, what is science in another world can still be magic to us.

Forget about being nogames, you are a nothink.

>>98362875
Its called solipsism

>>98362875
I’m definitely not you nor OP, and I’m glad for that.

Bump.

Bump

>>98319131
You’re not wrong but you’ll trigger the mega autistic regardless

this board sucks big balls

>>98373504
God I wish that were me.

>>98375535
Why did you bump this from page 10

>>98319131
>Remember, folks. The more useless, the more magical. Magic is that vital lack of utility. Impractical and pointless.
Fuck off, tools have to be at least somewhat understandable or they're bad tools, and if magic can't be used as a tool then it's not going to get used at all.

>>98319131
You would probably like this
>https://imgchest.com/p/dl7pzjzjyox

>>98319131
Remember that OP is a faggot.

>>98319131
Correct.

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>>98375922
Perhaps twice. A double-faggot.

Remember folks
This thread was made by a faggot

>>98386136
Says you, a ginormous faggot

>>98386136
>>98389804
As chief faggot inspector, I declare that these are two plump healthy young faggots.

>>98393934
And you’re the faggot who touches himself as he watches them do it

>>98386136
Bumpfaggot...

It is!

.

>>98319476
>Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.
Reminder that this idea is younger than our current president

>>98322988
>You think psionics aren’t magic?
Psionics =/= magic =/= reality bending, unless your setting is shit

>>98336094
>confident he’ll be able to step into the eight dimensional manifold without collapse, imagining himself capable of co-existing everywhere every when as a gestalt ego
Yeah I sleep every night. Lmao @ non-physicoids who have to "try" to dream.

nononoNoNoNONONO dont bring up gravity and quantum physics in the magic thread DONT BRING UP QUANTUM PHYSICS IN THE MAGIC THREAD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(quantum_information)
>In 2024–2025, quantum magic was detected in top quark pairs produced at the Large Hadron Collider; it is the first observation of this property in fundamental particle collisions
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>98403631
This is about as stupid as calling a particle the “god particle”. Why are scientists so fucking retarded with their labels?

>this thread again
Ugh.

>>98403603
This is like saying red isn’t a colour because red isn’t blue.

>>98403603
Magic in typical fantasy fiction is typically seen as reality bending

>>98405247
>red is blue because blue is a colour
Do you hear yourself?
>>98414644
>Magic in DnDogshit is typically seen as reality bending
Thanks for proving my point anon!

God this thread is awful

>>98416183
Remember that there are retards in this world that want your table top games to be just like this thread, too, aka just evenings of fart sniffing smug retards arguing over how telekinesis works for the fiftieth time in a row because they think that a game shouldn’t have consistent rules regarding magic. And they’re the ones making threads like this.

>>98319141
wrong

see: wish

>>98416470
>i personally somehow mysteriously always end up in arguments with those people therefore all they ever want to do is argue
maybe you failed to notice some other pattern...

>>98417033
That /tg/ is full of retards, since I’ve never seen anyone else make that kind of retarded argument anywhere but here?

Idiots.