Remember, folks. The more alien, the more magical. Magic is that vital lack of familiarity. Wonder and mystery.
>>98319131Not in the scope of shit people can make rules one can play actual games with.
>>98319141>he can’t insert mystery into his mechanics>he assumes his players’ characters view the world the same way their players do Sounds like a skill issue
>>98319144Until such time as you give a citation of a system that does magic "well" by your retarded pileup of prescriptive definitions derived from even-more-retarded conflations of MASSIVELY separated etymological contexts, your bullshit remains the subject of >>>/x/ wonderfag.
>>98319168O damn, u mad
>>98319144Yeah, the issue in this case would be giving players magic
>>98319131>The more alien, the more magical.Wrong.Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.Being a supernatural or unnatural force, power, or source means it's an inherently fantastical concept.Since fantasy is the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable, a fantasy game can have supernatural and unnatural aspects (both to us and to it) while also having aspects that are natural to it but unnatural to us.Personal senses of wonder and mystery don't change what the creator of a fantasy game establishes as its magic, or other supernatural and unnatural aspects they establish.
>>98319168G.U.R.P.S. is always the correct answer.
>>98319476Naaah, he’s not wrong.Sufficiently weird phenomena that pushes my shit in = “magic” (“I ain’t gotta explain shit”)“Magic” has always been more magical than Magic™.
>>98319476>Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.>since mathematically speaking Are you retarded?
Rolled 2, 2, 6, 3, 3, 2, 1, 4 = 23 (8d6)Ok, anyway I cast Fireball at the pack of goblins.
>>98319594Supernatural and unnatural things don't exist in our world; everything that exists is natural to it.
>>98319131Hi WonderfagAnyways, what game are you talking about? Cause it’d be easier to determine if mystery is a factor into the effectiveness of magic or not in that particular system if you clarify which game you meant.
>>98319578We sophisticates call that psychic phenomena, brainlet.
>>98319131This art is shit.
>>98320184Nah it’s pretty kewlLewd too
>>98320562>Weird alien statuette jacking off>Lewd
this thread again, deja vu
>>98320611Big lady with pointy nipples. Very lewd.
>>98320618The dress doesnt even have a noticable clevage, women have boobs, it doesnt make it lewd
>>98319131Make yourself more magical and fuck off.
>>98319131>Wonder and mysteryOkay, how do you display that using mechanics and rules? Every attempt at spellcasting is a random table?
What if all magic comes from aliens?
>>98320648Use your fucking imagination you nerd
>>98321861I can use my imagination to imagine tits at any point of the day, anywhere, it doesnt make anything i look at lewd
>>98319757You think psionics aren’t magic? Lol, lmao even
>>98319131Agreed. I would go so far as to argue that as soon as you make magic symmetric and predictable, you ruin it. Magic needs to occupy the unknown, and mages need to be people who knows how to manipulate powers they don't quite understand. Making magic into a symmetric system with predictable scaling is tempting, because the symmetry between spells simplifies its relation to the player group. But by doing so, you are doing the game a disservice.
>>98323288Oh look it’s the wonderfag again. Responding to himself as usual.
>>98319168>>98319476>>98319754>>98323326I think your amygdala is freaking out
Who is wonderfag?
>>98326576What is a wonderfag, you mean?
>>98326628Don't feed the bumpfag, anon. Look at the timestamps: inane question posted 11 hours later, surely when the thread was about to drop off the board.
>>98326576Some weirdo who’s been making threads this low-effort with an obsession on a unified theory of magic that has nothing to do with any actual tabletop games. Usually easy to identify by how they say “magic has to be mysterious and wonderful” or some other cliche like that.Though desu I don’t know or care if it’s actually him or not, people just seem to really get tweaked on this board if you call them “wonderfag”, so I do it anyways for a laugh.
>>98322988Not in my game they’re not.
>>98326681Then you’re retarded
>>98326675>a unified theory of magicThat’s just basic psychology for you. So he’s not really wrong about it being based around wonder and mystery. Not really.
>>98326860Wrong. I actually play games.>>98326890No, because every game presents its idea of what is and isn’t supernatural as different. Sorcery doesn’t exist in Traveller, but psionics do. If you want to commit a logical fallacy and go “but it’s all supernatural therefore it must all br magic” , do that at your own table.
>>98326980>because every game presents its idea of what is and isn’t supernatural as differentDoesn’t really matter when the supernatural is quite literally a psychological affair. It’s relative. Nature that is weird. I don’t care how “supernatural” your magic system is; a hypothetical higher dimensional alien (God) would look at it like it’s not supernatural at all. Does God view His miracles as miraculous? Probably not. It’s all just reality at the end of the day, and what you call “supernatural” or “magic” is just a relative position. What you call supernatural won’t be supernatural to another. It might just be “eh”.
>>98326980>Sorcery doesn’t exist in Traveller, but psionics do.Are the psionics seen as heretical? Evil? Out of the ordinary? Bizarre? Totally “wtf”? You don’t know what magic is. It’s not a specific substance or thing beyond the mind’s eye. You don’t even need words like magic for it. It’s a sensation.
>>98327078Mare, I just prefer to engage each fiction on its own terms. Irl it’s all hokey make believe bullshit, so I don’t personally care if you decide someone claiming they can bend spoons with their mind is really a Druid or whatever, or if you want to declare Bigfoot a wonderful creature like they’re some kind of archangel. That’s your thing, cool. But if the game’s fluff I’m playing says thst spoonmancers and druids are two completely differently related things and enforces it by the rules, then that’s what I’m going with. And I don’t care if you don’t like it. I keep my personal beliefs about fairy tale shit separate from my games so I can have fun instead of getting wrapped up in autistic arguments that I didn’t start.>>98327082Maybe read a copy of Traveller.>You don’t know what magic isNeither do you, Wonderfag.
>>98327078This is a pointless distinction designed to cause an argument that has no possible resolution and serves no other purpose. Stories and worlds are not written for the benefit of a fictional in-setting entity, they are written in the language of and understanding of a human reader on this Earth. What is possible or not possible for US is what defines was is magical or supernatural in a given work of fiction, regardless of whether anyone within that world would consider it unusual or not. Taken to its logical conclusion, your hyper-relativism argument is akin to saying that matters of law and legality cannot be discussed by anyone for any reason, as just because something is the law of the land in one place doesn't mean it is the law everywhere else as well, so we must agree to disagree. Cool argument, still clocking you upside the head and taking you to jail because you broke the law.
>>98327104If you don’t think magic is psychological, then you don’t know what magic is. You think some glowing blue energy is magic, when it’s actually calling it magic (“magic”) that makes it magic. The perception of it. You are too autistic to grasp that. That glowing blue energy might NOT be magic to the green alien who uses glowing green energy.
>>98319131It's magic if I say it's magic.
>>98327212Sorry, but I don’t believe magic exists in real life. Your attempts to belittle and talk down to me for not believing in the exact same flavor as your autistic fairy tale shit mean absolutely nothing to me. Feel free to reflect on that.
>>98319144Sounds like your bait is weak, old man, and all you can do is posturing abstract concepts
>>98319131Nope.
>>98319275Wrong.
>>98319578Wrong.
>>98323288Wrong.
>>98324954Ironic, lol.
>>98327082Wrong. Magic is a game term referring to a particular subsystem defined by a set of rules.
>>98321318OP has never played a game and never will.
>>98319131Entirely correct, despite the bitching and whining of nogames.If magic is understood, with clear boundaries, functions, behaviors and the like, it's just a science.
>>98327280>Sorry, but I don’t believe magic exists in real lifeIf you don’t consider nature or science to be magical, then you don’t actually appreciate nature or science, do you? You don’t see the value in wonder and mystery. Sad! Many such cases. Zoomers don’t even know how their tabloids work. Only how to work them. Occult infrastructure is everywhere. Gravity is still a mystery to scientists.
>>98328747Wonderfag, I’m only on this board to discuss tabletop games. If you are not interested in doing so, which you are clearly not, then we have nothing further to discuss. Go jerk off about your mystery and wonder on your blog or whatever.
>>98328692The only whining nogame is OP forever assblasted that magic systems used in games don't meet his retarded criteria.
Hocus pocus has its origins in people filling in the overwhelming gaps of natural understanding and interpreting the mysteries of the world, which extended to esoteric assumptions and arcane paraphernalia even among the learned. This is why the stereotypical wizard looks rather indistinguishable from the natural philosophers like Isaac Newton, or Galileo, Paracelsus, Roger Bacon, Albertus Magnus, etc.
>>98328823This desu
Back when machines were seen as feats of wizardry. Before the Renaissance, such intricate mechanisms were so far ahead of their time that they were routinely attributed to ancient myth, the gods, or magical architects.
>>98328846A fucking rectangle
>>98328692Incorrect, rather.
>>98328747valuable doesn't equal magical.
>>98328846Science was literally called “natural magic.” Anything and everything was magic, it was commodified like anything else.
This "wonder and mysterious" shit always comes off as pseud nonsense that has no place in an actual GAME you are meant to be playing. It's exactly the same as the guys who say the only good way to have non-human races is by making them non-playable and with near zero presence and depth, because a lack of information makes it more "interesting."
Trv
>>98323326Who?>>98328410>no argumentDiscarded opinion.
If magic exists, it will be quantified>but it's alien and unknowableSo are many things, and yet we have understood them, studied them and quantified them.There is nothing that the human mind is incapable of understanding. No. I see it in your eyes. I can hear the gears of your mind turning. You are trying to pull something to mind that the human mind cannot understand. I am telling you now - that thing you are trying to pull to mind not only can be understood, we likely already understand it.Nothing is beyond our comprehension.
>>98319141i just tell the gm what my magic does
>>98335998Anon… if you think mysteries don’t still abound, even today, you’re a fool. We still scratch our heads at gravity. Kids don’t know how their tabloids work, only how to work them. Occult infrastructure is everywhere. You don’t need words like “magic” to evoke the sensation of magic. What is magic/mysterious is relative. Eventually you have to find the wonder in what is already known. >Nothing is beyond our comprehension Eventually you’ll have to come to terms with the fact that humans won’t know everything, ever.
>>98335998>There is nothing that the human mind is incapable of understanding. No. I see it in your eyes. I can hear the gears of your mind turning. You are trying to pull something to mind that the human mind cannot understand. I am telling you now - that thing you are trying to pull to mind not only can be understood, we likely already understand it.spoken like a true humantard…confident he’ll be able to step into the eight dimensional manifold without collapse, imagining himself capable of co-existing everywhere every when as a gestalt ego, without losing himself, bahahaha
>>98336081>>98336094And I’m sure this gibberish was at all relevant to the last game you played. Oh, that’s right, you never did in the first place, lol.
>>98336081>We still scratch our heads at gravityDepends on what you mean but either way no.We know how gravity works. There are some tings that are true about gravity, and we know how to deal with those axiomatic things to calculate things. This is pretty well established stuff. What we're working towards now is not the "how" of gravity but the "why" of gravity.But you're also failing to grasp something. It's not that we know everything now. It's that we are capable of understanding anything. There is no concept that is beyond our comprehension.>Kids don’t know how their tabloids work, only how to work them.And yet they are capable of learning these things.>>98336094>imagining himself capable of co-existing everywhere every when as a gestalt egoI have, in fact, taken psilocybin before and came out just fine on the other side. Thanks.
>>98336149>We know how gravity worksWe literally do not.
>>98336149>What we're working towards now is not the "how" of gravity but the "why" of gravity.pretentious gobbledygook string theory hasn’t progressed is seventy years, and gravity in regards to quantum bologna is borderline magic the same way an alien ufo would be borderline magic
>>98336149>It's not that we know everything now. It's that we are capable of understanding anything. There is no concept that is beyond our comprehension.That’s a bold fucking claim, buddy.
>>98332721>pseudI don’t think you know that this means
>>98328846>believes the dark ages chartThe actual history of automata is very interesting, if you want to learn instead of sitting around saying "uh I guess they were all fucking dumb and thought it was wizards or something".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton#Medieval
>>98336149Try fentanyl next, we'll all be better off.
>>98319131Okay, provide specific examples of this in existing properties then please.
>>98339411Provide examples of weird fiction? Ask the AI you ask everything else to.
>>98339439Way to sidestep the question, nogames tard. YOU provide specific examples if it’s so important.
>>98339397The stereotypical capital-w wizard sitting in their tower orrery and fidgeting with arcane contraptions won’t see themselves as a capital-w wizard you huge nerd. Their bar for magic is higher than the muggles. If your elves see themselves as magical, you’re doing it wrong. If your wizards only see themselves as wizards ironically (like Gandalf), you’re doing it properly.
>>98335978>still wrongDiscarded opinion.
>>98339532nope they see themselves as wizards, I asked them
>>98319131I don't think this really works because the more you're exposed to something the more familiar it rapidly becomes, so unless you somehow come up with a design that's inherently novel every time it's interacted with, this isn't a very helpful way to approach magic.Say what you will about liking or not liking Brandon Sanderson, I personally think it's interesting how his systems serve to inform settings and explore the implications of essentially having a different field of science for worlds and how those systems can be learned and exploited for surprising effects similar to the real world because it gives nice flavor and crunch at the same time.
>>98339546Not necessarily so, is the point. “No, it’s stupid. It’s not good enough to be magic. God I hate nature. Life is excruciating and nothing matters! Fuck off!”.
>>98339559My game’s wizards are like that. What are you going to do about it, nogames? That’s right, nothing.
>>98339569I’m just pointing out that semantic warfare is a huge part of wizard battles. Arguing over what is or isn’t deserving of being called magic will truly wound a wizard.
>>98339574Funny, semantics over what is and isn’t magic is one of biggest reasons wars were waged between wizards in the past in my game. And they’re all wrong about it too.
>>98339578It’s a good thing that authors are free to have semantic warfare over what is or isn’t magic as well! Just like humans all over history. Magic to one is not magic to another. Magic in one fiction is mundane in another. Magic is an accusation. Bad or good. Both. Doesn’t matter.
>>98339596Which is why OP is an idiot for making this thread that’s basically trying to essentially box in people’s imagination to his autistic ideals for so many years, especially since none of his rhetoric applies to actual played traditional games.
>98339532Bait used to be believable
>>98339876Thinking something is bait, when it’s not, implies you’re too stupid to detect what’s being said.
>>98319131Weak shit. Magic is the unknown, but triggering memory can make a thing appear more unknown. An element to a style that triggers nostalgia for something undefined creates a greater feeling of wonder and mystery. juxtaposing the familiar and unfamiliar is a more dynamic formula. Which is more magical, something unfamiliar and novel, or something familiar but novel?
>>98340731What the fuck do you think Deja vu is?
>>98340745Your brain farting. But manufacturing the feeling can be useful.
>>98339559Necessarily so, I checked with every wizard who's ever lived and ever will live
Ugh
Yep, I'm right and you lose.
>>98340657Key example on display, I see
>>98339559Schizo retards will pick some random group they don't like and just make up shit about what they believe, either based on one guy they argued with years ago or their own strawman in their head You'll get some people calling atheists earth worshipping pagans, then you'll get this shit.
>>98342612He’s not even wrong though. Once, I called space magical, and my processor freaked out at me. Not my fault boomers can’t handle a force of beauty, causing their amygdala to freak the fuck out.
>>98319131
>>98343395No, he’s pretty damn wrong.
>>98343452If you don’t consider nature or science to be magical then you don’t exactly love or appreciate nature or science, do you?
>>98342510Ironic, lol.
>>98343584Reasoning?
>>98343584Begging the claim. And irrelevant besides.
>>98344882Not being able to have a sensation of wonder of an appreciation for mystery is a sign of a dysfunctional brain. Atheists are soulless grey blobs for the most part. They see a force of beauty and it causes a panic response.
>>98346262So you’re a fallacy spewing off-topic moron.
>>98346268Ok
>>98347976Glad we agree
>>98346262weird, this has nothing to do with what you said. provide reasoning for your assertion. NOW.
>>98319131Yeah, if I had five arms, I'd have one of them constantly pinching my own dick at all times too.
>op seething and necrobumpinglol
>>98327082Magic is real and is not that.t- schitzo.
What I don't get from OP is that magic clearly is made from this pseudo secular understanding that we have normal things , that sometimes people tapped into , or that sometimes entered your life.Magic in fantasy setting was made with an understanding, even if a play pretend one, that magic was real and that magical traditions were a thing unto themselevs.That is what the wizard is ment to be then.
>>98350080For example , a simple story of a brave warrior that has the magical power of hippos over him.One could argue that the magic is the wonder of a man destroying men after men in quick succesion , or the ability to carry so much as if it was nothing.But if magic is just the wonder. Then were did his strengh come from?
>>98350080>>98350102You put far more thought into it than OP ever did. The short and long of it is that for all his talk, OP is one of those types that can’t envision the apple in his head. It doesn’t matter if someone can posit a reality where someone can manipulate matter with special words and rituals, he can’t envision it so everyone must not be able to and this are liars. The idea that fiction and reality aren’t one-to-one just shortcircuts his brain cells, and he’s spent his time trying to justify it by claiming only he understands what is natural and unnatural, hence his obsession with mystery and wonder and obsession with calling everyone who disagrees an incel-atheist type. Fiction imo exists for humans to believe in things that aren’t true. How else will we prepare ourselves to try and make them real?
>>98340731>Magic is the unknownNo it’s not. The word mage and wizard both literally just mean “wise man” as in “guy that knows a lot.” Magic is esoteric, but not always unknown. It’s like none of you people know what historical magicians actually were or did. Magic is based on wisdom/knowledge acquired from known truths about the nature of things that can be applied via ritual to create actual effects. It IS highly spiritual though, and trying to make it purely “scientific” or points-based is gay.
>>98351545They don’t play games at all to know the difference. The main reason that ttrpgs even make magic in any way points based is to keep the mechanical aspect of it from getting over-complicated. Flavor’s fine and all, but you need more than just vibes for a game.
Hmm...
>>98351839Oh yeah I don’t disagree, because I actually play TTRPGs, of course there’s a need for balance and ease of use. Trying to talk my group into letting me run Ars Magica at the moment though. I’m just saying peoples’ analysis is usually flawed because of a limited grasp on what makes magic magic in a sense that imbues a setting with verisimilitude.
>>98352299I’ve only ever found that kind of thing fun as purely role playing, in a nerd debate sort of way. One of my player characters is a sentient magic staff, and a fair chunk of her time that’s not spent sharing her mafia knowledge with other player character is trying to understand all this modern shit that’s popped up since she was left to sit in a dank dark wizard tower for a thousand years or so. She can grasp the concept of computers and stuff fine, for example, but she can’t watch a Harry Potter without lecturing to anyone within ear shot how magic isn’t just “waving a magic stick and saying some funny words, there’s a process and art to it”.
>>98352457Well yeah, it’s fluff. It’s a role playing game.
>>98319131I'm playing a game, so what should I do, make random tables for everything because oh so magical?
>>98351845It’s worse on other boards.
>>98351545Damn man who knew that words never evolve and change meaning. I bet when someone says "Janitor" you correct that that it's a latin word for gatekeeper and not the guy pushing a mop bucket around.>>98351839Was literally responding to the OP, who wasn't talking about real games. You retards must be new here.
>>98361065>Was literally responding to the OP, who wasn't talking about real gamesSo you were knowingly off-topic and thus contributing to board spamI think you’re the retard here.
>>98351545>Magic is esoteric, but not always unknown.Are you too stupid to see the overlap between the two? Esoteric means out of view. Fucking idiot. This board keeps hair splitting and I’m getting fucking tired of it. Stop it.
>>98351545All of that is based around mystery and the ineffable. AKA the unknown. AKA the esoteric. AKA the occult. AKA the arcane. A wise man is magical because he knows things you don’t. Can do things you can’t. Magic at its core is about mystery.
>>98351545>The word mage and wizard both literally just mean “wise man” as in “guy that knows a lot.” >Magic is based on wisdom/knowledge acquired from known truths about the nature of things that can be applied via ritual to create actual effects. Sounds nebulous anon. Maybe you should consider how people perceive the wizard. Mystery is one sided. What is mysterious to the wizard is likely a whole other tier of mystery. Magic and mysticism go hand in hand. Even the capital-w wizards (who won’t necessarily consider themselves as such) will be confronting their own mysteries. Their own edges and limits.
>>98361906The fucks don’t even realize that rigid scientific ritual/ceremonial magic like Hermetic magic WAS a form of mysticism. Mystery is in the NAME. Fuck. People like >>98351545 are honestly some of the most infuriatingly dense and obtuse posters around. This level of pedantry and hairsplitting is vomit inducing. Humans love to box things redundantly and I want to gouge their eyes out with my thumbs.
>>98361908It’s not entirely their fault, since they were weaned on low effort garbage like Dee en Dee that only serve to mis-educate. Your insults will only make them argue harder, since they don’t want to accept being led astray.
>>98361908A lot of people today are in denial about the occult infrastructure all around them.
>>98361895>>98361906>>98361908>>98361917>>98361921Why are you talking to yourself?
>>98319131Ok then, so go play Nobilis and fuck off.
>>98361944Why are you so bad at semantics?
>>98362009I’m not the one talking to himself to bump his own stupid thread
>>98362556You and everyone else on this website are always accusing each other of being the same person. I don’t know why you think you’re unique or special.
>>98328692All things which interact with the physical world can be measured, and therefore, the scientific method can be applied, but that does not mean it conforms with our ideas of how things ought to work. Not to mention that supernatural phenomena may gain scientific pretensions - see ghost hunting equipment - yet they remain fantastical. Besides, what is science in another world can still be magic to us. Forget about being nogames, you are a nothink.
>>98362875Its called solipsism
>>98362875I’m definitely not you nor OP, and I’m glad for that.
Bump.
Bump
>>98319131You’re not wrong but you’ll trigger the mega autistic regardless
this board sucks big balls
>>98373504God I wish that were me.
>>98375535Why did you bump this from page 10
>>98319131>Remember, folks. The more useless, the more magical. Magic is that vital lack of utility. Impractical and pointless.Fuck off, tools have to be at least somewhat understandable or they're bad tools, and if magic can't be used as a tool then it's not going to get used at all.
>>98319131You would probably like this>https://imgchest.com/p/dl7pzjzjyox
>>98319131Remember that OP is a faggot.
>>98319131Correct.
>>98375922Perhaps twice. A double-faggot.
Remember folksThis thread was made by a faggot
>>98386136Says you, a ginormous faggot
>>98386136>>98389804As chief faggot inspector, I declare that these are two plump healthy young faggots.
>>98393934And you’re the faggot who touches himself as he watches them do it
>>98386136Bumpfaggot...
It is!
.
>>98319476>Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.Reminder that this idea is younger than our current president
>>98322988>You think psionics aren’t magic?Psionics =/= magic =/= reality bending, unless your setting is shit
>>98336094>confident he’ll be able to step into the eight dimensional manifold without collapse, imagining himself capable of co-existing everywhere every when as a gestalt egoYeah I sleep every night. Lmao @ non-physicoids who have to "try" to dream.
nononoNoNoNONONO dont bring up gravity and quantum physics in the magic thread DONT BRING UP QUANTUM PHYSICS IN THE MAGIC THREADhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(quantum_information)>In 2024–2025, quantum magic was detected in top quark pairs produced at the Large Hadron Collider; it is the first observation of this property in fundamental particle collisionsNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>98403631This is about as stupid as calling a particle the “god particle”. Why are scientists so fucking retarded with their labels?
>this thread againUgh.
>>98403603This is like saying red isn’t a colour because red isn’t blue.
>>98403603Magic in typical fantasy fiction is typically seen as reality bending
>>98405247>red is blue because blue is a colourDo you hear yourself?>>98414644>Magic in DnDogshit is typically seen as reality bendingThanks for proving my point anon!
God this thread is awful
>>98416183Remember that there are retards in this world that want your table top games to be just like this thread, too, aka just evenings of fart sniffing smug retards arguing over how telekinesis works for the fiftieth time in a row because they think that a game shouldn’t have consistent rules regarding magic. And they’re the ones making threads like this.
>>98319141wrongsee: wish
>>98416470>i personally somehow mysteriously always end up in arguments with those people therefore all they ever want to do is arguemaybe you failed to notice some other pattern...
>>98417033That /tg/ is full of retards, since I’ve never seen anyone else make that kind of retarded argument anywhere but here?
Idiots.
Fucking retards.
>OPPlease kill yourself.
>>98426080What’s the matter? Don’t like discussion?
>>98427292
>>98427439Cute
>98319131Knock it the fuck off nigger
ugh
>>98319131Why does this piss people off? Isn’t that the whole point of magic?
>>98438613Cause autists have spammed threads about it constantly for years to the point people are sick of it. That, and there's "magic" in regards of how players describe the mystical bullshit the player characters say/believe/perform, and then there's "magic" in regards to particular functions in a game such as instant healing and special forms of damage dealing. And those same autists making these threads will shit their pants and sperg hard if you ever talk about the latter.
>>98319131can't you just both have mechanical magic and mistical more actual magic , by just having rules and conditions that the DM (and maybe even players sometimes) can use that change how the magic works.something as simple as having to roll for spells , could in theory give the spells some of that real life mistisim.like a divination spell that works on a coin toss , but your character is forced to belive its true.that is how it works irl I think.I feel like this is just a problem of wonderfag wanting to wax poetically about the true nature of magic , but he doesn't want to put that in a way that would fit games.even just the simple idea of the DM being able to change the spells slightly for roleplaying reasons (within reason) , could really make the wizard feel like a wizard.I feel like this is a problem that is very difficult to solve in something like a videogame , but for normal games this should really not be an issue , you just have to not be lazy about it.
>>98440495on a similar note of magic , wonder and mistery.I think I cursed myself with the curse of typing and talking like a retard.I flew too close to the sun and what not.so if you see anything wierd with how I am typing and more importantly something wrong , please tell me what exactly is wrong.
>>98440495For what it's worth, the main issue is that people like wonderfag only cares to drone on about his theories regarding magic because he doesn't know nor care how those theories apply in practice to actual games. None of their thoughts regarding games matter because they refuse to acknowledge that games still need to function as games in some manner, or they just become texts written by failed fiction writers. And in terms of "magic", the reason people here insist on magic having consistent rules in their game when this subject comes up is not (solely) due to autism but primarily because defined rules are essentially compromise between a GM and the players at the table over it. To make magic "wonderous and mysterious" in the way most of these nogames say, aka making the usage and acquisition of magic powers as vague to the players as it would be to the player characters, is to cede as much of the control of the functions of magic and thus the functions of one's character to the GM, ultimately turning it into a game of "mother may I?", which not everyone will agree to.And if that's too abstract to consider, I'm going to put it like this. If you were in a game with no outlined rules regarding what magic does or doesn't do, and you declare that your wizard casts a spell that turns them into a god that has full control over all reality for all time in every infinite omniverse, forever and now...the exact moment the GM looks you in the eye and says "No, that's not happening", then that's that. You can't do it. Cause rule zero still trumps everything, even magic. Which is why for the interests of fairness people look more at magic in terms of the rules agreed upon by both GM and players.TL;DR Nobody is interested in stopping wonderfag waste his life talking about magic, they just think his ideas are stupid because people want less rules lawyering between the GM and the player regarding how their own damn character is supposed to function.
>>98436114>ughBBEG
>>98440495>can't you just both have mechanical magic and mistical more actual magicyes, obviously, that's how it actually is in any context like a game or story where magic is used
>>98440628You sound 10x more obsessed than he is. It’s also funny that you think wonder and mystery will impede the rules if done correctly, or that the players’ characters will ever be aware of the fourth wall and what lies beyond it. You really do seem to only care about the mechanics, and not the actual narrative at play, which could be said to be a mechanic as well (most tabletop roleplaying games will have its setting, story and roleplaying sections). Listen, guy. Learn how to put yourself into another’s shoes. Learn to roleplay. It will really help you here.
yeh i don't think i've ever seen this mythical wonderfag, but i sure see someone constantly complaining about him
>>98440495>can't you just do bothOf course. It's just a number of severely intellectually disabled people in this thread kvetching because they cannot imagine anything outside of DND's basic rule system. The key to a lack of familiarity is asymmetry. And that isn't difficult to create.
>>98443267> It’s also funny that you think wonder and mystery will impede the rules if done correctlyThen why don’t you tell us how it’s supposed to be done “correctly”? And please be as precise and detailed as possible.> or that the players’ characters will ever be aware of the fourth wall and what lies beyond it…Not a single person was talking about that. Take your meds.> which could be said to be a mechanic as well (most tabletop roleplaying games will have its setting, story and roleplaying sections). Please learn the definition of “mechanics” sometime. You’re talking about theming, a separate element of game design entirely. Listen, guy. Get off the computer and join an actual table. Learn to role play a real game rather than just theorycraft all day. It will really help you here.
>>98444087>yeh i don't think i've ever seen this mythical wonderfag, but i sure see someone constantly complaining about himthat means he is magic to you , but he isn't magical to us.this is the wanderfag sutra if you ever see wonderfag he becomes scifi.
>>98444127I guess my problem is that even though I disagree with wonderfag about how magic works in real life , his actual ideas about magic actually work really well in the context of secular fantasy for modern people.so I can't get why he doesn't use his autism for good use , to help dnd players have more fun.because like , wonderfag doesn't sound like a reddit atheist that just doesn't get magic , he doesn't act like one either.the way he actually acts is like an occultist wizard , meditating on how all magic is fictional deep down.like how I am supposed to implement the fact that wizards don't see themseleves as wizards as a DM.
>>98447063lich: I am going to kill you with my spell , but rest assured it isn't magic , I think this spell is the same as a smartphone philosophically , that is why I dedicated my entire existence with studying magic , but I have never actually studied any a other academic principle in my life , like chemistry.
>>98447063>>98447074The issue is that almost all of these threads are clearly approaching this topic from the perspective of someone writing a book or novel rather than playing a game with other people involved. That’s why it becomes pointless to discuss when one person is approaching the conversation as though the players are just a captive audience being told what they think and feel about “magic” crap instead of human beings who can maintain a level of cognizance that they’re playing pretend and that “magic” is both a pun abstract concept as well as a tool to interact within the world if the game they are playing in. Because whether or not a wizard sees themselves as a wizard in a game of pretend ultimately means dick when the question of if the human pretending to be the wizard thinks of them as such supersedes it by nature. Aka Simon the wizard can say he’s a chemist till the cows come home, nobody’s going to stop him, but that doesn’t change that “Wizard” is written in the character class line on his character sheet. And that really pisses certain autists off.
>>98447063>I guess my problemYour problem is that you spend way too much time trying to "fix" unfixable people. You're not his mother, and have no power over his behaviour. No amount of crying about it in this thread or elsewhere will change his behaviour. It's like the faggots complaining about puckee. Will puckee stop? No. Does giving him attention spur him on? Yes. But do they scroll past his threads? They do not. Self replicating mongoloidism. For example, I will spend exactly this one single post trying to "fix" you into not caring about lunatics on /tg/, but if your next post is you reasserting your problems with wonderfag, or insisting that I should care somehow, I will move on. And you should to. Either wonderfag's solutions work, or they do not. If they work, take the solution, if they do not, discard them, and then move on. Don't linger on problems you cannot fix.
>>98447052>the magic is lost when it becomes scientificUntrue. Science is full of mysteries. We just don’t use the word magic to describe them anymore. But the essence is still there. When a deep sea biologist confronts a new form of deep sea life, all luminescent and beautiful, they’re feeling that same essence of wonder. Confronting mystery. This is what made religion. We just don’t let our imaginations run wild anymore. Or we try not to.
>>98444087He’s quite insane. He thinks anyone trying to make magic, well, magical, is a threat to his games. I don’t know why. He doesn’t care for roleplay or storytelling. Chances are he’s more into playing video games than fantasy immersion.
>>98447063>>98447074>>98447265>>98447463Wow. Are you all brain damaged or something? Magic in Dungeons and Dragons is mysterious (it’s explicitly called the arcane, and the goddess of magic is called the mother of mysteries) despite having a system to it. You CAN have it be systemic and mysterious/magical at the same time. You fucks just don’t LIKE it when it’s like that. Because you seem to only care about the game and not the narrative. You fucks think this is an oil and water issue and that’s fucking hilarious to me. OP is only saying to keep it magical, mysterious. That’s it. Why is this even a thread? Why is there someone constantly screaming “shut up wonderfag” as though he were doing anything severely detrimental? What’s detrimental about making magic mysterious if there’s still mechanics for it? As another said, YOU the player are NOT interpreting the magic/system the same way your character is. That would be metagaming.
>>98449087The person who goes “games?”, “hi wonderfag”, etc, in every goddamned thread is the problem. He will complain about literally anything. Even when it’s talking about a game. He might also be the same person who automatically assumes the maker of the thread is talking about dungeons and dragons 5e unless it’s specified as otherwise.
>>98449087Hi wonderfag.> Because you seem to only care about the game and not the narrative. I like both. You don’t seem to care about either though.> You fucks think this is an oil and water issue and that’s fucking hilarious to meNo, that’s you.> OP is only saying to keep it magical, mysterious. That’s you again.>Why is this even a thread? Why is there someone constantly screaming “shut up wonderfag” as though he were doing anything severely detrimental?Cause you keep spamming these threads, and you act so wounded that some autist disagrees with your dumb opinions.> You CAN have it be systemic and mysterious/magical at the same time.> What’s detrimental about making magic mysterious if there’s still mechanics for it? It’s funny that no matter how many chances you’re had to do so, you’ve never actually elaborate on that in a comprehensible manner. As though you don’t actually believe a word you’re saying or have your so-called beliefs scrutinize. Funny, that.>>98449140 is also you. You’re not fooling anyone.
>>98449042>>98449054>>98449087>>98449140
>>98449199>I like bothBahahaha. You’ve made it apparent that this is not the case. You’re incapable of entertaining the fact that even a hard and rigidly understood system of any kind will STILL have outlier edges and frontiers to it that evoke the mysterious and the unknown and pique a person’s wonder or interest. You’re an autistic person who can’t actually think holistically or break fiction down into its basest parts. You hate the idea that some sufficiently advanced alien might be able to assess and deconstruct even the most mysterious magic system into basically scientific bits and pieces, because it implies that magic is more of a relative angle or position than an objective thing. Again, sort of like how God won’t see his miracles as all that miraculous, or won’t even see himself as a god the same way humans do (humans are gods to ants, but how many humans bask and take pride in this knowledge?). God would have his own god-science. It’s still miraculous/magical on our end. God might still find himself and his doings as wonderful and amazing, even with all the omniscience in existence. Magic is what you make of it.
>>98447463>Your problem is that you spend way too much time trying to "fix" unfixable peopletrue.>>98449087that is kind of what I meant by this >>98447063the advice is good , but its just never connected to something you could use in a roleplaying game , is just recited as a sermon about the true nature of magic.wonderfag just seems like someone who doesn't realize this isn't /x/ , and he needs to connect his incites into traditional games.but overall , the principle of what he believes in could really help magic feel magical.is just not what is being talked about most of the time , what is talked about most of the time is how God(s) need to be atheist and see themselves scientifically.but science means nothing in a tabletop game , it can be as arbitrary as magic , the only thing that matters is that philosophical undertone , but wonderfag kind of doesn't think that exists objectively , only subjectively .also the way you are using mysteries and the way wonderfag uses them is different, magic being a perpetual mystery or being linked to mysteries is different than magic just being the name you give something can't understand.I think adding genuine mysticism to any magic system you are using , in one way or another is a good idea.but that isn't exactly what is happening , its more of a wierd autism war , the conversation will never evolve past this premise , because it doesn't want to.you will not get a thread were people discus different ways they can make genuine use of mysteries , mysticism, spirituality and the occult , for their games in multiple systems , because it isn't about that deep down. even if it isn't wonderfag , the conversation itself started stagnated. if people actually connected their silly shenanigans to the subject matter , in a way that was well presented it be good.
>>98449239I have to make it point blank clear that it’s obvious you’re having a conversation in your head that not a single other person here is having. And that you don’t seem to have played a tabletop game by the way you talk.Also> You CAN have it be systemic and mysterious/magical at the same time.> What’s detrimental about making magic mysterious if there’s still mechanics for it? Still waiting on an answer.
>>98449199>you’ve never actually elaborate on that in a comprehensible mannerDungeons and Dragons is more than fifty years old. Magic has been called arcane for over fifty years. Arcane means what is mysterious and out of view. You’re coping when you claim that magic isn’t mysterious, arcane, esoteric, occult, etc.
>>98449254Ah, so you don’t have an answer and are all just talk. Knew it.
>>98449246>also the way you are using mysteries and the way wonderfag uses them is differentSee, this is how I know you’re low iq and not a good reader, because I AM that guy. You’ve skewed my stance, partially because you’re responding to an insane and schizophrenic retard who thinks I’m everywhere when I’m just not. You’re coming up with disagreements that aren’t even there. Fucking nuts. If you have to feel threatened over someone asking to keep magic, well, magical, which is a very small request to make, just how much of a bitch are you?
>>98449254>point finger>shoot fireballvery wonder, such mysterious, wow
>>98449262Ah, so you’re a troll and you’re ignoring the history of tabletop on purpose because you hate to roleplay. You cannot put yourself into another’s shoes. Can you even envision an apple in your head?
>>98449279To the average peasant that is rather out of the ordinary. Yes. Magic is very much associated with “how did you do that?”.Hilarious that you don’t even know what magic is. Irl technology is taken for granted the same way magic scrolls are in typical fantasy. Eventually magic is just a label.
>>98449278> If you have to feel threatened over someone asking to keep magic, well, magicalYou have never said how people aren’t though. Nor how you think there’s a solution to this problem in your head. Nobody will take you seriously if you can’t even communicate what your issue is.
>If you have to feel threatened over someone asking to keep magic, well, magical, which is a very small request to make, just how much of a bitch are you?/thread
>>98449284Nah, you’re the troll. And I’m mostly just prodding you until my Shadowrun game starts later.
>>98449299Don’t /thread your own thread, wonderfag
>>98449294What? It’s called roleplaying you daft fuck. “Ooh, I wonder what’s in that book of spells…”, “it says I need wing of bat and a child’s tears, how bizarre…”. The spell regents in Dungeons and Dragons are all sorts of nonsense.ARE YOU ACTUALLY THIS FUCKING BAD AT STORYTELLING GAMES LOL
>>98449239>God won’t see his miracles as all that miraculous, or won’t even see himself as a god the same way humans doI am not the same anon you are responding too.but I see this argument as being really wierd , if god just sees himself as superman , why the fuck did he invent spirituality or at least support it like that.you say that he doesn't see his miracles as miracles , but why did he call them that then.even in the context of a more philosophical God , or someone like odin and zeus.why would they tolerate an inferior way of thinking about them , why not just tell people at least a little bit of the God science.what is even science to you , in this context.this implies a wierd thought pattern that spiritual people that also want to understand God , should be this wierd hyper rationalists that are trying to deduce God science.you mention lord of the rings a lot , and I have not read it.but as far as I know , the workings of the highest gods are still presented as something divine , not just as another form of machinery.while the dynamic is their , of magical beings not entirely seeing themseleves as that magical (as far as I know for cultural osmosis).isn't another point on the story about how you should get taken over by the alurs of craftsmanship , like the ring is fucked up.and the orks have factories and some shit , and one angel got currupted because of that.but in your belive system , every single thing is basically just a factory , its basically just the one ring.unless you are going for some kind of like dualism were everything is "chemically" science , but the wonder of things alchemically transforms it , into something different.so peoples devotion and prayer to God makes him devine , but God himself doesn't actually think himself as something special.because we alchemically transformed God.that being said , I do think magic and psychics are a real thing irl and I am trying to use them irl. so that changes my perspective
>>98449310Cute that you think everyone who wants magic to be mystical is someone called the wonderfag ;)
>>98449312Wonderfag, you are still failing to frame any of your posts in a way that are comprehensive. You’re arguing at shadows. All you have effectively said is“I want people to roleplay more at my table”, which is just a preference. Are you so upset that you can’t even explain your own thesis anymore?Also >>98449318 you are clearly so mad that you’re double posting.
>>98449313>god just sees himself as superman , why the fuck did he invent spirituality or at least support it like that.Dear god you’re stupid. HUMANS invented religion you fucking moron. God didn’t have to do anything. God insisting he be worshiped is kind of like insisting your pet rat worship you. Do you REALLY think that God would be impressed with the Christian who blindly believed everything in the Bible at face value? Do you REALLY believe this? Do you? This is why I find Christians stupid. They project and impose their flawed human natures on to the very thing they worship. As though God would ever be like man. “Made in his image” is not literally to mean God is a superpowered human with human flaws. And superpowered beings will totally be worshiped as gods. An alien capable of terraforming planets and blowing up stars is more godlike than Zeus. The Christian God to the modern day physicist will see God as just some huge ass higher dimensional alien who perceives space and time as a whole.
>>98449313their is also just something contradictory about God not seeing himself as God.like we define God as God , and God knows that God is him , but he can't agree with this basic fact because he has God science.like , doesn't God need to know he is God , otherwise when he says he is God he would be lying because he isn't God.or is he God , but because he is God he HAS to have a wrong impression of himself , or the impression is right dispite the contradiction.I mean , we are talking about God here , he has gotten to wackier hijinks before , but still.it doesn't seem scientific of you wonderfag.not using logic and stuffif science told me I was a wizard , then aren't I forced to be a wizard , even if I can't cast spells or something , I would still be a wizard , because science told me.
>>98449335What's your fixation on aliens? Did you get anal probed and lose half your brain cells or something?
>>98449331I feel like you’re at a loss, and can’t actually argue back, considering you’ve gone out of your way to ignore the story aspect of games. You are not my equal. Most likely you’re someone on the spectrum who gets angry when someone points out the science fiction is a variant of fantasy.You are not a smart person. Not very logical at all!
>>98449336>their is also just something contradictory about God not seeing himself as God.>theirEsl jeet be goneAlso, you only need to be godlike to be received/perceived as a god. Simple as.You’re a fucking faggot dumbass if you think God will look at himself the same way his followers do. You disrespect God even. You’re attempting to dominate him. Fuck off. I’m not even religious. I find this logic abhorrent.
>>98449342Alien means alien. Europeans were aliens once. God is by default an extra terrestrial. External to the terrestrial sphere.If you think alien just means little green men in flying saucers. You’re not a very smart or literate individual. Please broaden your vocabulary. It will help you.
>>98449345You post like an LLM that’s progressively breaking down. It’s funny, but kind of disconcerting how trapped in your head you are.I play tabletop games just fine. I’ve run several with friends. We have fun pretending magic is real in the context of the game despite more than a few not believing it exists in real life. Some are atheists, some don’t care, a couple are into pagan stuff.And you say this is some kind of issue? Okay, why? What is the issue? Do you not like how other people play games? Do you want to dictate how people role play out their magical people? Are you somehow angry people enjoy rolling dice as well as narrating how they decide their player characters do shit?What exactly are you after?
>>98449336>if science told me I was a wizard , then aren't I forced to be a wizardThe capital-w wizard won’t necessarily see themselves as a capital-w wizard. The same way the fairy like elves in middle-earth don’t see themselves as magical. Only men do. Elves see the wizards (wise alien beings sent to guide the lesser races) the same way men see the elves. Gandalf isn’t a wizard back home in Valinor. The black machines of Mordor are likened to witchcraft due to how horrific it is. Magic is position.
>>98449358Better watch your ass bro, the Martians are coming back.
>>98449371So you’re just a casual, then. Wow. That is even more fucking pathetic. Chances are you play with women. >>98449376Resorting to deflective, demeaning humor is a sign you don’t actually understand the context of what is being said. Your brain is too tired.
The issue is people want magic to always be magic, and always be called magic. They ignore that magic is a sensation and what is magic to one won’t be magic to another. This is all just fucking semantics. Like trannies demanding people say cismale instead of male. To the average bloak on the side of the road, sex and gender mean the same damn thing.
>>98449381>Dude, what are you looking to accomplish?>WOOOOOOOOW SO STUOID I BET YIU OLAY WITH WOMENAnd you wonder why people have given up on talking to you and just troll you, consider you can’t answer a straightforward question if a gun was held to your head
>>98449392I think the problem is that the thread is full of autists arguing past each other over phantom strawmen.
>>98449393You’re why this hobby has been ruined. You only play these games superficially. You can get off my fucking board. You’re no different from a tourist. You’ve already made it clear that you hate narrative and roleplay and fantasy in its essence. You are a swine.
>>98449381>Resorting to deflective, demeaning humor is a sign you don’t actually understand the context of what is being said. Your brain is too tired.t. got bullied in grade school for bein a sperg and still hasn't gotten over it
>>98449399I think you’re the only one saying that shit, wonderfag. The fact that you’re too much of a coward to answer a straight and simple question explains why the world building threads put you in the time out corner and laughed at you. It’d sad, really.
>>98449405>lol your mom gay Jesus Christ. You’re literally an unga bunga meathead on the nerd board. What are you even doing here?
>>98449432Resorting to deflective, demeaning humor is a sign you don’t actually understand the context of what is being said. Your brain is too tired.
>>98449468Bahaha. Triggered much? Act like a child and you’ll get treated like a child.
>>98449473You’re not a very smart or literate individual. Please broaden your vocabulary. It will help you.
>>98449392There is no problem if you don't try to argue with the setting presented by the GM.
>>98449335>Dear god you’re stupid. HUMANS invented religion you fucking moron. God didn’t have to do anything. God insisting he be worshiped is kind of like insisting your pet rat worship you.like in the DND day were we create our gods or something.>Do you REALLY think that God would be impressed with the Christian who blindly believed everything in the Bible at face value? Do you REALLY believe this? Do you?the thing is , isn't that what you are championing , taking the bible at face value is more scientific than being a schitzo that personally , its the difference as a matter of fact of seeing the bible as just a historical book or as a magical artififact that personally speaks to you and is trying to help you achive salvation , but if God science is real , then why should we not use that to be with the lord better , salvation is just an engeniring problem.>This is why I find Christians stupid. They project and impose their flawed human natures on to the very thing they worship. As though God would ever be like man. “Made in his image” is not literally to mean God is a superpowered human with human flaws.isn't that exactly what you are arguing though? , I am confused.the elfs see themseleves as normal people/humans , gandalf sees himself as a normal person/human.specially with the ant analogy and with God science , aren't you arguing that God is just a scaled up human , its just the wonder of seeing him be like this , that makes him divine?.>The Christian God to the modern day physicist will see God as just some huge ass higher dimensional alien who perceives space and time as a whole.I mean, I feel like physicist would at least be interesting on the fact that God created their fieeld of study , like at least from a simulation theory standpoint. I guess I could see the rest making sence , but I personally see that as just the consequence of physicist being an homosexual.maybe if they pray hard enough they get a spoiler , as a treat.
>>98449345You're the troll that shits up every sci-fi thread with his worthless "akchully..."?
>>98449530Some gods in DnD explicitly do not want to be worshiped or perceived as gods.
>>98449530>taking the bible at face value is more scientific than being a schitzoUm. Faith does not require truth. Never has. The bible isn’t meant to be truthful. It’s filled with impossible things. It’s more so a collection of fables and metaphors.
>>98449513Lol.>>98449532If you think science fiction isn’t a form of fantasy you’re sadly not a smart person.
>>98449352>Also, you only need to be godlike to be received/perceived as a god. Simple as.>You’re a fucking faggot dumbass if you think God will look at himself the same way his followers do. You disrespect God even. You’re attempting to dominate him.and you aren't , I am open minded to the idea that God would have different perspectives about himself than what people think , but I think this forcefull idea that God has to think of himself as a wierd alien , to be hubris and just wierd with the premise itself.I think , I let God have breathing room to express himself , I don't think he has to be the same as how for example Americans view him.and in part that is what I said in this >I mean , we are talking about God here , he has gotten to wackier hijinks before , but still.yea God could not think himself as God , God could be God and objectevlyh not be God.but I just stand at the reason as to why of it all , I do think that God probably does have a more complicated relationship with something like science or rationalism than we are lead to believe , because he invented it all or at least parts of it , and then we filled in the gaps.people make claims about the nature of God all the time , in fact its because you made one , a very strong one about his very nature , that I am confused by that logic.it doesn't sit well with me , it feels like missing the point a little bit , at least let me explore the premise before you call me a heteric. their is something interesting about the idea that God is an atheist , but like anon. I'm not just gonna take it for free just because you said it to me. God is important , you need to put your all into stuff like this. and mind you , you are the one who put that in their , you didn't have to use the abrahamic God nor the philosophical God.a lot of Gods in fantasy settings already act like uber aliens , you specifically went to a place were its debatable if that is the case.
>>98449573You keep using that word “fantasy” the way twitter uses the word privilege. Aka to mean whatever you want. If you want to be respected, you should try acting respectable in turn.
>>98449581>a lot of Gods in fantasy settings already act like uber aliens That’s essentially what a god is in the majority of fantasy fiction. Especially if they aren’t native to the same world or plane. A god without followers or a religion is essentially just a godlike alien being. God would have been the sole lifeform before he made humans. So not really a God until he made lessers to behold him.
>>98449342>What's your fixation on aliensits also kind of weird , because aliens are turning into wizards if the schitzo alien community is to be believed.
>>98449358are you an alien to your own home , just because you went on a vacation?
>>98449585So you think that Star Trek isn’t fantasy to the sufficiently educated physicist? Okay. >>98449598Aliens have always been a part of the world of the occult. The greatest, wisest and most knowledgeable wizards are of the inhuman sorry. Gandalf (all five wizards really) is the equivalent of a sagely alien sent down to act as a wiseman. A wizard. Someone from the future, or an alien crashed landed, could very easily don the part, or pointy hat.
>>98449609I think you’ve a vital misunderstanding of what alienness is. You’ve already been to your home, so that wouldn’t be alien. Had you been away for twenty years? Maybe it would be a bit more alien then. “How alien.”.
>>98449620Wonderfsg, you’re the only one talking about Star Trek. Hell, you have yet to even attempt to explain what you mean when you say you want to see mystery and wonder in roleplaying games beyond “just roleplay it out lol”, which is already a thing most tables do. So you’re basically upset over people already doing the thing you say they aren’t doing. It’s fucking weird.
>>98449620of the inhuman sort*
>>98449641You’re dodging the point. Star Trek is flat out fantasy in space to someone who isn’t uneducated about physics. There is no sound in space, that’s not how relativity works, and Vulcans are literally just space elves (some even have telekinetic abilities), etc. It’s the same with Star Wars, Stargate, etc.
>>98449597>God would have been the sole lifeform before he made humans. So not really a God until he made lessers to behold him.well , even on the logic that God is just a term of autority and not one of divinity.using wonderfag logic , I wonder if that would be acurate.because inanimate objects still exist , can't they wonder too? can't they be lessers.if a guy can move around all stars around like a holla hoop , is he not just a God to them. even if he just got the power from fucking a rabit and its actually pretty normal?
>>98449651…So, were you ever going to answer my question or just keep dicking around arguing about fiction classification?
>>98449629but even then, isn't tecnically God in the same room as us , right now.because omnipresence and stuff, I mean their is clearly a subjective angle were God seems to be alien , at least unless we get into wierd subconcius mysticism.but objectively speaking , it seems like the use of alien doesn't fit.
>>98449620>Aliens have always been a part of the world of the occult. The greatest, wisest and most knowledgeable wizards are of the inhuman sorry.yea , and they seem to think of their magic as magic. don't they?I mean , maybe we should not trust aliens implicitly , I guess it depends but their does seem to be an inseparable mistism to it , from what I have seen from the alien schitzo community.
>>98449569yes , but that is magical thinking that assumes some level of objectiveness and autority to the supernatural , to the magical.faith is magical in a way that is ment to work.otherwise we need to get that God science in motion and forcefully cure unsalvation or something.
>>98449585yes, fantasy should only be used in the most boringly standardized sense, only those who derive from tolkien are writing fantasy, don't you dare include your own fantasizing in it or what you're making will just be cope
>>98449733So, dicking around with fiction classification it is, okay. You know that >>/lit/ is that way, right?
what if I play with a bunch of wizards that think magic is real and we cast spells at each other while we cast spells at some goblins .and we happen to see magic as a completly different thing , than chemistry.
>>98449751stop being autistic, he's clearly using fantasy in the normal sense, not in the genre sense
>>98449573It IS you. Nobody cares about your retarded crusade. People will continue to use treat separate genres as separate because aesthetics matter regardless of how much ass-pain it causes you.
>>98449779No, anon, I’m saying that I don’t give enough of a shit to argue with this particular autist about semantics and that he sounds like he wants to pick a fight with >>>/lit/ over this shit
>>98449659>because inanimate objects still exist , can't they wonder too?A wooden chair doesn’t have a brain. It has no mind’s eye. Unless you’re some sort of animist who sees life in everything - but even then it’s not the same.
>>98453699do we trully have a minds eye or are we just biocomputer npcs.I mean I think we have a minds eye , but is minds eye magic or science.
I sure am glad that I play Mage: the Ascension, so I never have to have these sorts of arguments about magic.
>>98456898how does magic work on Mage: the Ascension.some of my wizard friends play it.
>>98447463Puckee is a literal redditor though, he spammed his slop art on the draw threads and character threads to the point the latter threads are basically dead now. By doing nothing, puckee will just spread to other threads and make other low quality threads to fill up this dying board.
>>98438613No. It isn't.
>>98438755There is no difference between these things. Everything that exists in a game is instantiated by its rules.
>>98444127If there aren't rules for it, it doesn't exist.
Retarded thread
>>98319131No.
>>98472634kind of is, or at least it's a vital componentif you're already familiar with magic then it's just a smartphone or gun to you, and nobody calls those magic outside of contrived mental gymnastics
>>98480339Except those times when it’s still treated as magic, aka most settings
>>98480534name ten settings where wonder and mystery aren't part of their magic
>>98480611Why? How about you name ten where it actually matters?
>>98480339Isn't, rather.
>>98319476>Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.Anon, define "Magic".We live in a universe where energy is constantly being Created AND Destroyed, where matter can exist in multiple places at the same time, where time isn't linear, and where everything you percieve is an illusion conjured by your brain to protect itself from the true nature of the chaos that surrounds it.The classical newtonian understanding of things like "conservation of matter/energy" were proven to be objectively WRONG assumptions created by a limited sample size by the fields of quantum physics and astorphysics 80 years ago. The people learning about the old shit are straight-up being taught Wrong, like how history classes still teach kids that columbus discovered the world was round.We barely understand a fraction of a fraction of the actual universe, and you're here trying to act like you know what can and can't exist?
>>98319476>Magic is unquantifiable, since mathematically speaking, magic can't exist in our world.Mathematically speaking magic can’t truly exist in fiction either when it’s objectively just a subjective point of perception.
>>98403600our current president is older than the country he was elected for. wrong example.on a more serios note , can you give me some sources anon , I agree with you and are personally facinated by the subject.
>>98481842>We live in a universe where energy is constantly being Created AND Destroyedhuh? i was taught wrong, then. where do I study this?
>>98482619he's either talking about quantum noise, in which case it's cope, or he's talking about the big bang, in which case it's true but not observably constant
>>98319131Yes.
bump
pmub
More and more do I notice that people just want their magic to always be perceived as magic. To always be called magic. That it might not be perceived as magic, or called magic, threatens their fantasy escapism.
>>98497509Keep whining to yourself, wonderfag
>>98497509>fantasy escapism isn't real and that's why people like it You just figuring this out?
>>98497525How am I wrong? One setting’s wizard isn’t another setting’s wizard. What is magic in one fiction isn’t going to be magic in another. Clearly magic is about positioning perception rather than anything objective (although subjective perception is quite objective).
>>98497534It’s like this in real life, though. Christians insisting that their God sees Himself the same way they do. It’s all a projection.
>>98497539Thing is you’re the only one here upset about this non-issue. So what if someone wants to treat mystic shit as that if not? Does it hurt you in any way how another table decides to roleplay?
>>98497549So what? Does someone not believing the same things you do cut you so deep? Are you that fragile?
>>98497551It’s only an issue if it impacts your games, which it won’t, not unless one of your characters is playing an ultra rationalist.
>>98497614Yeah, so why is he so upset about it?
>>98497575The issue is people can’t stand when opposing perceptions show up. “The rule book said I’m a wizard. So I’m a wizard!”“No sorry you’re actually a Bigalojew. My character’s culture says so!”In foreign translations of Dungeons and Dragons, the wizard and sorcerer classes are often translated/read awkwardly as “spell-man and magic-man”, respectively, which seems redundant, no?In some fictions the term sorcerer denotes a learned and scholarly magical person, or is a wizard by any other name, and as such D&D is a bit odd.
>>98497634His character deconstructs language to the point where calling something magic or not is a matter of pure irony. That’s it.
>>98497634"Okay guys, we've finally arrived at the villain’s evil lair, which appears to be filled with evil spooky magic stuff."“What foul sorcery is this?”“Um, ackchyually, the enemy identifies as a Wizard, so it would be ‘What WIZARDRY is this’, you bigot. Respect their profession.”“What the fuck. It’s evil and heretical and demonic and I don’t like it. Therefore witchcraft.”“Ackchyually, a Witch is a female Warlock who makes Pacts with-““Please shut the fuck up.”
>>98497645…So, people don’t like it when you whine to them that they can’t pretend to be a a wizard in a game of pretend because of YOUR autism?
>>98497671No wonder wonderfag doesn’t play games if that’s how he reacts
>>98497549>It’s like this in real life, though.Anon... I hate to break it to you but ttrpgs and the imagination aren't happening in real life. There are already half a dozen threads where you can see this explained to you and we know you can't separate this one. You'll just have to believe us.
>>98497673No, I’m just pointing out that a cleric and a wizard are interchangeable going by irl historical trends. A cleric is someone who is a part of a clergy, and the most wizardly individuals in medieval Europe, who inspired the stereotypical image of the scholarly and learned wizard, were typically clergymen of the Church, or had been in correspondence with them.
>>98497692Hey, buddy, did you know that all fantasy stems from irl projections? Fantasy wouldn’t exist without the real to look to, to contrast, “hey, what if…”. The stars will always be stars no matter how they’re perceived. They’re perceived because they’re there.
>>98497695>going by irl historical trends.See you're doing it again.
>>98497702>everything is derivative so everything must be the same lol okay wonderfag I'm sure you're going to speed run to death and nothingness because its all the same.
>>98497695…So what?
>>98497702Wonderfag, I’m sorry to say that the Wizard of Oz wasn’t a documentary.
The wizard is the "wise clerk".The word wizard comes from wise and ard/art, while cleric shares roots with clerk, both denoting an educated man, record keeper, etc.
So what? Who cares?
>>98497704Doing what? Being educated? More and more it seems like this is just you being upset at your own lack of knowledge or historical awareness. >>98497725Lol. Oz and Wonderland are metaphorical tales describing dreams. They’re fictional even within their own fiction.
>>98497736You’ve yet to make a point with your stupid babble beyond that you’re a gameless loser because you can’t contain your autism for even a. Knute.
>>98497736>hur monadism means I'm educated lmao
Magic and art/artifice are inseparable and yet retarded dungeons and dragons also has the absolute gall to separate wizards from artificers lmao, such uneducated fags. Those grimoires that begin with the Latin root/prefix Ars? It means ART.
>>98497768Are you just treating this place as a dumping ground because twitter banned you?
>>98497775Nah. I’m telling all the people that think technology has nothing to do with magic to fuck off up their own assholes.
>>98497800Okay, so complain about it on your blog if it’s such a bother to you. Cause it sounds like a personal gripe over anything that matters.
>>98497815That one beloved game where it has technology fighting against magic? Yeah it’s horse shit. Fuck it. It’s so gay.
>>98497820…This really is just your dumping ground because you’re too pathetic to grab a blog, huh?
>>98497833You’re a brick wall to me. I doubt you’re even a conscious human being!
>>98497842Thanks for affirming it. Well, guess I’ll continue to play tabletop games while you languish in your own soiled pants screaming at phantoms, wonderfag. And I’ll keep calling my wizard as such for the fun of it.
>>98497852Keep thinking the player characters see their world the same way the players do, you roleplaylet.
>>98497874At least I play games :)
>>98497889Sucks that you can’t immerse yourself in the world, tho. Your pure beep boop beep. You see someone get bewildered by something and you have a meltie. “No! There is a perfect rules basic scientific explanation for it! And it’s called wizardry!”. To which the bewildered person tells you “Yeah, it’s wizardry because I don’t understand it—it’s wizardry to you because YOU understand it!”.Simple as. Learn to think interchangeably. To be another person.
>>98497914I think you’re hallucinating and arguing with someone that doesn’t exist. My wizard calls himself that because he wants to. It’s a label of personal choice. I’m plenty immersed in my role playing game character when I play games.You on the other hand still don’t play games :)
>>98497509no it treatens my irl magic.t-"wizard"
>>98497549but wonderfag you are also projecting him as a rationalist alien that belives in science.in theory science should be as subjective as magic.
>>98498175>in theory science should be as subjective as magic…..no? science is as simple as math; you cannot have any sort of reality without math, or causality/science science in its essence is not subjective; it is reality working as intended
>>98498427science is just the feeling of rationality , a tecpriest doesn't see what he does as rational , when you are cooking you aren't thinking of this as science.knowlege though replication is currently really usefull , but science should just be about feeling in controll and seeing something as cold and more "real" than other things.
>>98498521>science is a feeling uh, no, no it isn’t
>>98498521>when you are cooking you aren't thinking of this as science.Cooking is an applied science. Same way technology is an applied science. >knowlege though replication is currently really usefulIt’s the most useful form of understanding, period, since it relies on the thing that allows reality to even progress. Causality. Cause and effect. Science is, quite simply, the most simple and most basic thing of all. Shit Happens. Science is a process aiming at figuring out processes, and processes are why we can even determine anything at all. “Remember kids, the only real difference between proper science and fucking around is writing it down.”You can’t actually remove science from anything. It’s not a one sided method we apply, not even Einstein thought of it that way. He saw it as a background symphony playing its cosmic tune, for all time, independent of our ability or willingness to listen in. Scientism is probably the only true -ism that isn’t fucked. The only people who decry it are sadly misinformed about how pure and basic science is. It’s not complicated - which is something Einstein also had feared - “if you can’t explain it simply enough, then you don’t understand it well enough”. Einstein hated pretentiousness. Scientists acting like something is a lot more complex than it is. That is NOT how you educate.
>>98498668>>98498698>It’s the most useful form of understanding, period, since it relies on the thing that allows reality to even progress. Causality. Cause and effect.yea exactly science isn't a thing unto itself , just the feeling of a mechanical cause and effect chain.its just a question of power , God would not see science as scientific , because its a feeling.its the feeling of consistency.whenever a tarot reader gets 5 good reads in a row , that feels scientific to them , like if they are understanding it completely holding control over the thing.an alchemist doesn't see himself as a quemist , inspite of what the lawyeres are telling him. science isn't real , it CAN'T exist. is all about just having power and memorizing power , just as you said anon.>“Remember kids, the only real difference between proper science and fucking around is writing it down.”
>>98498974>science isn't a thing unto itself , just the feeling of a mechanical cause and effect chain.No. It IS cause and effect.
>>98499180science is just the feeling of control.
>>98499194No, it is quite literally cause and effect, and us taking advantage of it. Science is a process that aims to figure out processes. The hand that pokes at nature is first formed by nature.
>>98499213the alchemist using cause and effect doesn't see himself as a scientist. a tarot reading , reading the future is using the cause and effect of a bunch of little gay playing cards to see the future , yet no science.its because they don't feel in control.
>>98499220Rubbing two sticks together to make a fire is a science, regardless of whether the cavemen doing it see it as such.
>>98499249its a feeeeeeeling.
>>98499272No. Magic is a feeling. Science is objective.
>>98497539this is false btw
>>98497671Who are you quoting?
>>98497914I can you can't :)
>>98500133Feelings are objects too. :)
>>98500835The science of feeling is objective. What is magic is what you make of it.
>>98498698>the experiment isn't in the fuck around phaseyou had one job
>>98501189the objective science of feeling is a feeling about science as being objective.
>>98503008Experiments are on the cusp of finding out.
>>98501189>what you make of it Objects naturally.
