Can a Paladin just go like "Fuck it, I don't want to grapple with morality, I'm just going to spend my career fighting obviously Evil opponents so I have no internal conflict"It feels like it would make things a lot simpler. Like when something becomes complicated, just go "I'll get a magistrate or cleric to handle the deciding."
>>98346274Depends on how much of a dick the GM is and if they decide to try and pull a gotcha on how the obviously evil bad guy was secretly good all along or something> Like when something becomes complicated, just go "I'll get a magistrate or cleric to handle the deciding."Well now you’re just leaving a giant obvious hole for the GM to make them secretly evil and lead yiur Paladin into doing all kinds of evil shit without realizing it, dude.
Soft no. I doubt it's a de-veganising offence but you weren't put in that fancy armour to skip out on the hard parts. Paladins are supposed to be a good example, a role model.
>>98346274>It feels like it would make things a lot simpler.For sure, but not necessarily what you might want to do as a group.
>>98346287I dunno man, I would want the holy warrior in my group not to be troubled by doubt so he can keep killing bad guys
>>98346281>Well now you’re just leaving a giant obvious hole for the GM to make them secretly evil and lead your Paladin into doing all kinds of evil shit without realizing it, dude.Yeah but that's not his jobIt's the equivalent of "Okay, I'm handing you over to the police" or "Shit, this is bigger than me, I'm calling it in."It makes perfect sense that a guy would go "Well, I'm not qualified to handle this part, let the archbishop decide."
>>98346302Which is a lawful neutral mentality, not a lawful good. If it’s one of those games where all the paladin’s code tells him to do is just obey the edicts of the pope, it’d make sense. But most games give the Paladin not only the moral authority to actively but responsibly fight injustice wherever they do, it also gives them the obligation to, even if it’s from their own allies. So “this is above my pay grade” sadly doesn’t cut it.This is assuming you’re talking about the standard D&D type of Paladin, mind. If we’re talking about a different kind entirely, I’d be happy to reassess my stance on the matter.
>>98346274Repeated brain damage and paladins go hand in hand. No need to belabor the morality of your swath of inflicting righteous violence, after a few concussions and you have the same brain activity as a houseplant, the morality falls on your handlers/companions.
>>98346338I don't think there's anything innately immoral about (for example) handing bandits over to a magistrate to be judged, instead of being Judge Judy and executioner.
>>98346274To my recollection the "classic" Code of Conduct does actually lean toward the first line, with examples including downright Leeroy Jenkins behavior, but due to this coming from proactive requirements and it being driven by nearly-"raw" Alignment-stuff quandaries that do show up can't be put off nor is anything you can talk to a "higher power" with the ability to decide what does or does not fit.Though at the tail end of it in 3.5 the 1,000 gp price Phylactery of Faithfulness "should" cover it.
>>98346364It does mean that if the magistrate turns out to be killing innocent people and you willingly turn a blind eye to it through negligence, then that’s on you.
>>98346295Quite possible, but not anymore probable than the DM thinking he wants his faith tested.If I had a druid I would half-consciously put some environmentalist-like drama, but maybe the player just wanted the shapeshifiting powers.
>>98346302>Yeah but that's not his jobDetecting Evil, you mean?
>>98346400I thought the whole point of Detect Evil is that it's actually quite narrowly applicable. You need to be at least Level 5, a worshipper of an evil God, or undead / demonic to ping, right?
>>98346431It's still a tool in your kit which implies the duties of your chosen profession.
>>98346431Wasn’t in 3.5. It could detect anyone that pinged as evil, straight up. It was just easier to find the ones that had extra qualifiers like being a worshipper of an evil god and shit.
>>98346274Should paladin girls have big tits or is flat justice?
>>98346431Using it is also a declaration that you suspect Evil in the first place, which means that spamming it in polite company is likely the exact disrespect that gets a Code of Conduct clause.Giving the seediest in the city a sweep and treating the strongest ping as a lead, on the other hand? Sounds like a lovely way to beg the DM for trouble.
>>98346450Justice is stored in the breasts, flat paladins are all about upholding the letter of the law and not its spirit.
>>98346367The classic code of conduct essentially requires them to help when asked by the "right" people (namely lawful (or good when it's separated out) nobility and lawful/good clergy of any denomination). They are not required to seek out evil apropos of nothing, but they are not allowed to tolerate it when found. They're only barely tolerant of neutral entities, and cannot actively work with anyone or anything that's "chaotic" (or evil, when that's a separate category). They are not allowed to horde wealth or power, only being able to attract a small cohort of followers, keep a small amount of land, and must donate a significant amount of their looted treasure to charitable religious organizations (note: fellow PCs do not count as stewards of charitable religious organization and cannot be donated to).
>>98346274Yes. I make this easy for my players because orcs are very obviously evil in all my games. They are black so it helps as an immediate visual cue. What do I mean by black though? I guess there’s not enough detail for you to go on huh, so I’ll just let you use your imagination. It’s a game of imagination after all
>>98346274>"I'll get a magistrate or cleric to handle the deciding."Paladin throws away his conscience and his spiritual gift of discernment of good from evil, by effectively choosing a lawful neutral attitude via seeking to engage in blind obedience to the law
>>98346295> Not even willing to consider redemptionNGMI
>>98347717Sorry, I meant to say:> Already fallen.
>>98346452>Using it is also a declaration that you suspect Evil in the first place, which means that spamming it in polite company is likely the exact disrespect that gets a Code of Conduct clause.>"Constantly pinging Detect Evil? Are you trying to imply that I'm evil? Because I'll have you know that's incredibly offensive!">Paladin:"I don't care"If anything, pinging for Evil should the standard in a world where Evil is a thing that objectively exists and can be detected.
>>98346274It depends on your God. Some are in fact Lawful Stupid and follow the retarded childish logic of "if your kill your enemies they win". Just don't worship those ones. Of course if you're Godless and just following a creed then do whatever you want and if your dm tries to be a smug retard about it remind him that the GIs storming Normandy Beach weren't running into the bunkers to give those Nazis hugs or were aiming for kneecaps.
>>98347173Yes, he's talking about paladins and how to play them.
>>98346274>so sorry starving villiager but your problem exceeds a 6 on the tardsworth moral complexity scale, so im just going to ignore your suffering and pursue personal gloryif championing is optional, what are you even a champion of?IMO that's even worse than getting the wrong solution, you'd fall on the spot
>>98347717You going to budget out the restraints to keep the captive even for exotic creatures with abilities making a pain in the ass of it and all the extra supplies to keep them in good health? Or are you just going to be a toxic-empathy "The Most Good" obsessive?>>98347745>If anything, pinging for Evil should the standard in a world where Evil is a thing that objectively exists and can be detected.The actually-spammable source is tangled up in faux-medieval aristocratic concepts, and it hatchets through way too many plots, sorry.>>98347823>It depends on your God.No, it does not. At literally no point has the D&D-Paladin "at large" had a Code of Conduct ever been enforced by their patron deity. That is the Cleric's mechanic. Shut the fuck up about it, stop spreading the bullshit of regurgitated vibes.
>>98346274Be the sword of your god, it is not the fault of the blade who's blood is spilled.
>>98347867In what game?
>>98346792I valued this post
>>98348216Just make detect evil ping if a character has ever done an evil deed, so the righteous king who as a little kid stole paradise crab legs from a banquet serving and blamed it on the servants gets the same ping as the shapeshifted red dragon.
>>98346274Most Paladin players should not have these big moral dilemmas I swear people online act likeThe DM going>Haha! The BBEG was an innocent baby all along, he is using an elaborate trolley system to place fifty nuns on one track and five gazillion puppies on the other, you can’t shoot him because he’s a baby, if you guess wrong I take away all your class levels MWHAHAHAthe reality:>yes it would be very convenient to lure out the dragon with bait, however using innocent children as dragon bait is against your oathOr at worst>yes slaughtering the sleeping orcs would be convenient, however your chivalric duty demands you’re not allowed to strike down a non combatant
>>98348599> Most Paladin players should not have these big moral dilemmasMost don’t. Usually tales of crappy moral dilemmas comes down to either dms bitching about their players not giving a fuck about their oaths, players bitching about their bad GMs making crappy attempts at moral dilemmas, or one of the two lying about the other on social media sites.
>>98348280>Just make the ability nonfunctional.
>>98348280That's TOO sensitive, being expressly the domain of literal Saints. I'd probably use Heroes of Horror Taint for this role acting as a scale for a divisor of the creature's HD and add a floor, so that run-of-the-mill unrepented dickishness only starts pinging for the exact "Great Men" who'd be justified taking offense for the use of it. Also adds to the crapshoot of using it as a proxy for challenge rating.
>>98346274The thing is being a paladin is not a job, it's a calling. You have faith and faith guides you. You have principles and you feel strongly about them. No situation is supposed to be under you. But you have to remember that not all offenses should result in death, that's a trap retards fall in.
Detect evil genuinely just shouldn't exist. Either you need to nerf it into the ground, so why bother. Or it's so strong that it's impossible to justify shady characters getting away with anything for more than five minutes. There's no way to get a comfortable middle ground that won't annoy someone. So just get rid of it and give them some extra boon that rewards working out someone is evil from the player.
Why do you have to believe in morality to be a paladin?
>>98346383That's a completely separate scenario tho
>>98349016Because you cannot be a paladin without strongly believing in something. If you have strong believes inevitably for you there are things that are right and others that are wrong, which brings you to morality .
>>98349466You could strongly believe that might makes right, and chalk it up to Oath of Conquest. Simple as.
>>98347745You're essentially saying "you have nothing to fear from 24/7 surveillance if you haven't done anything wrong." It's still an invasion of privacy and the kind of tool that will invariably be applied unevenly across different groups in society (e.h. hyper focused on men, ignoring the aristocracy, etc.)>>98348229That's literally not what a paladin is. Paladins can have faith but their obligation is to their ideals. If you believe in nothing but blind obedience, play a cleric or an avenger. Paladins are all about making choices. >>98349016Because that's the definition of a paladin. It means you fight for something you believe in.
>>98348953It only tells you there's something Evil about or on somebody, nothing about WHY. They could be possessed, under the effect of a spell, tainted through no fault of their own, just so prolifically a dick in not-actually-criminal ways that it damns them, or so on. Then there's access-volume issues (which can be exacerbated by just raising the spell's level), and countermeasures exist, so even what little "could" be short-circuited with it is pretty fucked.>>98349016They are very literally powered by Law and Good.>>98349509>You're essentially saying "you have nothing to fear from 24/7 surveillance if you haven't done anything wrong." It's still an invasion of privacy and the kind of tool that will invariably be applied unevenly across different groups in society (e.h. hyper focused on men, ignoring the aristocracy, etc.)Setting aside the above-mentioned access-volume issues in the way of blanket surveillance, this is all a Chaotic sentiment. The "legitimate authorities" that Paladins are Code-bound to some manner of respect for are legally priviledged hereditary aristocrats bearing often-specific inherited obligations with land-bound peasants taxed to have farms to work on, personal freedoms need not apply.
>>98346274If you swear an oath to do good, NO MATTER WHAT, and then shirk a bunch of your duties because they’re too complicated, I don’t think you’re really all that dedicated.
>>98349466>>98349788>>98350094Morality doesn't at all follow from believing in something. I have no idea why you would think that.
>>98350321That is the case for dnd paladins though. They can outright lose their powers if they turn their back on their beliefs. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
>>98350374Belief is not a synonym for morality
>>98350486Belief seems to be a component of Paladin powers though.
>>98350497...right, which is not the same thing as morality.
>>98350500In regards to anything but dnd paladins, I fully agree. When it comes to dnd paladins thing, it does seem to be a confused fusion of beliefs and morals that often equates to the same thing when it comes to how they’re given their powers.
>my character won't have to make any tough moral decisions if my GM delivers a super simple, boring, childish plot with no important decision making, and I hide from anything difficult!Wow, that's genius! Alternatively why don't you just not play as a paladin if you don't want to act like one?
>>98350321>Morality doesn't at all follow from believing in something.It does in "default" D&D cosmology where there is a deontologically correct thing to believe in that is also a place you can go to to chat with your dead grandfather and a power source to beat the shit out of his murderers with.
>>98346274Ask your dungeon master.
>>98346287I'm not a group, I'm a paladin. The other players can similarly play however they want.
>>98347717Yes, obviously. Since you only kill evil monsters, you've never done anything wrong, and thus don't require redemption.
>>98348211You champion killing monsters, obviously. Did you not read the post?
>>98348211Too bad, fuck your plots. It's a game, not a book.
>>98346274It's called Warrior
>>98350843You champion the killing of monsters you mean? Championing is a cause, not a profession. Every class kills monsters as a matter of course, without comittment to your oath you are definitionally not a paladin. And an oath is a set of ironclad perscriptive morals you have to follow, where ignoring edge cases is oathbreaking. Id reccomend reading the game books some time>>98350917See above
>>98346274Paladins are not supposed to be just sword swinging thugs with holy powers. They are the embodiment of an ideal, the romantic idea of the holy knight. Just like the pursuit of doing good in general, it is not meant to be an easy path for the lazy.
>>98352042killing monsters is a cause.
this thread made me realise how much has wotc fucked up the paladin thematically in 5e compared to my 3.5 days and why removing alignment really was a mistake.
>>98346274Currently reading AD&D 2e (Revised from 95), and I swear there's a bit that says paladins never rule over others, because that'd require compromising on their ideals. Can't find it though. So by that logic, yes.Also, as far as I understand, the same book doesn't really paint paladins as these walking moral dilemmas. Do good, real good, ɓALL the time, and always do it by the good law that exists. Does the law suck? Well, then it isn't really the platonic ideal of good law you're fighting for, ignore or replace it. Law is an universal constant, and good law always serves, well, good.
>>98352936 (me)nvm found it, forgot to look into the DM'S guide
>>98350321Not necessarily religious beliefs. More like if you say I believe all humans have equal rights than you should strongly oppose slavery. Paladins have a code, something bigger than them that they believe in, which makes them different than a simple warriors.
>>98352488so when the baby orcs come up are you going to follow your oath or avoid the moral quandary of killing a neutrally aligned creature?
>>98346274Read the class description before posting.
>>98346274Yeah I don't see anything wrong with this. You are called on to fight against evil and help people, and focusing on stuff you're good at doing while avoiding things you're bad at doing seems reasonable. If you aren't confident in your judgement, then you gravitate toward situations where judging is much simpler.
>>98346274As long as a Paladin is true to their respective oaths and ideals then yes.
>>98346274As a boy I looked for ways to make paladins fall.As a man I extended the falling rules to clerics and take away their spells for even the tiniest infraction against their god's teachings.
>>98353649ew
>>98346274d&d literally had that idea already decades ago which is why paladins got detect evil so they can just go on autopilot and smite anything that pings their radar
>>98346274Theoretically, yes. You might not get the same favor as someone who actually grapples with morality too, but someone has to deal with John Fleshweaver turning his neighbors into living furniture.
>>98346450Clerics are flat, Paladins are stacked
