Post /tg/-related TRVTH NVKES. I'll start:>D&D, while undoubtedly flawed, is a perfectly serviceable game. It's only hated as much as it is on /tg/ because of its popularity. Most legitimate complaints are about the playerbase rather than the game itself. If any other RPG dominated the market the way D&D does, it would receive just as much hate here.
Warhammer stays on top not just from paypiggies and marketing but because the communities of alternative options have unbearable hipster complexes that make curious wargamers not want to deal with them.The GW stays on top.This applies for how dnd stays on top too.
>>98353854>Truth nukes>Immediately posts retarded DnDrone copiumHere's a truth nuke for you.OP is a faggot.
>>98353854>If any other RPG dominated the market the way D&D does, it would receive just as much hate here.Explain FATAL.It gets way more hate than D&D 5e, and it's one of the most obscure systems, and the people who do know of it only embrace it as a meme.Not that I think the broken mess is deserving of anything more than its status as a meme, but it stands that people could be a little more consistent with their standards and look at things beyond "well I like it".
>>98353887Yeah, based.
Having said >>98353952, could OP or any pro-D&D fag explain how 5e is "perfectly serviceable" as written, without citing rule 0, house rules, or other errata?If you can't, you demonstrate you can only look at what you like through a rose-tinted lens, without the awareness that different people will have to alter different amounts of a given system yo get what they want, disqualifying your stance for anything other than subjective drivel.
>>98353952To clarify, there's no realistic scenario in which FATAL (or MYFAROG or whatever) dominates the RPG market, assuming the rules are the same as they are in real life. But if TSR's collapse has dragged D&D down with it, and something like Vampire: the Masquerade had become the most popular game, there would be a gazillion "have you tried not playing VtM?" posts on /tg/. The same goes for Call of Cthulhu, Savage Worlds, FATE, the Warhammer RPGs, etc.>>98353974It's fine (not amazing, but fine) if you run it as a high-powered dungeon-crawler with lots of combat. Most (not all) of the issues creep in when people use it for other purposes.
>>98353974Speaking as someone who has played quite a bit of 5e but doesn't like it, it's "perfectly serviceable" in the sense that most people who play games just want a resolution mechanic and some combat/character customization mechanics and don't really care about or understand deeper game design principles than that. D&D is the thing that they've heard of, and it has those things, so it's good enough for most people.
>>98353887/thread
>"TRUTHNUKE:">*the most mild, normiefag opinion you've heard in your entire life*this is somehow even worse than hot-take culture
>>98353887spbp
>>98353854Calling your retarded and incorrect cope a "TRVTH NVKE" doesn't make it true. DnD is shit for normies and retards and there is no reason for anyone with any mental capacity or self-respect to be playing it in 2020+6. Especially when the company that owns it is almost as shitty as Games Workshop.
>>98353989>there's no realistic scenario in which FATAL (or MYFAROG or whatever) dominates the RPG marketYes, which makes the previous assertion I specifically greentexted "if any other RPG dominated the market the way D&D does, it would receive just as much hate here" strange, given that it receives MORE hate in spite of being the most non-dominant (recessive? submissive?) TTRPG title in the zeitgeist.You've effectively told me what I already know without answering my question.>It's fineunless you use it for other purposes.Quite a few words for a point that doesn't answer the question.Does "it's fine but not amazing" equate to "perfectly serviceable" to any degree?
>>98353996>it's "perfectly serviceable" in the sense that it serves as the bare minimum for lazy faggotsSo it isn't perfectly serviceable.
>>98353854>Coomers are a fucking blight on this board and if it had any decent moderation smutposting would result in a rangeban.
>>98354149>Does "it's fine but not amazing" equate to "perfectly serviceable" to any degree?Yes
>>98353873Battletech?
>>98354164Cheesecake threads predate you, newfag
>>98353989If everyone was playing VtM and having the same problems, particularly with trying to play in ways VtM isn't well suited for, then people would dismissively tell them not to play VtM. Obviously. How could it possibly be otherwise?"Serviceable" is a low bar to clear in a tabletop game. Even more so for RPGs which are overwhelmingly dependent on the GM. Even a book lacking an index, riddled with spelling errors, overwrought rule explanations, and poorly organised can end up as serviceable.
>>98353854Let's be honest: You mean 5e and 5e is a poorly designed pile of shit. /tg/ hates it because /tg/ is extremely familiar with it. Not because some stinky undesirables play it. Not because it is successful. Not because they are truly concerned with what people are doing in their own games. When judged on its own, out of the box, D&D is a bad game wearing the skin of one of the only games to maintain relevance for 50 years, and if not for the branding and the e-celebs promoting it, most people would not give a fuck about it.
>>983544263.5 is still the best edition ngl
Both wargames and ttrpgs are getting absolutely mogged in terms of game design and production value for decades now. Most wargames are just clunky dice chukers with a poor excuse of a ruleset. TTRPGs barely ever venture beyond roll X on 1 or 2 dice and a few random tables. If they ever make a new dice system with custom dice they completely fuck up production and availability (looking at you Starwars and genesys)The big TCGs are basically an IQ test to see who is actually retarded enough to buy them.
>>98353854dumb frogposter
>>98353854Generative AI will almost certainly obsolete the vast majority of low common denominators behind TTRPG usership within the next decade, leading to either a Dark Age making the 90s slump look like a mild inconvenience as the medium is disintegrated by individualized slop or a rather confounding "gilded age" of VTTs and (pseudo-)cRPGs blurring replacing the conventional operator/referee/"last-mile" designer role with machine learning systems. Though a LOT of the functions ain't going to be inference-based LLMs. Indeed, I expect much of this to come from a breakthrough eating Claude's lunch by getting code generation working better at-scale with a different paradigm.>>98353887Pretty sure if you'd list out issues people have, there genuinely are more that stem from people not using it "properly" than baked into the design. To some extent lack of pressure toward intended play is itself a design flaw, but it boils down to fewer elements of the system being wrong than ways people insist on using it wrong because there's multiple manners of misuse stemming from any given flaw of the system in guiding against that.>>98353974As mentioned above, being bad at pressuring toward what it works for is a whole class of design flaws in itself, but if you follow along with what little there is it's passable for a combat-oriented dungeon-crawler. Much, MUCH worse at that than 3.X approached with similar good faith, let alone getting out a well-tuned selection of modern OSR products, but very much "serviceable" so unless "perfectly" makes it a very strict criteria it's a true statement.>>98354426Oh no, literally every edition of D&D has had glaring holes in its design process. 4e is probably the best in "proper" game-design terms, but did that from the wrong premises for answering online complaints so once the Current Edition train departed its playerbase immediately evaporated.
>>98354220Battletech is suppressed by the game being bad, it's hilariously fucked supply chain, and aggressive and annoying wokeism randomly injected into it by its staff.
>>98354720Combined arms is the only way to play
>>98354507I forgot to mention that it is board games doing the mogging.
>>98353854>5E Tieflings are cool and have interesting lore>There's nothing wrong with wanting to play a different gender>Thought out backstories make the game better>Hasbro being "woke" takes nothing away from your games>I'm enjoying DnD 5E, and I won't change systems until I'm bored if it
>>98354789Everything you said is true. I got bored of 5e after a decade of playing it. Now I'm playing 3.5 and BX, but I still love D&D.
>>98354720They're not as "woke" as most people say. The management is mostly old-school Mormons who only force themselves to be more tolerant than they naturally are because they know their product appeals to autistic males, more and more of whom are identifying as trans and such. The whole thing with them firing Pardoe had less to do with his outspoken right wing views and more with the fact that he was a belligerent asshole who was constantly picking fights with people, including the editing staff.
>>98354196Thank you for admitting you don't know what "perfectly" means, that tells me everything I need to know; mainly, that I don't need to waste any more time in you.
>>98354698>unless "perfectly" makes it a very strict criteriaYes.By definition, "perfectly" is strict criteria.
>>98354880Wasn’t the cancel fiasco an unhinged autist who threatened violence against that battletech guy?Or am I misremembering someone else who had to leave battletech?I know that social media has given a lot of unhinged too much influence and power which scares PR teams and it isn’t helped that people don’t care for context these days.I think I’m part of the problem too when it comes to context.
>>98354720Cry about it, chud.
>>98354238Cope, chuddie.
>>98354698I dont see gen-ai as having much hope unless someone finds a non-brute force way of deriving a neural net. The power and infrastructure demands of modern models compared to a brain is just embarassing, even just a digitized human mind with no improvements would smoke the entire LLM industry and would probably run on a chip that could fit in a laptop, but the point is - huge efficiency gains ought to be possible, but the current direction of development will only ever get larger and less efficient. I also think the entire market is a scam that's doomed to failure and would refuse any ai product on principle so i may be biased, but most people seem to feel the same way as me so im not convinced the market exists either
For all the justified literal shit posting it gets, Shadow of the Demon Lord is the best RPG to get forever D&D players to switch systems because it has just enough similarities to D&D that players and GMs alike don't feel like they are learning a new system despite it being different in so many core ways that it is unquestionably better and makes everyone who plays it far more likely to try other systems afterward.
>>98356393>I dont see gen-ai as having much hope unless someone finds a non-brute force way of deriving a neural net. ... huge efficiency gains ought to be possible, but the current direction of development will only ever get larger and less efficient.This would be reason for these lines:>Though a LOT of the functions ain't going to be inference-based LLMs. Indeed, I expect much of this to come from a breakthrough eating Claude's lunch by getting code generation working better at-scale with a different paradigm.An example of one of the "fringes" that may become part of the paradigm-shifting answer would be Yann LeCun's JEPA.>even just a digitized human mind with no improvements would smoke the entire LLM industry and would probably run on a chip that could fit in a laptopAh, no, we have solid estimates of the number of parameters a "raw" mental model would take and those are rather absurd.
>>98353854The only real way to play games are open-world/sandbox style games, where the PCs are presented with a world (which itself has a myriad of things to do) and are allowed free rein to do as they will within it. The theaterfags who've taken over the hobby and pushed the "collaborative storytelling" meme are a cancerous blight upon us all and actively ruin any game they come within 20km of. Worse still are the GMs who enable and facilitate this behaviour by forcing players to participate in their "muh story" and tard wrangling them to do strictly and exclusively what the GM wants them to do, instead of what they/their characters want to do.
>>98353854>Separating game mechanics from narrative is antithetical to what TTRPGs are, and always has been.>>98353952/tg/ loves FATAL purely because they're contrarian faggots. The actual game itself, disgusting content aside, isn't even a fully playable system. It's possible to literally create an unplayable character RAW without even trying, because there's so much RNG involved in chargen you are very likely to just get a bunch of shit that won't work together RAW, and there's no rules on dealing with that and the only solution is to make a brand new character.
>>98353854Literally any game is serviceable because rule 0 exists. Trvke: some of the decline of this board has been due to hostile actors. However, much of it is due to lackluster products and no one like to admit that because we hate to see ourselves as consoomers
>>98353974>or other errataThose are RAW. They're updates to the rules, officially, by the developers. Which is no different than how 3.X shat out reprints of classes every 5 minutes so you can buy it again like Todd was on the design team.That said, it works fine. Is it perfect? No. No system is perfect. Can you play it RAW without issue? Yes. Its mechanics are sound, the 2014 DMG is actually extremely in depth on creating new spells and contains a ton of optional equipment to expand the game's content if the GM chooses to use it (which is not rule 0 or house rules, these are officially printed variant rules), speaking of which, there are plenty of variant rules like Flanking (which works but turns the game into a TF2 Lobby with how many conga lines you're going to see) or Spell Points (my preferred method of spellcasting in 5e/2024). 2024 is even RAW fully backwards compatible with 2014 subclasses, as the new Subclass class feature denotes you get subclass features at the levels the table lists you get subclass features. For example, 2024 Clerics get all their 1-2 features for subclasses at 3 instead.Now, you're going to whine and go "BUT IT CANT DO EVERYTHING AND PEOPLE USE IT FOR EVERYTHING". When people say D&D is serviceable, they don't mean as a catch-all for anything. They mean as a generic fantasy game. Which it does fine. There's better, there's worse, but D&D is like potato chips, you don't want to eat all potato chips but sometimes you want a bag of BBQ lays, and those are also generally well-liked for a potato chip, so everyone will probably not complain if you bring those out as a snack.Bla Bla food metaphor I know you faggots will look for any reason to be contrarian subhumans, the point is D&D is not the evil thing you think it is but it's not THE BEST THING EVAR it's just fine. No, it not existing would not mean your super-obscure scrimblo system would be the top-seller, in fact it would probably be like VtM or some shit.
>>98353996"Deeper game design principles" reeks of contrarian buzzword, so explain what you mean by this or I'm just going to assume you're a subhuman contrarian faggot.
>>98355365NTAhe is using the definition of perfectly as in to a complete and adequate extent.Perfectly means in this case "exactly" not "without flaw."so he is saying>5e is quite usablenot>5e's usability is without flawIf I am perfectly fine things aren't perfect.
>>98356652>No system is perfectOkay, then it isn't "perfectly serviceable".
>>98355447No, no, that was somebody else and it happened years before. You're thinking of "Davionman". He was a crazed fan who threatened one of the developers with a shotgun because they were planning to get rid of his favorite faction to focus on other stuff.
>>98356616>picwhat's this from?
>>983544583.5 was pure shit.
>>98356658I didn't mean deeper in a philosophical sense, I mean game design that exists beyond a very simple randomized resolution mechanic, which is what d&d is. It's a bunch of ways to do damage, heal damage, and mitigate damage, and anything that isn't that is boiled down to a binary "roll a die and if high, thing you wanted happen, if low, thing you want didn't happen." There really any rules outside of that.
>>98357094Arches of Apsyildon, it's an itch.io project from an obscure YouTube channel. Most of his videos are about why games should be run like how I just described - open for the players to do as they please, not subject to any direction or railroading from a GM.
>>98357170It had the best adventures ever written (Age of Worms and Savage Tide)
>>98353854> "only"LOLWait, you're serious?LMAO
>>98356786Fuck off and learn English.
>D&D, while serviceable, has multiple flaws specific to it that are frequently complained about to the point of ad nauseam, such as caster supremacy, hit point bloat, worthless non-combat rules and a broken economic system. They are complained about so frequently by people new to the hobby without any knowledge of other TTRPGs that more often than not, the only reasonable response is "have you tried not playing D&D?"
>>98357211>a bunch of ways to do damage5e and 2024 have this, RAW. Martials can use maneuvers, rage, focus points/ki, Sneak Attack dice, and that's just features, you're looking at stuff like acid vials, alchemist's fire, hell there's an entire origin feat dedicated to improvised weapons so you can hypothetically use ANYTHing as a weapon. The DMG and PHB have rules for creatures burning, rules for damaging the surroundings, items have AC and hit points and can be damaged, rules for falling mean those items can fall down and do numerical damage.And that's without talking about casters.>Heal damagePlenty of ways to do this. Class features, species features, feats that use items, feats that don't use items, magic, Short rests, long rests, magic items like potions or other wonderous items, just because there aren't 30 tiers of medical items that heals increments of HP (which is shitty game design, pure bloat) or cure lesser wounds, cure greater wounds, aka 50 flavors of the same fucking spell doesn't mean there aren't a bunch of ways to do things.>Mitigate damageFighting styles, feats, Species features, class features, subclass features, resistance, immunity, not getting hit, being able to dodge all damage on a successful save, succeeding on saves, again no DR stat doesn't mean it doesn't exist.>anything that isn't that is boiled down to a binary "roll a die and if high, thing you wanted happen, if low, thing you want didn't happen."Wahhh my game doesn't have degrees of success how will I ever fuck my players over even though they technically succeeded like blades in the dark does?>There really any rules outside of that.Objectively untrue, and shows you're a nogames faggot or illiterate, take your pick. There's an alarming amount of rules across all of the 2014 books and the 2024 books (which are all compatible with one another), to say nothing about 3.X which has too many redundant rules and options.
>>98356786You don't seem to understand the meaning of the words. Which is fine, if it's your second language parsing English can be hard.The phrase "Perfectly serviceable" means that it does the job of being serviceable perfectly, which it does. By your backwards-ass third world logic, all systems are bad because they aren't perfect, which is the dumbest possible stance to have.
>>98353854Bell curves make characters feel incompetent
>>98353854OP this isn't a truth nuke, this is utterly milquetoast. A nuke should at least be worded violently, this intro statement is so couched it's reclining.
>>98356518A raw mental model on today's dogshit hardware. My wetware pile of fat and water consumes a whopping 20 watts, my entire cognition runs on less than most lightbulbs. Make the exact same structure from switches and wire and it runs 100,000 times faster. Thats not just fast enough to dodge a bullet, its so fast that you would be effectively blinded by how few photons are hitting your eye per "thought second". Its fast enough that at the same wattage you would flash-boil your brain. I remind you, thats not speculative tech or relying on miniaturization or any other hypothetical bullshit. Its JUST going from >100m/s neuron speeds to 0.1c electricity in wire speeds. Assuming you can cool and power it this one wire brain that fits in a backpack and can do the work of 100,000 PHD level scientists or top writers or administrators each day, and assuming zero efficiency advancements the whole thing would need less than 2t of coal per day as "food". Modern LLMs need complexes the size of cities and drink rivers and they struggle to manage a correctly formatted haiku or seahorse emoji
>>98357371People do in fact use "perfectly" for a merely acceptable standard in the vernacular form of English. To quote Merriam-Webster, "to a complete or adequate extent", approximately synonymous with "quite".>>98357939>I remind you, thats not speculative tech or relying on miniaturization or any other hypothetical bullshit.Wrong, because the required parameter-count makes the giant datacenter models look puny. There's somewhere in the vicinity of a hundred and fifty TRILLION synapses in the cortex alone, with the present leading edge having barely over 1% of that in parameters. Which each synapse requires quite a few of to meaningfully model the behavior of. And due to the way it works most of the run-time optimizations fundamentally cannot apply.The very best efficiencies in simulating neurology need a server-stack for a fly brain, and can only do so for precisely identified activation-patterns. The technology does not yet exist to have a "raw" human brainscan mental model run at any appreciable speed, even if all the parts required to do so at all have technically been invented.
>>98358381Again, only in dogshit modern implementations, because you're using binary to perform analogue computation. Analogue transistors exist that can perform those functions by adding and subtracting voltages, and they're commercially available on custom circuitboards right now. Every component nessesary to build it efficiently exists, slopfarms are just ridiculously inefficient (which doesnt matter to the corpos because they're starting the IPO rugpull as we speak, but i digress)Also you're wrong about the fly, you can run a fruit fly's brain on a laptop
>>98358410>Again, only in dogshit modern implementations, because you're using binary to perform analogue computation. Analogue transistors exist that can perform those functions by adding and subtracting voltages, and they're commercially available on custom circuitboards right now.And the size and energy demand of those transistors compared to neurons?>Also you're wrong about the fly, you can run a fruit fly's brain on a laptopGiven the number of orders of magnitude of complexity, the point still stands.
>>98354738Combined arms is not a part of the game, according to the new "core rules".
>>98354164Man I didnt know Mastercard could get their payment processor cock any further up someone's ass but here you are, their dancing monkey
>>98358416>And the size and energy demand of those transistors compared to neurons?Well there doesnt seem to be any inherent restriction compared to conventional binary signals since... its just voltages and regular transistors, butLets say i dont just say 3nm. Lets say it's 10x worse, and make it 40nm. Thats the same size as a synapse. Maybe you think we cant make circuits more efficient than gap junctions though, and thats fine, lets make it 10x worse again for 400nm. My guess is that still fits just fine because we dont need any supporting cells and the synapses are spread over a huge area, but lets say its a dealbreaker and human synapses are AS dense as materially possible (even though they arent because birds have 30% denser brains)WellJust make the brain 10x bigger to fit the giant transistors. Now the brain doesnt fit in a backpack and only runs ten thousand times faster because its larger - but that also means it costs 10x less energy, so make 10 of them. The entire data center now fits in a bedroom and guess what? It cools 10x more easily now from the larger surface area!
>>98353854I wish. The hate for D&D 5E is well-deserved, not for its popularity or playerbase, but because the game mechanics don't do what they're advertised to do.>AC doesn't work against attacks it should work against, and stops attacks it shouldn't>DR has nothing to do with armour, when it should>saving throws, ability checks, and AC have large narrative overlap, but are mechanically different for no discernible reason>too many classes that still fail to adequately fulfill the most basic fantasy archetypes: fighters can't fight, skill monkeys have no rules for skill use, magic users all fall into one magic system that has no equivalent in fantasy fiction (it's not even Vancian Magic, but something else that makes no sense)>a level 0 commoner equivalent in almost any other game system is more powerful, interesting, and realistic to play than an epic-level fighter in D&D>everything a normal person should be able to do is locked behind a class/spell/feat and a limited resource with no narrative justification>"adventuring day", "class resources", "action economy" don't make any narrative or game mechanical sense>PCs and NPCs use entirely different game mechanics for virtually every facet of the game, with no narrative justification>the DM's Guide gives you actual bad advice that encourages bad GM and player habits and makes the game feel worse to play; it doesn't go into enough detail to explain how character options like classes and spells are designed, and it discourages player creativity/improvisation even when it should make narrative senseBut we've had this conversation a hundred thousand times before. And we will continue to have it a hundred million times again.
>>98358515Anon, everything you put down is opinions and hyperbole.It screams 'my favorite game is GURPS', and not because GURPS is a great system.
