Why do people enjoy powerwank campaigns? Genuinely what is the point? I have pretty much burnt out on running my favorite campaign of all time, because they gained access to capabilities that basically ruin the game, and it is devolving into "the enemy uses abilities that counter your abilities, and everyone else is completely irrelevant because you have cheatcodes that invalidate their existence entirely." And the players all sit around and cackle gleefully at some combination of abilities they've found to "totally pwn" the enemy. Most of the time these enemies can't even fight back at all, reasonably speaking, unless I, the GM, decide that they suddenly all have supernatural powers of the same caliber. Which just sucks the fun out of all of it.So can someone explain to me... what is the fun of this? What is the fun of every fight being a cakewalk because you've buffed your stats to such a point that even the upper-level of the system's enemies aren't a challenge to you? What is the fun of getting to the point where you don't even have to fight the enemies at all, because you broke the game and can just conjure an entire army to attack them endlessly until they're all dead? Is this actually fun? Because they seem to enjoy it, but frankly it's the most uninteresting thing to me. There's no tension. There's no twinge of worry for your character's safety. Is this actually engaging? Please explain.>durrrr have you tried not playing D&D?The system isn't D&D, or any of its derivatives. not even a d20 game.
You're GMing for video game players and you are the engine. Talk to them about it, if it can't be resolved don't play with them or people like them.
>>98367154You mind giving a proper example, OP? Cause I’m rather confused by what you mean.
>>98367161I can try, but really, it's too late. They already started using these abilities and doing "le epic meme strats" and it would involve a lot of retconning to explain why that shit is no longer possible. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate optimization, even if it's a bit cheesy, especially if it's a D&D game where a lot of it is the game. But this isn't D&D. I had a really nice campaign going with great archetypal characters who meshed well but weren't boring or generic, a really compelling story, and a setting the players actually cared to learn about because of how much they interacted with it.And I made the mistake of (1) letting new players join who wanted to play as freakshit, (2) stretching the lore to allow them to play as freakshit, and (3) switching to a different version of the game that was full of broken-ass abilities, because the developers clearly decided that their game should have D&D-tier magic power level in it, without any of the counterplay to that, or even clear enough rules to prevent abuse.So now I'm stuck playing wizard-chess like every high-level 3.PF or 5e campaign I've run. And it seems like that's what these people want.I mean, if the campaign was really difficult and they were struggling to make any progress toward their goals, defeat any of their enemies, and were constantly getting ass kicked in every fight, I would understand. But they were winning these fights. Now they have to go one step further and cheese them. It just cheapens everything and I really don't understand how people enjoy it. What is the fun? They know it's not a vidya. And I likely will stop playing with them after this campaign. It just sucks because this campaign is the main reason I'm clinging to this group. My other campaigns with them, I have almost zero emotional attachment to.I will admit a lot of this is my fault for putting trust in them to make the decision on switching editions.
>>98367154>>98367181>It's not D&D. I swear. But it isn't D&D.So what the fuck is it, OP?
>>98367171Like creating simulacrums of yourself so you have an entire party of max-level wizards under your control, in D&D terms, and saying "yeah I have them to a bunch of broken shit to our enemies" and the rest of the party can't participate in this. It's not just one player doing it either. And yes, the NPCs can find ways to counter it, but it's hard to do in a way that doesn't seem like obvious attempt to nerf what he's doing. You can't just say "lol 15 level 30 wizards teleport to you and fuck you up" because it doesn't make sense that they can do that. It also fucking sucks, because scry-and-fry meta is one of the shittiest parts of D&D, and now it's becoming the NPCs' only real viable counterplay. So it's basically ruining the story by turning it into Marvel Dirtfuck Avengers Slop 3.0.>>98367204>So what the fuck is it, OP?It's Savage Worlds Adventure Edition
>>98367154>>98367181The fun of combat is in solving the puzzle of an encounter. The problem you have is that one solution is solving all of your puzzles and you refuse to make the puzzles differently, for some reason.If your players are spamming the same thing over and over, you just need to disrupt their plans and force them to come up with something on the fly. This should be easy, given that you know their capabilities and they don't know yours. For starters, give every fight a condition. It shouldn't just be X enemies fighting your party in a featureless void or dungeon room. Maybe it's an ambush, and archers are shooting from elevation to the sides. Maybe there are reinforcements arriving. Maybe there's an environmental hazard. Maybe the party is split by a barrier. Maybe the party is just really low on resources. It doesn't really matter, as long as it forces your players to act differently to beat the encounter. Furthermore, any serious enemy in a given high level fight should have at least one but preferably many trump cards that alter the conditions of the engagement. Boss phases are an obvious example of this, but it could be anything really.
>>98367256>The problem you have is that one solution is solving all of your puzzles and you refuse to make the puzzles differently, for some reason.Because the game isn't a railroad and as soon as they encounter something they don't like, they can just teleport away and figure out a solution.>Maybe it's an ambush, and archers are shooting from elevation to the sides. They've had many encounters like this. They usually roll spectacularly high to notice such an ambush so it doesn't even matter. Elevation? Cool they can get a slight bonus to still not hit them.>Maybe there are reinforcements arriving.More people for them to slaughter pointlessly. If anything, they need the entire enemy force there at once or else they can just stand there and effortlessly cut down reinforcements as they arrive. They wipe the floor with 50 men without a sweat.>environmental hazardThey just won't go there, or will conjure up resistance to it in a single round.>split by a barrierThey will fly over it or teleport over it.>maybe the party is just really low on resourcesThey will teleport or fly away until their resources result, which always happens within around 5 hours.> Boss phases are an obvious example of this, but it could be anything really.This game doesn't have boss phases or anything like it. I guess I could just start making up bullshit but I have gained respect from my players for sticking to the rules and not fudging or making up shit arbitrarily.
>>98367154People like being powerful, what's important is to put threats against them that are still threats while making them feel powerful. If you play a supers game give the players some minions to beat up to remind them how powerful they are. Superman might not feel OP when he's fighting Darksied, but then you have him deal with someone who sends in a kill team of elite commandos with kryptonite bullets and while there is a still a threat it reminds you of how powerful Superman really is as he wipes the floor against a platoon of Navy Seals trying to land a shot on him with a single kryptonite bullet.
>>98367390Oh, so you have autism. It’s not solvable, you should quit the campaign.
>>98367503What? So because they have capabilities to trivialize all that stuff, and because the only alternative is to add vidya-tier shit that isn't allowed in the system, I have autism?>>98367467I'm starting to do that now. But it's sinking in that the only opponents that are even viable against them at this point are high level spellcasters. They've pretty much immunized themselves against everyone else. Gonna try a sheer fuckload of enemies next session and see how that goes, fortunately with this game it actually makes sense for that to show up
>>98367556The math for SWADE is incredibly transparent, it is very easy to homebrew things.>bUt ThAt IsNt In ThE rUlEsYeah, you might actually be too autistic to run games. Also, unless you're starting them out at a higher level, there isn't any way to start out with super bullshit like that. There's also zero reason you can't build enemies that use the exact same cheese they can. Also also, between the 4 companions, there are so many variant rules to tune your game to a specific style, you should be able to figure something out, if you're not a room temperature IQ simpleton big fucking if
>>98367154That was a fun thread.
>>98367154Skill issue
>>98367556No, you have autism because you're incapable of seeing the multiple extremely easy solutions in front of you and then view a weakness with a pride.
>>98367765I pointed out how the players would counteract those solutions. No offense, not to be an asshole, but you trotted out basic-ass Matt Coville DM advice video stuff on how to make encounters more interesting, either not realizing or ignoring that high-level D&D-esque magic just bypasses a lot of that shit effortlessly. Terrain is meaningless with flight and teleportation. Ambushes? Maybe but doesn't matter much when they all have high Perception checks.>>98367617>Also, unless you're starting them out at a higher level, there isn't any way to start out with super bullshit like that. They didn't start out with it. They got to higher levels and became completely ridiculous. For a system meant to be more "grounded" than D&D, they fucked it up by putting D&D-tier magic shenanigans into the new version.>There's also zero reason you can't build enemies that use the exact same cheese they can.Yes I can. And that's the ONLY way to counter them. That's my complaint. The game turns into wizard v.s. wizard and looks absolutely ridiculous and makes the story into a joke.You think D&D 3.5 high level magic bullshit makes for a good story? Because it really doesn't. Try writing a novel based on that. No one will want it, because that kind of high magic slop reads like shit. Even Harry fuckin Potter is more grounded than this garbage.
>>98367390That's a lot of problems that could've been solved by a simple>no you can't teleportYou're definitely autistic and you allowed yourself to be bullied by powerhungry MMO munchkins
>>98367154I dunno, bro. I don't get the appeal either. I want to be challenged. I want character death to be a genuine threat and I want at least some of the encounters to need some actual tactical thought to overcome. A bit of powerwank now and then is fun too but only if you feel like you've earned it.
>>98367390>Because the game isn't a railroad and as soon as they encounter something they don't like, they can just teleport away and figure out a solution.Do you not put your players under some sort of time pressure? My group can very rarely teleport away because then the raiders will pillage the town or the cultists will disappear into the catacombs or whatever.
>>98367154How come you're not letting the world react to their power?
>>98367154In mmorpgs, after reaching max level, most players occasionally enjoy going back to the starting areas and oneshotting everything in sight. Some do it to help new players clear their quests faster, some do it to hinder them by killing everything they need; it doesn't matter, it's the same principle. People enjoy leveraging their power to feel omnipotent, especially if they worked hard for it
>>98367154Swade is not the system to run if you don't want players doing amazing rat tricks.
>>98367238>SWADEWhat type of game are you running (fantasy, super power, horror, sci-fi) or are you pulling from an established setting (Deadlands, Ghost Mountain, etc)?You might have stuff tailored to the wrong power scaling. When the PCs get to a certain point they should be on the radar of bigger threats. A lot of games have a problem with high level PCs being a bitch to threaten. If the players have stepped outside of the typical power levels for the game you wanted? You got tools to knock them on their ass.
>>98367390Yeah >>98368266 here.Disregard my last post. You are making GM mistakes.>The players don't go to places or wait to regain resources for a fight Then the threat accomplished their goal and bad shit happened. It isn't "Everything died including you guys" but it should be something bad enough that they regret their actions. The group decides to just not go to the place where a dark ritual is taking place? Congratulations, an outer god (or the equivalent) got summoned that just straight starts global conquering and the world knows that the PCs didn't want to get their shoes dirty to stop it making the world have a shitty opinion of them so everything is substantially worse and another timer is started because that big seemingly unstoppable threat is not static. Every day they waste, another area falls.
Just have fun with it. Tell them that the campaign has run its course and if they want to continue playing their characters they get trapped inside a Tomb of Horrors style death funnel by a powerful wizard to keep the game interesting. The wizard is way more powerful than they are so none of the game breaking powers work here. Supernatural darkness, unbreakable walls, teleportation doesn't work, wandering monsters to prevent them from searching every room and hallway, one-shot traps that instantly kill them etc. Keep the first levels reasonable so they have some time to enjoy the powerwank. If they survive they truly deserve it and you can tell them that they beat the game if not you can roll new characters.
>>98368148>How come you're not letting the world react to their power?It is, but this shit takes time. And the one character who is changing the world in a genuinely narratively satisfying way, is being overshadowed by the characters who unlocked magical cheat codes and use them to do dumb bullshit. As soon as the campaign turns into a power race between players and GM, it goes to shit, because the storyline is compromised in the effort to challenge the players. That's why these spells are stupid shit and should honestly not have been added to the game. And, I fully admit, I should not have been dumb enough to okay the change in rulesets. >>98368186There's a difference between feeling powerful and trivializing the game. Feeling powerful was when slaying 2 dozen men went from a battle they nearly lost and took time to recover from, to just another Tuesday. Or PCs being able to split up and defeat enemy detachments on their own. Not being able to gank the most powerful creatures the game has to offer, or even can offer within the limits of its rules, within a single round. >>98368239I know that now. I should have stuck to SWEE, which didn't have this level of bullshit.
>>98368290>The group decides to just not go to the place where a dark ritual is taking place?Except they can go there and fuck those guys up. They are easily able to kill 50+ men, or just fly past them, or teleport past them. >muh elder godsThe elder gods in swade have stats and they could probably kill most of them in a couple rounds of combat.
A sincere conversation is the only way to deal with it, OP
>>98367901>You think D&D 3.5 high level magic bullshit makes for a good story? Because it really doesn't. Try writing a novel based on that.It's not a novel or story. It's a fucking game. You're legitimately an idiot.
>>98367901So your problem is>The players, over the course of the campaign, have become incredibly powerful, but instead of sending more powerful enemies after them, I just want to keep sending low level shit at them. Why doesn't this work?!You should probably quit.
>>98369279>It isThen you shouldn't have this problem. I once had a player who figured out a way to create a spell that gave them gargantuan bonuses to persuade. They used this, and the character then promptly persuaded enemies to lay down their weapons, they persuaded greedy merchants to donate their wealth, etc. But the world would not sit idle when someone has such power. The powers that be promptly hired assassins to deal with the sorcerer that could realistically persuade them to give away their titles. The PC met their end in a tavern from a bolt through the neck. The other PCs narrowly escaped with their lives, and eventually managed to convince the powers that be that they too had been under the influence of the sorcerer's magic. Your world must react to the players dumb magic. If they can ROFLstomp encounters, then someone somewhere will be threatened by their power, and do what they need to do to remove the threat.
>>98367154What the fuck are you even blubbering about? If a game has combat it is inherently "powerwank" whatever the fuck that even means. It sounds like you really just hate having to think longer than five seconds about anything because you're a goldfish on the first round of reincarnation as a human.
>>98369714>bro le assassins teleport to le kill you because you invented le new magic More like they'd all start using that ability and turn the "meta" of warfare or statecraft into something really lame and gay. This sort of shit was why the Herpers were added to Forgotten Realms and people hate them as an organzation.
>>98369872Sure, they'd want the power for themselves, but they probably don't want their rivals to have it more. If they can get it for themselves, great! But keeping it out of everyone else's hands is more important.
>>98367154Examples?
>>98367238So why did you pick a game that has simulacrum in it if you don't like simulacrum? Are you stupid?
>>98367901Do you think terrain only refers to the ground?
>>98370161I didnt know it had simulacrum in it because the previous version of the game didn't. >dude just read 300 pages of rules to find every bullshit thing the PCs can do because RPGs are only for people with no jobs or lives or other hobbiesWhy did they feel the need to drastically change the power level of magic in the new "more balanced" version of the game?
>>98371148Yeah. You need to know the rules of a game to play the game. If you can't read the rules, play a different game. Are you stupid?
>>98369872>More like they'd all start using that abilityGreat. Let them. This whole issue is 100% because the GM didn't create a dynamic game world that reacts to what the players do. Lots of GMs do this, where the world is always flabbergasted and completely impotent to deal with anything that happens. Often in spite of the GM having created legendary heroes and villains that the PCs either help or fight against. In spite of all these super competent people and in spite of a lore that almost certainly include history with fantastic and over the top powerful events, the GM cannot let the game world react appropriately to player's becoming extraordinarily powerful. The fix is easy. The GM just don't want to do it.
>>98369872Into something interesting instead of boring, you mean.
>>98371313>This whole issue is 100% because the GM didn't create a dynamic game world that reacts to what the players do.It doesn't react overnight you fucking retard. You're probably one of those dumbfucks who has the PCs do something snd then LE EPIC ASSASSINS show up the next day by teleportation. >The fix is easy. The GM just don't want to do it.Sure if you want your game world to look contrived as fuck I.e. PCs learn fireball spell and the next day all the monsters show up immune to fire. Just kill yourself with this Matt Coville tier bullshit advice.
>>98371537Keep playing bad games then, retard. lmao
>>98371537>It doesn't react overnightIt doesn't have to. It only has to respond to their success in general.>LE EPIC ASSASSINS show up the next day by teleportationThat is just the cope you invented because you're annoyed that no one is agreeing with your take that this is a player side issue when it's actually a GMing issue.>PCs learn fireball spell and the next day all the monsters show up immune to fireI never argued this point nor suggested it, just like I never suggested any teleportation. It's inventions born from your insecurity so you don't have to address the issue with you having a static game world.
>>98371537You're the only one here having problems running a game. Consider taking the advice of people who are more experienced, more intelligent, and better at this than you.
>>98367154You mean min-maxing cheese build characters. Those are the problem, and are independent of campaigns.But if a system lets you make such characters, it's a bad system to begin with. No well-made TTRPG should have "best" options except "best at what it does" which should be a specific niche.So whatever system you're on about is, it's a bad TTRPG because it's a hot mess where there are objectively good and bad playstyles.
>>98367154>runningYou control the horizontal and the vertical. The beast is of your own breeding and rearing.Either put down the hammer and make the game challenging and interesting on your end or accept your fate.
>>98371984Damn it, now I want to watch the Outer Limits again. Probably some stuff in there that could be mined for tabletop.
>>98367154I think a fascinating variant of this is Exalted, where the protagonists are - flat-out - some of the most powerful people in the setting. The group working together is effectively a world-conquering force.In theory, the game handles this by making an increasingly complex escalation of things part of the setup. Like, the protagonists don't really have to delve into a 'dungeon' (barring one introductory module). They do things like overthrowing an entire state, raising an army of thousands, or converting an entire society to their cause. While the game is clunky as fuck, it is designed to let the PCs do that - In fact, the PCs are equipped with the tools to do that even as starting characters. The problem is that the game is complicated as fuck and not actually enjoyable to play as a system.
>>98371774>overnightWhy not just time skip, then?Rather, why NOT have teleportation? Your players can teleport out of any situation, so why can't the league of evil bad guys do the same thing?But if they're actually at the point where they can defeat the strongest statted monsters in the game, you have 3 options.1) buff the strongest monsters to be stronger.2) roll up PCs of your own, use them as foes. Find your own bullshit.3) have a conversation with your players. This is the best solution. Do they want to just powerwank? Ask one of them to take over as GM since you hate it. Maybe end the campaign. Tell them that it's no longer fun for you, ask to switch systems. Don't blame them or get angry at them, if a player sees an optimal action they will feel pulled to do it. Don't ask people to intentionally hurt themselves unless they already enjoy playing sub-optimally.We get it, the system let's you build unreasonable characters. You're right, the game is wrong. What do you want from us?Talk to your players. Ask them what they are enjoying, don't judge them, don't a sniveling bitch about it, don't be passive aggressive. Ask them why it's fun and tell them it's not working for you and work it out.
>>98375379>Rather, why NOT have teleportation? Your players can teleport out of any situation, so why can't the league of evil bad guys do the same thing?Because it turns the game into total shit."dude yet another pack of assassins just teleported into your castle (or the closest place that you haven't warded against it yet) and try to kill you and/or stab you in your sleep.>1) buff the strongest monsters to be stronger.I have gone pretty much to the limits that the system allows.Also, only so much of the population can be at the level of skill needed to even hit these PCs. The average person has a d6 in their attack skill. Someone with a d12 is among the best in the entire world. You can't just throw hordes of those guys at the PCs. The demographics don't make sense, even from the loosest grasp of realism. At this point there is only one type of attack that will be useful against them, and it's what I'll be using next session.But this is the problem, when you are as a GM exploiting glitches in the system to be able to challenge your characters, it degrades the fiction. Like in my Pathfinder game, where the only way to really hurt the PCs in a large battle was to have large numbers of birdmen with alchemist fire fly over and drop alchemist fires onto them, because it was against touch AC and would at least do 1 point of splash damage they couldn't avoid. That was the only economically viable way the enemy faction could wage war on them. Just to exploit glitches in the rules. And that was retarded. Also was constantly constructing high level NPCs hypertuned to be able to actually challenge them, because the default monsters weren't enough. I have to ask myself, would this campaign be good as a book or movie? Do I like visualizing it? Because for a non-D&D game, where the focus is more on the story and actually imagining what is happening, I do not want to be doing cheesy metagame counterplay and optimizing to high hell. That's whats happening here
>>98375529If you absolutely refuse to engage with the mechanical side of the game you are running, you are going to have a bad time. You're not talking about "exploiting glitches," this isn't a fucking video game. You're talking about designing encounters than will challenge your players. One thing I've noticed is that the *only* thing you talk about is doing physical damage to your players. You know you can do other stuff, right? You can hurt their allies, give them impossible choices, give them goals other than "kill every dude," right?But, aside from all that, it sounds like you need to just run a different game if actually playing the game you're running is so miserable for you.
>>98375529Yeah sounds like you need to follow my solution #3 which is the actual solution :^)I also hate that kind of high level play and when players get to it I either have them retire their characters or end the campaign.
Damn, imagine unironically deciding to play a game that has options printed in its rulebook that ruin the game when you use them. What a fucking chump lol
>>98375529NTA, but Pathfinder is great for a mutual example template actually, because it allows you and me to illustrate our points. You're not playing Pathfinder as far as I understand and you're not wiling to share what you are playing. That's fine, but then we can compare to Pathfinder as a metric for power levels.If the PCs are powerful enough to solve the world wound, and/or defeat a re-surfaced Tar-Baphon on their lonesome, then they are powerful enough to become gods via the starstone, OR otherwise (like Irori). If they are at that powerlevel, they are challenging the gods themselves, and the gods should react the same way they do when other threats surface in Golarion. If you simply want to get rid of the characters, you can elevate them to gods (or similar), and the campaign will be over, or if they are not powerful enough but act like murder hobos, the gods would send their best to deal with the growing problem. How they react depends on how the PCs act with their powers. If they're assholes about it, then treat them like the world would treat a new Tar-Baphon sort of threat. If they're heroic and good, then have the gods exploit their power level to solve the gods problems.I mean, if they are so powerful that nothing in your game world could possibly threaten them, then have a literal god or equivalent approach them and task them to deal with a problem in some other world. Either move them to that other world, or do a world wound scenario where the other world invades. Either way, that would let you create your own creatures that would all make sense because you've hand waved away the limitations of the original world.In Game solutions are always best. You cannot force a square peg into a round hole.If you are in fact sick of the campaign, then tell your players you are sick of the campaign. You are a participant, not their whore. You should also be allowed to enjoy yourself. But if the only problem is in game power levels, then that is soluble.
>>98367556Customize enemies to counter some of their abilities>But nullifying abilities sucksSo don't nullify them, make them weaker or more dangerous, like the kryptonite bullet example. Superman can wipe out a brigade of navy seals without a scratch, but if they get the jump on him and he's distracted (eg. they blow up his workplace and start shooting bullets that can kill him while he's at work) he has to be careful, one wrong move and he gets a kryptonite bullet to the brain or Lois Lane gets killed by a frag grenade.
>>98367901>Try writing a novel based on that.I thought it was fun, but maybe that's because I'm too much of a D&Dtard.
>>98375749>You can hurt their allies, give them impossible choices, give them goals other than "kill every dude," right?They have lots of goals besides "kill every dude." In fact their main enemy is completely faceless and untouchable right now, they know a fair number of details but are yet to actually catch them in the act and gain any real toehold against them.>hurt their alliesYes, and that has happened, but this gets old really fast>impossible choicesThese are often really contrived and a lot of them fall apart with characters who have the ability to travel thousands of miles instantly. Politically? They have some impossible choices right now. They're watching the world play right in to their enemies' manipulations and machinations and if they push back against one group, it creates a weakness for other factions to exploit and cause more turmoil.Problem is, that's just one aspect of the game. The other aspect is real physical combat, and unless someone catches them flat-footed with a shot to the head (which likely won't even actually kill them), they are nearly untouchable. And their combat abilities are only half the problem, it's the fact that they can create context for those battles too. You can talk about encounter design, but when the player characters have the capability to design their own encounters, it does start to fuck with the game balance.>>98376156I am starting to use abilities that can actually hurt them. But those will be the only enemies that matter, they will be focus-fired into the dirt, and they are extremely elite troops that the enemy cannot be expected to have that many of.>>98376210What happens in this novel that is like that?>>98375989What systems do you play?
>>98376045The thing is that they aren't godlike at all, not really. A large number of extremely powerful outsider-type beings could defeat them, most likely. But that is one of the only things that could. And there currently is no reason for such a group to oppose them. This isn't a kitchen sink type of setting, like D&D, and that's the problem. Making 25 balor-equivalent demons show up and just kill them, doesn't make sense. Could I contrive that scrying magic exists and they could use it to find the PCs and teleport to them? I suppose, but that would be ridiculous and contrived and shit up the story for the purpose of humbling them.>But if the only problem is in game power levels, then that is soluble.The problem is that the solution will make me sick of the campaign. It's not that style of fantasy. The gods are fully intangible non-conscious beings who are conduits of power and almost never take direct action. And I really cannot see an in-world equivalent to this. The simple fact is that they gained access to magic that completely breaks the world they are in and it was a mistake to switch versions. What I don't understand is how on earth it is satisfying to do so. When I am playing D&D, like actual D&D, then yes I do want to use all those options available to me, because the lore and game are built around that. But when I am playing a different RPG, I do not. I swear to god, these people would be happy if we were playing Traveller and they could learn to cast 1-9 level spells. It's not even that they are D&D brained, because they play and embrace non-d20 systems. But they always seem to want these high-level capabilities that suck the fun out of everything.There are no hard choices. No struggle. No tension.It feels like they just want to cheat-code their way through it all.
>>98367154What's wrong with the enemies being powerful enough that they can challenge the players? If they can do it so can you.>>98367181>freakshitoh you're one of those.
>>98376225>What happens in this novel that is like that?Rhialto is a wizard and he's part of a wizard's guild. The wizards have banded together to support their shared interests, which leads to a mixture of cooperation and scheming competition with the wizards trying to get one over on each other while not going too far to undermine their common goals. One scene that still sticks with me involves a vote being set up, and every wizard has a time stop spell prepared that they plan to use to rig the results. It's basically superdickery in book form.
>>98376356That sounds pretty kino actually.
>>98367390>I have gained respect from my players for sticking to the rules and not fudging or making up shit arbitrarily.You fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of Savage Worlds if you believe a) that the rules are exhaustive or b) that the rules are restrictive on the ST. The system is a barebones chassis upon which you homebrew your setting and its representative rules. The Companion books and setting books provide an implicit framework for homebrewing content for SWADE. Seriously, read Deadlands for examples of how to design homebrew for your setting.Boss phases can exist in your setting because the rules are deliberately generic and loose enough for you to homebrew your own content into your table's milieu without the burden of fidelity to complex mechanics. Rules on Powers and trappings are sufficiently abstract for you to contrive ad hoc, setting-appropriate answers to your players' powers.This is an issue of your own imagination, nothing else.
>>98376252>The problem is that the solution will make me sick of the campaignI understand. I quoted the above, not to minimize the rest of your post, but to highlight the most crucial piece IMO. I know the following are platitudes, but you are not obligated to GM. You are not obligated to provide entertainment for your players regardless of cost. You are not obligated to accept their characters. And even if you were to accept all of the above, the sessions should be fun for everyone involved, including you.And you are not having fun. You have so little fun that you are here, now, talking to adversarial anonymous people (many of them nogames who are only here to stir shit) about how little fun you're having and how you've essentially been painted into a corner that you can't really escape with any in game methods available to you.The solution IMO is to ask your players if they can consider playing a different set up, and in that set up you need to regulate abilities much more tightly. Or, if they are disinterested in that, you have to decide to get paint on your shoes, and walk out. You got into RPGs and GMing because you were having fun. If it's not generating fun for you anymore, then the door is across the floor. I do NOT mean that as in "ololo if you don't like it then quit". I mean it more in the sense that hobbies are meant to be entertaining, not frustrating and tiring.And your situation is frustrating and tiring.
>>98367154Try playing a system where levelling and optimization bullshit is less of an option.Maybe Traveller?
>>98378804OP's playing Savage Worlds. This is just a skill issue.My educated guess is that OP's throwing Hordes of Novice tier threats against a party that's at least Heroic tier. He's not throwing on-tier threats at the party or isn't giving them Wildcard status with the appropriate edges. The Fantasy Companion is full of Wildcard creatures that can spend all day disrupting a Vulnerable spellcaster that needs a minimum of 1 round of concentration to teleport the party to safety.
>>98379552100 percent this. They are refusing to engage with the mechanical aspect of the game, complaining that any attempt to engage with the mechanical aspect of the game would be a contrivance, and shooting down any advice they get. If they aren't just trolling, they're a fucking moron.
>>98371795Name a system that follows your standards.
>>98379552>>98379775>hordes of novice threatsThat's the only thing that would exist in enough numbers to be considered a "horde", yes. Especially considering the party often arrives to help fight in a large battle. That doesn't mean that all the nearby NPCs immediately transform into elite soldiers.That said, elite soldiers usually arrive, with d10 Fighting, improved frenzy, and tactics. Even so, pretty much every PC has area of effect abilities as well as all of them having the edge that forces ranged attacks to be against their Parry, which would be fine except it means their ridiculous Parry scores have pretty much no weakness.I had Legendary-tier wildcards with heroic-tier escorts get slaughtered in one round with AoE spam.>lol just don't have them group upThey hardly were, there were multiple PCs doing this. Guess I can start giving them all the edge that lets them dodge AoEs too (dunno why this wasn't part of the system in the first place, but whatever) so now every single NPC the characters face will have multiple meta Heroic-tier edges. And those NPCs just happen to be EVERYWHERE the characters are.>disrupting a Vulnerable spellcaster that needs a minimum of 1 round of concentration to teleport the party to safety.Okay so his parry is 10 instead of 12, effectively? It usually doesn't matter. Guess some NPC spellcaster could stop him, but again, the PCs hammer those out first and usually kill half a dozen of them in a single round and a dozen the next.I'm unleashing some well-optimized spellcaster enemies on them next session, but again, I do not want the game to turn into wizard-vs-wizard battles with everything else being irrelevant. It is just boring. >The Fantasy Companion is full of Wildcard creatures that What, like a dragon with d10 fighting? Even with the wild die and wild attacking, there is a single PC who could BTFO it in melee. Or at least dodge it with his near-20 Parry until another PC killed it with a maximized blast
>>98367154They're making up for a deficiency in their real lives. It's pathetic behavior that's common in rpgs.
>>98375529Why are you ignoring my (correct) response? Here: >>98375947Is it because you're afraid to have a conversation with your supposed friends?
Just start using intelligent enemies. Obviously an intelligent enemy has thought up a counter to any publicly known ability of PCs, and is probably watching what PCs are doing right now because obviously if PCs are a threat then he will be using farsight or some other bullshit to keep an eye on them.
>>98376252If you actually posted character sheets anyone in this thread would be able to show you how to very easily challenge them after a few minutes of barely skimming their abilities. Of course, you won't, since you don't actually want help. Attention is more valuable to you than the health of your game (which you totally didn't make up).
>>98381657Because it's clear that it will disappoint them. It is clear what their enjoyment of the campaign comes from. The combats have grown more challenging as I have adapted, but when they weren't challenging, they didn't seem to care or notice at all.>>98381699>Just start using intelligent enemies.That works for the end-game faction, who are an extremely powerful and shadowy faction. For invading barbarians they are dealing with? A lot less so. That's fine, but they still should be a challenge to fight, even at higher levels, not trivialized with "lol I cast all these spells and send monsters to attack people 1000 miles away with no consequences" or "lol I teleport bombs to random locations in their territory"
>>98381725so why did you allow those options in your game?
>>98381725Why the fuck high level PCs are dredging through wilderness and fighting some barbarian who does not know what shoelace is? At that point shadow cabals are only thing logically worth fighting for PCs
>>98367154>>98367181>>98367238Based on all your posts it sounds like you are not enjoying the system. I suggest you wrap up the campaign as soon as possible and look for a system you enjoy running more. Maybe after finishing this campaign you can try doing one or two-shots of different system to try them out and find one you like running.
>>98381734Because I trusted SWADE to be a rules update for Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition, that tidied up some rules, fixed some underpowered edges, and made the game just a bit better overall. I wasn't expecting it to drastically ramp up the power level of magic to 3.PF powerwank levels. Now they've already used those abilities, so for them to suddenly "forget" how to use them would make no sense. And even then, to ban everything I needed to ban, would have made it so that there was basically no point in running the system as it was. Because it would be better off if the developers just did not add these bullshit spells.>>98381743I don't know, if you were being invaded by the Mongol hordes who had wiped out entire kingdoms and killed millions, I would think that would be a pressing threat that the most powerful heroes of the world would see as worth fighting against.
>>98381758>just ruin one of your all-time favorite campaigns and suck it up like a cuck because a bunch of boomers wanted to relive their 3e-era munchkin wizard erections before realizing they're too old to get oneNah I'm not going to be taking the L here.
>>98381770>I don't know, if you were being invaded by the Mongol hordes who had wiped out entire kingdoms and killed millions, I would think that would be a pressing threat that the most powerful heroes of the world would see as worth fighting against.Nah, that is what the whatever local military is for. PCs will go for just the shadow cabal who incited them into war in the first place.
>>98381770>Stop the hordeOk. A laudable goal. Why not let them have it? You've mentioned narrative and storylines a lot, well, sometimes the heroes DO mop up the evil horde effortlessly. Just a few years ago, ISIS were doing a similar thing, until some REALLY big boys decided playtime was over. So... let them have the win. Hooray. The prophecy is fulfilled, King Arthur returned at his peoples darkest hour to save the day.Problem is, there's already a 'King'. And he and the rest of the nobility are presumably going to be a bit wary of a popular (in both modern and classical sense) Hero or two. You've already mentioned political BS going on in the background, so that's the direction for your next 'arc'. Teleport BS isnt going to do much against Cardinal Richelieu setting you and the other musketeers up to take the fall for the Queen's jewels. It might not save the memories for you, but it might buy you time to figure out what to do.Out of game, of course, it's important to remember you are a player too. Just one who has a slightly different role to the others. You're there for fun too, and as much as I know that it feels like being a proper buzz kill to say "guys, can we tone it down a notch?", and that you're thinking of all the bitching, moaning and "no fun allowed" shit that's going to be thrown, it's a nettle that you might have to grasp unless you want to end up like those of us who have shelves full of old rulebooks and zero motivation to do anything with them.
>>98381385>>98381385How does someone have "near-20 Parry"?2+6(d12 Fighting die)+2(Tower Sield) is 10 Parry. What edges have they taken to double the maximum non-Wildcard Parry?
Post their fucking character sheets you unmitigated brainlet.You'll get your answer soon as we know what we're dealing with in specific detail. No need to dox them, black out any player detail obviously, but until we know their stats, abilities, ect, we can't give accurate advice.Until you do that it's all just theory and masturbation.
>>98381385 I >>98382163 also glazed over the 12 Parry on the spellcaster. Yeah, you're larping.On the off chance that you're actually this much of a numbskull: You've permitted your party to "optimize" past the actual limits of the system. There's no way that a spellcaster has d12 fighting , +4 Parry from somewhere else, and enough toughness that your average chieftain can't even make them shaken, Enough power points that 10PP is pocket change for a teleport home. You're complaining about the contrivance of producing demigod level threats to deal with your PCs when they are a party of demigod level power. Learn the system.
Real question is, how the fuck did his players get to be demigod powerful without him, apparently, learning the system along the way well enough to challenge them.Presumably things scaled over time? Surely he could've expanded the threats as they did in line with what they were doing and would've organically learned to handle shit even as they did?
>>98382217Here >>98381725 he says they're still fighting barbarians. He's played it completely wrong. You don't just continue to dole out Advances while the PCs continue to curbstomp hordes of low level mooks, this isn't RuneScape and you shouldn't allow grinding.
>>98382223Advancement really has become a false god in most tabletop settings.What's wrong with characters changing in ways that aren't mechanical, or hell, even losing some shit now and then?
>>98382227>What's wrong with characters changing in ways that aren't mechanical"If it is not on paper it does not exist">even losing some shit now and then?It used to mean that negative levels were actually negative levels, not just a dispellable debuff.Got old pretty fast though, same with rust monsters.
>>98381774>I would rather have a terrible time and be mad than either talking to my friends about the situation or learning the system I've been running and creating appropriate challenges for my characters to face.Well, in that case, my advice is for you to fuck your own face. You deserve to be unhappy.
>>98381770you didn't review the rules of your own game? how did you expect to play it?
>>98367154Acknowledge this post and comply or admit you're trolling. You have three hours. I won't warn you again.>>98381721
>>98382874Are you retarded? I read the system. Sorry i didn't read every single supplement entirely through or completely conceptualize every possible combination of spells before running it. Especially after playing a system that was basically the same system and supposedly just had a few rules fixes, which I specifically sought out guides to "differences between SWEE and SWADE" to make sure I was prepared.Sorry you play 1 page RPGs off itch.io so it's easy for you to read every single "rule" and never have to worry about people who figure out a combo you didn't expect. Just stop playing stupid and go fuck yourself faggot. >>98382880Just make some fantasy heroes at 80 XP and itll be basically the same shit. Pretty much all fighter-mage type characters.
>>98383982The Core book is 100 pages and the Fantasy Companion is 274 pages. 12pt font, double spaced, graphic novel size and accessible at a 10 year old reading level.You got filtered by light reading. Even worse, you got filtered by cross referencing a couple dozen pages of rulestext against a system you claim to already know well.
>>98383982Apology not accepted. You were not sufficiently thorough. Be more thorough.
>>98383982Wrong answer. Post their character sheets. NOW.
>Doesn't want to use stronger enemies>Doesn't want to homebrew>Doesn't want to tell players "No" to using/taking abilities he doesnt like>DOES want to switch the campaign to use the latest edition of the ruleset like a video game updateThe fuck is wrong with you?
