I don't know how to put this correctly, but I feel that my DM puts a lot of...How do I say it? Deliberately off-putting content games. It's not exactly sexual or fetishistic, it's more like situations with no good answer:>One nation enslaves orcs, which are vicious and hateful creatures. Slavery's bad, but ending slavery means there's no reason to keep them alive.>The magic throne of an empire only recognizes male heirs, so there's never been a queen. A female heir means forfeiting the enchantments that keeps the nation prosperous.>Regular sacrifices are needed to keep an Elder Evil at bay. The cult doing the sacrifices doesn't like doing it, but their elaborate conspiracy is genuinely to save the world...Because they're all rich and powerful.>Necromancy requires human body parts to cast spells, so 'good' necromancers are basically powerless while notable ones are evil as shitIt's like there's no easy answer to any of these, which suck. The outcome becomes "Well, better not change the status quo, let's focus on dungeon crawling" which seems to defeat the purpose
>>98373090Your DM likes moral dilemmas, you don't. /tg/ can't help you with this.
>>98373100I mean I guess the issue is that I want to do SOMETHING but none of the options seems good.
>>98373090All of these have potencial solutions>reform the orcs or accept that a world with no orcs at all is better than one of orc slaves. There will be people who will protest but ending slavery will give jobs to commoners and ultimately be better for everyone.>find a new magic throne that is unisex. This might require tracking down the origins of the throne to learn how to make a new one.>destroy the ancient evil once and for all so that sacrifices are no longer nessesary. The cult would even help you with this if you can demonstrate it is possible. This could become a possibilty by introducing a mcguffin.>"good" necromancy is gay. Make golems if you wanna go that route.Seriously, instead of feeling dejecred talk to your GM and tell him that you would be interested in having your character pursue one of these paths so he can prepare some plot threads for it
>>98373090Send the orcs away back where they come from at the cost of those who profited from the unpaid labour.IF there's a woman who would rule the kingdom better, make her top advisor to a male figurehead. If not, leave it as it is.Make the cultists sacrifice their own instead of preying on the poor. If they don't lie about their oh so noble goal, they'll accept.Accept that there's no such thing as good necromancy and respec your wizard.Seems pretty simple to me? Not necessarily easy to accomplish, but the solutions aren't impossible.
>>98373090>but ending slavery means there's no reason to keep them aliveI see no problem. No Slavery AND n more Orcs. Win-Win>A female heir means forfeiting the enchantments that keeps the nation prosperous.tough luck, the prosperity of the nation is more important.
>>98373129>Make the cultists sacrifice their own instead of preying on the poor. If they don't lie about their oh so noble goal, they'll accept.to clarify they're not exactly 'cultists', they're rich and powerful families tasked with maintaining the seal. They don't actually get anything out of it, they're not worshippers of the dark God (and actively hate it). They're appeasers. But all their wealth and power becomes pointless if it breaks free, so they have to work together to keep it asleep.
>>98373153Thanks for the clarification, but it changes nothing in the solution. If the evil entity exists, it will probably appreciate a princess sacrifice even more than a dead peasant.
>>98373113OK. /tg/ still can't help you with it. Talk to your DM about it.
>>98373090Well, kill the ancient evil. That part is simply. The rest aren't really problems
>>98373090You're supposed to either dismantle the dilemma or color outside the lines to make a new path.> >One nation enslaves orcs, which are vicious and hateful creatures. Slavery's bad, but ending slavery means there's no reason to keep them alive.Kill the orcs. If they are really as bad as you say, keeping them as slaves is not only morally bad but its a terrible idea. Your industry becomes dependent on the unpaid labor of a group that would kill you the moment they got the chance, a slave uprising WILL happen under these circumstances and it will be especially vicious, and the consequences of having to get rid of the orcs after will collapse the economy of your nation. Get rid of them now on your own terms before the disaster becomes unavoidable. > >The magic throne of an empire only recognizes male heirs, so there's never been a queen. A female heir means forfeiting the enchantments that keeps the nation prosperous.You shouldn't have all of your eggs in one basket like that anyway, it represents a massive point of failure for the kingdom if the king dying also makes all of the magic turn off. Make 'guy who powers the throne' and 'person in charge of the kingdom' two separate positions. Also, you should probably work on making another throne, because again being dependent on this one magic artifact that only a few people can use is only good for that one family and a disaster waiting to happen for everyone else.
>>98373291> >Regular sacrifices are needed to keep an Elder Evil at bay. The cult doing the sacrifices doesn't like doing it, but their elaborate conspiracy is genuinely to save the world...Because they're all rich and powerful.Okay. If it genuinely works and helps save the world and is being done with good intentions... the only question is whether the sacrifices are being done willingly or not. It can't be that hard to explain the situation and make a religion out of this that does the whole thing above board, with those who give their lives to save the world being celebrated as heroes. Festivals thrown in their honor, their family compensated, etc. Meanwhile, you can investigate other options for how to solve the problem of the elder evil in a more permanent fashion. But until then sacrificing a handful of people a year to save everyone else is objectively worth it and its selfish to pretend otherwise.>Necromancy requires human body parts to cast spells, so 'good' necromancers are basically powerless while notable ones are evil as shit...Is this even a dilemma? You don't HAVE to use necromancy, thats a choice. Also, again, donation is the limiting factor here. There are innumerable ways to get ahold of dead bodies in a friendly way that give you access to parts to harvest for spells where you either just buy a dead body, get them from public executions, or at WORST do some grave robbing and have to high-tail it out of there if the gravekeeper spots you. This is barely even evil unless what you are using the corpses for is, itself, evil.
>>98373113Well yeah, otherwise it wouldn't be a moral dilemma.
>>98373090What are you on about? Those are just things happening in the world. Who told you there' supposed to be an "answer"?
>>98373090Those are what pros call plot hooks. They're generally considered to be a good thing
>Thothe are what proth call plot hookth. They're generally conthidered to be a good thing
>>98373328Yeah, this OP. Guess you're going to have to figure out what to do instead of just looking for the Bioware ideal answer.
>>98373090You just want a more childish fantasy with clearly defined good guys and bad guys, your GM wants things to be more nuanced. I'm insulting you a little bit because I don't share your opinions, but I want to stress that there's no "right" choice in world building design either, which ironically means that wanting reduce everything down to good vs evil anime wish-fulfillment shit like what you want is just as valid.You should actually try articulating what you want and why, and asking your GM what he wants and why. A lot of the time these disagreements just come down to people having different implicit assumptions about what a TTRPG even is, what it's supposed to simulate, and what an enjoyable narrative looks like.Sometimes people want to be on an anime romp for 12-year-olds, sometimes people want to wallow in annoying grimdark bullshit. Through TALKING and using your WORDS you can negotiate to some middle ground that works for both of you, though.
>>98373090A lot of writers and GMs include that because players ask them to treat them seriously and present problems with no instant perfect solution. But if it bothers you that much, talk to the GM about it. I can get that repetition can wear the paint off even the most novel of approaches.
>>98373090One of three things is happening.First possibility: Your GM likes morally gray scenarios, but is a bad writer who can only come up with hamfisted scenarios to demonstrate this. This is the more likely scenario and assumes that your GM just isn't that good of a writer to convey the ideas he wants.Second way is what you sussed out. He wants his world a particular way and is trying to basically cut off attempts to change his world.There's also the option for the first 2 points that he thinks slavery and sex-based rule is good, but rather than just admit that invents contrivances on why they HAVE TO be true. This one is the least likely but not impossible.
>>98373382>your GM wants things to be more nuanced.The GM's world isn't actually that nuanced.
>>98373090Hello?
>>98373466Not that guy, but I don't see any problems with not wanting to change the world. I find PCs who have a bugbear about slavery or whatever to be really tiresome.Like let's just do the adventure, who actually gives a shit about wanting to re-enact Khaleesi?
>>98373090What do you mean, "no good answer"?>Kill or expel the orcs. And slavers, if you like.>Only recognise male heirs. Why is this even an issue?>Combine ritual sacrifice with the death penalty.>Punish necromancy with the death penalty.
>>98373090Your DM sounds fucking awesome dude what the Hell are you bitching about? Stop being a whiny faggot. I'll play at that table if you don't want to
>>98373090OP
>>98373695Personally, I like when the bad guy is the hero of their own story. They are trying to protect their world, we are trying to protect ours. The tragedy of the situation is neither of us deserves to fail, but only one of us can succeed. its a battle for survival neither of us can afford to lose.
>>98373783"Hero of his own story" is just a gentle way to say "solipsistic prick who needs a good punch to the liver."
>>98373843>>98373783Children, you're both correct. >TQ These all sound very fun if your GM is willing to play along when you argue the dilemmas do not have binary solutions. Otherwise, GM sounds like they'd rather be playing warhammer or a visual novel.
>>98373090There was a time I would call this bait but I personally know people who would fall under this.
>>98373695>>98373783>YFW the most evil of people genuinely think they are doing good because their entitled monkey brain is telling themselves they are the good guy as they lie, cheat, steal, gaslight and murder their way through life while acting like the victim when karma comes to rest back on top of their head, which then proceeds to cause them to triple down on their victim complex to cause even more evil going into a everlasting spiral of destruction>YFW the good guys are painted as the bad guys when they are forced to retaliate after tolerating the bad guys schemes for so long and are surrounded by all sides because "violence is le bad" and "If you kill your enemies you are just like them!" modern mentalities.
>>98373164what happens when they are all dead and the dumb peasants can't keep it going?
>>98373843Yeah, you do.
>>98373999zero self awareness kek
>>98373090Just say to your GM that his peculiar brand of edginess isn't going nowhere, you double nigger
>>98373090>necromancers are evilThis is not edgy, this is normalTrying to subvert this is edgy
>>98373090Your complaint is that the conflicts are too interesting? Is that what I'm reading here?
>>98373090Have you tried playing traditional games?
>>98373090the only unsafe thing here is your shit titless AI art, and the only thing challenged here is you.
>>98373090>It's like there's no easy answer to any of these, which suck.Didn't realize you were such a pussy. >exterminate the orcs, who are evil and the slavers who are evil >romance the princess and become the king, rule justly and treat her well, encouraging capable and intelligent consorts, everyone wins >Kill the cultists, defeat the elder evil, save the world >use the evil necromancer's body parts to power your good necromancy, defeat them all and renounce your craft ridding the world of evil Stop being an anime posting fag and learn how to be a hero.
>>98373090>'Unsafe'You sound like a faggot
>>98373100fpbp
>>98373164The obvious method for the rich folk would be to get a shitload of mistresses, fuck like crazy, and sacrifice newborn babies or grown bastards raised to be sacrifices and nothing more.It's not really a solution.
>>98373090The setring crafted by a dm can't be trusted to be morally and ethically "ideal" (in that case, why get involved?). Your dm most likely has made every place intentionally flawed to drive a conflict. Do you try to maintain the status quo or do you try to reform. Examples:>Are the orcs truly vicious and hateful or is this propaganda of the enslaver? And even if it is the truth, does the orc not have the right to selfdeterminatio ? Even if said self-determination leads to death?>Why is this enchantment so important though? Is there a way to remove the needs of an enchantment so the kingdom isn't dependent on a royal line anymore?>Just kill the elder evil when you hit level 20>Kill all necromancers, let the dead be dead. Accept loss as part of the cycle of life.
>>98373090>It's like there's no easy answer to any of these, which suck.The outcome becomes "Well, better not change the status quo, let's focus on dungeon crawling" which seems to defeat the purposeCopy this text. Replace the word "suck", with "is very much not to my taste". Add "Could we discuss potential changes?" To the end. Send to your dm. Wa la.
>>98373090Easy answers are dumb because if shit was easy someone would've fixed all of those problems ages ago. PCs may be special, but not "we are the sole people with functioning brains"-special.It's also dumb to look for the "correct answers" instead of a "what my PC would consider correct". Don't metagame solutions to nuanced problems, nuanced problems usually have convincing arguments both for revolution and keeping the status quo. Figure out what your PC believes, what arguments are more salient to their moral and ideological framework, then work from there. Accept the consequences and deal with them as appropriate to your PC.
>>98373090>One nation enslaves orcs, which are vicious and hateful creatures. Slavery's bad, but ending slavery means there's no reason to keep them alive.Anon that's just prison.
>>98373090It depends a lot on the context of the situations on whether to deal with the issues now or at a time when there aren't existential threats (in which case your party can help by making them non-existential), but in a vacuum>End the slavery lest it corrupts the nations morals, and kill the Orcs, who exist for no other reason than to perpetuate this vice.>Preserve the throne, it's not like anyone gets over a tizzy from the fact the Emperor of Japan is always the male heir, or that only women can give birth.>End the sacrifices, if the rich and powerful (like say, a group of notable adventurers amassing a repertoire of contacts and resources) are actually rich and powerful they can expend their resources toward an alternative. (HINT. HINT.)>End necromancy, it's basically a vector for vices like slavery.
>>98373695>>98373783I enjoy both types of stories. :-)
>>98376656Before the first to-be-sacrificed bastard is born, there's nine months of wait that verify how truthful the aristocrats are.
>>98373090>Obvious plot hook>Possibly also a plot hook, but more nothing to see there>Obvious plot hook>Ok, necromancy is evil. What else is new? Not that this specific issue is particularly evil in itself
>>98373090These aren't problems a player character has to solve. If they arent really problems at all, they're just parts of the game world.Have you tried not being a big baby?
>>98373090This is more of an issue with modern Millennial writing. If you notice, there is a trend were EVERYTHING had to be "morally gray" a vast amount of peple who write, are just incabable and writing black and white good vs evil, because modern society has to evaluate everything and follow bullshit like "Well your truth might not be their truth." or some faggy shit.
>>98373090>'good' necromancers are basically powerless while notable ones are evil as shitSounds like the only real necromancers are the evil ones, so just ban necromancy and assume all necromancers are evil.
>>98377334>millenialgen x
>>98377334>If you notice, there is a trend were EVERYTHING had to be "morally gray" a vast amount of peple who write, are just incabable and writing black and white good vs evil, because modern society has to evaluate everything and follow bullshit like "Well your truth might not be their truth." or some faggy shit.Its because we grew up with the war on terror, where the media blasted us with pure 'black vs white', 'good vs evil' rhetoric to justify our actions but even as teenagers we knew that it was bullshit. We invaded Iraq out of greed, not justice, and no amount of fox news propaganda could change that. The term terrorism was thrown around so often and so frivilously that it rapidly lost meaning.So what people of my generation internalized growing up was an immediate distrust of anyone we were told was supposed to be 'the good guys'. Judge them based on their actions, not their sales pitch, and see whether what they do reflects how 'good' they are supposed to be.And once you introduce that seed of doubt, a lot of protagonists turn into psychopaths if you assume that the people they are slaughtering are... you know... *people* and not just human shaped monsters.
>>98373090Your DM sounds awesome. You need to quit being a fucking pussy, put some thought into your choices and consider yourself lucky that your spoiled rotten, thin skinned puss bucket ass doesn't have to worry about anything actually complicated in real life. Frankly if you were at my table I'd kick you. Not out of of the game. In the fucking grill.
>>98373090You know, this is exactly why people do session zero type shit and discuss the tone and themes and ideas of a game before playing, right? If you agree to show up and insist on continuing to play, despite your flaccid objections to your GM's ideas and world, that's entirely on you.
>>98373126I think emancipating the orcs - however you do this, whether with abolition or holocaust - would just mean that someone else would get enslaved. Agriculture used all kinds of non-free labour, so you might end up with various "I can't believe it's not slavery!" solutions like serfdom or corvee labour.
>>98373090>>Regular sacrifices are needed to keep an Elder Evil at bay. The cult doing the sacrifices doesn't like doing it, but their elaborate conspiracy is genuinely to save the world...Because they're all rich and powerful.>>Necromancy requires human body parts to cast spells, so 'good' necromancers are basically powerless while notable ones are evil as shitHold on a second. You got a world that requires human sacrifice to stop a dark evil. And necromancers that are able to bring the dead back to life of a sorts at the expense of body part. AND and influx of orcs you need to get rid. AND a queen that very quickly needs to get rid of a body party!I HAVE AN IDEA!
>>98373090None of these are problems that need to be solved. They are setting details. Accept that you are playing in a fantasy world that is different than the real world. You don't need to make everything in the setting a copy paste of your irl modern morality. Try roleplaying.
>>98380952>So what people of my generation internalized growing up was an immediate distrust of anyone we were told was supposed to be 'the good guysThis There's no such thing as good guysJust bad guys whose motivation you haven't figured out yetEveryone is bad
>>98376797You really think the aristocrats don't already have least favorite bastards around? There's likely enough bodies to last the nine months unless it's full 40k-style "a thousand souls a day" shit.
>>98380952We invaded Iraq because of Netanyahu's testimony of WMDs brother. We got jewed. Thats part of why the propaganda machine ran so hard.
>>98381025There may be a magic-based solition possible, like harvesting golems or setting up academies to teach druidic magic. Enterprising individuals could learn this plant magic and sell their services
>>98381031>She vill have an enormous schwanstucker!Also, sacrificing orcs? Risky idea, what if the elder evil finds a way to keep their souls and create uberorcs or something?Honestly, I'm fairly sure if you openly advertised you could get some who are willing to offer themselves, for family, friends or because they've decided they don't give a fuck about their lives.Offer 1 year of anything they wan, make a wish style.
>>98381966>Also, sacrificing orcs? Risky idea, what if the elder evil finds a way to keep their souls and create uberorcs or something?The elder couldn't keep them out of slavery, they're not gonna give a fuck. It's probably part of their culture to let the weaker orcs eat shit.
>>98381968I'm thinking more of it in terms of handing a nail file to a prisoner. If orcs are dicks then surely their souls are dicks, so don't have them anywhere near the elder evil.
>>98380952>a lot of protagonists turn into psychopathsIn games - particularly video games maybe. In other media I can't think of any off the top of my head. Mostly the "people" they kill are trying to kill them, or at least are part of organisations doing obviously evil things.Not that I disagree with the rest much. The "You're with us or you're with the terrorists/demons/whatever" line is always bullshit.>>98381861Good thing you learned your lesson. Right?
