The widespread opinion among players is that D&D has become quite bad, while some will say that it was always bad.However, it is a household name that is "always" going to remain popular. If you wanted to make a RPG from scratch that could appeal to seasoned D&D players and new players alike, or, in other words, that could draw in people interested in fantasy RPG and be a commercial success, what would you have mechanically and fluff wise? Considering that Daggerheart, Draw Steel and Pathfinder just aren't doing it right for some reason.
D&D is the average of what every fantasy player wants. As their desires are so heterogenous, the exact average pleases nobody. If you move toward anyone's preference, you move away from someone else's.
>>98379351I disagree. Between legacy, trademark features and pic related, there are things that drive away everyone without attracting anyone.My opinion is that stuff like this is very unpopular even among "wokes" and it has to go and whichever RPG goes completely in the opposite direction will get a lot of interest, provided that it doesn't go full /pol/tard.
>>98379363Meant pic related and couldn't delete my post.
>>98379363>>98379373I'm sure it isn't even about good orcs or being woke.Pic related, Dungeon Meshi, is very popular among woke girls and wokes in general, other than normal people and /tg/. It has "good" orcs, which is, ambiguously noble savages who play a good role in the story. They aren't as repulsive as ranchero orcs and I'm sure it's not just my taste. Even "wokes" feel the same way.
Wow, didn't take long for this thread to mask-off.
>>98379363>>98379373>>98379394Fluff differences: DM orcs are still "cannibals" and kill other races on sight unless they have a reason not to. Which makes their "good" more relativistic, and more fascinating.Style differences: they wear realistic clothes and wield realistic weapons. While in the Ranchero Orcs image, we see that ugly, unrealistic MMO axe mixed with modern-ish clothes.This is a general issue of most new fantasy RPGs, at least the popular ones. They project a very ugly aesthetic that I genuinely think is unappealing to most people. Pic related looks AI generated
Might as well ask what can dethrone Pokemon. The answer is nothing, though not for lack of trying. Pokemon competitors will never have that je ne sais quois. This same thing goes for any so called popular IP competitor.
>>98379460Well, I agree that nothing can dethrone D&D itself, but what could dethrone D&D's competitors?
>>98379488>what could dethrone D&D's competitorsPathfinder, which then shit the bed in it's second edition in an attempt to chase 5e for popularity.With any luck, wizards will kill the franchise with the inevitable 6e led by whatever is left of the dev team after their biggest names left the company, and it won't be until 7e that the game has any cultural relevance again.
>>98379538PF2 exists because 5e killed PF1 sales, which were already approaching the usual doom cycle of splatbook diminishing returns.
>>98379625But rather than try to keep their identity as a 3.5 clone, they tried to copy 5e, which lacks the crazy build variety that Pathfinder had built its niche upon.
>>98379488>Well, I agree that nothing can dethrone D&D itself, but what could dethrone D&D's competitors?Usually their own incompetence. Same for competitors to 40K.
>>98379316It wouldn't matter how amazing a system is, it'll never dethrone D&D on its own merits because Dungeons and Dragons is the "default" ttrpg and a household name.If someone wanted to dethrone D&D what they would need to focus on is making extremely popular media outside of ttrpgs. For example, really good video games or engaging shows that form their own fandoms.
>>98379316>If you wanted to make a RPG from scratch that could appeal to seasoned D&D players and new players alike, or, in other words, that could draw in people interested in fantasy RPG and be a commercial success, what would you have mechanically and fluff wise?Same thing all the OSR boom did for the last decade, don't even bother making a new system. Use the familiar and memetic properties of dnd that already advertise your product for you and keep churning out kickstarter cashgrabs.
>>98379316What can compete: OD&D, Holmes D&D, AD&D 1e or 2e, B/X, BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia. Any version with a TSR on it. All vastly superior to current D&DINO.
>>98379316Probably not much, short of WotC completely shitting the bed.To dethrone D&D, you'd need a lot of people to leave that sphere, but once they do 95% of them will realize that the best part of TTRPGs is picking one that fits your preferences and your campaign.
>>98379316Fantasy flight games’ genesys can compete if blank dice and dice decal templates for printing can be found.There’s also chaosium’s basic roleplaying universal game engine.I’m not sure if gurps truly competes as there are so many books for it.
>>98379450Only one white guy in that picture and he looks like a shorty.
>>983796363.x has a lot of pain points, and after 19 years and 3 editions, a new clean slate design was the right call.
>>98379316Much like 40k, the only thing that can beat D&D is itself. Part of the problem is that one step down from "normies who don't even understand that don't even comprehend that there are RPG other than D&D" are the troglodytes that believe anything and everything can be played in D&D and are highly vocal and pushy about that fact. Many a group has played retarded crowbarred homebrews of 5e because someone said "hey, this other game looks cool, maybe we can play it" and these gibbons had already googled a half-baked D&D equivalent and started prosthelyzing it as "easier to learn" and "just as good for the genre".
>>98379316I would love to learn pf1e, VtM and cyberpunk but there is noone near me to teach me/play with me
>>98379351>D&D is the average of what every fantasy player wantsAverage player doesn't know what they want. They don't know what "fantasy" even means. D&D, as a fantasy game, is more of a vague meme that people inflict upon each other. It's a product with well known proper nouns and familiar concepts because the game is older and more ingrained into pop culture and video games than any other RPG to ever exist. Even still, no one reaches for D&D because it's the system that most embodies what they want out of a fantasy game. It's just the game that nearly everyone they know happens to be playing and they just want to run either faggy theater kid shit or endless braindead combat. They aren't playing because it's the best fantasy game that satisfied their specific desires for a fantasy fiction.
>>98379460Pokeslop and Nintendo got humiliated by Palword
My dream scenario would be a game called "Swords and Sorcery" that rests partway between base/core 5e and OSR sensibilities and has a very, VERY strong aesthetic of, well, swords-and-sorcery.5e's underlying math and mechanics are solid; Move, Action, Bonus Action, Proficiency Bonus, Advantage, +1d4/-1d4, bounded accuracy. Maybe Bonus action should be used for non-action actions like stances or second wind or aiming or spell focus or whatever, I don't know, maybe just removed entirely as clicky bloat.But the copious player options and character buildcrafting are ultimately cancer that feeds player narcissism while adding not enough value at the table, it all has to go. The best time I've had gaming since college has been playing Dungeon Crawl Classics at a pub, where every game is ultimately a one-shot with persistent characters who can and do die often, and I do not miss feat trees as much as I thought I would.At this point, it'd have to be humans-only, its been conclusively proven that allowing non-humans to exist just creates an arms-race for ever more obscure fantastical cosmetic race options; back in 3.5, everyone was some kind of elf, now everyone is a non-binary tiefling.
>>98379921It financially flopped, so I don't think the route they went was the correct call. A new clean slate design doesn't entail copying 5e when 5e is still played and is popular isn't the same thing as copying 3.5 when 4 was released and people were hesitant on moving into an entirely different system.
>>98379675Agree, it needs to be an IP with its own identity.Right now, people import conceptual shit into the game that actively fights against the genre; the last anime they saw, reddit cringe, steampunk, cozy cottagecore, contemporary urban political queerness, I'm sure Romantasy is going to start leaking in as well soon if it hasn't already.It needs a cheap live-action TV show, like firefly but mudcore fantasy.
At this point I don't think anything can compete with anything. The brands are too established and the audience too myopic.
>>98379675>Dungeons and Dragons is the "default" ttrpg and a household name.It's not even that it's a household name. It's become THE name for pen and paper rpgs. Nobody even really says table top. you could be part of a pathfinder or shadow run campaign and people will ask it you're playing DnD. It's like my Nana who used to call every video game system a Nintendo.
>>98379430>mask-offWow, it didn't take long for this leftist to mask-off.Nobody here likes wokeDND, this isn't a "masked" position it's the default.
>>98379450>This is a general issue of most new fantasy RPGs, at least the popular ones. They project a very ugly aesthetic that I genuinely think is unappealing to most people.I noticed something similar. And considering this has been a problem long before AI ever was, I really don't know why they all seem to come off the same assembly line. You'd think there would be more artstyle differences, but it always feels like the same guy gets hired by everyone with a sword & sorcery bent.
>>98379373Nobody gives a flying fuck. Anyone who cares either dropped D&D or just refluffed orcs. Only (You) people get this bent out of shape over singular deviations to the point you need a clean slate.
>>98379450I don't know that I'd say it was "realistic" but there was a better sense of verisimilitude. The worlds knew what they wanted to look like so there was a more cohesive tone. Newer is just all over the place. It's got the sense that nobody was ever allowed to say NO to something. So it ends up all clashing.
>>98380815As usual, the angriest anon (you) can't read.
>>98380898>the desecration and sacrilege of our hobby.Its a picture in a book you fucking queer.
>>98380975>You can just accept it all and do what you want anyways>What no we can't do that ourselves that would be stupid
>>98381039normally i would "who are you quoting" you but i genuinely cannot parse the meaning of your excretion
>>98379316there's a reason why wotc wrote 'worlds greatest roleplaying game' on the cover.they were right
>a corporation has made slop that doesnt release the same amount of dopamine in my brain as when i was a child/teenagerread real history and folklore. historical wargaming is the only way to get dopamine from this hobby as an adult.
>>98381331when'd you lose your whimsy?
>>98379316Honestly, it boils down to make meme/viral content and lore made with alternative systems.In Japan there's a mid-sized competitor called "Sword World", which is mainly popular because the light novels and later the anime based on the Record of Lodoss War campaing narrations. Basically this original content is the reason the system exists and has a sizeable following. (BTW the original campaigns were made with D&D, but the creators had to come up with Sword World because WoTC was being a bitch)And if you really pay attent, D&D itself rellies on this marketing strategy as well. The primary reason D&D is popular isn't just the system but all the content surrounding the background lore such as the Forgotten Realms, ranging from comics to books to video games. D&D, in particular modern D&D, is extremelly flawed, but it still has better lore and supporting material than any of its competitors.Basically you can create the best system in the world, if you don't have at least one GOOD story that showcases it, its DOA.Now I'm talking about pure normie/mainstream adoption. Autistic nerds are chad who just will use whatever they want.
I know ACKS gets shilled here a lot, but I think a game like it has a lot of potential. Despite being "literally D&D" it has a lot of fundamental differences from modern D&D and even most OSR. But I think it's not ambitious enough. I think it needs more in-depth rules for what I call "in-context gaming" which is basically anything that isn't just your character's stats and backstory in a vacuum, such as >crafting things in downtime>alchemy systems>domain systems>trade/barter systems>running a business>running a guild>trainingetcD&D 5e kind of touched on this with the 2024 rules and the Xanathar's Guide domain rules. ACKS has rules for domain play and turning D&D into a 4x game, but it kinda sucks and is too spread-sheet tier.Something that bridges the gap between the two could be very powerful.Tactical combat plus in-depth systems (procedures) for resolving things besides combat, that are engaging but not too complex, could make for a game that really feels like a living world, where you can invest in the world because even once you hit max level you havent' conquered the enire world, and you can play the next generation of characters. Maybe you could run it a bit like Pendragon RPG in parts.I don't know. I just feel like domain play in OSR games is really fulfilling in a way that most D&D campaigns do not leave me feelings. I have played and DMed campaigns up to level 20 repeatedly, and the ones that stuck with me most were the ones where the PCs left a legacy, not just reacting to the BBEG encroaching on the world and "putting out fires" type of storyline.
>>98381647>>running a guildNo
>>98381647>ACKS has rules for domain play and turning D&D into a 4x game, but it kinda sucks and is too spread-sheet tier.This is ultimately why domain play died a natural death in the mass market and is largely treated as a grandfather-clause given lip service in the few big gamelines to have roots in it. "Being spreadsheets" is the only way to actually have accurate and functional abstractions for running an entire territory that don't use a fuckton of fiat, but it fundamentally will never appeal to anyone but the most anal book-keeping autists on the planet. It's a catch-22: there's no way to make it accessible to anyone outside an extremely fraction-of-a-fraction playerbase with without losing the essence of what you're simulating and/or telling the GM "fuck you, figure it out" as 5e does. It's better off relegated to board games than TTRPGs.
>>98380519PF2 didn't copy 5E in any meaningful way and if Paizo faced the shitshow that they're dealing with right now with Diamond Comics but in 2010 or 2011 it would have instantly killed Paizo as a company and PF1 as a game.
>>98379316>If you wanted to make a RPG from scratchi am actually>that could appeal to seasoned D&D players and new players alike, or, in other words, that could draw in people interested in fantasy RPG and be a commercial success,i think this is a flawed objective. seasoned players dont like D&D except for fans who we will struggle to pry away from a system they like. it's better to create something appealing to those who dislike D&D.>Considering that Daggerheart, Draw Steel and Pathfinder just aren't doing it right for some reason.i never played daggerheart or draw steel because they're D&D clones and i dont like D&D (although i hear DS is interesting), and i hated pathfinder for doubling down on everything that makes D&D unenjoyable. they failed because they made more of something noone is asking for - the haters hate and the fans dont want to switch. >what would you have mechanically and fluff wise?the same or better smoothness of play, but with meaningful decisions to be made at every step of gameplay. every subsystem must be dynamic and variable enough to encourage thought, but not punish people for ignoring it.
>>98379316Nothing. Look at a site like Roll20, there are 32 pages of games being advertised, and 20 of those pages are DnD5e, more than all the other games combined, including other versions of DnD.Though an even bigger problem is that 18 out of those 32 pages are *paid* games. Also more than all the other games combined. And there are multiple other big sites to advertise paid games, while there are no other big sites to advertise free games.The role playing hobby is lost. If it's not 5e, it's wokies or paid games. Everything good is dead.
>>98382440>If it's not 5e, it's wokies or paid gamesAnybody can run tabletoo. Why are the "wokies" running more games than """real""" gamers?
>>98382539I've been trying to figure that out myself. There are some non-woke RPG communities, but they're all OSRfags.
>>98381647It was guaranteed you'd come here to try and shill your shit game, ACKSfag. Fuck off already.
>>98382539That's because there's really only three options.>pro-faggotAlways allowed, and depending on where you are it may even be mandatory. You can be as loud and obnoxious about it as you want and nobody's allowed to complain.>anti-faggotStraight to jail.>indifferentThis is where most people probably fall, but it isn't really possible to be aggressively indifferent to anything without coming off as being opposed to it and getting unperson'd.
>>98380519>It financially floppedIt did not. There are statements and financial reports (iirc) that attest to this. This isn't surprising splatbooks have diminishing returns and nothing sells better than core rules.
>>98380727It's always the suits getting paranoid of their investments, they will keep trimming down until taking all the interesting things away because they're afraid of losing potential clients that never intended to buy nothing in the first place
>>98382440>wokiesNerds are very liberal and always have been. Boo hoo.>paid gamesD&D is unique in that it has an excess of people are excited to play it, rather than excited to run it.>Everything good is dead.Just run what you want and maybe your friends or internet randos will like it. Outside of specific regions, running anything else is for the GM's pleasure.
>>98382963>Nerds are very liberal and always have been. Boo hoo.Not really, you disingenuous twat.>D&D is unique in that it has an excess of people are excited to play it, rather than excited to run it.No, it isn't. Every role playing game is like that.>>98382963>Just run what you want and maybe your friends or internet randos will like it.Everyone loves my games, but I'm sick of entertaining soulless leeches who just want a captive audience to masturbate in front of.
>>98379761Hasbro is desperate to turn D&D into online-only and subscription-based. They're well on their way to destroying the brand within another 5-10 years on their own.
>>98379316>The widespread opinion among players is that D&D has become quite bad, while some will say that it was always bad.No, that's mostly the nogames on /tg/ and if you have no games your opinion on games is irrelevant. Whine all you want, but it's the truth, especially when most of those opinions are based on ignorance. Every time I see "UHHH D&D DOESNT HAVE RULES FOR [THING]" I check the books and wow, what do you know, rules for [thing].>However, it is a household name that is "always" going to remain popular.Yeah, because it came first. It's been in pop culture for around 50 years now. It's like how some people call soda or pop Coke, or how people call potato barrels tater tots even though those are brand things. D&D is, to the uninitiated, a colloquialism for a TTRPG.>If you wanted to make a RPG from scratch that could appeal to seasoned D&D players and new players alikeWhy would I care about doing that? If your main reason for creating a TTRPG is just to one-up the popular thing, you've already failed.>what would you have mechanically and fluff wise?It would have to be a narrative-focused game with mechanics that are easy to learn and fun to master. You need to appeal to the Critical Role crowd as well as the 3aboss who are too retarded to do anything without 5000 pages or rules on how to do that one thing (though most of them are PFshitters now). Keep it simple, stupid.>Considering that Daggerheart, Draw Steel and Pathfinder just aren't doing it right for some reason.Because the former two are glup shitto literally who games, and the latter is just 3.5 but somehow worse. It has no appeal with the modern TTRPG crowd, or most modern audiences. Too much bookkeeping.
>>98379316the best rule set is one that can be easily adapted and changed to your own desires. D&D is the antithesis to that.
>>983830465e/2024 is absolutely that because you aren't going to shatter the entire system by adding a new race or class or subclass because unlike 3.5 or Pathfinder, the system isn't feat simulator 2026 where changing one little thing breaks 5000 other things or requires you to make 5000 new things just to make the one thing you want to add work.Now, should you use D&D - of any edition - to be a catch-all system? No. Should you use a generic system instead of one specifically designed for what you want to run/play? Also no, don't be a lazy faggot and go find a system that does what you want.
>>98383087>Should you use a generic system insteadthe answer to this is yes, absolutely. part of the fun of playing with various systems is changing and bending them to your will and desires. the only people who 100% accept systems as they are and play them 100% according to rules are be the biggest psychopaths that walk this earth and should be avoided at all cost if you care about p&p.
>>98382988>Not really, you disingenuous twat.Yes really. You can look at the politics of SFF authors, living TSR alumni, other things like Ren Faires. Nerd shit has an obvious liberal bent.>No, it isn't. Every role playing game is like thatMost people are showing up to whatever the GM is running because it's a social hobby. Left to their own devices, they'd pick D&D. People just aren't stoked to play Vampire or CoC like they are D&D.There's nothing wrong with running other games because you as a GM want variety or having a bunch of the work done for you for some concept. The GM should have fun too. It's just not something most players feel strongly about.
>>98383032>It's like how some people call soda or pop Coke, or how people call potato barrels tater tots even though those are brand things.Some *Americans*. This isn't really a thing anywhere else.
>>98383140>Nerd shit has an obvious liberal bentah yes, like asimov, whose solution to barbaric races constantly causing war is techno-enslavement and portrays this in a positive light. love his liberal ideas like you wouldn't believe kek
>>98383140"Liberal" is gibberish in this context. It really says nothing, except the lack of culture of its user (usually American).
>>98379373You should delete all of your posts.
>>98379316I think the combat needs a revision. Giant HP bars are disgusting, and there is little place for creativity and cleverness from PC.
>>98383140Ren faires are a symptom of the disgusting woke theatre kid invasionPlainly obvious by the over representation of women compared to any other nerd shit like wargaming, tcgs or traditional larp
>>98383280"Conservative" is also gibberish in this context. It really says nothing, except the lack of culture of its user (usually American).You shouldn't approach socio-political commentary if your conceptualization of the topic doesn't go beyond that of a clueless boomer.
>>98383111Generic systems don't work as well as specific ones. A system specifically designed for a genre will be better than a generic one trying to do the same thing 100% of the time, because the generic one can't have rules that are fleshed out enough. Worse, most generic systems require the GM to do extra work by banning 90% of the content just to get something that almost functions but doesn't.Nothing wrong with houserules and homebrew but generic systems are so reliant on these that you might as well just write your own, specific system at that point. It'll be of higher quality and do what you want 1000% better than any generic system ever could.
>>98383280Liberalism and progressivism are fundamentally different concepts. They just happen to have aligned for much of the late 20th century and the first decade of the 21st century.In plain English, liberals like social equality and individual rights.Wokies are trying to wield social and institutional powers to force conformity or destroy anything system that wont conform to their world view. authoritarianism isn't a bad thing for them as long as their ideological desires are pushed. Destroying or radically reshaping societal systems is intentional, not a side effect.
>>98381979Even Gygax's idea of domain-level play and strongholds and shit was >your character hit level 10. Retire them and make a new one.Because he believed anyone strong enough to be commanding armies and maintaining a castle of their own would stop going on adventures and risking their lives in dungeons.
>>98379316>D&D has become quite bad>becomeYou can't become something you were from the start>it is a household nameOnly if you are clueless/American. And even that didn't prevent DnD from being 3rd rate game by the 90s. The only reason it bounced back was ENORMOUS marketing campaign worth more than the entire hobby combined. The same reason why it stays there since WotC started pouring their income into it.>Consider DnD clonesWhy would I?The problem you are trying to fix isn't "is there a game better than DnD". The problem you are looking at is "can you compete with WotC marketing campaign's budget". And the answer is: only GW is anywhere remotely close, which is also the reason why WFRP is the 2nd biggest system, followed by Chaosium and their CoC marketing budget on third spot.Those three games have, combined, marketing that takes over 90% (and in lean years it goes past 95%) of total TTRPG marketing campaigns.
>>98383528I have literally never heard of people playing WHFRP outside tg and I've lived in 2 major cities, one tech hub, one university town, and a small town.Conversely, I have seen a lot of people try the 40k rpgs and DnD of all flavors. I've heard of people playing a couple uncommon games but where on earth are you pulling WHF as the second most popular role-playing game from? Shit man, I even knew a few groups of Exalted, vampire, and CoC players.
>>98383708NTA, but maybe he lives in Poland? Or other Central-ish European country.
>>98383490But that's when the game changes into you conquering land and changing the setting and leaving your true mark on the world.
>>98383805Sounds based AF not gonna lie. Kind of envious.
>>98379316Come home, white man.
