>>98387748
Then don’t play D&D, OP. Easy.

>>98387748
>if you want to use bare hands for combat

y tho

>98387758
As much as I do enjoy D&D, I agree. Play a different game.

>>98387748
Yeah you can play GURPS instead and punch like a handgun

>>98387748
except in DnD with a couple of feats you can do that, what you're complaining is that with that couple of feats you aren't as efficient as a dude clad in full armor and with a sword. That's where the monk enters, he's not a martial artist, he's a dude with magic fist and magic energy who uses fists

I haven't played 5.5 but in 5e the battlerager barbarian with unarmed style feat was already better at punching, grappling, armbars, shoving and tripping than monk while also lasting far longer in battle

>>98387758
That's a bit of a dishonest argument, because this specific monk-archetype is found within many other systems, and it's not just D&D-clones either.
It's rare to find unarmed combat be a viable option without the chi-kungfu-bullshit attached to it.
Yeah yeah, "make your own game, anon", working on it

>>98387785
>I haven't played 5.5 but in 5e the battlerager barbarian with unarmed style feat was already better at punching, grappling, armbars, shoving and tripping than monk while also lasting far longer in battle
I will check this out, thanks.

>>98387786
play Anima BF, there you have the Tao a martial artist class but martial arts are tables you can buy in any class, for Tao they're just cheaper. In the long run Tao only has the benefit of knowing more martial arts, but if you want to specialice in a couple any martial class (warrior, acrobatic warrior, shadow, master of arms, psychic master, etc) can do that no problem

>>98387748
Nice pits.

>>98387803
>point buy
ewwww

>>98387748
Which edition? AD&D has amazing unarmed combat rules.

There's a Pugilist playtest class for 5.5e.

>>98387748
So play PF1e, use the Brawler class and try to get your DM to allow the original version of Pummeling Style (if any of your combined hits is a crit they all crit) though even the nerfed version isn't bad.

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>>98387808
They're not bad.

>>98387748
Unironic "Have you tried not playing D&Dogshit?" moment.

Of course you haven't though. The very idea is inconceivable to retard DnDrones.

>>98387748
>if you want to do a specific thing, play a specific class
That's how class systems are supposed to work.
>>98387786
Unarmed vs armed combat is a really terrible idea without some sort of magic bullshit attached to it. And even then it tends to be better to use your magic bullshit with weapons. Even picking up a stick gives you a huge boost in range and leverage.

>>98388404
>That's how class systems are supposed to work
Other classes are allowed to specialize in different weapon classes, which changes their playstyle during a fight. Fighters aren't forced to use shields + one-handed weapons, barbarians don't need to use two-handed weapons and even rangers aren't forced to exclusively use ranged weapons.
>without some sort of magic bullshit attached to it
That's not the problem, these games have superhuman heroes performing superhuman feats. Don't appeal to realism, you will have so much more to complain about. It's about the powerfantasy.

>>98387786
>working on it
Same, I'm doing a combo system that uses a series of opposed rolls with branching options based on the results with the goal of making a single actual attack at the end that bypasses most defense, so an unarmed attack can hit like a truck but without the need to inflate the damage for the sake of parity, it might make your turn take a little longer but I'm hoping it's worth it. I'm also going to include the option for skipping the rolls if your skill is sufficiently higher than your target, but it would mean foregoing the bonuses you might get from a really lucky roll, and there'll be defensive options you can use when attacked that affect the opposed rolls and also have branching results based on what happens.

>>98387748
>mechanics
lol each shit, you 5E brained faggot

>>98387748
>why no weapon not as good as weapon?

This isn't necessarily a D&D issue but more an issue with the system assuming the majority of players will want weapons, magic, or both. The 40K RPGs ultimately also make unarmed combat a suboptimal way to play for similar reasons because why the fuck are you specializing in punching when there's power swords and space wizards out there dude?

>>98387785
>with a couple of feats
So level 8 at minimum, unless you can beg your DM.

>>98388440
>Other classes are allowed to specialize in different weapon classes, which changes their playstyle during a fight.
So use any of the monk weapons which allow you to use the better of their damage or unarmed, plus have special qualities or deal alternate damage types and are cheaper to enchant than most stuff you'd apply to fists since those have to use the amulets for natural weapons and such. Want more specialization? There are feats. PrCs and archetypes to really focus on particular combat styles if Bruce Lee isn't your overall goal. Hell, there's the Zen Archer if you want to be a ranged monk beyond throwing shuriken.

>>98388847
>There are feats
One per 4 levels, unless you can beg your DM.

>>98387748
>Doesn't know how to read the fucking rules
As of 2024, Fighter has access to the Unarmed Fighting Style which grants d6 + STR unarmed strikes, d8 + STR if you're completely unarmed and you do a free d4 Bludgeoning to a creature every time you start your turn grappling that creature, no action required.

Tavern Brawler is also now an Origin Feat, if you'd prefer to stick with a D6 + STR, get Improvised Weapon Proficiency so you can glass a motherfucker for more damage, and lets you damage + Push a creature when you hit it with an Unarmed Strike. On top of this, it's an Origin Feat so anyone can take it at any time, even at chargen.

To wrap up your ignorance in posting this thread, Unarmed Strikes in 2024 are no longer just punching someone. You can either:
>Roll d20 + STR + Prof Bonus, doing STR + 1 damage on a hit, more if you have either of the above features or the Monk Martial Arts die
>Grapple, and it specifies you just need to be within one size of it and have empty hands which means a Thri-keen Fighter with Unarmed Fighting can grapple 4 people at once and do a free 4d4 bludgeoning every turn which is insane
>Shove, you can force a save or either shove the enemy 5 feet away which RAW would let you pop an opportunity attack on it or knock it Prone which on a fighter means you can hit them with the 7 page muda with all your attacks having Advantage.

TLDR, you need to read the book, man of dark complexion.

Or, y'know, play that stupid Pugilist meme class that's semi-supported 3P content.

>>98388674
>>98388957
No actually, as of 2024, you can get Tavern Brawler with your Origin at Level 1, or you can take the Unarmed Fighting Style at Level 1 on Fighter.

Again, as I said >>98388962, read the book. I'm sick of you illiterate faggots being lying little subhumans to whine about popular thing. I'm going to continue correcting you, not because I have any love for WOTC (fuck them, fuck corpos in general) but because I cannot stand liars. If you're going to bitch about D&D, at least do so in a way that is factually correct, like how martials have no real way to keep up with casters in terms of damage (Casters get AoEs which means they will do more damage to multiple targets than a fighter can in one round, all the time), or the fact that by the 2014 rules the spells in both it and 2024 are unbalanced (the 2014 DMG contains a guideline for making spells. Multiple spells, most famously fireball, break these guidelines by doing too much damage for their level).

And if you're really still gonna shit yourself, use homebrew. WAHH NOOOO RAW HAS TO BE THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY shut the fuck up you literal petulant child, you have the tools to fix the problem you have. If you're REALLY going to be a little shitter I will link you my homebrew doc with all my shit in it and you can pester your GM (implying you have one) to let you use my revised Unarmed Fighting Style feat or Tavern Brawler Origin Feat which scale like monk, you utter crybaby, you useless sack of snot and whining.

>>98388485
Good luck with your homebrewing endeavors.
>I'm doing a combo system
Yeah, me as well. I use damage dice based on the weapon's size, and punches and kicks are on the lower spectrum. And Damage Reduction based on armor. So multiple hits from combos might end up doing diddly-nothing against someone in full plate, though you could pummel someone unarmored into submission. That's supposed to be the big trade-off here.
>>98388582
>The 40K RPGs ultimately also make unarmed combat a suboptimal way to play for similar reasons
I usually run and play WFRP and it's an issue here as well, for also being a more gritty and in some ways grounded setting. There are careers that start with unarmored combat as a skill that you need to raise, but nobody wants to do that when it's not required, especially since GMs rarely enforce that carrying around all of your bows and swords and halberds and axes would be forbidden (or seen as suspicious) in an urban environment.

>>98388986
>>98388962
Anon, every time someone talks about D&D on this board, they are either bitching/praising about 3.5e or 5e, when AD&D and 4e were wonderful for unarmed combat out of the book.
Too much 3.5 cocksucking for it's own good.

>>98388986
wowww one extra feat my power is failing oh what a world

>>98389130
One extra feat and you have to homebrew some magical brass knuckles to let them keep up with the other martials getting shiny new gear. Truly a horrific situation, I can't imagine having to do even a miniscule amount of work that people have also probably already done. D&D needs to be better and include rules for every possible scenario I can imagine.

>>98389205
I'm better off making my own homebrew than to houserule every part of D&D that is missing or doesn't fit the kind of game I want to play, and I'm not going to give D&D credit for the work I have to do to fix it.

>>98389225
Too bad you don't run or play any games, and lack the capacity to create anything because you're an always-online faggot.

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>>98387748
>Nooo my fists should negate thousands of years or development of cold weapons and armor
Delete monk and put a lvl8 gnoll barbarian with an axe against every retard trying to play unarmed.

>>98387748
>bare hands
>clearly wearing gloves
What did OP mean by this

>>98387748
>This is a failure of game design
Why?

>>98389225
Dude it's just a houserule to let magic enchantments also effect hand wraps and brass knuckles to let your unarmed types actually keep up long term. I can also nigh guarantee there's a page out there of someone who's already done all the work for unique enchantments for exactly this too.

The amount of work you're bitching about is actually miniscule.

>>98390167
>The amount of work you're bitching about is actually miniscule.
You got confused and began thinking that just because unarmed fighting is the topic, unarmed fighting is the only thing in D&D I'd have to fix in order to get the game I want.
This is not only some form of logical fallacy, but also dead wrong.

>>98390350
Cool, so why are you still here if you don't want to discuss the topic? Because it sounds like you just wanna bitch about D&D in general and 5e in particular when this issue goes beyond that as has been stated in the thread.

>>98387786
What argument? He didn't argue anything. If a game doesn't work the way you want it to, play a different game that does. "D&D" is not an important part of the sentence. The point of the sentence is.

>>98387785
Yes, we know D&D is bad, thanks for supporting our side of the discussion with examples.

>>98388404
No, not really. If you have 10d Martial Arts, you're equally as effective as someone with 10d in Strike - Sword. And you can use Martial Arts as your baseline for wielding weapons, just like you can with Strike. So they're exactly and perfectly balanced.

>>98387816
It's good, yeah.

>>98388563
Yeah, why did you design your game poorly instead of well?

>>98389205
Yes, of course. My game has rules for every possible scenario I can imagine, including such unfathomably rare and unlikely situations as "one guy punching another guy". So what's your game's excuse for being so bad?

>>98388962
dnd is such a terrible system.
it focuses so much on trying to be realistic, while at the same time being completely retarded and unrealistic.

>>98388962
Wow, look at all this dumb bullshit you have to use just to be good at punching, lol

>>98390646
Post the rules and I'll laugh at your feeble imagination

dumbfuck lol
http://gatorrules.wikidot.com/start

>>98390863
>can't even lift more than 100 tons
Your system is imagination moved by millions of children across the globe.

>>98390974
What do you mean? There's no limit to how high a character's Might can be. The trait cap can be arbitrarily high.

Still waiting on that laughter, bitch :)

>>98387776
Is that good for punches or bad for handguns?

>>98390987
Chart only goes up to 100 tons, why would I think it scales beyond that?

The whole point of being empty handed is because you're a monk. I can't fathom why a non-monk would forego weaponry. We monks are built different.

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>>98387748
A class should represent some unique way of interacting with the game's mechanics and should always be the best and have the absolute best options associated with it.

That being said, it should be something other classes can indulge in in a way that fits the nature of their class.

Apparently this is a concept to advanced for most people to comprehend.

>>98391523
not hardly.

>>98388962
DESU, Unarmed Fighting sucks as a style option.

>>98391554
Nope, it's just wrong.

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>>98391935
You are wrong.

Nope.

The monk in gaming is an idealized form of existence. It perfectly embodies the philosophical and practical principles of Zen and the martial arts.

The core of Zen is stripping away the superfluous to reach the essential. The fist is the ultimate expression of self-reliance. It is an extension of the body, a tool that requires no external gathering or manufacturing. A monk who is dedicated to rigorous self-mastery would find dependence on a large, complicated, and easily broken external weapon to be a distraction. The monk brings the weapon with them; they are the weapon. Relying on one's own, trained body is the most reliable (though still impermanent) asset in a chaotic world. This also forces a player right into the enemy's personal space. This is a terrifying place, but the monk must approach the inevitable suffering (the danger of the blow) with a composed mind, demonstrating mastery over fear and achieving a state of "oneness" with the opponent's movements.

Historically, Buddhist monks (especially those associated with Shaolin Chan/Zen) incorporated rigorous physical training into their spiritual practice. For the Zen-influenced warrior, the fight itself becomes a form of meditation. Every block, every punch, every dodge is a moment of pure awareness. The fist makes this literal, as the damage comes directly from the focused energy of the monk's body.

The fist is not a weapon of choice for the Zen monk; it is a weapon of necessity and principle. It forces the monk to be totally self-reliant, constantly in the moment, and to use their rigorous spiritual training as their best defense.

Not even close.

>>98390566
I'm just wondering what's so good about a role that you can only improve with feats at level 1, 4, and every four levels beyond that and that you need to beg daddy DM to houserule on top of that, that's all.
I know I personally can make what I want and what works for me, but I know that's not D&D doing the work, and I will never give it credit for something it doesn't do, and being able to make what I want doesn't change the fact that a role you need to beg to work and wait multiple levels to get to where you need it is terrible game design in a system with classes that are nigh-flawless from the get-go as written.

>>98388847
>So use any of the monk weapons which allow you to use the better of their damage or unarmed, plus have special qualities or deal alternate damage types and are cheaper to enchant than most stuff you'd apply to fists since those have to use the amulets for natural weapons and such
That's cool and those are options for monks.
The point of this thread is that unarmed options for other classes are often missing.

>>98387748
>This is a failure of game design
Yes. The whole hit points and AC scheme in 40K is completely broken.

However, should a human be anywhere near as capable at fucking up an orc with their bare hands as with a sword? Weapons are just better. Any kind of unarmed equality to weapons is inherently forced.

Play a superhero game or something if that's what you want.

>I don't want to pick options to specialize in doing something efficiently, I just want to do it
Turns out, OP just wants to play a non-RPG video game. Seek your desires there.

>>98387748
You are welcome to do 1 + str modifier damage on all of your attacks. There is no wrong to play D&D, after all.

>>98394179
>If you don't want your character to be a hyper-efficient specialist, you actually just want to play video games
The DnDogshitter, everyone.

>>98394179
Just the reverse, rather.

At least D&D HAS rules for it. It might have changed in newer editions, but in 4th ed Pendragon, by RAW grown adults had no idea how to punch or wrestle, though i will concede that in all the years I've owned it there may have been something I've missed. If you didn't have the appropriate weapon combat skill, you couldn't use that weapon, and Grapple was a separate combat skill that I can't recall any cultural group starting with; ergo...

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D&D is far from perfect, but this is one of the weakest complaints I've ever seen.
You faggots will complain about literally anything.
WOTC could pay you niggers a $50/week cash allowance for playing D&D, and you joyless cunts would find a way to complain about it.

>>98390779
Yeah, 2 1st level options. It takes so much setup for that.

>>98391412
Handguns still have range, it's just that in GURPS a fist fight between two average strength average skill people aiming to kill will be done in less than 3 full rounds, one round if someone aims for the head and rolls a 6 on the damage die (which is at a -1 when at 10 strength).

>>98387748
>complains DnD does a thing
>it doesn't do that thing
So who here plays games?

>>98397177
Yeah. Dumbfuck.

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>>98387762
sometimes, its more fun to put the point across in a more intimate manner.
Sometime, its because you like to feel the crack of bones personally rather than by proxy.
Sometimes its just because an old man has to be taught the lesson again

>>98397210
Do you also have a problem when
>praises D&D for doing a thing
>it doesn't do that thing

If not, you might want to readjust your thinking.

The problems with monk are:

They are barehanded fighters in a series that prioritizes wealth/loot for weapon improvements.
There's not enough for them to do to make them feel like technical fighters.
They are penalized for doing things that any other character can do.

The most a Monk ever felt like a Monk to me was playing a Vow of Poverty Swordsage loaded up with tons of Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel. It wasn't GOOD, but it felt like its own thing that couldn't be mistaken for a barehanded Barbarian build.

>>98397208
I wouldn't say average strength average skill though, keep in mind the average damage is something like two points there. Characters who have some strength and know a striking skill at a high enough level, however? Can be done in two rounds easy

>>98394179
It's not that hard to design a system where baseline combat competency isn't locked behind valuable-ass charbuilding investment. It's very much a D&D/PF-ism to have something as simple as tripping/disarming/punching be unusable outside of a specific class and/or feats.

Part of the issue really is D&D's obsession with itemized modifiers and having improvised actions/combat maneuvers take up the action economy cost of full attacks. The value balance is so lopsided there's no point in ever doing cool melee stuff if all of your shit doesn't play into making it the vastly more efficient option.

>>98397375
I just find it heartwarming how the mantra here is always "have you tried not playing DnD?" and OP took that to heart but also still complains about mechanics of DnD without knowing how the game works. It really makes you feel like you're part of a community or something you know? Or like a culture. Like in a petri dish.

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On one hand;
>if you want to use bare hands for combat, you need to play this specific class and deal with their very specific mechanics, among those artificially increasing your fist damage to be on par with weapons, instead of having their own unique advantages and disadvantages

Mechanically I'd argue alot of systems NEED to either put up some barricades or restrictions for no other reason than if they don't you are essentially negating the advantage of weapons if unarmed strikes are just as good with little to no restriction. There needs to be SOME opportunity cost.

On the other;

>Then you need to play a far-east mystic based on dumb 70s kung-fu movies.

This is a failing of your own imagination. South America, Asia, and the Middle East have all developed their own martial arts and wrestling styles. You can adapt the flavor of the mechanics as you see fit. (Though I will agree that alot of systems default to some sort of kungfu for any unarmed "class" or archetype.)

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>>98399140
>Mechanically I'd argue alot of systems NEED to either put up some barricades or restrictions for no other reason than if they don't you are essentially negating the advantage of weapons if unarmed strikes are just as good with little to no restriction. There needs to be SOME opportunity cost.

That would be the whole point in investing in that ability. Swinging a sword is one thing, learning how to send energy waves from your sword is something else entirely just like learning how to hadoken would be from just regular punching.

That is, as long as you don't do it like 3.5 where it takes 5 to 8 feats just to use a fireball that is several orders of magnitude weaker than a cantrip and costs twice as much character resources.

>>98399101
And I find it heartwarming how a bunch of faggots always try to defend D&D or falsely advertise it with things it doesn't do, because "how the game works" either isn't actually important to them or they don't know the rules.
Do you agree with this sentiment? If not, you might want to readjust your thinking.

>>98399440
I find it adorable that you see people going "have you tried reading the book you're complaining about? If you really don't like it no one cares if you change it." and you think that's defending DnD. Have you tried not being a little bitchbaby and just playing the games you want? You're the one who cares about dnd.

>>98387748
There's a reason they got rid of it in Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2e.

>>98399787
because they're incompetent, yes, we know.

>>98399140
No, there doesn't need to be any opportunity cost. Unarmed and armed be equally effective with equal investment, and there can still be unique benefits to each.

>>98399800
>directly addresses then issue OP has by making deadly hand combat a single feat anyone can take that actually gives multiple benefits related to weapon type, critical effects, etc.
>somehow this makes them incompetent
...I don't think they're the incompetent ones here.

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They should make grappling an actual type of proficiency instead of just a regular attack
And also have “unarmed combat” be a proficiency or skill chain that any class can spec into and it gives a damage boost but not so much that it gets on part with weapons, but in return more versatility

>>98399816
Thats not what I said though. My point was more that such an investment has to exist in some capacity, whether thats class restrictions, exp/skill point expentirure, etc.
Its funny because in the context of at least DND 5e, Monks Unarmed rapidly outpaces and is more consistent than most melee weapons sans a top-end two handed builded.

>>98398396
Someone with 10 ST and no advantages or skills that would affect damage does 1d-3 damage with a punch. Aiming for the head would be a -7, but you could make a telegraphed (+4) all-out attack (determined) (+4) to make the roll at +1 to hit with the penalty that the opponent has a +2 to defend against this attack (which in this scenario would make the effective dodge 10, making the chance to dodge a coin flip) and you'd lose active defenses at all on their turn. If you hit and do maximum damage (3), you'd deal 1 damage after the 2 natural DR the skull provides, with a 4x damage modifier for 4 damage to the brain. The opponent must then make a -10 HT roll to avoid knockdown and stunning (which would require a crit to succeed), and has a -4 to DX and IQ for the next round from shock. If they fail the roll by 5 or more (likely since they're at -10), they immediately drop unconscious, at which point you can just skill them by making a telegraphed all-out attack (strong) (which has +2 damage making the chance to deal at least 4 damage a coin toss and rolling max damage means your opponent is rolling a death save at the beginning of their turn) to cave in their skull in the second round.
Ideally, both fighters are using all-out defense and are trying to tease out an all-out attack that misses so that they can destroy the opponent with a telegraphed all-out attack in response. There's also stuff like Committed Attacks, Feints, Evaluate, etc, but this is usually how combats would go.

>>98399827
noticing a pattern with the OP here. They're insistent on the problem, do not like solutions, do not like explanations about how it's actually not true, do not like people pointing out it doesn't exist in most versions of DnD actually... They need this exact problem to exist in the way they described so they can be mad about it.

>>98387748
Have you tried not playing D&D?

>>98399827
Yeah, I'm not surprised. LOL

>>98400318
Or you could just design the game elegantly instead of like shit.

>>98401240
What is "elegantly" for you?
Not even that anon, but the versatility part is right. Hands shouldn't do as much damage as swords, but offer something else. Combo attacks, twisting and breaking limbs, disarm, shoves, knock downs, trips (and not just the basic trip, but something more impactful and purposeful), all manners of manipulation instead of raw damage is something that could set unarmed combat apart from weapons, without going into "you do magic chi-punches".

>>98401284
Did I say it shouldn't be versatile?
Why is everyone on this board illiterate?

>>98401332
Since you didn't specify what points exactly in that post you disagreed with, it will look like you disagree with the post entirely.
Nobody here can read your mind.
Explain what you mean with "elegantly".

>>98401350
Sure, I guess that's what you would think if you didn't know how to fucking read. Try attending first grade and then come back.

>>98401356
Will you explain it or will you just be a little faggot?

If you were capable of understanding, you wouldn't need it explained. It's all right there in the post, if you would actually read it. No further replies until you show that you are worthy of my attention.

Bad actor confirmed.

Yeah, you.

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>>98397808
>They are barehanded fighters in a series that prioritizes wealth/loot for weapon improvements.

This is the problem in a nutshell.

Designers are mortally afraid of classes that escape itemization. Game design centers around itemization in most cases. It's not just a question of what to give the monk, but selection of loot is also the DM/s secret lasso for game play. If you need people to be stronger, give them stronger weapons. If you need them to be weaker, be tight with drops. If they need a specific solution no one has, they happen to find the thing they need in a garbage pile.

The monk is not just hard to make stronger through this. He's impossible to make WEAKER. That later part is what scares designers. What do you do about the monk?

Or characters could just get the powers they need to function from their class features, whether they come from weapons or any other source.

Monk kung fu wuxia shenanigans =/= regular punching and fisticuffs
It's a punch wizard, you're not thinking in fantasy terms

>>98399616
I find it adorable how you keep refusing to take accountability for, or even acknowledge, your inconsistent standards.

>>98387748
try fisting a beholder you moron

>>98401740
Then why have a class with an advertised focus on unarmed combat?

>>98390640
Not being able to punch through armored monsters is logical design actually

>>98402447
Then why have a class with an advertised focus on unarmed combat?

>>98387748
Just take the fucking unarmed fighting style, retard

>>98404319
Because it's something a player might want to do, obviously. More to the point, why have classes?

>>98404505
Logical doesn't mean good, sadly.

>>98387748
>if you want to use bare hands for combat, you need to play this specific class...
No I don't; I tie unarmed martial arts to race.

...and deal with their very specific mechanics, among those artificially increasing your fist damage to be on par with weapons
No I don't, strike damage scales with hero strength and the quality of the associated feature, representing various aspects of strength training and refining technique as a natural consequence of frequent use.

>instead of having their own unique advantages and disadvantages
But they do.
Low reflex penalty and low wait time allow costed skills more uses per turn and out of turn, and follow-ups/repeat chance enables potential free barrages of strikes. Zoning effects have a higher chance to occur allowing slight battlefield control and pursuits chase any zoned target for some extra wait time.
But all these chance effects may still fail, grapples may be escaped from, and all unarmed strikes are punished by spiky foes.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>This is a failure of game design and an awful sacred D&D cow.
I haven't used D&D for years, because I don't get the kind of game I want from it.

>It makes no sense that you can pick up whatever weapon type for whatever class, unless you want to kick someone in the gut. Then you need to play a far-east mystic based on dumb 70s kung-fu movies.
I don't need to do that.
I can make a cat-girl hero who can become a whirlwind of claws and death to build up her rage, which she then may spend to hammer on spiked enemies with a great cleaver, or spend any stars gained from injuring her targets to produce magic from her mantle.
I've never seen any kung-fu movie featuring a character like that; in fact, a lot of media likes to erroneously separate magical power from heavy weapons.

But you'll just ignore the point and cry about video games, so fuck it.

>>98397240
>>98390779
>NOOO I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO INFINITY BILLINON DAMAGE LIKE LE EPIC ONE PUNCH MAN AT LEVEL 1
I hate faggots like you

Who are you quoting?

Well?

Well?

Liking women is gay

>>98387748
>plays class-based game
>mad that classes have specific class features
The kicker is that even in D&D all of the less-shit editions have subclasses/archetypes/etc. to do unarmed combat with pretty much any class, or just lets you ask the damn GM.

>>98387748
Monks are fun and female monks are cute. Deal with it.

>>98404319
That's not the only focus of the class. It also has unarmored defense and walking on walls.

>>98396711
You'd have to pay me a lot more than $50 a week.

>>98388582
It's an issue in the 40k RPGs if you aren't actually specializing into it smartly or the GM is for some reason forbidding stuff from the other systems to even show up (like Dark Heresy stuff showing up in Rogue Trader).

My favorite and longest running character in a 40k RPG was essentially if Frank Horrigan was in the AdMech. Even only a little bit after the beginning of Rogue Trader campaign I punched a renegade Ogryn hard enough to pop his head off and towards the very end I actually grappled a Keeper of Secrets and won long enough (like 2 rounds) for everyone to put it down. Just be smart and read enough in the books and you can see how easy it really is to bring Unarmed Combat up enough to do some crazy shit.

>>98405083
Who are you quoting?

>>98400593
In a duel sort of situation your scenario would instantly be thwarted by the defender choosing to retreat
I'm not saying it's impossible for your scenario to happen, I'm just saying nobody would actually play it like that. Especially if you don't use MA and don't have Telegraphic Attack.

>>98387874
AD&D 1e had amazing unarmed combat rules with Oriental Adventures.
2e had like 5 different unarmed combat rules and they're very hit or miss.

>>98410061
Without the telegraphic attack, it'd be a -3 to hit (which is a roughly 16% chance to hit with a DX of 10). In that scenario, using evaluate 3 turns in a row to build up a +3 bonus (taking the roll to hit someone in the head to +0 when using all-out attack (determined)) would be the smart option, but they'd need to use that step of movement to position themselves in a way that prevents the opponent from running away.
There's also the Feint maneuver, but at that point you're relying on pure luck to try and lower an opponent's defense, and if you succeed they can just run away, the feint being wasted.
A use of the Wait Maneuver might be another good option, if they walk to a place where there's a hazard behind them, you could use a wait-delayed shove to kill them, such as pushing them down some stairs or out a window.

>ignore the point
Yup, just as expected.

>>98405083
Who are you quoting?

>>98390640
Despite what Martial arts movies will tell you, punching is NEVER as good as a weapon. And if we're using the logic of 'well it's a fantasy world' why not just apply the same kind of technique to whatever your preferred weapon is?

Actually, it is as good as a weapon, if you design the game in such a way that it is. How good any particular game option is, is a game design decision. And since we have free will, we can decide however we wish.

>>98410392
Feint is bad but it's not bad because they can get out of range, it's bad because your enemy gets an Attack for free without the chance of suffering from shock penalties. Evaluate kind of sucks too because the enemy can just punch you every turn you're doing it

>>98411283
If you're going turtle mode, the best option might be to get in real close, use All-Out Defense (Increased Dodge) to get half movement instead of a step, and then step into an opponent's blind spot. If they choose an action with only one step and they only turn 60 degrees, you might get to start the turn in their blind spot, but this can be avoided by just turning around 180 degrees every time someone walks into your blind spot.

>>98411102
Because kung fu is cool and also >>98391985

>>98411315
You would have to have a really fast character for this to even work or you'd have to evade him successfully (which is hard as shit). We had to houserule that sidesteps are just 1 movement point because otherwise movement on a hex map would get arbitrarily slower in certain directions and even with that houserule a Move 6 character would just barely be able to make a run-around attack on half Move

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>>98387748
>artificially increasing your fist damage to be on par with weapons
What if they increase but aren't on par with weapons if you pick the right level ups?

>>98412121
OP doesn't accept exceptions to his whining.

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There has to be some kind of balancing for the fact that an unarmed combat specialist character is always at 100% of his combat potential without the need to purchase or maintain any gear.

If you make punching things as effective as using weapons you are effectively nerfing the use of weapons, you are actively making the experience of everyone who uses weapons inferior in order to please one small subset of the audience.

No, not at all.

>>98387748
Here's a thing. Fighter hss vorpal sword. Paladin has holy avenger. There are no vorpal fists or holy avenging fists. Monk is good in "no magickal items" setting. Elsewhere you're somewhere between fifth wheel and outright liability.

>>98413060
>Fighter hss vorpal sword.
Which class feature gives fighters that weapon?

>>98411843
Taking an All-Out Defense (Increased Dodge) specifically gives you half movement and not a step, in the base rules no less. People just often forget it's even a thing.

>>98413385
Yes but typical half Move is something like Move 3 or even 2 if encumbered. You spend two points getting into the guy's side hex (assuming you started at reach C) because you can't really easily end up in his back hex. Now you can no longer choose your facing freely so you will end up just barely facing him from a side hex. You could actually be better off with a Step.

>>98387762
>y tho
The FIST is mankind's greatest weapon, unchallenged for over eight million years

>>98413060
Which class feature gives fighters that weapon?

>>98390616
/thread.

>>98413428
Every time you make a movement, you can freely change your facing, which sounds dumb but is true. I think the only time this doesn't apply is when you're able to accelerate to faster than your move, in which case you need to spend turns decelerating in order to actually stop.
Anyway, it might be better for the opponents to be kicking, which gives 1 reach. They'd have to save it for a turn where the opponent can't see them though, as missing a kick requires a DX roll where failing causes you to fall over.

>>98413097
>>98413516
Feature of dealing damage and grabbing loot.

None, got it.

>>98415137
"Grabbing loot" isn't a class feature, and all classes can deal damage; especially spellcasters who have guaranteed access to all damage types through the spells available through their class.

>>98414619
>Every time you make a movement, you can freely change your facing
Only if you used half your movement points or less though, and AoA maneuvers don't allow facing changes

Rolled 11, 11, 30, 26, 38 + 23 = 139 (5d42 + 23)

>>98396711
give me more

>>98387786
D&D needs to get with the times and make wizards that throw hands like Gojo.
It genuinely makes zero sense that a wizard couldnt use magic amplified hand to hand combat, a very simple example would be fire fists.

>>98387786
Not rare, no need to make your own game.

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>>98387748
>if you want to use rage in combat, you have to play this specific class
>if you want to use music in combat, you have to play this specific class
>if you want to be able to smite in combat, you have to play this specific class
>if you want to be able to sneak attack, you have to play this specific class
>if you want to have buffing auras, you have to play this specific class
>if you want to have invocations, you have to play this specific class
How about you play something else than DND. Your problem will automatically go away.

You can use unarmed attacks with any class of your choice. They're just going to suck because D&D still pays some lip service to this thing called verisimilitude.

>>98388440
>That's not the problem, these games have superhuman heroes performing superhuman feats. Don't appeal to realism, you will have so much more to complain about. It's about the powerfantasy.
Even if you're a superhuman performing superhuman feats, stabbing someone is still going to be more effective than punching them.

>>98416839
yeah, it's bad, we know.

>>98416848
Not if the game isn't designed that way.

>>98416848
>stabbing someone is still going to be more effective than punching them
Not always. Unless you stab someone in the throat, it takes a while to bleed out from stab wounds. A knockout punch (or liver shot) can incapacitate immediately, then you just stomp on their unconscious head.

t. Prison viiolence afficianado

>>98387748
Unarmed in D&D is kind of like the role pikemen filled during the musket age: they're there to deter the DM from attempting to seize all the party's weapons because he knows the monk will counter his cliche ploy, even if it means the party has slightly less damage total versus another weapon user.

>>98387748
Go play the D6 star wars RPG. It has an entire subsystem for martial arts. That should tickle your autism just fine.

>>98416839
So what, every character should be equally good at everything all the time?

>>98412721
This does not matter. It is very rare for parties, at least in D&D and adjacent games, to be without armor and weapons. It usually happens for a bit or a single sub-plot. Even in that scenario, the party usually finds sub-par equipment in the interim; and more importantly the casters still usually have a lot of spells they can use without components or focuses or whatever. What a monk really is is immunity to being disarmed. That's it. Its a feature so niche it might as well be a ribbon, which is why its so peculiar that its treated as something hard to balance. As for the loot problem, for D&D the solution is to just have unarmed not mean unequipped and use ki focuses or fist wraps so you're still in the lood treadmill.

>>98416764
Pretty sure OP's problem is a little deeper than the system he uses to mold his bad opinions.

>>98412721
You'd almost have a point if the only thing weapons offered is damage. However, that's not the case even in D&D. As of 2024, Weapons have Mastery Properties which give new ways to use those weapons should you have chosen the Mastery Property with that Weapon be it via a Class Feature or a Feat. Unarmed Strikes have no Mastery Property, so that's your tradeoff in 2024 at least.

Though, as has been pointed out, the situation you're describing where the characters lose ALL their gear is an extremely niche situation, and again unless your system of choice ONLY gives bonus damage with weapons then it's a non-issue.

You're also forgetting TTRPGs are cooperative games. You're looking at it competitively; the Monk is always at 100%, which makes the other players weak by your measure. When you look at it from a cooperative perspective, the party now has someone present who can help them fight to their confiscated gear and get it back far easier than having to sneak around or fight with whatever is on hand.