I want to run a LotR campaign where the players are surviving remnants of the "evil" coalition - orcs, isengarder uruk-hai, easterlings, etc - after the War of the Ring. It's not going to be canon - I'm probably going to have to invent a lot about the way the orcs are, what they do when they are not warring, and what customs they have, and how they are spawned.The problem is that I only know one way to write a LotR story about the orcs, and that one is basically commie revisionism - orcs and Melkor are read as technocratic, modernist-hubris communists, and the elves and men are "backwards conservatives". This was a very popular interpretation of Tolkien where I was born, and I don't like it a lot, it seems very ideological, most players won't be on board with it, and I don't find writing propaganda interesting.So, how do I write orcs and their culture and society to NOT make them commies, but also with free will and things to do and ambitions?
>>98389202Why would you put "evil" in quotes when describing Sauron's forces?
>>98389627Because obviously if I want to let players play them, I cannot railroad PC motivations into "I want to do evil immoral shit and serve the dark lord". It doesn't make for interesting main characters, or for that matter, it doesn't make for main characters that are playable by human roleplayers, because no human just hates and hates and hates and that is the only thing they ever feel.So I will have to "de-evilize" the orcs. I don't think it will require making them less violent or something like that, Genghis Khan was perfectly capable of massacring and conquering tons of people without being some sort of inhuman monster.But it will require abandoning Tolkien's metaphysics where objective good and evil exist and orcs are just irredeemably evil monsters. That's why I said it will depart from canon.
>>98389202maybe after the one ring is destroyed the orcs gain a semblance of humanity thanks to Eru Ilúvatar taking pity on them. But they're still hated and hunted throughout the world.
You'll have better luck having players be Easterlings or Dunlendings. If you throw out the cosmology of Tolkien, you lose quite a lot.
>>98390004>But it will require abandoning Tolkien's metaphysicsThen why call it a LotR campaign?Regardless, your usage was describing the force as a whole, not the individual characters. Some of the soldiers being non-evil doesn't make the army non-evil. Never mind that you could have them play Easterlings, who are no more inherently evil than other humans.
>>98390004You don't need to railroad people into doing evil shit.Incentivise it and it happens naturally.
>>98390004>I cannot railroad PC motivationsYou can, and you should in this setting. Tolkien orcs are not victims of culture or circumstance. They are built evil, by evil, for evil. There are no shades of gray in Mordor. If you want them, then play a different setting or make your own.
>>98389202Cyka blyat mishka
>>98389202>So, how do I write orcs and their culture and society to NOT make them commies, but also with free will and things to do and ambitions?They'd be WW1 Soldiers returning to their homeland to find it taken over by previouslj enslaved Humans (thanks Strider!) but also.. leas shitty because Sauron's influence is gone. So Mordor's still kind of fucked but not as proper fucked as it once was.Course. It's their homeland so there's going to be clashes with the new would be-landlords and their Gondorian allies. Frodo specifically forbade killing of Peisoners so they may also be former internees in the Shire, trying to make a life in a much less harsh place sirrounded by people who remember them as enemies.
Might be worth checking out the Shadow of Mordor vidya and the sequel. I thought they handled the orcs pretty good, though not everyone was on board with the liberties they took.One interesting tidbit that sadly never goes anywhere is a journal entry you can find from an orc who claims he's found some evidence that orcs being mutant elves created by Sauron or Morgoth or whoever was Dark Lord at the time might be propaganda and that they're actually a naturally evolved hominid species who were the ancestors of humans. This probably isn't true given that nothing else in the story really contradicts the cosmology laid out in The Silmarillion and other writings by Tolkien, but it might make an interesting plot hook. Maybe with Sauron gone some charismatic orc warlord starts rallying his people around the idea that they're the "true form" of humanoid life and should take back the world for themselves.
Why not frame it as a post-apocalyptic story? The old order has been upended. Your entire world has fallen away. What crumbling infrastructure remains is being looted as we speak. There's nobody coming to help. Maybe find a ruin to hold up in and catch your breath. Maybe the great eagles made a pact with the leave-behind force of elves to hunt you all down. Or even live long enough to become something more.
>>98389202I never heard of the orcs being anything but basically raiders who unless someone controlling them. Even then, they weren't advance but could make crude weapons and armor for war and all. The basically need a slave race to maintain their people or at least groups to raid and steal from
It's been a while since I've read the books, so maybe this is a dumb question, but do orcs know Sauron's magic is influencing them? Would post-LOTR orcs be like Best Friend Tabitha's gang in Fallout New Vegas, where they feel lonely and purposeless after they stop hearing the big bad guy's voice in their heads?
>>98389202The coalition that Sauron brought together was composed of different societies, that were under the domineering thumb of Sauron. Sauron and Saruman, both former followers of Aulë, have turned their desire and skills of craftsmanship into relentless industrialization and the domination of both flora & fauna. Peter Jackson's TTT, where it shows Isengard, encapsulated it change well. And if you've ever seen the Total Warhammer 3's trailer of the Chaos Dwarfs you'd see a similar end result of what sort of rule Sauron would have wrought.Now suddenly take these two tyrants out of the scene and what are you left with?The Orcs, the bulk of Sauron's labour and military capabilities, swiftly regress into tribalism and savage plays for petty power, and may cowardly flee from the Western Men into the deep mountains and such; the Haradrim would not linger in Mordor and would soon return to their eastern homelands; the Black Númenóreans would quickly return to their lands in Umbar and fight a loosing war against the Reunited Kingdom; and lastly the dark and fell creatures will return to their instinctive, animal-like, ways.
>>98393742You are literally wrong. Tolkien's orcs are scared of, and hate, Melkor and then Sauron. They're vicious and callous, but at least part of it is directly stated to be a result of their circumstances. Note how they become confused and helpless when Sauron is defeated—his will literally drives them in the stories.In fact, Tolkien also struggled with depicting his orcs post-Sauron. It's one of several reasons that he abandoned the LotR sequel he was working on. >>98390004>>98390159>>98398268>Even then, they weren't advance but could make crude weapons and armor for war and all.Orcs are stated in The Hobbit to be the inventor of gunpowder. In general, they represent technological advancement without consideration for beauty or nature. That theme was kind of transferred to Saruman in LotR, but he always used orcs to do his work for a reason. They ultimately had a lot in common.
>>98389202Going to depend on the period you set it, but if post war then its worth looking at the Ciruth Ungol chapters where an orc mentions taking a few lads and getting far away from it all, I believe Shagrat.In the years after the battle of the last alliance and before the war of the ring they had tribes and their own culture. Nothing says they cant return to that, but no doubt they would be hunted by the men of the west and other survivors, could be a theme to lean into.
>>98399484Tolkien specifically didn't want humans and elves to "hunt down" all remaining orcs. It's more likely that Mordor remains dangerous to enter, but under watch at all known points of entry/exit. The Misty Mountains remain dangerous to cross, because their orc population is surprisingly high. Uruk-hai, on the other hand, were already hunted down by Rohirrim and trees.
>>98389202>basically commie revisionism - orcs and Melkor are read as technocratic, modernist-hubris communists, and the elves and men are "backwards conservatives". This was a very popular interpretation of Tolkien where I was bornhow did you manage to access 4chan from Russia, anon ? I thought all VPNs were banned
>>98399438>Note how they become confused and helpless when Sauron is defeated—his will literally drives them in the stories.You have gravely misunderstood. Sauron cruelly whips the orcs into unity to create an army, but they are not gentle, harmless creatures without him. Their evil nature is just that: without external force to coerce them, they are little more than mindless, selfish, cowardly rabble who slaughter each other and are incapable of building anything of note. Melkor created them to be this way. Orcs are flawed creations lacking souls of their own, just like all of Melkor's monsters (and just like every other attempt to create life without Eru's assistance).
>>98400648>Orcs are flawed creations lacking souls of their own, just like all of Melkor's monsters (and just like every other attempt to create life without Eru's assistance).Creatures created without Eru's assistance have no drive at all. They just sit there unless puppeteered. Aulë knew Eru had given souls to the dwarves because they suddenly had an awareness and sense of self-preservation.Orcs cannot be soulless, because they act without Sauron guiding them. But it's also the case that he has influence over them. Frankly, Tolkien could never get it straight either, which is why there's no actual canonical explanation on the origin of orcs. So it's kind of a philosophical debate and not something that can be resolved.
>>98399690Should specify less hunt down and more avoid. If a village has a bunch of rando orcs rock up right after the war of the ring they likely wont be too happy.Good opportunity to enter towns disguised to get food or scout things out. If the GM wants to go for the more 'not evil' thing then also mutual agreements with individuals and so on. Gives a roleplay opportunity in the vein of a campaign about escaped convicts.
>>98389202When I was a teenager I liked Stan Nicholls Orcs books that have a lot in common with this. Its just a random band of them trying to survive after being forced to desert from the "Dark Lord", not really about an overall political situation, not after some big war where the bad guys lost, but its a fun portrayal where they are pretty harsh and aggressive, but not to the point that psychologically they're not really just a harsh and aggressive human culture
>>98400785>Creatures created without Eru's assistance have no drive at all.Not unless they're given drive by someone else imparting a piece of their soul and power, IE Melkor, who used this technique to create the dragons and (ostensibly) the orcs as well. >Frankly, Tolkien could never get it straight either, which is why there's no actual canonical explanation on the origin of orcs. So it's kind of a philosophical debate and not something that can be resolved.Tolkein's original explanation (that Melkor created them as wicked minions) made plenty of sense. Him deciding later that they were corrupted elves is what introduced the real philosophical problem because that suggests it's possible to reduce something with a soul into a being that is so devoid of free will that it is nothing but a slave to its own base impulses and lacks any capacity for goodness in its heart.
>>98389202>how do i write orcs>writeFRUSTRATED AUTHOR ALERT! WHOOAAAA BUDDDY!HE'S TALENTLESS!HE'S A HACK!HE ISN'T A GOOD GAME MASTER! DINGALINGALINGALING
>>98393742>Tolkien Orks are pure evilThis is a peak midwit Tolkien nerd opinion.I don't even know how you would believe this just reading the book. Most Orks are stupid thugs, but not in a way where they come across as inhuman.
>>98404811>Most Orks are stupid thugs, but not in a way where they come across as inhuman.I am very concerned about your personal definition of human considering orcs spend most of the books hissing and screeching at any hint of sunlight like vampires, salivating at different ways they can cook and eat prisoners, and are shown to be incapable of forming any kinship or friendship bonds within their own groups, as if they have no social urges except to terrorize their rivals with threats of violence. At best you could argue that a few human cultures engage in ritual cannibalism as a form of worship in their given religion, but human meat is definitely not something humans crave by biological impulse. Orcs are definitely not mere thugs but something more elementally evil than the other mortal races of Middle Earth. We see what Sauron-serving thugs are like with the Easterlings and other factions he's subjugated.
>>98390004Have you ever met players?
>>98404845>considering orcs spend most of the books hissing and screechingWhat? The amount of time they are shown doing that can be counted on one hand. Also, Nocturnal animals exist yet nobody is claiming the owl monkeys is pure evil.>salivating at different ways they can cook and eat prisonersAlmost entirely a movie thing. Hell, Orks in the books are straight up mentioned as not being willing to eat their own. Yeah, eating other sapient is a dick move but the fact they have that morale line is already pretty noticeable in it's own right. >nd are shown to be incapable of forming any kinship or friendship bonds within their own groupWhen? Most of their interactions paint them as stupid thugs. Assuming that means they are fundamentally unable to form friendship is silly. That's not even getting into the goblins of the Hobbit, who clearly do seem to have some degree of understanding of bonds. due to wanting to avenge their family. >as if they have no social urges except to terrorize their rivals with threats of violence.Literally never even implied. This isn't 40K, anon.>At best you could argue that a few human cultures engage in ritual cannibalism as a form of worship in their given religionWhat the fuck do you mean "Ritual cannibalism"? They aren't human. I'm not advocating in favor of them eating humans, but calling it cannibalism is dumb. >but human meat is definitely not something humans crave by biological impulseEven if we assume they are biologically hardwired to find Humans delicious, which is at best only VERY vaguely implied. That doesn't mean they are inherently evil. >Orcs are definitely not mere thugs but something more elementally evil than the other mortal racesNo? They really do just come across as mere thugs. >We see what Sauron-serving thugs are like with the Easterlings and other factions he's subjugated.Human factions.
>>98390004>>98400785>>98400648Tolkien did solve the issue of the orcs.They were beasts, animals, that Melkor didn't create but he deformed them through torture into the orcs. So they aren't mere puppets but they also don't have a soul and thus are unable to choose between good and evil, instead just following their nature, which thanks to Melkor has been corrupted beyond repair.The best way to describe the orcs are as mindlessly evil, helpless victims. The only way to "save" them is by exterminating them, which is what Aragorn and his son do after the War of the Ring.
>>98404894>What? The amount of time they are shown doing that can be counted on one hand.What are you even talking about? The goblin aversion to sunlight is so paramount in their characterization and the story itself that it is the reason why they infest caverns, frequently war with dwarves over said caverns, and why an entire half-man, half-orc race had to be bred to overcome that weakness. This isn't just a minor little detail thrown in for laughs, it's one of the most important facets of Tolkien orcs.>Almost entirely a movie thing. It is not just a movie thing. Orcs eating their prisoners is such a common occurrence that the Fellowship suspects this is what will happen to Merry and Pippin if they are not rescued in time.>When? When every single interaction between orcs is hostile and built upon expressions of strength and sadism rather than camaraderie or kinship. Even the jokes they share are inherently mean-spirited; they cannot process such a thing as humor without it being at someone else's expense.>That's not even getting into the goblins of the Hobbit wanting to avenge their family. "Family" is a big stretch. The Goblin King was not exactly a beloved family member, he was a cruel tyrant and their desire for vengeance was clearly driven more by tribalistic hatred towards Gandalf and the dwarves than out of sympathy for their fallen master. >calling it cannibalism is dumb. It is portrayed as abhorrent by Tolkien for a reason, anon. It is definitely cannibalism, regardless of what race of mortals is eating which. >That doesn't mean they are inherently evil. It is used as a measuring stick of their evil, yes, it does. Tolkien did not insert that detail for idiots 100 years later to play semantics and argue 'well they're just built like that, being inherently predisoposed towards evil doesn't make them evil' when he wrote flat out that they were built FOR EVIL. >No? They really do just come across as mere thugs. Only to idiots.
>>98404972>The goblin aversion to sunlight is so paramount in their characterization and the story itself that it is the reason why they infest cavernsIt's not a major part of their screentime, anon.>This isn't just a minor little detail thrown in for laughs, it's one of the most important facets of Tolkien orcs.1: You make it sound like they are constantly seething about sunlight, they aren't. At worst they just come across as nocturnal. >It is not just a movie thing.Which part of "ALMOST entirely" did you struggle to understand.>When every single interactionAll six of them? Even then it's pretty debatable if it applies to most of them.>"Family" is a big stretch.It really isn't.>Guy wants to avenge his slain fatherIs very straightforward. >It is portrayed as abhorrent by Tolkien for a reasonBecause the story is from the perspective of humans? Again, I'm not going to pretend it's a good thing but it's silly to argue it's cannibalism. A act we are literally shown Orcs as not doing.>It is definitely cannibalismLook up what words mean. Tolkien did, considering his English was impeccable. >It is used as a measuring stick of their evilIt's not. The most frequent measuring stick of their evil is their generally cowardly nature. They are bullies, which is right in line with their behavior being that of a simple thug not some kind of elemental evil. >Tolkien did not insert that detail for idiots 100 years later to play semantics and argue 'well they're just built like that,He threw it in mostly to show that Saruman is really fucking evil, actually. While it certainly reflects poorly on the Orks, assuming "They are fundamentally evil" is nonsense. That's not even getting into the fact that Uruk Hai aren't even normal Orks. >Only to idiots.To normal people. Like, we literally see actual portrayal of straight up elemental evil in the form of Sauron, the Ringwraiths, and the Ring itself. By comparison the orks are largely just stupid thugs.
>>98405101>It's not a major part of their screentime, anon.Oh it's *only* one of the most defining characteristics of their species! Clearly that means it's irrelevant and informs us nothing of their behavior!>You make it sound like they are constantly seething about sunlight, they aren't.They refuse to travel overland at day unless the sun is blocked by thick clouds, such as those perpetually covering Mordor. When they do get exposed to sunlight, they scream in anguish. I'd say that counts as perpetually seething about sunlight.>Which part of "ALMOST entirely" did you struggle to understand.If you recognize it's also talked about in the books, why even bring up the films? Are you just wasting my time?>All six of them?Every single interaction. >It really isn't.It really is. He wasn't their family, he was their king.>Is very straightforward. Precisely. You are straightforwardly wrong.>Because the story is from the perspective of humans?I would find it hilarious if you wanted to argue that other races in LotR don't consider it a terrible thing as well, or that Tolkien's authorial intent is irrelevant to the setting he created.>Look up what words mean. Tolkien did, considering his English was impeccable.Like I said before, semantics don't really help your argument. You can call it whatever you want, but Tolkien never deliberated over the morality for orcs to eat sapient mortal prisoners of any particular race. It was depicted as an abominable act regardless. Because it's obviously immoral and cruel, duh.>It's not. The most frequent measuring stick of their evil is their generally cowardly nature. Good thing I said "a measuring stick" rather than "the only." There are many signs Tolkien gives us as to the horrible nature of the orcs.
>>98405101>assuming "They are fundamentally evil" is nonsense. This is turning into actual schizophrenia, holy shit. That is *precisely* what Tolkien has said, both in the books and in his letters afterwards. The only part he wasn't sure about was "why" they are fundamentally evil. There's no room for argument, they're just evil. This isn't even supposed to be difficult to understand; Tolkien assumed people could understand the concept of supernatural evil monsters. Do you also debate whether the dragons were evil? Do you sympathize with the balrogs?>That's not even getting into the fact that Uruk Hai aren't even normal Orks. What exactly is your point? It was the orcs that wanted to eat them. The Uruk-Hai were more disciplined and only cared about fulfilling their orders to carry them on to Isengard instead.>To normal people.You're trying way too hard to make it seem like literal monsters fashioned and twisted by Morgoth's hand to be evil minions are actually just mean dudes, like the average bully in a high school. We see actual mean jerks and brutes in several occasions, orcs are a far more sinister presence. >Like, we literally see actual portrayal of straight up elemental evil in the form of Sauron, the Ringwraiths, and the Ring itself. By comparison the orks are largely just stupid thugs.They are all extensions of the same evil, that of Morgoth. They are outright supernaturally evil creatures, which is why they hate the sun and crave human flesh. They are stupid, and they are brutish, but you have to deliberately ignore the books (and the films) to mistake them for 'just jerks' when fundamentally they have no drives which are not malicious.
>>98405624>Oh it's *only* one of the most defining characteristics of their species! It isn't: >spend most of the books hissing and screeching at any hint of sunlight like vampires, You disingenuous liar.>I'd say that counts as perpetually seething about sunlight.No? Do you think a fox spends it's day seething about sunlight.>why even bring up the films?Because the movies exaggerated that (Mostly because the guy that directed it was also a horror movie director) and you seem like the type that only saw the movies.>Every single interaction.Yes, all six of them.> He wasn't their family, he was their king.Azog? He literally WAS family.>would find it hilarious if you wanted to argue that other races in LotR don't consider it a terrible thing as wellI'm pointing out they aren't human and it's silly to pretend them eating humans is 100% proof of them being irredeemably evil. >Like I said before, semantics They literally draw attention to the fact that Orcs don't eat other Orcs. You are ignoring the nuance in your writing. >Good thing I said "a measuring stick" rather than "the only."Again, their main measuring stick is cowardice. Eating humans is bad, but Golem also does it and the story doesn't portray him as totally irredeemably evil.
>>98405642>The only part he wasn't sure about was "why" they are fundamentally evil.When did he say they were fundamentally evil? You are pulling this shit out of thin air because of later works based on Tolkien flanderized Orks into being completely one note mindless mooks. >Tolkien assumed people could understand the concept of supernatural evil monstersAnon, he had depictions of supernaturally evil monsters. Nazguls exist, Balrogs exist, Sauron exists. Orcs are none of those things. They aren't even in the same ballpark. >Do you sympathize with the balrogs?Balrogs are mindless blobs of evil. Them, as well as Nazguls, largely exist to show how seriously the story has gotten. We've moved past the villains of the hobbit (Petty bullies with old grudges, Arrogant dragons, overly vocal spiders and trolls) into the realm of pure evil. > Do you also debate whether the dragons were evil?Smaug is given plenty of charisma, but the story still largely goes of it's way to show how unpleasant and arrogant he really is. He more than crosses the line from "petty bully" to "Straight up sociopath", and even then there is still a clear difference between him and the evil portrayed in LOTR. >They are all extensions of the same evil, that of Morgoth.Anon, all evil is a extension of Morgoth because of how the universe works. That's as true for Boromir trying to steal the ring as it is for Sauron trying to take over the world. We literally don't even have a 100% definitive explanation for where Orks come from. >which is why they hate the sun and crave human flesh.Did Morgoth create Lions as well? Or any other nocturnal hunter that sometimes eats humans? > them for 'just jerks' when fundamentally they have no drives which are not malicious.Again, we literally have one of them be driven by wanting to avenge a family member. And their main drive above all is "fear" and "Self preservation". Which certainly isn't all that heroic, but it's hardly malicious.
>>98390004>if I want to let players play them, I cannot railroad PC motivations into "I want to do evil immoral shit and serve the dark lord".You can absolutely do that. That is when the most interesting gameplay emerges. What a retarded thing to say.
>>98405726Ohhh my gooooood you're such a retard. I'm not even the anon you're arguing with but dude, the WHOLE point of orcs, in Tolkien's world, the ENTIRE REASON for their existence and the only thing they serve to the plot is the fact that they are completely, utterly, undisputably and IRREDEEMABLY evil.They only exist for you to despise and pity them. An orc will never even get close to being morally gray nor have any motivation beyond serving the dark lord or killing to survive. Also why the fuck would you try to look for moral complexity in the one place it doesn't exist? There are plenty of morally complex evil characters and groups of interest in the world of Tolkien. It's like trying to make Nazis look morally complex when you have every other nation around them already.Really I don't understand your struggle dude why are you so unreasonably stubborn about this?
>>98407341If that anon is as Russian as OP seems, that might be the explanation. They've got some weird thing where they identify with the orcs (likely a result of the propaganda OP mentioned), so they're prone to try rehabilitating orcs as a means of self-soothing.Also, I haven't read any of the Histories in a looong time, but I don't recall there being a point where Morgoth was capable of creation.
>>98405654>You disingenuous liar.Hello? Are you insane? Their weakness to sunlight is shown not just in the Hobbit, not just at the escape from Moria, but even at the Siege of Helm's Deep where even the Uruk-Hai, despite having some resistance to it, are still stunned by the dawn's charge of the Rohirrim and easily crushed. How many more fucking examples do you want from the stories before you admit you're full of shit?>No? Do you think a fox spends it's day seething about sunlight.Foxes don't scream in literal agony and horror at sunlight, you disingenuous little retard. >Because the movies exaggerated that It's book lore. It's canon. You're wrong, the movies are irrelevant to you being wrong. Just admit you're wrong.>you seem like the type that only saw the movies.Lol. Lmao. Says the retarded faggot who is continuously wrong about literally everything, trying to push some kind of insane agenda that orcs are 'merely misunderstood.'>Yes, all six of them.Every single interaction. Cope about it.>Azog? He literally WAS family.They cared because he was their king. Read their goddamn dialogue you lying little faggot.>I'm pointing out they aren't human and it's silly to pretend them eating humans is 100% proof of them being irredeemably evil. You are so far up your own autistic faggot ass that one of the most defining examples given by Tolkien himself of how irredeemable orcs are by nature, is somehow not proof of how irredeemable orcs are by nature. Amazing.>They literally draw attention to the fact that Orcs don't eat other Orcs. Do you remember why they don't like to eat other orcs? Of course you don't, you've never touched a page of Tolkien in your life. It's solely because they don't taste good. >You are ignoring the nuanceWHAT NUANCE?! You're ignoring the blatancy of the entire setting, the explicit everything Tolkien wrote about orcs, to push a schizophrenic headcanon.
>>98405654>Again, their main measuring stick is cowardice. It's just one of many. I've already listed several, no matter how you struggle to deny them and dismiss them as not a big deal. I'll list some more in the next post.>And their main drive above all is "fear" and "Self preservation". At this point you're so completely off the page of Tolkien's writings that you're literally inventing your own race of orcs. By all means, if you want to worldbuild, do so on your own time, without forcing your degenerate headcanon on others. >When did he say they were fundamentally evil?This is such a profoundly retarded, ignorant question that you've managed to make me write a small essay to shut you the fuck up once and for all. I'll save that for last.>Anon, he had depictions of supernaturally evil monsters.Yes. Orcs are one of them. It's not complicated.>Smaug is given plenty of charisma, but the story still largely goes of it's way to show how unpleasant and arrogant he really is. And it doesn't go out of its way to show how wicked orcs are? Are you even reading your own posts at this point? >there is still a clear difference between him and the evil portrayed in LOTR. Oh my fucking god, shut up. Please. Every single claim you make is more insultingly retarded than the last. You haven't touched a page of LOTR or The Hobbit, that much is very, very obvious by now. The arrogance, the greed, all of Smaug is a reflection of the same evil that drives Sauron, the same that drives orcs. The only difference is that Smaug was given far greater strength and intellect than orcs were.
>>98390004>because no human just hates and hates and hates and that is the only thing they ever feel.have you been on /pol/ or any /pol/-lite board?
>>98405726Some of my responses are a bit out of order. But who cares? You aren't going to read this shit anyways, you'll just repeat the same retarded arguments again.>Anon, all evil is a extension of Morgoth because of how the universe works.No. It isn't. People in Middle Earth can be perfectly terrible scumbags without any influence from Morgoth or Sauron or anyone else. Eru gave all living things that possess a soul the capacity for evil, because that is the nature of free will, and it does not need to be stoked by supernatural sources. The evil that grips Orcs is of an entirely different nature, so foul and absolute that even Gandalf, one of the kindest men in the setting, sees absolutely no redemption possible in them. Gandalf advised Frodo that perhaps even Gollum, wretched as he was, could find some kind of salvation, somehow, but orcs? No, absolutely not.>Balrogs are mindless blobs of evil. You've actually got it backwards, hahaha fucking retard. Orcs are mindless blobs of evil, Balrogs are actually hugely intelligent, ambitious warlords, being fallen Maiar they have minds on par with someone like Gandalf and Smaug. The Balrog is actually speaking to Gandalf when they clash in Moria, we just don't know what he's saying because of the language barrier. We can only intuit something of his meaning from Gandalf's replies.>Did Morgoth create Lions as well?I bet you thought this was really intelligent. Lions don't even crave human flesh. When they do eat people, it's because they're desperate for food or are defending themselves. Orcs eat people not to survive, but because they love the flavor, they feed as much on man meat as they feed on the suffering of their victims, boiling them slow and painfully or chopping them up piece by piece to roast.>Again, we literally have one of them be driven by wanting to avenge a family member. No.>And their main drive above all is "fear" and "Self preservation".Wrong again. No matter how many times you repeat it.
>>98390004pretty sure Dunledings hated the horse lords for stealing their lands tho
>>98405726Final reply. Hopefully you read this and fuck off once and for all.>When did he say they were fundamentally evil?Good to know you're finally admitting it you haven't read shit. You can find plenty of quotes to this nature in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, but there are more absolute, omniscient statements in his legendarium:>"foul broodlings of Melkor who fared abroad doing his evil work" - The Tale of Tinúviel>"perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said." - The SilmarillionIn both of his proposed origins for them, they are stated to be, in no uncertain terms, fucking evil. If you want to argue otherwise, you're arguing with Tolkien. Even when he starts second-guessing himself and wondering if maybe they must be corrupted mortals of some nature to explain their limited sapience and trappings of culture, the end result is the same. They are *supernaturally* evil, somehow devoid of morality except that which they can use to besmirch that of other races; they call running from a battle an 'elven trick,' implying elves are inherently cowardly and traitorous, when in actuality they themselves are everything they accuse elves of. Before you start to speak from your ass again, this isn't to suggest that orcs actually hold themselves to such codes of honor, but to prove how debased they are by nature, that they would claim to be more honorable than Men and Elves and Dwarves when it's clear to everyone reading the books they are puffing themselves up on slander of their enemies. That is capital E Evil at its core, they live a lie enforced by violence, violence against their own kind!Orcs don't need to be corrupted the way that Saruman and Denethor were, they were ruined long, long ago. It's in their blood, they're born without the chance for goodness, and you can certainly pity them for being oppressed by a greater evil, but there is no point searching for good in them.
>>98404811>Orks
>>98408748It's really a pic related moment, isn't it?
>>98389202>A threat grows in the West>Gondor is rising>The King of Men has returned>He has a Palantir>Bands of Rohirrim scour The Wold and the East Emnet>Orc factions, lacking their leaders and cities, are now in turmoil as rivals fight for command>There are rumours of a new Dark Lord, and many are flocking to serve himThere's lots to do without resorting to communism
>>98389202Seems pretty easy imo. Sauron fell, the the good guys one, and you are a rag-tag team of surviving orcs. Giving up and submitting to the rule of King Aragorn is gay, and so you have to start from square one; taking control.Your first steps should be recovering equipment. Think of all the encampmwnts, forifications, barracks, left over from the war, raid that shit, get loot, and off the pathetic scum that sees it fit to command their sad renmant squad. Build an army, and much later in the campaign, challenge Gondor. The ring may be gone, but there's still plenty of evil shit still around, accursed blades and Ringwraith armor, Sauron's mace, hell even dark secrets from Melkor's legions.
>but tolkien was le based chud!!!Newsflash retards, current year bluesky and current year /pol/ are not the only two worldviews that have ever existed. Tolkien was a devout Catholic who was self-consciously faced with a dilemma between wanting the orcs to be irredeemable and recognizing that since they had speech, emotions, and some understanding of morality even if they didn't follow it, they must be made in God's image and have free will and therefore their lives have inherent value, and he never found a satisfying solution.
>>98389202I’ll make this simple: I’ve read entirely too much Tolkien but not as much as others and here’s what I see>orcsNo culture. No custom. Without a strong willed leader they are squabbling 50-iq murderhobos who are able to start fires and burn whatever it is they kill for consumption, if they have time. There are no female orcs or children, they are corrupted and consumed by darkness and exist to rape and murder and plunder and do as they’re told. If you whip them you can make them do other menial tasks.>uruk-haiAs hobgoblins. Militaristic, no better than orcs in mentality or culture, but they have a much stronger communal identity that makes them a more dangerous and coherent force. They are basically a warrior culture with zero honor or empathy principles and, again, no women or children make for a nomadic and baseless existence. All they do is march, kill, rape, and plunder.>goblinsMostly referenced in the Hobbit: goblins appear to reproduce to some extent and have a culture: they’re petty and resentful and overall capable of running an extremely low-trust society, but a society nonetheless. They can craft and trade to some extent but all of their works and dealings are exceptionally crude and with an individual rather than a collective. They have a hierarchy of some kind, even if it’s just worshiping the biggest and meanest out of fear. They particularly resent dwarves and elves before men; who they seem to be more or less unaware of or uninterested in. >easterlingsNot much is said but that they are wicked men and desire the destruction of Gondor. After the fall of Sauron they returned to their lands and not much happened. Clearly they have some degree of culture and civilization.>HaradrimEven less said, but they were mostly allying with Sauron out of hate for Gondor. They didn’t give a rat’s ass about “evil” plans. That being said they were also removed from the west following Sauron’s fall.
>>98390004>I want to play LoTR but I don’t want to adhere to anything remotely Tolkienesque and I’m not willing to let my players do evil things while playing evil races.So you just want attention. /thread.
>>98389202By writing them as having free will and ambition? What a stupid question. Why is this even an issue, you fucking petushok?
>>98417225Tourist detected. It is explicit unambiguous canon that orcs and goblins are the same species, 'goblin' is just the English translation Tolkien chose for the original Westron term 'Orc'.
