Question for GMs: have you ever had an NPC accompany the party that turned out to be a traitor or secretly planned to backstab them? How did it go? Did you drop hints about the backstabber's true intentions? If so, were they subtle? Too subtle? Or did the players find out? If the PCs were betrayed, did they manage to get revenge? I will probably include a betraying companion in an upcoming session, and I'm not quite sure yet how thick I am going to lay it on. I do not mind if the players find out, quite the opposite, but they shouldn't find out super early. He should accompany them for atleast a few ingame days before they notice he is in cahoots with the bandits stalking the party escorting some noblewoman.
>>98394298Yeah, it's not a terribly original idea, I know. I was mostly asking about the execution.
>>98394288The last time I ran a game. I had the insane idea to take on some internet random for a change of pace from my normal group. These tards ended up doing this to themselves.>Party get attacked by Drow slavers while on the road.>Nobody gets taken, but they get roughed up bad and their magic compass that points them towards the plot macguffins gets stolen.>Party limps into town.>Some townsfolk have been taken by these Drow recently.>The men of the town are putting together a militia to attack these Drows' camp and get their people back.>Party are asked for help and given free healing, lodging, etc. >Party joins in the assault the next morning and proceeds to be hyper-focused on their compass with zero concern for their militia allies.>No efforts are made to protect or heal their allies in this short cave dungeon crawl, some are even left to die.>Party reaches the Drow slavers and the slavers tell the militia members that instead of everyone having to die, they're willing to trade the townspeople for these far more valuable adventurers.>Party are absolutely shocked when the militia members that they've been treating like disposable cannon fodder shit decide that sounds like a pretty good deal.>Give the players a chance to roll some Charisma checks or say something to regain control of the situation.>Players decide that going full Warhammer 40k Commissar and shooting a man in the head with a crossbow is somehow how they're going to inspire loyalty in these men who owe them nothing.>Get accused of "railroading" when the party gets their asses beat by the combined forces of the militia and drow and then handed over to the drow as prisoners.I wish I were making this up. I'm not. Never run a game for random. The average D&D online random is suicidally retarded and will treat your campaign like its fucking Skyrim and act surprised that treating allies like shit has consequences.
>>98394288You want to hit three steps:Step 1: The companion does something to ingratiate the party to them. Offering to pay them for a job isn't enough, the NPC should do them some favor or give them something for free. Perhaps the NPC calls in a favor and gets one of the party members a discount on some thing they want to buy. Players are greedy and form attachments based on transactional values all the time, the easiest way to get the players to like an NPC is for them to get something out of it for free.This step is important, because its not a betrayal if the players never trusted the NPC in the first place.Step 2: The 'deniable action'. You want the NPC to do something that aligns with their true motivations against the party, but which has a valid non-sus explanation or alibi for it. An easy one would be if the companion doesn't help the party fight a bandit attack and instead runs and hides out of the way for the fighting to stop. they had the opportunity to help the party against their attackers, but chose to save themselves instead, but the campanion can claim that they had to hide because they're not a fighter so it only made sense for them to find someplace safe. If the players LIKE the companion at this point, they might even be happy that he didn't put himself in danger, but the fact remains in retrospect this action will take on new meaning once their true motivations are revealed.Step 3 is, of course, the actual reveal of the companion's true loyalties. This should happen once the betrayal is complete, and the companion is certain that they have the upper hand and that the party is in an unwinnable situation. That, or the companion gets outed for their betrayal by the bad guys and its thrown under the bus, leaving them at the mercy of the party to believe their innocence or punish them as they see fit. Your choice. Trying to get clever and 'hint' that the companion can't be trusted too much will almost certainly just blow up in your face.
>>98394288I had NPC so disgusted by party's actions he turned against them. Even through it wasn't pre-planned betrayal they've seen it as such because they're unable to comprehend concept of their own actions having consequences.
>>98394837y?
>>98394798That's a nice breakdown. I have some ideas about step 2, and step 3 will likely come naturally. But step 1 I gotta work on. Good effort post, thank you Anon!>>98394539>>98394837lmaoThankfully my friends are great players, so I haven't had that kind of scenario yet.
>>98394798Yeah, dropping hints is a risky game.I was running a murder mystery in Call of Ch'thulhu once.All I had to do was describe the light of the full moon cascading through a broken window onto the rent apart body of an unfortunate victim, two players simuntaneously shouted "Werewolf" and I just facepalmed, because of course it was a fucking Werewolf.
>>98395139This. Do NOT give hints. Just let things organically play out.
The best way would be something like the npc doesnt set out with the idea to betray them. Something happens or gets said to them mid journey that causes the betrayal. Then you can drop hints without needing to from the beginning
>>98394288I kinda did the opposite, my players were forced to work with this guy named Judas benidictarnold, he would constantly rub his hands together "betrayalfuly" and mutter under his breath about everyone getting what they deserve.but he truly was just an honest and upright man unfairly stereotyped due to his bad teeth and greasy hair, my players spent days stalking him and I just described him training seeing eye dogs and coming home from the soup kitchen to his many adopted children who adored him.
>>98394288Dark Heresy 1e.>Party is on the way to Malfi, known corrupt shithole, when they meet a suspicious pale guy aboard the same ship as them.>They corner him and he admits to being a Cold Trader (smuggler of xenotech and similar artifacts to nobles), and immediately gets terrified but compliant when they out him.>He also is a Blank (anti-psyker) with some kind of device in his chest that gives him cardiac arrest when manipulated that's suppressing his Blank aura.>The party immediately force him into being their man on the inside for infiltrating noble houses in exchange for not shooting him then and there.>When they land, a noble lady and the Cold Trader (codenamed 'Jackal', henceforth 'Jack') get attacked by mercs.>Jack acquits himself decently and the noble lady offers to help the party, letting them into a noble soiree.>At the soiree, a fake Jack is seemingly present, and the real Jack disappears once the host is murdered by unknown means. He reappears defending noble children from Chaos cultists.>The Chaos cultist orchestrator of the murder reveals himself to be a shapeshifter, and the Party goes after him alongside another noble and Jack.>Pursuing the orchestrator, Jack does his best to help them and the party does their best to groom him into a proper Inquisition acolyte, even letting Jack execute a noncompliant Chaos cultists who promptly shits himself with terror when Jack gets close.>Further in the noble turns on Jack and tries to kill him. The party try to defuse the situation and the noble angrily says that every time something's happened, Jack was conveniently not present. When they don't support his theory, the noble leaves them to die as Chaos cultists bear down on them.>Jack thanks them and promises he'll join the Inquisition for their trust if they promise to protect him from their employers.>Acolyte has a brain-wave and shoots Jack.>Jack immediately drops his act and reveals himself as a C'tan.
>>98398779>a C'tanWat. All of them are fragmented and/or imprisoned, and that's a massive threat that's well beyond a single group of acolytes capabilities. Not to mention having it only care about such base petty things makes no sense. Its a creature beyond comprehension, a star vampire. It should be playing a game of 8d chess over the sector.
>>98398919>All of them are fragmented and/or imprisoned,This one is the former, but has been eating other C'tan Shards to reform itself. However, said shards have been of other C'tan, resulting in a profoundly weird one. It's mainly the Deceiver, but it's earned the codename "Chimera" for a reason. Not a full C'tan, but one equivalent to an Ascendant Shard.> and that's a massive threat that's well beyond a single group of acolytes capabilities.Oh yeah, and Jack made that very clear, basically toying with them, forcing one of them to kneel to it by means of gravity anomaly, then leaving them with a "gift" in the form of a xenophase knife, calling them a "treasured pawn" and leaving.>Not to mention having it only care about such base petty things makes no sense. Its a creature beyond comprehension, a star vampire. It should be playing a game of 8d chess over the sector.It's been spotted having been behind quite a lot of local legends in Calixis, being suspected as being the culprit of the extermination of Dark Age humanity, fucking around with the local spooky Warp anomaly known as the Tyrant Star for no real reason, and has now been confirmed as being actively working to infiltrate the Inquisition. Plus, the Eldar have shown up and are shit-terrified of "Vaugnh Ra" as they call it.>It should be playing a game of 8d chess over the sector.It is. It's just also capable of being personally malicious, as I'm playing him in the style of Nyarlathotep.
>>98394288No, but I have an encounter in my fantasy module where the party meets a couple of bandits who are forcing a pathetic goblin named Snot to dig his own grave. If the players save him, Snot offers to help them against his own clan, only to betray them later. However, he isn't actually loyal to his clan either. He lies, makes empty promises, gaslights everyone, begs when cornered, and behaves like a stereotypical middle manager. Eventually, he can become one of the bosses the players must defeat.
bump
>>98398734>haha, I subverted your expectation that anything remotely interesting would happen in my game
>>98394288>>98394798My problem is that I have a hard time finding a character that can both be useful, unassuming, and have motivation to go through all the trouble of befriending the party to stab them in the back, instead of just supporting their enemies.
>>98405417>and have motivation to go through all the trouble of befriending the party to stab them in the backDo you even spy? All you need is a guy trying to gather important information, or a guy trying to steal a powerful artifact?
>>98394288>have you everI've used this so much my players are inherently suspicious of strangers.>How did it go?Excellent almost every time.>Did you drop hintsNo, that is shitty GMing. The character will do what it can to prevent being found out. The other PCs either discover their secret or they don't. Hand holding is for retards and children, and I GM neither.>did the players find out?They did twice. Both times because they became suspicious of the character's lack of faults.>If the PCs were betrayed, did they manage to get revenge?In some cases. In other cases, they didn't seek revenge because the NPC was compelled through circumstances beyond their control.
>>98394288I don't "have" anyone do anything. The players choose who to ally with.
>>98394798>banditsjesus.
>>98399045yikes. don't quit your day job.
>>98403046Who are you quoting?
>>98408425Have your players ever chosen to ally with an NPC who would go on to betray them?
>>98408446If you're not a fan, then good thing you aren't in my game. My players are, so it works for them. Hope your GM delivers an experience you're a bigger fan of.
>>98394288Not exactly, but I did pull a "small gods". Where the little goober the party "adopted" (as players always do when encountering any small creature), was actually an ancient god whose powers and form had been reduced after the civilization declined and were forgotten. He never betrayed anyone,he was a nice little guy.
>>98408425give it time, you'll pick up on how predictable players are and how to set them up to do things you want while thinking it was their idea.
>>98408558They really aren't.
>>98408575What do you mean by "things I want to happen"? What gave you the impression that there is such a thing?
>>98408578That sucks to hear, anon. Maybe talk to your GM about it. Hope your games improve.
>>98408616Nope, your players, not mine.
>>98400011This is cool, I'm stealing this
>>98408697I didn't know you were in my game, anon.
>>98408583>being a GM>not having any desire to impose your will on the worlddoesn't add up.
>>98408737Wrong again.
>>98409300Why did you quote something I didn't say?
>>98411184I didn’t know you were in my game, Anon.
>>98411840Wrong again.
>>98394288I just do it so comically over the top that the players can’t tell if it’s a bit or “Eevile Schaymer” is actually evil or not.
>>98412552I didn't know you were in my game, Anonymous.
>>98411185>>98413511quiet, you don't want things to happen and should shut up.
I'm basically just copying Avitus from Dawn of War 2 Chaos Rising for a character.Old, bitter, tough as hell, but realizing everything he fought for was a lie after he realized his direct superior flat out came out as evil and dishonorable but he has no choice but to keep going since he has nothing else left until he dies a worthy death.
>>98414564Why did you quote something I didn't say?
Yes, and i wasn't subtle about it. The betrayer was helpful, agreeable and stuck with the players and acted as a bit of a planar encyclopedia, but I wasn't hiding the fact that this was quite obviously a succubus. However, the advice was solid and she helped the party fight against a common foe. The mcguffin was this ritual scroll that could be cast several ways. Suffice to say, they got the scroll, were handling the final fight and decided to have the betrayer, the fiend from the lower planes, cast it.One player knew and played along, he rolled low on insight but I wouldn't have complained if he just hit her with disintegrate or banishment. I dont run insight as a lie detector.The other players bought her bullshit about reformation and love and were completely blindsided by the obvious betrayal, but they agreed they had every opportunity to stop it.Just make a betrayer helpful and have them have a clearly telegraphed motive so players don't flip their shit when the betrayal happens. If they find out and take action, they feel clever. If they lett the betrayer reach theor goal, make that a major setback and change the world state accordingly.
>>98414564Answer me.
>>98408425Yes, but when you transcend kiddie pool GMing, you will have NPCs that have their own plans, desires, motives, etc.
>>98416768Good job not responding to anything I said and not contradicting my position.
>>98416768>>98417261Anon, whatever beef you two are trying to have, this is not thread for it.
>>98407474Someone in the party is secretly going to betray everyone for their own gain! They are...>trying to steal a magic item from the party>a spy for an organisation that the party is enemies with>a guy with a secret person vendetta against one or more members of the party>a guy who wants to use the party as expendable but powerful muscle for his own goals> a guy who actually is possessed by an evil ass demon or has an evil alter ego> a guy who is just really in it for the love of the game (the game being betrayal)There's really a lot of flavours of betrayal
>>98417356>>98417356>Someone in the party is secretly going to betray everyone for their own gain!Better yet, give EVERYONE in the party some secret personal reason to betray the others and watch how long they can keep it together before things implode.
>>98417275Then concede the argument.
>>98394288There's two ways to play it, comically or seriously, it just depends on your players and your table. For my groups, playing up the obvious evil intentions with vaguely threatening dialogue and overt visual descriptions would be great, they'd cherish their obvious Judas with open arms, waiting for his sudden and inevitable betrayal. Playing up the silliness is also better for situations like yours, where bandits are a very brief moment you won't spend several sessions on. For a more serious table, I'd recommend more long term plays, perhaps someone with a bit of rank in the chain of command who doesn't boss the group around, but they go to for help or quest information. You want the party to trust him implicitly. Over time, give the party some questionable objectives that don't exactly align with their quests, or even their allegience. Stuff like theft, silencing a detractor, burning evidence, ect. I'd advise against betraying the party directly too, they'll pulverize the fuckee immediately. Betray them off-screen, have him kill the King while they are away, or commit some crime that incriminates the party, and the campaign then shifts to catching the asshole and clearing their names.
>>98416220oh so there's something specific that you want me to do? There's a reality you want to see? You have aren't just letting things happen? Amazing. Glad you've learned your lesson.
>>98417479Okay, I concede the argument.
>>98417753Nope, you lose.
>>98417870Not sure what mind games you thought you were playing but sure, I don't care.
>>98399045Man. I love your art but hate the entire concept of this 'jack'
>>98418086Oh it's not my art. It's one of my players'. LazerGroove on the twatter, if you want to see more of his stuff.
