Dwarf magic users are rare. Not because they lack innate magical ability, but the thought of spending money on a fireball when they could just throw a flaming oil barrel at something would make them jew out hard.

>>98405204
That's a really good idea.
Maybe we ought to include things like rubies, sapphires, and diamonds, too, and maybe have some spells cost things like rare monster materials or endangered plants that require questing or large amounts of gold.
Wouldn't that be something?

>>98405229
and the few there are are so unbelievably wealthy they make more money casting the spells than they are spending.

>>98405204
Money isn't value, it represents value. Destroying some money will just deflate the currency. All the actual assets would still be there.

>>98405554
with fiat currency sure, but OP is talking about gold, not paper

>>98405204
>local child watching gay chinese cartoon accidentally discovers spell components

>>98405259
>>98405699
It’s a little better than spell components to be honest - it’s a simpler system (instead of 300 odds and ends to keep track of it’s one -gold - that you were already keeping track of anyways) and it’s intrinsically already tied to the adventuring / dungeon loop because you were already going into those dungeons for gold/treasure in the first place. It also makes for a very interesting trade-off when using cold=EXP systems because when you cast spells in the dungeon that’s money you’re not taking out and thus not getting EXP for. And that gives a bit of interesting balance to maritals / casters as well - casters can do all sorts of stuff but when they do they lower their exp, while martial can steadily build up exp easier and get to higher levels.
You don’t get that when spell components are some charcoal, a rat skull, and some random plants you picked up at the grocers before you left town.

>>98405204
anon this already existed before. spell components didn't used to be handwaved and free. you had to actually procure and carry them and they were consumed every time.

The damage WotC did to the game and especially the headspace of the playerbase of TTRPGs at large is irrecoverable.

>>98405734
anon, he was being sarcastic. he's saying it already existed.

>>98405734
>You don’t get that when spell components are some charcoal, a rat skull, and some random plants you picked up at the grocers before you left town.
It seems like you specifically could get that, those cost gp or otherwise engage with the gameplay exploration loop.
Or you would if anyone used spell components ever as a thing you have to track.
Never seen or even read of it being done exactingly.

>>98405734
>because when you cast spells in the dungeon that’s money you’re not taking out and thus not getting EXP for.
Cairn does something like this but instead of affecting pocketbook directly it affects carry weight. To cast a spell you need to carry its book, and on top of that every time you cast you lose an amount of max encumbrance until you get to heal back everything at the end of an adventure.

So if you really abuse your spellcasting, you might end up in a spot where not only can you not bring any treasure out, but you even have to leave some of your spell tomes behind to make it out alive.

>>98405900
And in some ways I think it's a better system, because the wizard can't whine at the party to lend him more. "c'mon guys, we neeeeeeed me to cast fly right now right, gotta pay that wizard tax."

like sure "hey can you carry my stuff" can happen to an extent, probably already was, but you can't have them carry anything you need to wear to get any benefit from or that you need to access quick to actually use like a weapon or combat effect tome.

plus in gold = EXP systems, you get the EXP for getting it out, but nothing's stopping you from bringing it back in to fund the castings of the next expedition. It's not like you don't lose EXP for bringing the gold back into the dungeon. You'd just normally never do it because most of the places to spend it are back in civilization, the only reason to do so would be if you couldn't exchange it for useful goods but also didn't trust any of the local banks or pawns to return your property so had no choice but to keep it on your person, hampering your gather space for the current expedition.

>>98405860
Read better?
The post you’re responding to is comparing gold-casting vs spell components, he knows spell components exist

>>98405734
Why not just make magic cost XP to cast?

>>98406018

>>98405259 does not mention spell components by name, only by execution, because he's pretending, for comedic effect, that the idea is novel.

>>98405900
>>98406039
>why not make magic totally impossible to use in a style of play that's already more difficult for them?
The mudcore meme has at least been a good honeypot for bad design.

>>98406039
Exp isn’t a tangible thing, nor does it exist beyond being a game mechanic. Maybe that’s how you end up being a lich - going beyond the borders of reality and into the occult mechanics of the universe and seeing that gold magic was actually EXP magic all along, incentivizing you to hoard exp over centuries to build up power - but it doesn’t really work as a basis for your average magic user.
It also doesn’t come with real world weight limits, which gold - by virtue of being a heavy metal - conveniently does.

>>98405962
Bringing outside gold/treasure into a dungeon as “fuel” is kinda an interesting decision, because it’s more weight that you’re carrying, which means you have less capacity to carry the stuff you find and want to bring out - which is the whole reason you’re down there in the first place.
I definitely would think in a system like this you’d calculate EXP gain only out of the difference in treasure value you have from when you enter and when you leave.
Coming in fully loaded, burning it all up in spells, and then filling back to full shouldn’t give you the same EXP as entering with an empty pack and leaving with a full one - in the first case you should get nothing, because you didn’t actually gain any value.

>>98405204
Would rich trinkets made out of gold/silver passively boost magic ability? Like a giant goofy cast gold neck chain is actually a super powerful magic artifact

>>98406090
how is it inherently more difficult for them?

Cairn is gear-based not class-based. A casters PRIMARY downside is needing that inventory space empty. It's the main thing keeping them out of things like heavy armor. Sure you could put on platemail, a gambeson, a helmet, and a shield, and wield a warhammer, but you're down 7 slots of 10 total, meaning if you add a single tome on top of that, you have exactly 2 casts of it a day, only 1 if you want to carry out exactly one (1) item of loot. To speak nothing of rations or torches or any other useful adventuring gear.

>>98406118
No, but it would be a big display of both wealth and power (more than it already is) to wear big gaudy gold jewelery as simply fashion when it’s so important for magic (and in a pinch they can be destroyed and used for spells anyways)
You still end up with pimped-out archwizards at the end of it

>>98406096
Creating a system that deliberately incentivizes players gimping themselves at the expense of the group's overall effectiveness in order to gain an accumulating advantage has so much potential for toxic behavior that it is insane to even consider.

This dynamic is present with any form of spending long term resources for short term advantage - you are basically always better off placing the burden on the rest of your group and accumulating that long term advantage if you can get away with it unless the costs of a short term advantage are low enough to be insignificant.

And that isn't even getting into particulars with treasure based balancing, like how the form that treasure takes can suddenly have a radical impact on balance, or how clever solutions to carry capacity shatter inter-class balance when balance hinges on spare carry capacity.

>>98406096
And if you don't end up using it all the it's still available to use, the only opportunity cost is if you don't have enough to carry everything out.

A better solution would be to just force them to have to buy some kind of tangible item that fuels spellcasting, that way it IS spent, locking that amount of GP into being used for spellcasting, or even one specific spell if it's a strong one like raise dead.

i.e. components

>>98406127
Have you considered that other players won’t give you all their stuff and walk around feeble and naked into the dangerous cave system? No?
Casters are kinda fucking self-centred huh

>>98406121
>how is increasing encumbrance in a game style built around looting making things more difficult for them?
anon I understand you're fucking dumb but try a bit. Its a rules lite game, there's not that much to have to think about at once.

>>98406137
Okay but then you better have a detailed 5 page list of every twig you pick up, their quantities, sizes, and weights and where on your person you’re keeping them And it is being audited

If you want me to cast Raise Dead on you when you get crushed by an ogre, you better have bought and given me the diamond beforehand. It’s coming out of your budget, dipshit fighter - mine spell components are for me. If you want me to buff you, same deal - it’s your job to go out to the apothecary and get roots and shit. If you don’t too bad - jerry gets haste because jerry supplied the root. You skimp you get nothing kevin

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>>98406118
>>98406121
>Before you stands a dignified man, clearly a spellcaster of great magical ability, wearing on himself rich and well-crafted golden chains and expensive trinkets. His mouth shows entire rows of golden teeth - it is another display of the man's wealth and casting power.

>>98406203

Wrong reply, meant to reply to this:
>>98406126

>>98405204
You know there are games where magic is already balanced, right? Why do you keep trying to re-invent the wheel?

Problem is you run into the same issues as the real world
>can only get microchi- i mean reagents in one place
>people with far more money and power then you will just buy it all and take over means to produce it
>leaving you to pay them for materials
>cant afford it? Work at my farm harvesting it for money!
>the more money everyone makes the higher the price
>magic becomes such a rarity that people now bluff that they have it
>the entire world is at a standstill until more slave power can produce more reagents to control more slaves
That all has to be factored in to the sociology. However, make reagents incredibly comming shit like "three blades of grasa" and everyone suddenly becomes much nicer, since your not sure if you can be hit with a fireball. This makes a wonderful wild west setting for your games. Or just make prestidigitation a subscription service. Im always up for new ways of doing things if you appropriately account for them in the world.

Alternatively, that doesn't happen, since the game is more fun that way.

>>98405204
In my dungeon crawling game, there are no classes and no inherent magic. All magical effects come from consumable items, which may be purchased or discovered. Anyone can use magic items, but those who invest the resources can use them more effectively. There is no experience, gold is spent to improve character abilities directly.

>>98405204
You mean material components, only simpler?

>>98407010
Why do you bother? You know he's not going to respond.

>>98407101
For my own amusement.

Christ that's grim.

>>98406792
when people think about "magitech" they think about stupid shit like casting spells using computers or making guns using crystals and catoblepas teeth.
but the truly interesting aspects of magitech are what you described, magic doesn't spring out of nowhere but needs resources to work so whole industries grow around it (that aren't just "hire pyromancers to shoot fireballs at water boiler all day", that's even more retarded), effectively working similar to real tech but capable of different things (because we aren't working with oil and electricity but with fantasy resources that produce different effects)

>>98407010
Basically.
The problem with spell components is they aren't consumed on use unless stated otherwise and some are so common it's dumb to buy them (sand, drop of water, etc).
The biggest difference though is that it make spell casters hated by the common man, the government, and more for destroying wealth for personal gain. Some Uber rich fuck buys a super yatch? They still put money back into the economy, funded jobs, and paid taxes. A spell caster? Just destroys the physical assets the economy runs on.

No, we can't have material costs, significant time imposition, concentration risks, onerous memorization times, or wandering monsters to prevent faggoty sleep spamming any more, casters need to be able to do anything they want instantly or you're a racist.

>>98405204
anon reinvents material components, which have been a thing since the mid 70s. Slow clap.

>>98407873
And the common man doesn't give a shit. The caster is destroying his own money, not the common man's. The common man doesn't know anything about economy beyond the basics. The uber rich fuck's money go mostly to other uber rich fucks, not to the plebs at the bottom. The few jobs they've funded to cater to their bullshit are a drop in the ocean. They do all kind of shit to avoid paying taxes, and because they are buddies with the government, probably get the money back from them anyway.

>>98408030
Yes, retard.

>>98408580
>The common man doesn't give a shit
I keep forgetting that people are so used to a fiat currency the concept of a physical commodity backed currency is a positively alien concept.

So let's break it down for you in simple terms.
>Your town has 100 pieces of gold
>Those pieces of gold are constantly changing hands.
>Workers get paid, buy products, etc all from that pot of 100 gold
>The town only needs about 80 gold to function
>A wizard shows up
>The wizard sells the town healing potions. Five of them for 6 gold each. But helpful if anyone gets hurt
>The wizard uses that 30 gold to make a hand appear, grab a book out of his bag, then disappear
>That gold is now gone.
>Your town now only has 70 gold
>It can't function as it normally would
>The wizard took the wealth, but didn't put it back into the economy and instead removed it from existence
>The laborers don't get paid
>Violence breaks out from people not getting paid.
>They are physically unable to get paid because that money doesn't exist anymore and can never be recovered
>Remaining gold coins still have the same value as before. They didn't increase in value.

It fucks up the basic functions of how the world's economy works, anon. Some retard sitting on a trillion gold coins didn't remove the gold coins from existence. They can still be used and flow into the coffers again. Destroyed wealth is just gone and cannot be recovered. That kind of shit hits the lowest earners first.

>>98409932
>I keep forgetting that people are so used to a fiat currency the concept of a physical commodity backed currency is a positively alien concept.
Funny you should say that... Let me fix that for you:

>Your town has 100 pieces of gold
>Those pieces of gold are constantly sitting in some asshole's coffer.
>Commoners don't deal in gold at all, as that's far beyond what they could get their hands on
>Despite that, he town still works perfectly fine
>A wizard shows up
>The wizard sells the town healing potions. The rich asshole is only one who can afford them
>The wizard uses that 30 gold to make a hand appear, grab a book out of his bag, then disappear, because he's a rich idiot who can just burn money
>That gold is now gone.
>Your town now only has 70 gold. Commoners don't care, as it wasn't their gold in the first place
>It continues to function as it normally would
>The wizard took the wealth, but didn't put it back into the economy where it wasn't anyway and instead removed it from existence, nothing changes for the commoners
>The laborers get paid just like before
>People shrug and say something about the shit rich people do
>They are perfectly fine
>Remaining gold coins are still in the rich asshole's coffer

Even if peasants did deal in gold for some reason, removing the gold from existence changes nothing. They can still deal in kind, like peasants would anyway. Within the small community, it doesn't matter. The only people affected would be merchants and upper class dealing with people from other towns.
Coin are not nearly as necessary in medieval-ish economy as you seem to believe.

>>98409932
No, the remaining coins are now worth more. Hope this helps.

>>98408426
The issue is that material components aren’t seriously used anymore. The effort of switching it to money - which is something everyone cares about - seems like an attempt to fix that issue.
The handwaving of an ambiguous “materials pouch” kinda ruins the whole system so I get it

>>98410047
True desu the works are being paid in flour and nails not gold

>>98409932
Excessive hoarding of coinage is effectively removing it from circulation the same as burning it.

>>98410156
Which is why billionaires continuing to live is unethical

Nope :)

>>98410189
Most billionaires aren't sitting on billions of actual dollars. They are billionaires because stocks and companies they own are "worth" billions and odds are incredibly low they will ever get anywhere near that monetary wealth from those assets because as soon as they do, that shit is getting taxed to hell and back. As long as it remains theoretical wealth instead of tangible wealth, you aren't paying taxes on it.

>>98410189
Since the wealth of a billionaire (or trillionaire) in the modern era is due to his ownership of capital, and not actually a representation of a Scrooge McDuck vault of currency, they actually don’t have the same deflationary effect on prices that a king who never spends his tax revenue or a merchant who imports goods and exports silver would have, so actually allowing billionaires/trillionaires to exist is unethical for entirely different reasons.

>>98405734
>charcoal
>rat skull
>grocery items
What parts of "rare" and "endangered" eluded your half-dead brain?

>>98410955
You want your level one spells to need dragon blood or some shit anon?

>>98410065
>The effort of switching it to money - which is something everyone cares about - seems like an attempt to fix that issue.
That's in both the original D&D5e PHB and the DMG

I fucking swear some people just never read the book

>>98411088
Kinda faggoty to jump to 5e out of nowhere, but sure we’ll go with your system
Okay how much money does it take to cast fireball, the most popular spell, in place of its spell components?

What if magic required the player to get laid before using it? The player, not the character.

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>>98406203
I dap up my wizza
>how you been playa?

>>98411126
Read the book. I'm not going to spoonfeed you. Hell, it's on the wiki as well for you nogames out there

>>98411126
the other fag is lying to you. 5e essentially handwaves the price - for about 95% of spells while there are listed "spell components" they get ignored and functionally don't exist.
You just hold a "spell component bag" which contains infinite amounts of everything that never spoils or gets crushed or whatever, and that applies for everything, with the exception of those 5% of spells which require diamonds etc. The less rare things are apparently always abundant and free.
So in 5e the components for fireball essentially are nothing. There's no "in place" of the spell components rules, it's just that the default is that there are none.
The problem you mentioned here >>98410065
>material components aren’t seriously used anymore
is not solved by 5e, and the other fag is just lying through his teeth and seething because... well that I can't give an answer for, I don't pretend to understand schizos.

>>98407649
Honestly, if you hold it to those standards of magic is simply component reactions, we technically are in a magitech society and its grim.

>>98411585
well yeah we kinda do, at least from the perspective of someone not accustomed to modern technology
but don't think that these standards limit what magic can do, magic can still do all kinds of fantastical things, it's just a guideline to integrate it into the world as if it was tech.
you can ALSO have non-industrialized magic in the same world too
for example, needing to consume gold to cast magic is a simple but effective base to start from. people itt pointed out that it would ruin the economy or stuff like that... but that's like saying that consuming coal and oil for power ruins the economy because you're destroying precious resources.
sure, if gold-eating magic is NOT integrated into society, then it may be seen like that. but if it is, if the industry around the extraction and trade of gold takes into account its use as magic fuel, then that would already technically be magitech (albeit a very simple kind)

>>98405204
So the magic gives a shit about the value of the currency?

If you want to go down the "materials for every spell" rabbit hole, you need to tie the cost to something else than value. Create a magical ore, or make it gold, and tie to cost to the weight, not the value.

>>98410189
What makes billionaires unethical is that they will never ever use the vast majority of their wealth for anything else except for acquiring more assets that provide them with even more passive income. If you let billionaires exist, they will eventually just absorb all of the assets in the world.

Kinda like dragons. You gotta kill them from time to time to put all that gold they hoarded back into circulation.

>>98405204
It worked this way in Xcrawl (at least in the 3.x version). To cast copyrighted spells you had to burn cash as part of the casting.

>>98411710
billionaires holding all the intangible money in the world doesn't actually do any harm in itself, it's when they leverage that money to act on their stupid ass ideas that only harm society. like you have a shit ton of labor and resources going into generating AI slop that no one except indians generating porn via grok have any use for, when instead we could be solving the plethora of real crises we are currently or about to be dealing with

>>98412249
Well yes and no.

It does directly harm the regular people when billionaires own services and infrastructure that are vital for the every day wellbeing of the common plebs.

If critical infrastructure was publicly owned, profits from it could be used in manner that benefits the society as a whole, rather than purely for creating more means of acquiring profit for profit's sake.

Some form of private ownership is necessary for promoting innovation, but in an ideal world it would be the government's role to determine what to declare critical infrastructure and to maintain public ownership of such industries.

But in principle I'm not arguing against your point, I just wanted to be pedantic about it.

>>98411574
Pretty sure the rules explicitly state that your spell component pouch has all the components needed to cast all your spells and the components are not consumed on use unless explicitly stated (like resurrection requiring a diamond worth at least 300 gold).

>>98411042
This isn't about what I personally want.
When I want something in a game, I put it in one of my existing games or a new one.
This is about the retarded !components casting system OP was so chuffed to post about.

>>98412497
Okay so it handwaves the process, you agree with >>98410065 , and >>98411088 is an idiot/liar because there is no “money instead of spell components” in 5e
Thanks

>>98411585
Not grim.

>>98411684
No, it's tied to value.