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tiefs are based and that's the end of it

>>98407432
They basically were till gays turn them into the fag race.
The problem is you have too many tourists and activists forcing the idea that the different races mean the same as races of men. When Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc are as different as dogs, cats, etc.

>>98407432
Because pushing real world ideology is more important than consistent or interesting fiction.

>>98407444
they've been a core race longer than you've been alive...

>>98407451
Considering ideology is just fiction too it's a prime example of real world tieflings in action. They have no horns but will regulate every single thing and turn it all into contracts of binding obedience and debt.

>>98407432
>Why does modern d&d pretend ae if there are no biological or spiritual differences between races?
What were tieflings like in non-modern D&D?

>>98407432
>my take should override established lore
I fucking hate dnd, but this take is so bad that I want to beat you to death with a novelty hammer. Tieflings were never inherently evil. In the 2nd edition, they could be any neutral or evil alignment. They just couldn't be lawful good. In 3.5 they were "usually evil" which means that at least 50% of the population was evil. In 4th and 5th they could be any alignment.
Also
>literal satan blood
Satan belongs to the Christian fantasy setting. Doesn't exist in Forgotten realms.

>We are all slaves to our biology
>Thought does not exist
>Free will does not exist
>You will consume the AI slop

>>98407432
Well I think that- wait
YOU BROUGHT GOBLINS HERE?

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>>98407627
Damnable roach! Provoke the Blade...

>>98407432
Tieflings weren't all evil in ye olden times either.
Made me reply/10

>>98407576
They were usually evil for a start

>>98407432
Your assumptions are operating on outdated lore. You can literally turn regular humans into tieflings now from "hell radiation" or having a familial curse, no need for actual fiend blood. OP image has tieflings that are literally former humans.

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>>98407432
>op can't fathom a concept so simple and eternal as half monsters being normal people in spite of their nature because of their HUMAN side

>>98407672
But that's all of them now

>>98407432
>Sit down to play a new game
>Only races available are thiefling, fightling, wizling and clerling

>>98407675
Archetypes exist for a reason and the protagonists are usually special. Do you get bored of the image of a lone hero, or small group of heroes slaying a dragon even though it should be far more impossible than portrayed and is very common?

>>98407675
Most tiefling characters in modern DnD don't have some dark inner nature they're fighting, including the ones in OP.

>>98407679
Even tiefling NPCs are just normal guys now. There's nothing special about a tiefling who isn't evil, and those who aren't evil have no reason to hide because tieflings being just normal guys is expected. PC tieflings are only different in that they're more flamboyantly gay and non-binary than NPC ones

>>98407697
Tiefling NPC's still get persecuted because they look like devils, it's actually surprising more of them don't turn evil out of resentment.

>>98407708
Oh that's it, blame the humans. Don't make me bring out the rape stats

>>98407711
The point was that they don't turn evil. DnD rape stats are probably topped by humans now that half-orcs are no longer born mostly of rape.

>>98407722
>DnD rape stats are probably topped by humans
Per capita, bitch

>>98407730
Including per capita.

>>98407730
Every time I hear per capita I just assume the person saying it now doesn't even know or understand it and is just trying to look smarter than he is.

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To avoid being stereotypical all a tiefling player needs to do is to not play a fiend pact warlock.

>>98407739
That's because you're Indian

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Rolled 3 + 1 (1d10 + 1)

Tieflings are cool if you run them as cursed beings and reduce player agency during character creation.

Rolled 8 (1d10)

>>98407796
Lets try again

>>98407796
If people don't want to play ugly characters I wouldn't force it on them with RNG.

>>98407677
heh

>>98407739
>I assume
So you're openly admitting to be a fucking retard. Well done. It takes strength to admit being dumber than a glass of water.

>>98407722
Maybe they just changed how often the rape actually creates a half orc.

>>98407752
Or a lesbian.

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>>98407587
Dragon Magazine 28, 1979

>>98408352
He looks like he's really enjoying himself.

>>98407432
>Subhumans
Either Humans are also subhuman because they fall under the same type of Humanoid (As within this world it's likely human comes from humanoid rather than the other way around)
>Literal satan blood
Also untrue, at least as of 5e (which BG3 is based on). You can be a tiefling with two normal human parents, and it's often the result of pacts in your family's past or other fiendish influence.
>Are normal humans
Humanoids, but yes, they are of the mortal races and are not true fiends. They don't even have the Fiend creature type.
>Why does modern d&d pretend as if there are no biological or spiritual differences between races?
There are. That's what your Species features are. Just because you don't get ASIs from them doesn't mean they aren't mechanically distinct. And as of 2024 tieflings actually have variation in how they look. Not enough for my taste - I reworked them so that all the 2014 lineages are updated and each type of tiefling resembles the fiend they are influenced by because I love visual storytelling - and the older editions with their huge tables of weird features are better too, but still an effort was made.
>These aren't even human ethnicites, they are completely alien species
Incorrect. They all fall under Humanoid. A better comparison would be neanderthal and other hominids from our world - and humans crossbred extensively with neanderthal.
>Tieflings should be fucked up genestealer cult tier creaturas
Then run a game where they are that, nobody's stopping you, but as per the lore of Faerun they're just a separate subspecies of Humanoid. Genetically speaking, they're the cousins of humans like Gnomes, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Goliaths, Dwarfs and so on.
>not mary sue humans snowflake edition
That's what humans are dipshit, they're still the most powerful option as of 2024, and Variant Human was the best option in 2014.

>>98408318
That's OK if the player is a woman or your group is into ERP

It's because of DEI: Demons, Elves and Incubi

>>98407675
You could run them differently at your table. Have you considered that you have that power?

>>98408352
>>98408415
According to the same issue Satan was overthrown by Baalzebul and Baalzebul was overthrown by Asmodeus.
>Asmodeus has reorganized Hell to suit his purposes. Satan had originally divided Hell into nine distinct planes, in order to keep track of which damned soul went where (no pun intended). Asmodeus has dispensed with the old structuring and doled out the planes as sort of fiefdoms under his suzerainty. He kept the ninth plane as his personal demesne and granted the sixth and seventh to Baalzebul, out of respect for his previous service, making him the only devil to rule two entire planes personally. Dispater and Geryon were also granted entire planes because they were the first to support Asmodeus, and they have since been his most loyal followers. The other planes are divided among the other six dozen or so arch-devils. Astaroth was offered a plane, but he declined the responsibility. Asmodeus has used his position to increase his personal strength to the point that he is now the most powerful devil to be found on the nine planes of Hell. This is unheard of, but it was barely permissible by the Laws of the Multiverse because the departure of Satan and Belial from Hell and the reduction in strength that Baalzebul took left a slight imbalance in the Multiverse which Asmodeus used to increase his own strength. And so, all the planes of Hell are now securely under the dominion of Asmodeus, Lord Of Hell.

>>98407612
>You will never be a woman

>>98407672
Even in 3.5, the standard NPC Tiefling stat blocks were Alignment: Evil (any flavor). The demonic or devilish inheritance in their blood was always supposed to predispose them to wrongdoing, even if the humanity moderates the demonic side, leading to lesser deeds of evil like white collar crimes and petty bullying.

>>98408497
3.5e was actually a departure since in 2e they could be neutral.

>>98408445
Why should I have to clean up your noosphere pollution?

>>98407475
Im 41 years old.

I honestly blame world of Warcraft. They were the first to make the explicit connection between orcs and black people. Each of their races have clear real world analogues.

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>>98407432
Because bad modern writers really like direct analogy, and don't have the skill, understanding or interest in good fiction to write in broader strokes. You can't have a race that's biologically wired to be half evil (and use them to explore themes of good and evil and struggling against your own nature), you have to make them a direct analogy for a group of people, to make sure absolutely no-one misses the point you want to make. After all, there are no biologically evil ethnicities irl, right? Never mind it's fantasy, and you can fantasy in multiple different sapient species.

>>98407659
Neither were Drow but Drizzt is so speshul that twelve trillion books were written about him

>>98407708
When does this ACTUALLY happen though?
Besides Tieflings being the designated "wacism bad" race in their lore blurbs has it ever actually happened that Tieflings are showns to be prosecuted on a systemic level?
Even in Big Gay 3 the Druids who supposedly are judging them are still letting them stay in the grove and sealing it up due to the goblin/absolute threat.

>>98408517
Cambions are still biologically evil despite having a non-fiend parent, they just aren't playable.

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>>98408352
That's not what the page or the stat block looks like

>>98407839
Thats why all your players and your characters end up boring special snowflakes.
Good roleplay requires friction.

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>>98408536

>>98408528
The reason those tieflings are in the grove is that Elturel exiled its tiefling population between the events of Descent into Avernus and the game, due to blaming them for the city being sucked to hell. Obviously they weren't involved in that as the original adventure shows and this was just because they had a visible similarity to the devils.

>>98408537
Most players aren't interested in their characters becoming randomly ugly before the game starts, someone might turn that resentment into gameplay and make that character into Ephialtes or something but that's rare enough to not be worth fishing for.

>>98407587
>Satan belongs to the Christian fantasy setting. Doesn't exist in Forgotten realms.

Hell/Devils use judeo-christian themes and names in D&D, while Demons/The Abyss uses a mix of babylonian, pagan, and lovecraftian stuff. There's a satan-equivalent.

>>98408624
Speaking of which, 5.5e allows chthonic and abyssal tieflings again so you don't need any connection to the Nine Hells any more.

>>98408352
>>98408472
According to the issue, the entire article is not canon either to AD&D or the Catholic church. Its an alternative take on the origin of Evil.
Also, even if Satan actually was in FR, tieflings still would not have his blood. That is also some retarded AI bullshit.

>>98407432
>These monstrous subhumans
They're literally just mutant humans, expressing fiendish features from a metaphysical taint introduced into their lineage.
>with literal satan blood in their veins
Ah, you're a nogames retard.
>are normal humans just
Yes. They are quite literally just normal people whose bodies have been altered by fiendish essence, via several magical means either from gestation or later.
>like us goy!
Its fascinating the way you retarded white supremacists have adopted Hebrew language terms.

>>98408417
While most of this is correct, the Humanoid type is a broad creature type that includes elves, dwarves, dragonborn, humans, and a great deal of the playable races. It is not cognate with Hominid, nor is it based on humanity in the game. And tieflings are normal humans expressing a fiendish taint. In Faerun, they are not a separate subspecies, but literally just humans with fiendish taint. The problem arises in that D&D is terribly designed in many instances, and tieflings get labeled a separate species while not being one. Truthfully, Tieflings really shouldn't be a "race/species" but should be a universal "subrace" available to all "species".

>>98408445
I played a tiefling once. I wanted my character to be an outcast because of it, so he wore a cowl to hide his horns and red eyes. Turned out that hiding was completely unnecessary, because ogres tended bars, kobolds owned shops, and tieflings were just ordinary people

>>98408653
Did you talk about your plans before the DM at all before the game?

>>98408656
Yes

>>98408653
I wasn't a Tiefling, but this was my experience of a 5e Eberron game at a convention.

Motherfucker, why are there kobolds here? Sharn's biggest non-human ethnic group is GOBLINOID.

>>98408661
Did he say that you would not need to do that because demihumans of all sorts are a common and accepted sight?

>>98408680
Well no, otherwise I wouldn't have made such a character. It's not like we wrote complex backstories that the DM had to incorporate into his world. We just presented character concepts. "Is it okay if I play an X who is Y? Is Z allowed?" kinda thing.

>>98408679
Meanwhile, Stormreach has a standing bounty on kobold scalps.
So naturally one of my players wanted to play a kobold.

>>98407432
Thieflings should be a female only race of horned, fork-tongued sluts

>>98407675
>But that's all of them now
It's up to YOU as the PLAYER to make an evil tiefling.
You decide as to how you ROLEPLAY a character.

>>98407432
They want to have things that should be oppressed, but at the same time shouldn't be, and largely aren't, because they want the social credit points of showing a world without prejudice but at the same time still has prejudice because they can't imagine not feeling oppressed and marginalized.

>>98408415
He's happy Glasya has her tits out

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>>98408472
Reminds me of the BÖC song Seven Screaming Diz-Busters, which is about a second rebellion in Hell among Lucifer's former lieutenants.

>>98408706
Then why are you surprised that your character has no need to hide?

>>98408747
The protagonists are supposed to be the exceptions to the rule, but now the rule is that there are no "usually evil" races

>>98408754
The eternal SJW dilemma
>We want to fight oppression and bigotry
>Putting oppression and bigotry in the setting upsets me

>>98408754
Or someone plays as a tiefling because they think playing as a half demon sounds cool.

It's not that deep.

>>98408777
AI has convinced me not all humans are equally sapient and people who engage in paradoxes like that are on the lower end of the sapience scale.

>>98408779
You're talking about players, I'm talking about game devs.

>>98408773
>The protagonists are supposed to be the exceptions to the rule
Not always.
>but now the rule is that there are no "usually evil" races
You as the DM decide what kind of world your players play in.

>>98408788
That's fair. And you're right.

>>98407627
WHERE IS THE DRUID?!!

The D&D club at my college requires that prospective DMs submit a campaign primer for review before being given a table at the club. I was banned from the club for racist dog-whistling because I described Tieflings as "Roma-inspired tinkers". This was 4E-era, btw. So this retardation has been around for a very long time.

Why are trannies so obsessed with tieflings, anyway?

>>98408805
KANON, NO!

>>98408812
>I was banned from the club for racist dog-whistling because I described Tieflings as "Roma-inspired tinkers".
Did you show them the books? Tiefling society being largely transient caravans that do odd jobs has been there for decades.

>>98408777
You see that all the time in social media if you make the mistake of subjecting yourself to current year's media discourses. There are adult nerds can't handle even slightly heavy children's media without xitter meltdowns if those heavy themes are upsetting and have connotations to IRL bad things.
See how The Amazing Digital Circus fandom virulently bullied Gooseworx out of social media for not handling the uncomfortable themes and character development of people's favorite characters the exactly right way for a recent example.

>>98407443
built for handlebar facefucking or something idk

>>98407432
>Why does modern d&d pretend ae if there are no biological or spiritual differences between races?
Because modernism and human rights based ethics are derived from the concepts of the christian soul and universal applicability through acceptance of christ, but its acceptance of global humanism. So the fiction and game worlds made by people who believe in these ideological modes will apply them to everything and not really see how its out of place due to the totalitarian requirements of the ideological. The games and fiction are cultural artifacts and will have those underpinnings.

>>98408789
Do you think the actual published material has no influence on people's expectations for the game? First time players, having perused the books and seen the artwork, will go into the game expecting sesame street for adults

>>98408843
It has an effect, but it also doesn't matter because YOU as the DM decide what kind of story/game you want to tell to people.
You are allowed to be upfront about telling "tieflings tend to be evil 90% of the times in my games because they are literal devil spawn".
This is allowed. And if some retard gets upset about this, then they aren't worth playing with anyway.

>>98408941
You're either exceedingly lucky, or you don't actually run games. Just because it's allowed doesn't mean it will lead to a good game, or even having a game at all. You have to tailor your game to your players expectations if you expect to have players for long.

>>98408972
Or you could git gud and debate the players into seeing things your way.

>>98407432
Because people liked to play them, thus, they must be made to be homogenized as possible.

>>98409061
5.5e fixes the homogenization complaints, you can now have abyssal tieflings with tusks and and a coat of fur or gnome-sized humans with dwarfism without homebrew.

>>98408513
>Warcraft
Shadowrun overtly made that connection half a decade before Warcraft 1 was released, and it did so in about as blatant a manner as can be, complete with police curbstomping orcs for "walking while trog".

>>98409084
If orcs are not black, why did warhammer have black orcs?

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>>98407432
I like Tieflings because they remind me of Draenei

>>98407576
https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Tiefling_Tables_(PWH)
TL;DR: they had randomized magical powers, more monstrous appearances (but in a patchwork way that made the rest of them look human most of the time, rather than being technicolor elves on their entire body, unless you rolled one of the much rarer skin color features, which were 85-87), and had strongly evil-coded passive supernatural effects which would create suspicion around them. There was a chance of getting something actually good, like useful spells, protection from non-magic/silver weapons, claws or natural AC of 1d6+3 (equivalent to 11-16 in ascending AC systems), but importantly, you didn't get to perfectly customize your OC, you just rolled the dice and discovered what hellspawn was generated.

Unironically, FATAL's Anakim are a more accurate interpretation of AD&D tieflings than anything past early 3e. Balancefaggotry and the need to veto your character being disfigured are what took this away.

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>>98408773
Reminds me of Eberron. 3.5 Eberron was made with the assumption that no mortal race is naturally evil (demons and other supernatural shit doesn't count).
Except Yuan-ti. Fuck those guys.

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>>98409100
Good taste.

>>98409023
You clearly lack the debate skills needed to change the worldview of anybody, let alone new players.

>>98408318
There are no male tieflings so they are all sapphic sluts by nature. Sometimes they like to get dicked down by human cocks too. Preferably chaotic good ones who spit at them and tell them they are hellspawn scum before face fucking them, using their horns for leverage.

>>98409182
>Preferably chaotic good ones who spit at them and tell them they are hellspawn scum before face fucking them, using their horns for leverage.
This is my character

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>>98407612
>We are all slaves to our biology
We are. Try not eating and tell me how valuable your thoughts are (they aren't)

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>>98407432
The same setting basically reduces elves, dwarves, and halflings to just humans that look funny. Baldur's Gate is shown to be some metropolitan monoculture where all the races act and speak the same. Drow are the only forgotten realms race that actually feel like an unique culture with a different viewpoints and behavior.

>>98408941
I'm not the DM

>>98407587
>In 3.5 they were "usually evil" which means that at least 50% of the population was evil
I would advocate genocide for less. Moreover, Tieflings breed true, so you can never get rid of them unless you kill them.

>>98408817
See >>98408754
They want to be the thing that gets oppressed, but have no oppression, so they can fantasize about real life being the same.

>>98408941
Hogwash, the public perception of the hobby affects everyone in it, regardless of what's in their games or not.

>>98409084
It's not about who did it first, it's about who made it mainstream and codified it, and that's Warcraft.

>>98409168
I accept your concession.

>>98409453
>Baldur's Gate is shown to be some metropolitan monoculture where all the races act and speak the same.
It is literally a trade city. And BG3 at the time took place at the furthest point in the Forgotten Realms timeline. It's been over 100 years since BG2.

>>98407432
Only human male fighters are evil. And their warrior archetype equivalents.

>>98409632
And there you go, proving him right again.

>>98409641
The people triggered by straight white human male fighters are post-modernists, so to them nothing is evil anyway.

>>98407432
you have failed the most basic test of morality, and the entire narrative device the tieflings are meant to represent.

you are fundamentally a bad person

>>98409716
>narrative device the tieflings are meant to represent
The one they were erroneously retconned to represent, a retcon any sane person rejects outright.

>>98409453
>If everyone isn't racist towards each other they're all LITERALLY just humans that look funny!

>>98407432
Why are they all weird colors?
Shouldn't they have human skintones?

>>98410158
Teeflings often have red skintones according to PHB, but there's are few in the druid grove with mostly humanish skintone.

>>98410178
>Teeflings often have red skintones according to PH
Wow, that's gay as hell.

Bro your great great great great great great ad infinitum grandmother was a Cherokee princess that means you're basically brown and speak perfect ᏣᎳᎩ

>>98409683
>straight white
No one said that but I guess have to force hmf to be a culture war thing

>>98407675
This.
They don't even have an evil component.

>>98410233
Cambions have an evil component but it evaporates in the next generation.

>>98407443
Truly a flippy blippy
Tiefling hate is overdone

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>>98408352
>Dragon Magazine
>1979

>>98407432
>Why does modern d&d pretend ae if there are no biological or spiritual differences between races?
Because Tabula Rasa is the sacred cow of the modern era.
If there are irreconcilable differences between people then it might be that humans aren't interchangeable economic units and if that's true then certain groups aren't just wrong, they're fundamentally wrong.
And they can't tolerate that being the case, even in a piece of fiction.

It's the modern equivalent of hardline 70s fundies who insisted their cleric worshipped Jesus because they were unable to leave their ideology at the door.

Everything else they say is cover for this fact because admitting this is the reality would make them the smallest, pettiest little tyrant in the whole wide world and they can never, ever admit that.

>>98407432
I blame Clive Barker for this shit
>we're the super horny BDSM freakshit monsters who have tons of sex, but also "sex" involves violently flawing people alive and doing incomprehensible acts of violence, but we moan sometimes so it's supposed to be like a commentary about how all humans are fucked up freaks like us
>also we may kill people and do unspeakable things to random people for no real reason, but at least we're not MEAN like those CAPITALIST PIGS
Fucking retarded. Go die.

>>98410337
Tieflings have nothing to do with hellraiser, why are you upset?

>>98410341
Because that's where the "maybe the monsters aren't actually bad guys, did you ever think of that, bigot?!" line of thinking was popularized.

>>98410350
No it wasn't.

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>>98410350
Tieflings aren't monsters that became playable like drow or githyanki, they were playable from their introduction and were rather wretched. There are many playable races besides those that would also fit to that analogy.

Also Hellraiser and Crossed both make the point that maybe humans bad, but cenobites and crossed are still just monsters and something that's actually like them would only be playable in joke campaigns so who gives a fuck.

>>98410362
It was. Clive Barker did a bunch of drugs in shitty BDSM clubs with all the faggots and then started writing books and scripts about BDSM demons who are portrayed as not-evil, because corpos and suburban white dudes are the real demons, according to him. That shit was a hit in the BDSM faggot community, which shares subcultural DNA with the modern faggot community, which eventually made its ways into the WotC offices where they pushed the idea that inherently evil races were problematic and hateful. Hence why Tieflings, which are literal demon spawn, are just presented as quirky blue girls with horns.

>>98410382
Tieflings were introduced in 1994 and were a playable not-always-evil race. You're just autistic.

>>98410387
That's not what I'm saying. Learn to read.

>>98408624
>they have some trait in common, therefore they are equivalent
Fallacious statements can be discarded without consideration.

Also, no. FR's Hell is based on Alighieri’s inferno, which is a poem not canon in Christianity. It takes some of its geographical cues from Greek mythology (like the river Styx), and devils use Faustian contracts rather than the biblical punishment for turning against God. Your equivalence is akin to saying two cars are the same because both have been painted green.

>>98410395
You're just saying "a bloo bloo tieflings being playable means white man bad" which is autistic. Tieflings aren't even a monster race made playable like duergar, drow and gith which would better fit your autistic theory.

>>98410404
>which eventually made its ways into the WotC offices where they pushed the idea that inherently evil races were problematic and hateful.
Learn to read.

>>98407432
This is exactly what turned me off from the new Baldur's Gate. I really wanted to like it but muh poor, heckin' devilman refugees.

>>98410410
Which relates in no way to tieflings, who were not always evil when they were introduced into DnD which WotC didn't own then. As a hint, a race that you should seethe about if you were being sincere would be orcs, who were changed from always evil to not always evil by WotC because they said always evil was problematic.

>>98410424
Taking Tieflings from Planescape, where they were cosmically aligned with evil, and then turning them into quirky blue and red people with horns and none of the negative and unpleasant features they had before, is literally because faggots at WotC believed that having actual demonic blood in their veins should not be considered a bad thing.

And yes, we fucking agree you disingenuous mongoloid: Removing the evil from Orcs is the same exact kind of faggot mentality.

>>98410439
They weren't cosmically aligned with evil in Planescape as they weren't forced to be always evil back then. Or they were but then they are so now because their appearence and racials come from hell. But planescape tieflings were less aligned with evil than the entirely mundane orcs of that time.

>boo hoo no random table to force ugly, billions must die

>>98410454
You tried to repeat my argument back to me and then spewed some bullshit to try and discredit it. Are you genuinely retarded?

>>98410455
Your argument of tieflings being evil was bs since they weren't evil-locked like orcs before le WotC got the IP. Everyone can see you and this thread exist because seething about le trans tieflings is nogames vogue rn.

>>98410221
Always was, always will be.

98410493
Nope

>>98407432
Okay so create your own setting where this is the case instead of bitching about the settings where this was never the case.

>>98410512
>Too afraid to reply
Anyway, HFY is racial supremacy, which makes it Culture war slop.

>>98410527
James Cameron's Avatar destroyed DnD.

We're talking about hmf, human male fighters
Hfy fags tried to turn it to a culture war thing, but irl it's never that. Only on here

>>98410547
Same shit different toilet. Even if it wasn't, it's contrarian subhuman filth.

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>>98407443
>>98410242

>>98408417
>You can be a tiefling with two normal human parents, and it's often the result of pacts in your family's past or other fiendish influence.
That's very, very different. It's different enough to be a completely different thing.

>>98410696
It's very much not. A Cambion is the child of a fiend and a humanoid; that's an entirely different creature to a Tiefling, which is simply a humanoid with fiendish influence of some type.

>>98409084
Shadowrun was a cool niche game for nerds. And it was in a modern setting where racism in the modern context could be explored.

Warcraft was for normies and existed in the mythic fantasy space where race takes on a different meaning. Or should.

>>98407432
>>98408517
>might be harmful to real world groups
Literally the same exact thing as fundamentalists calling D&D Satanic except framed through the lens of dogmatized racial egalitarianism.

>>98407672
This
>>98407675
Hellboy works because from the start he is set up to bring the apocalypse but his adopted father gave him the gift of human kindness

He struggles and is far from a perfect person but choses to be human

Now take that and apply it to every single demon,ghost,ghoul,nazi sandbag

Overcoming ones evil nature is as easy as choosing to put on pants instead of shorts now so why should I give a fuck about it?
It's humans in costume not a different race

>>98407675
True

>>98408747
>It's up to YOU as the PLAYER to make an evil tiefling.
"It's up to YOU as the PLAYER to do things that might upset the twitter warriors because we're too scared" -Wizards of the Coast

>>98408833
Let's be real, like 90% of that was FunnyBunny shippers upset their fanfics weren't made canon and Jax stans upset that the unrepentant, aggressive asshole character was in fact an unrepentant, aggressive asshole.

>>98410350
I'm worried about what kind of person watches Hellraiser and somehow comes out thinking that the Cenobites are presented as good people. It's even more pronounced in The Hellbound Heart given that they're pretty clear analogues for drug usage as well.

>>98410419
Don't worry, goblins are mostly treated as something akin to talking vermin by everyone and no one really comments on it.

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>>98407432
Okay just make them like that in your game?
Why is the board of “make believe” actually the board of bad wrong fun? All that happens here is complaining about what other people are doing
>yeah but I keep playing with these people I’m complaining about
Are you unwary of filtering?

>>98411340
>All that happens here is complaining about what other people are doing
That is entirely disingenuous. You're effectively claiming that criticism of the corporations that handle these properties is ONLY criticism of the people who play them by that proverbial book, which is not only absurd it's a flagrant strawman.

To pretend like Wizards of the Coast haven't sanitized their settings of anything even remotely provocative is to be a liar. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. They'd sooner have you throwing a faggot parade in the streets of Waterdeep than explore a conspiracy of Tieflings trying to immigrate their extended family from HELL.

>>98407432
You are a secondary

>>98411514
>just don't buy it
>btw if you don't buy it you're a secondary
Subversive rhetoric doesn't work if you put both angles in the same post, trog.

2e Planescape:
>In the multiverse, few creatures are of pure lineage, and even fewer are what they seem to be. That's the greatest truth of the tiefling's existence. It's not advisable to ask a tiefling about his or her ancestors, as the answer wouldn't likely be pleasant. Part human and part something else, tieflings are the orphans of the planes. They can be described as humans who've been plane-touched. A shadow of knife-edge in their face, a little too much fire in their eyes, a scent of ash in their presence – all these things and more describe a tiefling. No planar would mistake a tiefling for a human, and most primes make the mistake only once. Tieflings live with both pride and shame of who and what they are. They have no culture of their own, and most are loners, which fits their background. Some slip into the edges of human society, becoming poets and artists who describe the corrupt fringes of the respectable world. Adventurous types often spend their years probing the unexplored edges of the multiverse, be it to survey strange lands or experiment in the forgotten niches of magical science.

>Humans don't trust tieflings (and deep inside they fear them), but they remain inexplicably fascinated by tieflings just the same. The plane-touched are often accused of secret plots and awful alliances — mostly without a shred of proof — because of who and what they are. A tiefling learns early that life is unfair and hard. His reaction is to fight back and never let his foes see the pain. Other people, even other tieflings, simply aren't viewed as allies and often are automatically considered enemies. A tiefling doesn't take a friend until he learns the measure of his companion, and even then he'll never fully trust anyone. "I watch my own back," is an old tiefling quip. They maintain no hereditary blood-feuds, but tieflings take care of themselves without any thought of others' problems.

>>98408517
lol that this image really buck broke /tg/ this badly when all the video says is "if your fantasy race resembles irl racist stereotypes, that's bad"

5e 2024 PHB:
>Tieflings are either born in the Lower Planes or have fiendish ancestors who originated there. A tiefling (pronounced TEE-fling} is linked by blood to a devil, a demon, or sme other fiend. This connection to the Lower Planes is the tiefling's fiendish legacy, which comes with the promise of power yet has no effect on the tiefling's moral outlook. A tiefling chooses whether to embrace or lament their fiendish legacy.

So what's the controversy? Not enough overwrought YA-tier prose that describes exactly the sort of annoying characters you're still getting now?

>>98411580
>when all the video says is "if your fantasy race resembles irl racist stereotypes, that's bad"
Because even that is pushing the boundaries of its own standard. Let's say we've got a rapidly industrializing setting. Races that innovate and have high intelligence (Gnomes, Elves) rapidly rise to the top while race with low intelligence (Goblins, Orcs) are left behind and end up factory wageslaves. Boom, you've created stereotypes simply by exploring an entirely neutral concept. The statement, then, is that this needs to be aborted in favor of racial egalitarianist principles. That is not reasonable within the scheme of either the game world or real life.

So I ask you: What makes this person's assertion valid instead of biased horseshit?

>>98410034
Correct. When all your fantasy races live alongside humans without racial conflict, speak the human language (literally called "common"), and assimilate into human culture, they are basically just humans with slightly different secondary physical features. The majority of non-human townsfolk NPCs in your basic bitch D&D adventure could be made human and the way the interact with the world wouldn't change.

>>98411285
Pretty much. Remember, the "play how you want" wasn't said when it was fags and tourist whining about want more gay shit and all. However, when the fans that build the fandoms and where there before it was cool and trending ask to keep the shit, or the rules to go back on some woke shit they get the cold shoulder and told to homebrew that shit. If they bent the knee to one side and whine at when the other ask to be cater to the same. Then that's the company picking as side and you shouldn't give them a penny till the bow their head just as much if not more as they were doing for the left. (Remember, they abandon the true fans for the "modern audience" that never came. Why give them a quarter till they admit they fucked up and like the left make companies do. Make them promise to fight the left racist and sexist DEI/BRIDGE policies.

>>98411718
>Why give them a quarter till they admit they fucked up and like the left make companies do. Make them promise to fight the left racist and sexist DEI/BRIDGE policies.
Because the only message I can end to them is my money. I'll spend money on thing I like and then openly bitch about things I don't like. That makes me a paying customer and therefore a reasonable source of feedback. A corporation that has made the mistake of trying to appeal to people that don't pay for their product would be very unwise to do the same thing again. Ergo, a certain amount of grace will be necessary when they do decide to quit their pandering to an imaginary audience.

Saiyans are supposed violent barbarians by blood and goku is still a pure hearted hero

>>98408417
>Either Humans are also subhuman because they fall under the same type of Humanoid
Not going to read the rest of your post because you're clearly retarded.

Vanilla humans are mechanically the most powerful race option in modern DnD. Trump won. Elon won.

Why is it that good tieflings don't become half angels? Devils were once angels, right?
It's not like they chose to be born and surely evil blood would be purified by turning good, right?

>>98411814
Because tieflings are not cambions, there is not enough outsider in them for stuff like that to happen. Tiefling is often a human with minor amount of hell radiation exposure born to normal human parents. Cambion has a devil parent, and is as evil as full devil so good cambions don't really exist in lore.

>>98411824
>there is not enough outsider in them for stuff like that to happen
Bullshit. If you can grow horns you have enough of it in you. And same for cambions, though you could make the case that the parent's blood is so dominant they can

>>98411829
Can't

>>98411829
Nah, tiefling horns are just cosmetic. Tieflings aren't Hellboy (who is also a cambion in DnD terms). They can no more transform into angels or devils than halflings and gnomes. Cambions on the other hand actually count as devils for the purposes of holy items etc.

>>98411833
>They can no more transform into angels or devils than halflings and gnomes
That's dumb, they should. I forget DnD tries to be as lame and gay as possible.
>Cambions on the other hand actually count as devils for the purposes of holy items etc
I am aware. Cambions I can see an argument for not turning into an angel because
1: Most aren't good and
2: it's one generation from powerful, evil, fresh, sinful, blood
Because tieflings have weaker blood and usually don't have the direct relationship with their ancestor that cambions do is exactly why I think it should be able to happen.

>>98411852
Cambion redemption story would be much harder but they could actually transform into angels because of it. Humans, tieflings, halflings and such can also become devils or angels the roundabout way (dying and climbing the ladder in afterlife). The dude who caused Elturel to sink into hell was a human and turned into amnizu because his pact with Zariel included a clause about becoming a powerful devil after death.

>>98411857
For cambions there is an argument either way but the argument against tiefling is flimsy

>>98411864
The argument for and against tieflings becoming angels is the same as for humans: it's possible but requires shenanigans. It's probably easier for humans to become an outsider if anything since it requires magical shenanigans and humans are the most powerful wizards in DnD.

>>98411897
>The argument for and against tieflings becoming angels is the same as for humans
That's stupid is my point.

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>>98411920
You could also play a cambion instead of a tiefling, their racials would just need big nerfs but then you could get your angel redemption arc.

>>98407612
There's more and more research to suggest we're all slaves to our microbiomes, and manipulating that is the key to changing everything about yourself.

>>98411939
Wtf midichlorians are real?

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>>98411928
I prefer cambions to stay half devils personally. More often than not players who would want that choose cambions specifically for that. In the systems I play it is like that anyway as well.
I don't really play games with playable tieflings because pathfinder and DnD are flawed systems in my view (and I don't like how tieflings are portrayed) and most other systems I play don't have them.

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>>98411824
Per the Xanathar's table, a quarter of a tieflings has a devil as one of the parents, with the other being either human or a tiefling.
Interestingly enough, there's no "both parents were tieflings" option.

>>98411949
Yeah that implies tieflings are infertile with each other or their kids are just humans.

That being said the devil parent options are weird, even if the tables are optional, since cambion entry says that they're born from that.

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>>98411949
>>98411954
5e also dumbed down a lot of stuff and made cambions refer to both sexes instead of just males. Wouldn't be surprised if they made incredibly basic mistakes like this as well.
Alu-fiend was the female version of cambion for a while that was half succubus
t. was just gooning to alu-fiend pictures and am in post nut and just read the page on 1d6chan

>>98411956
That's not new, Icewind Dale 2 referred to the final bosses (a brother and sister duo) as cambions.

>>98411959
Probably just for simplicity's sake. That or Alu-fiends are succ only and aren't just female cambions
Either way, devs for 5e have no fucking idea what they are doing

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>>98407587
>"Tieflings were never inherently evil"
>proceed to describe how they are inherently evil leaning

>>98411971
Maybe they do since DnD is more popular than ever. But I also like how draenei look so w/e

>>98407432
Scaly hands typed this

>>98411981
>Maybe they do since DnD is more popular than ever
Not really, it just finally broke into the mainstream consciousness. Same with Warhammer. People realized that pen and paper is actually fun, DnD just gets the most exposure because of the sheer exposure it got

>>98411987
Both DnD and Warhammer have people who complain that stuff before 2000 was better but that could just be contrarianism since they gather in contrarian centrals.

>>98411956
3.5 didn't have cambions proper, but a half-fiend template, but it did mention they are sometimes called cambions, and the accompanying illustration was female. It's not a 5e thing.

>>98412007
Big if true

>>98407432
>should be
I fucking hate political takes like this. And it is political, because you are not suggesting a way to interpret tieflings. You are not arguing that you specifically treat tieflings like ABC. You are arguing that everyone should treat them like ABC, and that not doing so is somehow bad, or not canon. Go back to /pol/ where you belong, CN.

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tieflings were cool until millenials and zoomers make them lame and gay
now every tiefling is uwu unique and quirky snowflake who's only character trait is sucking dick every 5 minutes

>>98408772
Because he's making shit up lol

>>98407432
The reason why is pretty simple.
>Setting has Thing that is Cool
>People see Cool Thing and go 'I wanna be cool thing'
>Cool Thing doesn't really mix with player perspective withing setting, or would otherwise be awkward to incorporate
Three things can then happen;
>People behind setting introduce diet Cool Thing which bends the rules a bit to allow players to be Cool Thing easier
>Players add Cool Thing to game themselves with homebrew, and more often than not rhe downsides playing as Cool Thing would logically introduce are ignored
>Players re-orient their game to better allow for Cool Thing to be playable, thereby allowing other Cool Things to potentially pop up
The second option is quietly what tends to happen and will generaly lead to the first option. The same thing happened for Drow, if we want to keep it to DnD.

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>People brag and celebrate about how Tieflings are no longer demonic and are misunderstood wholesome chunguses
>Somebody points out that Tiefling are no longer demonic and are just misunderstood chunguses but not in a congratulatory way
>fags proceed to have a melt down and make up a thousand excuses, copes and insults to protect their ego and tieflings
Why the fuck are modern zoomers like this.

>>98411358
>that criticism of the corporations
You are playing a tabletop RPG
You are literally the DM
Not only do you choose the buttons you press, you choose the color, shape, and what the buttons are called. Why the fuck do you care? The book isn’t a bible YOU control the world if you have a problem ignore it, you have something you like add it, something you don’t like take it away.

I don’t know how the fuck the 40k board home to autists that literally pick and choose what’s personally canon to them but somehow this constantly keeps coming up. It isn’t about criticism because who honestly fucking cares to hear “valid” criticism on /tg/ it’s about bitching. We have this fucking thread everyday.

>>98413014
They’re too busy gooning to some gay ass circus cartoon

>>98408754
I ran a number of games where a player wanted to play as an oppressed Teifling but every single time I tried to do something like that they either used magic to get out of the situation like disguise self or just attacked the guy for saying something crude. Not once have I ever had a player walk around in a cloak or wait outside of a bar.

>>98413033
>just run skyrim with mods!
>actually just use a complete overhaul to play a different game
Is there an overlap between D&D fans and Bethesda fans?

>>98413033
>Why the fuck do you care?
Here we go, some retard writing a book and then asking someone else why they care so much. Why do YOU care so much that I have complaints about how an IP is handled? Could it be that you have a bias you're concealing? Almost certainly.

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>>98413033

>>98413086
Did it occur to you that playing the bad guy might be FUN instead of playing the game like a great big fucking faggot parade of misunderstood mixed race perverts?

>>98407665
>You can literally turn regular humans into tieflings now from "hell radiation" or having a familial curse, no need for actual fiend blood.
wait, new lore went all the way around back to AD&D planescape lore ?

>>98407432
tiefs>>>>>>>>>human chuds

>>98413186
That's so fucking gay and completely obliterates everything interesting about the concept of demons being able to breed with anything and leaving mongrel rape babies behind long after the initial invasion is defeated like islam did to southern europe. I guess that's exactly why it has to be erased though.

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>>98407432
In BG3 they keep trying to do the
>they dindu nuffin
shit, but there's a book in the grove saying they ate all the food and used up all the medical supplies, the kids rob the druids, one of the girls tries to steal the druid's religious idol and it's confirmed in dialogue that they're robbing the shit out of the harpers to the point the harpers can't completely defend last light while the harpers are protecting them

>>98407612
the more I see my dad and brothers doing some of the same weird shit I do, the less I think it's nurture and the more I think some of this shit is nature.
hell, why do all faggots talk like faggots?

>>98413014
>modern zoomers
Zoomers from the 1930's were better.

>>98407432
They are the offspring of mortals with some amount of fiendish ancestry, meaning they are ensouled, meaning that they fundamentally have free will. They can choose to accept or reject their evil lineage.

This is not a conceit unique to D&D. Even in medieval theology and folklore it was believed that a child begotten upon a woman by the devil himself could still be saved by baptism, which is exactly what many stories depict as being the origin of Merlin (and his unnatural magic powers and prophecies).

>>98414846
crimson feet

>>98407432
>Why does modern d&d pretend ae if there are no biological or spiritual differences between races?
D&D is fundamentally a fantasy game, and that seems to be a trending fantasy.

>>98407490
I want you to know that I read your post yesterday and I’ve been thinking about it ever since. We already live in hell, the devils just don’t wear horns. No wonder we love Tieflings and groan at Aasimar.

>>98414905
homo homini lupus, nihil novi sub sole

>>98414846
>Beata Maria
>You know I am a righteous man
>Of my virtue I am justly proud
>Beata Maria
>You know I'm so much purer than
>The common, vulgar, weak, licentious crowd

>>98411986
I do feel like all the bitching about tieflings is just to deflect from how dragonborn are exponentially more awful.

>>98414999
that would require someone playing dragonborns

>>98414010
And going by dialogue the druids wanted to let the tieflings be slaughtered by goblins while they hunker down and do nothing about the rampaging goblin army. They don't even give a shit that a hag not only is operating within walking distance of their grove but also fail to notice she's literally in their house. Fuck, there are a grand total of 60 NPCS total in Emerald Grove, feeding everyone would only require six casts of goodberry a day. Outside of Halsen the druids are complete cunts.

>>98407432
>races
Erm, don't you mean heritage?

>>98415110
Tieflings:
>Please put your lives on the line to protect us mysterious secret order of nature worshipers!
>Yes we know we have literally nothing of value to offer you, and we're trampling all over your sacred grove or whatever, and some of us are even threatening to kill you if you don't let us in, but pleaaaase protect us pwetty pwease?
Druids:
>What the fuck, why are you bothering us? Go away. Get off our front lawn. You're bringing the goblins to our doorstep just by being here. We're not paladins for fuck's sake
Tieflings:
>Oh no! Oh, the humanity! We're being attacked by these horrible, evil druids for being Tieflings! Why does this always happen!
Halsin:
>Actually I'm gay and fuck animals. I'm such a degenerate that I'll happily throw my life away trying to help these strangers who have absolutely zero respect for my religious order and the sanctity of our grove
Anon:
>Halsin is the only cool druid, why are the other druids such jerks?

>>98415110
Open your neighborhood to refugees and let's see what happens.

>>98415265
oh and for good measure, Halsin cucks Shadowheart away from you and he does it with a grin.

>>98415339
Western developers literally can’t help themselves.

>>98415265
>>Why does this always happen!
lol, lmao
I love the real world parallels.

>>98415265
>>98415300
>>98415301
The funniest thing is that the tieflings are actually completely irrelevant to the plot of BG3, they're literally just caught in the crossfire.

>>98411358
Oh no, it's still full of provocative shit, they're just provoking you faggots. Y'know, like they always have.

In the 80s it was "REEE D&D IS SATANIC".

Now, it's "REEE D&D IS WOKE"

It's the exact same group of midwits screeching like the pearl-clutching faggots they are.

>a conspiracy of Tieflings trying to immigrate their extended family from HELL.
Because Tieflings are not, and never were, directly related to anything from hell you tertiary culture warrior gigafaggot. Tieflings are and always have been Planetouched. They are not true hybrids, but rather the result of some ancestor dabbling in dark magic or otherwise making pacts with fiends. You don't even know the thing you're whining about. Tieflings are not related by blood to any creature from any of the nine hells. You're thinking. Of. Cambions.

It's like saying Dragonborn are related to dragons by blood, they fucking aren't, Dragonborn are their own thing. Half-Dragons are creatures with mortal and dragon blood.

You're whining and moaning about settings you don't even know the first thing about. You're a tertiary who doesn't care about the game or the settings or the lore, you're just here to whine and cry about MUH WOKE. You know what? I'm sick of you whiny little shitstains. I hope that e very single thing you enjoy goes "woke", whatever the fuck that means in 2026, just out of spite. Because guess what faglord? It won't ever affect my experiences. And guess what? If you queers somehow swing the cultural pendulum back, I still won't care, if you make every setting an authoritarian racist hellscape, I won't use those settings, I'll make my own, just like I don't need to use settings where every character has 50 genders and is pansexual or whatever. You cannot control me. They cannot control me. Fuck you, you useless waste of air.

>>98411791
Nogames.

>>98411975
If you could play a Chaotic Good tiefling when I was in diapers, then your argument is bullshit.

>>98415783
Imagine being this mad and still being full of shit.

>Because Tieflings are not, and never were, directly related to anything from hell
Wrong in 3E, 4E, and 5E.
>It's like saying Dragonborn are related to dragons by blood, they fucking aren't
Wrong in several 4E settings and 5E. Read a book.

>>98415919
Well you see it's simple. They've defined themselves as the good guy squad and therefore anything bad belongs to the other team.
Bein' a hekkin authoritarian? Bad and thus not-woke.
Persecuting your political opponents for being chuds through every possible means, political, social, economic and occasionally terroristic? Good since they're bad and thus not authoritarian, because that belongs to the bad side.

>>98408513
>They were the first to make the explicit connection between orcs and black people
Orcs are Turkic.

>>98415990
They are related in no 4E setting to devils/dragons.

>>98411599
>Races that innovate and have high intelligence (Gnomes, Elves) rapidly rise to the top while race with low intelligence (Goblins, Orcs) are left behind and end up factory wageslaves. Boom, you've created stereotypes simply by exploring an entirely neutral concept.
You didn't "explore" it. You named a possible trend within one society with unknown rules and no status quo.
The deeper you get into it, the further your work will depart from stereotypes unless it was informed chiefly by them.

>>98414020
>hell, why do all faggots talk like faggots?
Same reason lotta feminists think all men are rapists. The ones who don't follow the stereotype are invisible.

>>98410158
Tieflings are the result of hellish influence and color-coded according to the flavor of influence, basically.

>>98410350
No you fucking retard, that's not the message anyone with a brain took from Hellraiser.

>>98408352
>69 hp
nice

>>98410382
Yet another useless woke/anti-woke bait thread, but thank you for your concept of "identity through shared subcultural DNA" . That's so hilariously nonsensical, I'm still laughing 20 mins after reading.

>>98416400
Wokies being incredibly authoritarian but defining anyone who disagrees with them as authoritarians or nazis will never stop being dumb to me.

>>98415783
>You cannot control me. They cannot control me.
It's funny how you fancy yourself a rebel while you defend the multi-billion dollar corporation from criticism.

>>98418657
Seems more like habitual contrarianism to me.

>>98410708
>a Tiefling, which is simply a humanoid with fiendish influence of some type.
I'm still not buying Tiefling-as-infection.

>>98418731
If tieflingness is a corruption deep in a past that can be passed through linage it is an infection necessarily.
Because its based on changing or corrupting a mix of souls and genetics in a haphazard and undefined manner its even plausible its contagious outside of sexual reproduction and that it could become more contagious with further demonic contact and agreements at any point.
Really, if we run with alignment and souls, the only way to prevent infection would be extermination and even then its no grantee because evil monsters can always tempt mortals into becoming tiefling vectors. .

>>98407443
Natural-born whores

>>98418811
>8811
This actually makes sense and inevitably leads to purges, otherwise the entire society is going to be infected.

>>98408513
>explicit connection between orcs and black people
This does not exist. Mag'har orcs being brown does not make them "black people".

>>98415110
Kagha ceded control of the grove to midget shadow druids and pretends to care about it, the only reason most people don't kill her for that is because she's a cute wood elf.

ZEVLOR'S ORDERS