Previous thread >>98373677
>>98413762It's really simple, but it requires rewriting and possibly remove numerous spells: Scale spell power and efficacy to the amount of adventuring players actually do in a given day. No one is doing half a dozen fights in a given day, with a dozen or more different challenges and puzzles and hurdles. They're doing maybe 2 at most, but the wizard (and other casters) is tuned in a way where they are intended to engage in a long, dangerous trudge through all of those dangers, carefully and cautiously choosing when, or if, to use their spells. Fireballing every minor encounter may mean having no fireball for later, which means they might die for wasting resources.The 15 minute adventuring day illustrates the entire problem and contains the solution. Make spells weaker to match the frequency of their use. Combat is going to take the entire session for most groups anyway. If the wizard is supposed to be the spell slinger, approaching all problems with a toolbox full of instant fixes, then let them be a spell slinger. Just don't let them outclass everyone in the limited amount of combat they're actually doing to do in a day.
>>98413762let them cast spells while wearing armor
Mechanics- Magic should not be easy or done willy nilly without cost or consequence. Magic should have its niche, not necessarily be about combat, and definitely shouldn’t be an endless spell list for every conceivable situation. Fluff/flavor - Magic should be mysterious, wonderful and fantastic, even when understood, as this is fucking fantasy. Wizards see the magic in the world, all around. - Wizards should be the ones confronting the mysteries and wonders of the world in depth, being the most cutting edge individuals around. Everyone else is just observing them doing it superficially, and even spells and magics taken for granted (magic potions, magic scrolls, etc) by the muggles aren’t that significant or magical to a wizard who sees such things as old news, old mysteries, etc. Etiquette- Stop. Acting. Like. You’re. Better. Than. Everyone. For. Playing. A. “Smart”. And. “Wise”. Character.
>>98413872He asked how to fix them, not how to ruin them
Have you tried not playing DnDogshit?
>>98413804>The 15 minute adventuring day illustrates the entire problem and contains the solution. Make spells weaker to match the frequency of their use. Combat is going to take the entire session for most groups anyway. If the wizard is supposed to be the spell slinger, approaching all problems with a toolbox full of instant fixes, then let them be a spell slinger. Just don't let them outclass everyone in the limited amount of combat they're actually doing to do in a day.You've just turned wizards into martials with a slightly different flavor.
>>98413762Did we really need a second thread? The other one didn't even reach bump limit
>>98413762Play the second best iteration of D&D, Fourth Edition
>>98413762You don't.They are already good as is and there is nothing that needs be changed
>>98413804>my behavior is the problem, therefore the system must change
>>98413872I fucking hate when everyone has access to fucking potions and scrolls and other magical shit. Why do they even continue to call it magic by that point?
>>98413938Have you looked at what martials are like these days?>>98414246Hilariously, PCs in 5e are not actually built to survive drawn out, repeated attrition by combat. They're built to feel like everyone gets to contribute by taking turns whacking at meatsack monsters, so they can all feel excited every time they get to roll the d20.
>>98414257To be fair, millennials and zoomers today don’t even know how their devices work, they simply know how to work them, only. Phones are wands, apps are spells, etc. That meets the criteria for magic. It’s just not labelled the same way. Second hand exposures (society telling you it’s not magic despite meeting the same essence). Occult infrastructure is everywhere. Humans are blind to the essences that surround them daily, if we’re being quite honest with ourselves. Horseshoe theory. People insisting that you use the words they want you to use (the semantic warfare the trans community resorts to is shockingly alike the semantic warfare the Church resorted to), to make themselves feel better. It doesn’t matter if God is technically an alien/extraterrestrial, the average Christian will still hate you for using the word, or the comparison, same as how they hate it when you call their alleged miracles a form of magic by any other name, even when this is quite literally the case (spirits and demons and pagan gods are intermediaries the same way the Christian God is; any differences by this point are based around the source of the backing, patronage, etc). Gods are sponsors, like rival nations, corporations, etc. Humans can sponsor their own. You don’t need gods or aliens for that. What a lot of people fail to understand is that you can have magic, or the essence of magic, without even using the word, or associated words. “I think that for science fiction, fantasy, and even horror to some extent, the differences are skin-deep. I know there are elements in the field, particularly in science fiction, who feel that the differences are very profound, but I do not agree with that analysis. I think for me it is a matter of the furnishings. An elf or an alien may in some ways fulfill the same function, as a literary trope. It’s almost a matter of flavor. The ice cream can be chocolate or it can be strawberry, but it’s still ice cream.”
Unfortunately, the solution is something people aren't going to like.All considerations of lore and flavor and mysticism are putting the cart before the horse. What you need to do, as your first step, is ask what magic casters are DOING in your system. From a raw mechanics perspective. From an encounter perspective. Are wizards just magic gunmen/archers? Are wizards a catapult you have to take care of and wheel around like a siege weapon? Are they guys who just know a lot of shit that is typically considered heretical and secret that happen to know a weird trick or two to pop off? Are they buffers? Debuffers? Control? You have to figure out the one thing they actually do. Then design the mechanics accordingly. Then we can slap our asses on a piece of paper and shit out some lore for it. But each role had advantages and disadvantages. Glorified magic archers is kind of ho hum but easiest to work with on every level of play. For my dollar, control is the most fun and wizardy feeling but may make encounters TOO SAFE. But whatever you pick, it can't be 'everything'.
>>98413872>Magic should not be easy or done willy nilly without cost or consequence. Fucking this. Why should magic be easy?>Magic should have its niche, not necessarily be about combat, and definitely shouldn’t be an endless spell list for every conceivable situation. Also this. I’m tired of wizards being the ultimate utilarians and the solvers of all things.
>>98413804>but the wizard (and other casters) is tuned in a way where they are intended to engage in a long, dangerous trudge through all of those dangers, carefully and cautiously choosing when, or if, to use their spells.This has always been a horrible design decision because:1. D&D is not balanced at all (Please spare me the comments about how the game doesn't need to be balanced, you're literally suggesting a idea that requires balance to work)2. GMs are not properly instructed how to deal with Wizard's resource management and are just thrown and expected to figure it out.
>>98414547"Everything" is a valid answer if there is sufficient forcing of choice and mutual exclusion at play. Different kinds of casters should have different niches and Wizards ought to be forced to specialize to a degree.
>>98414696Build-A-Bear class design doesn't work, anon. Choose your poison instead.
>>98414547>Unfortunately, the solution is something people aren't going to like.then it's not a solution, retard, the goal of this exercise is to make people like the situation, you just declared you failed as the first sentence and the only part of your post i actually read
>>98414695Case in point: the 5e (2024) solution to this problem that they made no attempts to fix is to offer the advice that maybe the DM shouldn't let the party do a 15 minute adventuring day because the game is kinda lame and boring that way (the way that 99% of their loyal players are currently playing the game and have been for a decade now)
>>98414745On that note, I think design kind of ignores how difficult and tiresome doing a bunch of combats each session is. Granted, you'd only use DnD to have combat. At which point we may have found our source problem.If I were to be less snippity about it, in a real sense if you AREN'T throwing everything you got at the guys currently trying to MURDER YOU exactly what are you doing? The idea I should sandbag 99.9999% of my potency cause we'll have 5 more fights today is gamist and kind of ridiculous besides. Where do these people come out from? The infinite plane of dudes? And frankly the risk of injury SHOULD be all you need to be thankful you didn't stumble past the portal to the infinite plane of dudes. But it wouldn't be DnD if a class can only do combat and literally nothing else. Not even things normal people can just.. do.. because they want to.
>>98414745Which is weird because the problem was already solved in earlier editions. If the party rests in the dungeon, roll to see if they get ambushed by a random encounter, which not only can result in a surprise round if they fail their detection checks, but it also resets the rest timer so no spells get refreshed and any other recovery is cut short. Basically wasting food and time, ending up weaker than before they tried to rest in the middle of enemy territory.And if they leave the dungeon to rest outside, you can still roll to see if they get a random encounter from monsters wandering outside or monsters wandering in the wilderness. And if they go all the way back to town, you can just repopulate the dungeon because wow monsters don't just keep standing in the same place forever and ever, the necromancer summoned more undead, or the evil aura of the dungeon drew more monsters into its halls, or another adventuring party tried to plunder it and now they're pissed at the party showing up on their heels and they have to fight level-appropriate enemy adventurers to regain the progress they surrendered by leaving the dungeon, a very, very dangerous battle compared to most monster encounters.
>>98414827>If I were to be less snippity about it, in a real sense if you AREN'T throwing everything you got at the guys currently trying to MURDER YOU exactly what are you doing? It's understanding the scale of a threat and the appropriate level of force to deal with it. Very important for armies and navies going back thousands of years, since if you burn through all the energy and ammunition (arrows or bullets) your soldiers have by going all-out against small fry, you're just going to be easy pickings when the real problems roll in.
>>98414827>The idea I should sandbag 99.9999% of my potency cause we'll have 5 more fights today is gamist and kind of ridiculous besidesWhat?You should play some early D&D. Resource management was actually one of D&D's strengths and one of the deeper parts of it that actually forced to think about your character in the world.
>>98414827>The idea I should sandbag 99.9999% of my potency cause we'll have 5 more fights today is gamistYeah, that's the entire design of dnd the entire time there's been dnd. You can not like it, but its made to be a game first. There's other games that have very different approaches to magic but overall most of them are going to have some sort of limitations otherwise it gets very boring very quickly when you automatically win everything all the time.
>One class can manipulate the very foundation of the world with their mind>Other class is good at using weapons and is strong, but not too strongListen, no matter how good you are, this is gonna be a tough one to work out.
>>98413804>The 15 minute adventuring day illustrates the entire problem and contains the solution.As was pointed out last time, the 15 minute adventuring day is a nonsense myth perpetuated by white room theory crafters and idiot dungeon masters. If the 15 minute adventuring day is a problem at your table, no it isn't, your shitty, non-reactive world is.
>>98415032WotC's surveys show the vast majority of groups long rest after every encounter and the DM is fine with that. You can solve the issue at your own table, but you can't solve the fact that 5e is designed like dogshit and forces you to solve the problem by putting in extra effort where you, as a DM, shouldn't need to. Because 5e doesn't offer any solutions to the 15 minute adventuring day.
>>98413872Oh, hello, Wonderfag
>>98415042Like limiting long rest to only once per 24 hours?Or by having combat (like, say, a random encounter) or spellcasting ruin the long rest and forcing to start over?Or providing variant rules for long rests taking more time, suited for campaigns with less combat (granted, the rules have other issues)?Because 5e does all that.
>>98415175>Like limiting long rest to only once per 24 hours?"We wait 24 hours until we can long rest again, and then long rest again">Or by having combat (like, say, a random encounter) or spellcasting ruin the long rest and forcing to start over?A thing that is explicitly recommended AGAINST doing by the books, you mean? Can't be spoiling the party's fun, you know>Or providing variant rules for long rests taking more time, suited for campaigns with less combat (granted, the rules have other issues)?You shouldn't have to use variant rules to get a ruleset that isn't as abusable as 5e's standard set is.
>>98415158Stop hating wizards by insisting that all magic must be the same and must ALWAYS be called magic.
>>98415211>"We wait 24 hours until we can long rest again, and then long rest again"Not a rules problem>A thing that is explicitly recommended AGAINST doing by the books, you mean? Can't be spoiling the party's fun, you know[citation needed]>You shouldn't have to use variant rules to get a ruleset that isn't as abusable as 5e's standard set is.The variant rules exist for a reason. The default doesn't fit every group. No default can possibly fit every group.
>>98415242>Not a rules problemIt is a rules problem. You know the 80% of groups that do 15 minute adventuring days? They all use the same excuse. It's a massive glaring oversight.>[citation needed]Why is it always the guy who makes the absurdist claim that demands everyone else produce evidence?>The variant rules exist for a reason. As mere variants they have no value in the actual rules.>The default doesn't fit every group.The default is 15 minute adventuring days. Literally why are you even here? You're arguing in circles. Are you trying to say that 15 minute adventuring days is actually fine and good?
>>98413762Wizards are working as intended.
>>98413762By fixing the rest of D&D.
>>98415042The fact that people play like retards doesn't have a single fucking thing to do with the rules, and I'd love to see these supposed statistics you're quoting, because I don't know a single person who plays like that.
>>98415287>It is a rules problem. You know the 80% of groups that do 15 minute adventuring days? They all use the same excuse. It's a massive glaring oversight.No ruleset can stop retarded assholes from being retarded assholes.>Why is it always the guy who makes the absurdist claim that demands everyone else produce evidence?Why does the guy who makes absurdist claims attempts to avoid providing evidence?>As mere variants they have no value in the actual rules.The variants ARE actual rules. I'd ask if you're retarded, but the answer is obvious.>The default is 15 minute adventuring days.It's not.>Literally why are you even here? You're arguing in circles. Are you trying to say that 15 minute adventuring days is actually fine and good?I'm here to explain to a retard he's a retard and that 15 minute adventuring day is not a style supported by the rules (well, that's not true, there's another rest variant designed specifically for that), much less default. A pointless endeavor, I know, but then I underestimated the depths of your stupidity. Don't worry, it won't happen again.
>>98413762By playing prowlers and paragons, obviously.
>>98414547Obviously, a particular wizard does what the player playing that wizard prefers their particular wizard to do.
>>98414723It does, actually.
>>98414827But the book doesn't instruct you to do a bunch of combats each session. It instruct you to do a bunch of combats per adventuring day.
>>98415480The rules don't stop people from doing one combat and then immediately doing a long rest.
Make magic a resource that is easy to spend but hard to recover.You wake up and start doing rituals to prepare spells. 10 minutes for spell level or more, depending on the spell.No, doing them while walking/riding on a cart doesn't work unless they are very simple compared to your ability or you invest a "character build option" (feat, point buy, class feature, whatever is in your system).No cantrips either, or if you want at-will spells they ought to be very weak and limited in scope, lighting a candle from twenty paces away for example. Or perhaps leave small glowing trails with a chalk but no fire bolt or what have you.You want to still kill something without expending magic? Buy a crossbow.Go back to vancian magic too. You put this spell in this slot, maybe allow some "pseudovancian" for lower level slots when you're experienced enough. You want up casting? You do meta magic.Reduce the power of silver bullet options a little maybe but maybe that's not necessary with what described above.You're a sorcerer? You replenish your magic with rest but you're much more limited in what you can get and how much you can get.Badaboom, now the wizard is a sprinter that can nuke a village if powerful enough, but takes a long time to recover, the martial instead can go long and hard for the entire week but doesn't have the same peaks.
No, you can use your powers as often as you wantand it's balanced.
>>98415612If you don't understand that rules incentivize you have no business talking about rules or games, at all.
>>98413762By making them mechanically work like 1e>d4 HD>spells are limited to what you chose to prepare for the day>declarations at the start of a round of combat and forgetting spells on interruption>cannot stop and long rest after every combat to re-memorize spells>adding new spells to your book is learned through adventuring and finding books or scrolls to copy, not given to you by leveling up>chance of failure when copying books / scrolls>cannot just walk into any run of the mill village and buy magical items and scrolls>no cantrips, ESPECIALLY not combat or light cantrips>reintroduce the risks of spells like the volumetric fireball, lightning arcing backwards or unnatural agingsuddenly the magic user is back in his niche and martials roles are reinforced, just like it used to
Not even close.
Magic bump
