>>98413762
let them cast spells while wearing armor

Mechanics
- Magic should not be easy or done willy nilly without cost or consequence. Magic should have its niche, not necessarily be about combat, and definitely shouldn’t be an endless spell list for every conceivable situation.

Fluff/flavor
- Magic should be mysterious, wonderful and fantastic, even when understood, as this is fucking fantasy. Wizards see the magic in the world, all around.
- Wizards should be the ones confronting the mysteries and wonders of the world in depth, being the most cutting edge individuals around. Everyone else is just observing them doing it superficially, and even spells and magics taken for granted (magic potions, magic scrolls, etc) by the muggles aren’t that significant or magical to a wizard who sees such things as old news, old mysteries, etc.

Etiquette
- Stop. Acting. Like. You’re. Better. Than. Everyone. For. Playing. A. “Smart”. And. “Wise”. Character.

>>98413872
He asked how to fix them, not how to ruin them

Have you tried not playing DnDogshit?

>>98413804
>The 15 minute adventuring day illustrates the entire problem and contains the solution. Make spells weaker to match the frequency of their use. Combat is going to take the entire session for most groups anyway. If the wizard is supposed to be the spell slinger, approaching all problems with a toolbox full of instant fixes, then let them be a spell slinger. Just don't let them outclass everyone in the limited amount of combat they're actually doing to do in a day.
You've just turned wizards into martials with a slightly different flavor.

>>98413762
Did we really need a second thread? The other one didn't even reach bump limit

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>>98413762
Play the second best iteration of D&D, Fourth Edition

>>98413762
You don't.
They are already good as is and there is nothing that needs be changed

>>98413804
>my behavior is the problem, therefore the system must change

>>98413872
I fucking hate when everyone has access to fucking potions and scrolls and other magical shit. Why do they even continue to call it magic by that point?

>>98414257
To be fair, millennials and zoomers today don’t even know how their devices work, they simply know how to work them, only. Phones are wands, apps are spells, etc.

That meets the criteria for magic. It’s just not labelled the same way. Second hand exposures (society telling you it’s not magic despite meeting the same essence). Occult infrastructure is everywhere.

Humans are blind to the essences that surround them daily, if we’re being quite honest with ourselves. Horseshoe theory. People insisting that you use the words they want you to use (the semantic warfare the trans community resorts to is shockingly alike the semantic warfare the Church resorted to), to make themselves feel better. It doesn’t matter if God is technically an alien/extraterrestrial, the average Christian will still hate you for using the word, or the comparison, same as how they hate it when you call their alleged miracles a form of magic by any other name, even when this is quite literally the case (spirits and demons and pagan gods are intermediaries the same way the Christian God is; any differences by this point are based around the source of the backing, patronage, etc). Gods are sponsors, like rival nations, corporations, etc. Humans can sponsor their own. You don’t need gods or aliens for that.

What a lot of people fail to understand is that you can have magic, or the essence of magic, without even using the word, or associated words.

“I think that for science fiction, fantasy, and even horror to some extent, the differences are skin-deep. I know there are elements in the field, particularly in science fiction, who feel that the differences are very profound, but I do not agree with that analysis. I think for me it is a matter of the furnishings. An elf or an alien may in some ways fulfill the same function, as a literary trope. It’s almost a matter of flavor. The ice cream can be chocolate or it can be strawberry, but it’s still ice cream.”

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Unfortunately, the solution is something people aren't going to like.

All considerations of lore and flavor and mysticism are putting the cart before the horse. What you need to do, as your first step, is ask what magic casters are DOING in your system. From a raw mechanics perspective. From an encounter perspective. Are wizards just magic gunmen/archers? Are wizards a catapult you have to take care of and wheel around like a siege weapon? Are they guys who just know a lot of shit that is typically considered heretical and secret that happen to know a weird trick or two to pop off? Are they buffers? Debuffers? Control?

You have to figure out the one thing they actually do. Then design the mechanics accordingly. Then we can slap our asses on a piece of paper and shit out some lore for it.

But each role had advantages and disadvantages. Glorified magic archers is kind of ho hum but easiest to work with on every level of play. For my dollar, control is the most fun and wizardy feeling but may make encounters TOO SAFE. But whatever you pick, it can't be 'everything'.

>>98413872
>Magic should not be easy or done willy nilly without cost or consequence.
Fucking this. Why should magic be easy?
>Magic should have its niche, not necessarily be about combat, and definitely shouldn’t be an endless spell list for every conceivable situation.
Also this. I’m tired of wizards being the ultimate utilarians and the solvers of all things.

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>>98413804
>but the wizard (and other casters) is tuned in a way where they are intended to engage in a long, dangerous trudge through all of those dangers, carefully and cautiously choosing when, or if, to use their spells.
This has always been a horrible design decision because:
1. D&D is not balanced at all (Please spare me the comments about how the game doesn't need to be balanced, you're literally suggesting a idea that requires balance to work)
2. GMs are not properly instructed how to deal with Wizard's resource management and are just thrown and expected to figure it out.

>>98414547
"Everything" is a valid answer if there is sufficient forcing of choice and mutual exclusion at play. Different kinds of casters should have different niches and Wizards ought to be forced to specialize to a degree.

>>98414696
Build-A-Bear class design doesn't work, anon. Choose your poison instead.

>>98414547
>Unfortunately, the solution is something people aren't going to like.
then it's not a solution, retard, the goal of this exercise is to make people like the situation, you just declared you failed as the first sentence and the only part of your post i actually read

>>98414745
On that note, I think design kind of ignores how difficult and tiresome doing a bunch of combats each session is. Granted, you'd only use DnD to have combat. At which point we may have found our source problem.

If I were to be less snippity about it, in a real sense if you AREN'T throwing everything you got at the guys currently trying to MURDER YOU exactly what are you doing? The idea I should sandbag 99.9999% of my potency cause we'll have 5 more fights today is gamist and kind of ridiculous besides. Where do these people come out from? The infinite plane of dudes? And frankly the risk of injury SHOULD be all you need to be thankful you didn't stumble past the portal to the infinite plane of dudes.

But it wouldn't be DnD if a class can only do combat and literally nothing else. Not even things normal people can just.. do.. because they want to.

>>98414745
Which is weird because the problem was already solved in earlier editions. If the party rests in the dungeon, roll to see if they get ambushed by a random encounter, which not only can result in a surprise round if they fail their detection checks, but it also resets the rest timer so no spells get refreshed and any other recovery is cut short. Basically wasting food and time, ending up weaker than before they tried to rest in the middle of enemy territory.
And if they leave the dungeon to rest outside, you can still roll to see if they get a random encounter from monsters wandering outside or monsters wandering in the wilderness. And if they go all the way back to town, you can just repopulate the dungeon because wow monsters don't just keep standing in the same place forever and ever, the necromancer summoned more undead, or the evil aura of the dungeon drew more monsters into its halls, or another adventuring party tried to plunder it and now they're pissed at the party showing up on their heels and they have to fight level-appropriate enemy adventurers to regain the progress they surrendered by leaving the dungeon, a very, very dangerous battle compared to most monster encounters.

>>98414827
>If I were to be less snippity about it, in a real sense if you AREN'T throwing everything you got at the guys currently trying to MURDER YOU exactly what are you doing?
It's understanding the scale of a threat and the appropriate level of force to deal with it. Very important for armies and navies going back thousands of years, since if you burn through all the energy and ammunition (arrows or bullets) your soldiers have by going all-out against small fry, you're just going to be easy pickings when the real problems roll in.

>>98414827
>The idea I should sandbag 99.9999% of my potency cause we'll have 5 more fights today is gamist and kind of ridiculous besides
What?
You should play some early D&D. Resource management was actually one of D&D's strengths and one of the deeper parts of it that actually forced to think about your character in the world.

>>98414827
>The idea I should sandbag 99.9999% of my potency cause we'll have 5 more fights today is gamist
Yeah, that's the entire design of dnd the entire time there's been dnd. You can not like it, but its made to be a game first. There's other games that have very different approaches to magic but overall most of them are going to have some sort of limitations otherwise it gets very boring very quickly when you automatically win everything all the time.

>One class can manipulate the very foundation of the world with their mind
>Other class is good at using weapons and is strong, but not too strong
Listen, no matter how good you are, this is gonna be a tough one to work out.

>>98413804
>The 15 minute adventuring day illustrates the entire problem and contains the solution.
As was pointed out last time, the 15 minute adventuring day is a nonsense myth perpetuated by white room theory crafters and idiot dungeon masters. If the 15 minute adventuring day is a problem at your table, no it isn't, your shitty, non-reactive world is.

>>98415032
WotC's surveys show the vast majority of groups long rest after every encounter and the DM is fine with that. You can solve the issue at your own table, but you can't solve the fact that 5e is designed like dogshit and forces you to solve the problem by putting in extra effort where you, as a DM, shouldn't need to. Because 5e doesn't offer any solutions to the 15 minute adventuring day.

>>98413872
Oh, hello, Wonderfag

>>98415042
Like limiting long rest to only once per 24 hours?
Or by having combat (like, say, a random encounter) or spellcasting ruin the long rest and forcing to start over?
Or providing variant rules for long rests taking more time, suited for campaigns with less combat (granted, the rules have other issues)?

Because 5e does all that.

>>98415175
>Like limiting long rest to only once per 24 hours?
"We wait 24 hours until we can long rest again, and then long rest again"
>Or by having combat (like, say, a random encounter) or spellcasting ruin the long rest and forcing to start over?
A thing that is explicitly recommended AGAINST doing by the books, you mean? Can't be spoiling the party's fun, you know
>Or providing variant rules for long rests taking more time, suited for campaigns with less combat (granted, the rules have other issues)?
You shouldn't have to use variant rules to get a ruleset that isn't as abusable as 5e's standard set is.

>>98415158
Stop hating wizards by insisting that all magic must be the same and must ALWAYS be called magic.

>>98415211
>"We wait 24 hours until we can long rest again, and then long rest again"
Not a rules problem
>A thing that is explicitly recommended AGAINST doing by the books, you mean? Can't be spoiling the party's fun, you know
[citation needed]
>You shouldn't have to use variant rules to get a ruleset that isn't as abusable as 5e's standard set is.
The variant rules exist for a reason. The default doesn't fit every group. No default can possibly fit every group.

>>98415242
>Not a rules problem
It is a rules problem. You know the 80% of groups that do 15 minute adventuring days? They all use the same excuse. It's a massive glaring oversight.
>[citation needed]
Why is it always the guy who makes the absurdist claim that demands everyone else produce evidence?
>The variant rules exist for a reason.
As mere variants they have no value in the actual rules.
>The default doesn't fit every group.
The default is 15 minute adventuring days. Literally why are you even here? You're arguing in circles. Are you trying to say that 15 minute adventuring days is actually fine and good?

>>98413762
Wizards are working as intended.

>>98413762
By fixing the rest of D&D.

>>98415042
The fact that people play like retards doesn't have a single fucking thing to do with the rules, and I'd love to see these supposed statistics you're quoting, because I don't know a single person who plays like that.

>>98415287
>It is a rules problem. You know the 80% of groups that do 15 minute adventuring days? They all use the same excuse. It's a massive glaring oversight.
No ruleset can stop retarded assholes from being retarded assholes.
>Why is it always the guy who makes the absurdist claim that demands everyone else produce evidence?
Why does the guy who makes absurdist claims attempts to avoid providing evidence?
>As mere variants they have no value in the actual rules.
The variants ARE actual rules. I'd ask if you're retarded, but the answer is obvious.
>The default is 15 minute adventuring days.
It's not.
>Literally why are you even here? You're arguing in circles. Are you trying to say that 15 minute adventuring days is actually fine and good?
I'm here to explain to a retard he's a retard and that 15 minute adventuring day is not a style supported by the rules (well, that's not true, there's another rest variant designed specifically for that), much less default. A pointless endeavor, I know, but then I underestimated the depths of your stupidity. Don't worry, it won't happen again.

>>98413762
By playing prowlers and paragons, obviously.

>>98414547
Obviously, a particular wizard does what the player playing that wizard prefers their particular wizard to do.

>>98414723
It does, actually.

>>98414827
But the book doesn't instruct you to do a bunch of combats each session. It instruct you to do a bunch of combats per adventuring day.

Make magic a resource that is easy to spend but hard to recover.

You wake up and start doing rituals to prepare spells. 10 minutes for spell level or more, depending on the spell.
No, doing them while walking/riding on a cart doesn't work unless they are very simple compared to your ability or you invest a "character build option" (feat, point buy, class feature, whatever is in your system).
No cantrips either, or if you want at-will spells they ought to be very weak and limited in scope, lighting a candle from twenty paces away for example. Or perhaps leave small glowing trails with a chalk but no fire bolt or what have you.
You want to still kill something without expending magic? Buy a crossbow.

Go back to vancian magic too. You put this spell in this slot, maybe allow some "pseudovancian" for lower level slots when you're experienced enough. You want up casting? You do meta magic.

Reduce the power of silver bullet options a little maybe but maybe that's not necessary with what described above.

You're a sorcerer? You replenish your magic with rest but you're much more limited in what you can get and how much you can get.

Badaboom, now the wizard is a sprinter that can nuke a village if powerful enough, but takes a long time to recover, the martial instead can go long and hard for the entire week but doesn't have the same peaks.

No, you can use your powers as often as you wantand it's balanced.

>>98415612
If you don't understand that rules incentivize you have no business talking about rules or games, at all.

>>98413762
By making them mechanically work like 1e
>d4 HD
>spells are limited to what you chose to prepare for the day
>declarations at the start of a round of combat and forgetting spells on interruption
>cannot stop and long rest after every combat to re-memorize spells
>adding new spells to your book is learned through adventuring and finding books or scrolls to copy, not given to you by leveling up
>chance of failure when copying books / scrolls
>cannot just walk into any run of the mill village and buy magical items and scrolls
>no cantrips, ESPECIALLY not combat or light cantrips
>reintroduce the risks of spells like the volumetric fireball, lightning arcing backwards or unnatural aging
suddenly the magic user is back in his niche and martials roles are reinforced, just like it used to

Not even close.

Magic bump

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>>98415612
>>98415242
>>98415032
1) From an in-universe strategic perspective, if someone has very useful powers that protect and help you and regain them by resting and there is not a time pressure, you should let them rest. The characters in-setting would be in favor of resting the wizard.

2) From a narrative perspective, you very rarely get into more than 1-2 fights a day. It simply does not make sense to assume you get jumped by bandits at 9 AM then a dragon swoops down at 2 PM and then at 9 you go to the nobleman's ball for a big showdown and then when you go to set up camp you get jumped by orcs and holy fuck I'm only at four encounters and I'm trying to be facetious. I have literally never been at a table or in a group where the game is run in a 4+ encounter a day structure.

If one person uses your game 'wrong', you can say they're an asshole. If everyone does, its a problem in your product. D&D needs to rebalance around the way people actually play it. Even back in the day when resource management was a big deal, wizards had less spells/day at low levels and required long periods of downtime to prepare spells at high levels (effectively turning it into spells/few days). And it was *still* correctly remarked upon at the time that the wizard was strongest and the limit difficult to enforce in a reasonable way by the DM.

>>98415223
You sound like a cunt who needs to touch grass

>>98421366
>there is not a time pressure
Aaaaand here's your problem. Even if there's no time pressure, the characters in setting probably have better things to do than to sit on their hands waiting for the faggot in a dress to recharge. He shouldn't have dumped everything on the first kobold he ran into.

>I have literally never been at a table or in a group where the game is run in a 4+ encounter a day structure.
Well, obviously, since you're a nogames. Haven't you ever been in a dungeon? Even the stupid modern 5-room dungeon design crap has more than 4 encounters. It's even in the name!

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>>98413762
I would get rid of the idea of cantrips.

Instead of cantrips, the Wizard would have a set of built in spells that are as ultimately generic versions of the different schools as possible if we're going to stick with the "school" concept.

In this setup, the base spells represent the generalist wizard and there would be options to modify them as a matter of course along with sub-class specific modifications unique to whatever school they are a part of.

For instance, the basic Abjuration spell would be a simple barrier. However, you could have options such as chaning the size and shape or use it to create a force cage like effect. Going the abjuration route would give you even more options like making them more durable or even adding other school effects to them (i.e. combine with necromancy to create a barrier that blocks necromany spells to the exclusion of all others).

To put it basically, meta-magic like effects that the sorcerer has would be inherited by the wizard and applied accordingly.

>>98417583
>cannot stop and long rest after every combat to re-memorize spells
>cannot just walk into any run of the mill village and buy magical items and scrolls
These are both possible in 1e. It's entirely up to the DM to enforce risks or consequences to excessive resting in every edition, even 4e, and there are no rules barring it. Alternatively, don't play any edition of D&D if you need an explicit published rule against it.

>>98424329
>Players drop it for being too complex

>>98424565
It really doesn't have to be complex. The actions are specific to the spell level that your wizard should be at and, in anycase, if they are that stricken by choice paralysis then they are already tripping over themselves just to cast a simple fireball or panic and choose to swing their wizard staff.

Already balanced in my game with zero resource requirements.

>>98413938
>You've just turned wizards into martials with a slightly different flavor.
It works for Mage: the Ascension.

>>98413872
>- Stop. Acting. Like. You’re. Better. Than. Everyone. For. Playing. A. “Smart”. And. “Wise”. Character.
Never. It is my birthright.

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If you wanted a genuine commitment to balance that matched how most sessions are played in reality while avoiding book keeping nightmares....

You'd make them mostly competent melee with a small stock of spells per day. So casting fireball is your big moment of the day, but most times you're just hitting stuff. With your sword. Your swordsmanship needs to be passable enough to not resort to slinging spells at everything. Spells need to be lucrative enough that the choice to unload saves the party time and other resources in a real sense. Spells per day are going to be single digits, though.

Move non combat magic in to ritual style magic. 4E was actually on to something with that. THAT is what is in your spell book. This also eliminates issues with combat and utility sharing living quarters.

Granted, I think most people would object to wizards resorting to mundane means in any situation. You all want to cast a spell every time your turn comes up, right? That's what you're here for. Not to be a shitty swordsman with 3/4ths BAB most turns. The dream is to do everything with magic. Right?

>>98426908
Nope, already balanced with no resources.

>>98426908
unacceptable, if you're gonna swordfight just play a fighter

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I've been using a DCC styled system that has a chance to permanently maime wizards who roll poorly. That more than anything else seems to have casters think twice about every spell

>>98429506
No.

>>98429506
In 3.5 terms, it would be a 3/4th BAB class. So, no, not a fighter. Also this is the kind of objection I predicted.

>>98429609
Perils in Dark Heresy always worked for that and Psykers. Technically no limit to how often you can spam stuff. Just need the testicular fortitude to roll for it. You can also manifest weak stuff with no risk (weak being dependent on your relative strength) as much as you want. Letting you plink all day then risk a big spell for emergencies. Rest cycles are no longer a matter of meta gaming.

You pick up a different problem. Everyone at your table screaming you down any time you say you're going to try something. Which is why I ended up as a character wielding and evsicerator instead.

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>>98424215
1) Despite it being in the name, dungeon crawls became less popular than wilderness play 40 years ago. Most people have them as the exception.

2) Dungeons don't work well with 5E. Because short rests are an entire hour and wandering monsters wander and intelligent ones rush upstairs when the first fight happens, you have no chance for the martials to recharge. So if you DO have several encounters in a dungeon, they're more accurately one big encounter with a bit of exploration in between. If you build a dungeon where multiple 1 hour rests are reasonable but a single 8 hour one isn't, you've basically made a video game. With all that said I did run a dungeon in 5e back during the playtest in...shit 2014, will post the dungeon. It basically turned into a dog pile halfway through when the alarm was raised and the barbarian ended up fighting way too many goblins in a narrow doorway before everyone bailed.

>The Goblin Barrow
>Entrance: A diagonal hole in the ground leading in. It is unguarded.
>Room 1: Intermediate mostly empty room, there are 6 goblins milling about in here. The hallway leading to room 2 is trapped with a wire that causes an axe to swing by dealing 1d12+3 damage. DC 10 Search to notice, DC 10 Reflex to avoid.
>Room 2: The treasure room. There are four chests full of loot in here. One is trapped with a dart release trap [DC 12 Search to Notice DC 13 Reflex to avoid, 3d4+3 Damage]
>Room 3: A storage closet. A bee's wax trap is set above the door [Disadvantage until cleaned off], DC 10 Reflex to avoid.
>Room 4: A dungeon for keeping and torturing captives. A level 3 halfling mage is in here. His spellbook was burnt up by a Burning Hands, and he came in with the hobbit with the magic dagger. They got seperated, and he's been here ever since.
>Room 5: The shit-room, full of feces and dirty rags. There is 8 Giant Centipedes in this room who do not attack unless provoked. One of the centipede's is wearing a silver collar worth 77 silver.
>1/?

>>98430163
>Room 6: The mate-quarters. There is a secret trap door in this room leading to an escape route the goblin females and young took.
>Room 7: The Dining Room. Upon closer inspection the chandelier is encrusted with 20 gems of various types, worth 6g each. There are tens goblins in here eating, and there is a small cooking area and a fireplace. Only four of the goblins are armed, the rest will attempt to flee further in, or attack with cutlery.
>Room 8: An intermediate room with 8 goblins milling about. The center of the room is a pit trap with a DC 10 Search to notice, if one falls in one takes 2d10 damage. DC 11 Reflex to avoid.
>Room 9: The "throne room". The throne is made of marble and the goblin leader has a shaman with him if the shaman wasn't encountered earlier, along with 3 goblins.
>Room 10: The shaman's room. His spellbook is laying on a stone table, trapped to electrute [as Shocking Grasp] anyone who removes it from the table.
>Room 11: A weapon storage. There is a dead halfling in this room, a skeleton by now. He is carrying Alabarr, the Goblin-Knife. It is a +1 Magic Shortsword with the following abilities. Goblins who attack the wielder have Disadvantage. As an action the wielder can 'repel' goblins within 30 feet, causing them to make a DC 10 Wisdom Check or flee to the edge of the barrier and stay there at least one round.
>Room 12: A chapel to their goblinoid god, an Imp named Botis the Filthy. Praying to the statue, or reading its name aloud from its forehead, causes its statue to come to life. It starts with a neutral disposition to the party, but shows a distaste for elves. Destroying his statue while he's inert causes the room to seal and fill with poison gas, dealing 1d4 damage a round until the party escapes. The party can hold their breathe to avoid taking the damage, but only for a number of minutes equal to their CON modifier [minimum 30 seconds].
>2/?

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>>98430169
>Room 13: This room has a morbidely obese goblin in it, who starts out neutral to the party. He speaks some common, and if threatened or persuaded he will tell the party the way to the throne room.
>Room 14: A meeting room. A single podium in the center, more of a mound. There are at least 7 Goblins in here.
>Room 15: A goblin barracks with at least 5 goblins in it.
>Room 16: This room is barred and locked. Inside it is an Ogre chewing on a goblin's head. He is not facing the door when the party opens it, and his club is against the wall to his back. If he notices the party he will chase them, but he cannot fit through the tunnel to escape. If charmed he will reveal his name is Zog, and he was captured by the goblins while very young. When he grew too big to control, they locked him in here, and now he is too big to leave. He speaks goblin with a broken accent, and giant fluently [though still in third person].
>Room 17: An armor storage, most of it does not fit the party unless they are Halfling. There is a strange potion in the corner.

Green: Entrance
Red: Trap

I notice I still used some Pathfinder terminology in my notes, since that's what I was playing at the time. But yeah, just turned into a big dogpile. Dungeons where you can short rest but not long rest don't really make sense. Just turn into dogpiles. I was going for kind of an OSR hexcrawl kind of thing at the time, only lasted like 12 sessions but it was neat.

:)

>>98417583
adding to this
>1E wizard uses all his extra gold he saved from not buying weapons and armour to stock up on a bunch of oil flasks/torches and huck them at enemies. Level 1 fireball spell

>>98430135
>i predicted my idea that people who don't want to swordfight should swordfight would be rejected
wow you're a real genius aren't you

Wizards are gay

>>98413762
Colored mana system. Spells don't have usage limits but instead cost mana. Eg 2 fire 1 water, or 2 unaligned 1 earth. Mana fully refreshes after a long rest.

How to fix wizards?
Spell components only. Cantrips are the only spell that don't require any components.
Don't have any?
I guess only cantrips for you!

>>98436645
Yes, but only because spunking in one another's arses keeps their "mana" in a closed loop circulating between each other.

Spooge into a woman and all that magical power gets sucked into the uterus to make a baby.

Duh.

>>98436655
Make players draw their mana from a set of cards each turn for good measure. As the fight goes on, you can cast more powerful spells. Though you also may not get the 'color' you need and have to use what you get.

Ah fuck it's wonderfag again

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>>98424329
3.5e bros, why do people keep going back to us?

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>>98443490
In spite of it's flaws there are, and were, a lot of good ideas and interesting experiments that could have been interesting if they were refined. They had a butt load of ideas to draw upon for 5e and this is what they come up with.

You can’t

>>98448057
>the entire magic system being so broken it ruined the entire fucking game.
you say that, but the magic system is pretty much the only good thing that stands out about dnd, it has a blend of diverse and well-defined spells that just don't exist elsewhere, not even in games specifically made with magic front and center like the white wolf mage games, meanwhile all the other nonsense about adventuring is found in hundreds of other games

Something that would fix a lot of Wizards' problems is to remember that they're supposed to be academic in nature, whether institutional or self-taught. Bards kind of scooped up a lot of their lore role, but their fields of knowledge should be extremely different. I noticed in 3rd edition that a room full of Wizards likely have relatively similar spell lists, in spite of Wizard supposedly being an extremely broad term with literal "schools" of disparate thought and endeavor. This would be like putting a random selection of PhDs in a room and assuming if one of them wrote a thesis on biology, then all of the engineers/mathematicians/etc should have working knowledge of that field by default.

Funnily, 3.x era Psionics fixed this by putting all the best psionic powers in separate 'specialist' lists that you could only select from if that was your specialty discipline. The Wizard equivalent would be like if only Evokers could learn Fireball, only Transmutationists could learn Disintegrate, and only Conjurers could learn Gate. This would help a lot in differentiating Wizards both mechanically and in lore as an entire field of studies with only minimal overlap.

>>98448144
>can't even play as a pure frost mage

L O L

>>98443490
they don't.

>>98414257
because it's magic, dipshit.

>>98414547
fortunately my game doesn't have classes, so I don't have this problem.

>>98432054
oh yeah that's what I want to do when I write Magic Guy on my sheet, not use fucking magic! brilliant!

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>>98448270
The thing is, what constitutes a good idea in DnD is very narrow. By design. You can act like you have other options, but in truth the system itself is vastly against you. Sure a DM can adjust around however you decide to play, but that doesn't counter the point, does it. So casters, despite seemingly having so many options, all do the same thing. Only the one things works, and any cope otherwise will be beaten out of you campaign by campaign.

Other classes don't have it any better. They just have less total options to sift through.

>>98448057
Honestly, I wonder if so much book keeping is even okay. Even if you want a sim heavy game, is that really going to go well? DnD doesn't even do the sim well either, does it?

What if instead of tracking every little thing, we abstract more? Spitballing an example, your cart/mule has your basic supplies on it and is assumed to have all basic necessities. If you're worried about the DM being a dick and having your supplies stolen while you're in a cave, you have a checkbox called "paid for hirelings" that prevents them from being swooced for any reason (making it clear it's the DM violating the rules if he does otherwise). What do we do with gold? It's not used as money. It's your XP now. You're assumed to always have enough money for basic walking around shit. You need gold to level because this is an extra special activity. It buys you whatever training or unique materials or whatever to 'level up'. You spend all you can on leveling and maybe a few cool parties. Hires cost you a fixed amount of your total treasure upon coming back from the quest you finished. So less XP but more basic assurance. You want the hires cause losing the cart loses your XP anyway.

With that done, we can trim all the stupid crap from the lists that only exist to cheat economics of survival sims. Focus more on what DnD actually does well.

>>98450788
My game doesn't track mundane stuff by default, and there is no advancement. Currency can be spent on exotic varieties of ammunition for ship cannons, hiring mercenaries, repairs, improving weapons, and consumable items that can grant access to any power in the book.

>>98448556
Magic is just a label to you? Wow. You’re the fucking dipshit here.

Wizards don't need fixing
If martials want to cry "it's not fair" so badly they can go and play some weaboo Chinese rpg or another

>>98455007
The last two games to give martial caster parity were 4e and pf2
One made everyone a caster de facto since everyone is running the same immediate/encounter/daily set of powers, and does weaboo shit like "uuuh you can mind control (taunt) people to attack you because reason"
And pf2 just decided to be so balanced it balanced the fun out of the game

You want to do something better than either?
Here.
Take all the fighter/rogue/barbarian class features and compress them in just 10 levels.
For level 11+ you can either get another 10 levels in a different martial class or take 10 levels in a caster class
Casters level 1-20 normally

>>98455097
That sounds like it’s just doubling down on the problems than even pretending to fix anything.

>>98455121
It's a return to ad&d if anything, where magic users took more experience to level up.
This does more or less does the same thing. A fighting man/thief only gets to level 10 but gets it's previously 20 levels worth of exclusive stuff (bonus feats or whatnot for example)

>>98453723
dipshit.

>>98457015
I motion we keep a hammer on the game table, and any time someone plays a wizard their hands have to be hit by the hammer. One time, per hand, for every roll they make. Including all character gen rolls.

There. I've solved the problem.

>>98455007
>Guy that swing sword good
>Guy that swing axe good
>Guy that sneak good
>All three implied or outright stated to not be doing anything supernatural

>Totally have to measure up the same as (but without doing some bullshit anime weaboo crap btw):

>Guy that calls down the power of fucking God
>Guy with reality warping arcane might
>Guy that can command nature itself

Truly a question for the ages

>>98457974
>>All three implied or outright stated to not be doing anything supernatural

Bold faced lie going back to the first editions.

>>98458061
Prove it, go on, show me where the thief or fighting man are said to be using magic. Not magic items, actual abra-kadabra-alakazam type magic like a magic user.

I'll wait

>>98416204
You, as the gamemaster, should give the players reasons why they can't just sleep for eight hours for free without consequence any time they want to. You're complaining about the game being Skyrim while allowing the game to play like Skyrim.

>>98464433
So you can't do it?

>>98464518
So you can't do it?

what's wrong with spell regen?
mana replaced 'I memorized it' decades ago
lower the pool size
limit the wizard to what they memorized on that rest
give them a few spell levels back every hour, scaling with wizard level
you could also just leave it exactly as it is

finite resources not needed, of course.

>>98466743
Can they fly? No.
Can they lift great weights? No, in fact they can lift less than pro strongmen.
Can they run faster than a horse? No.
Can they leap over a chasm? Only if the chasm is small.
Can they run on walls, snatch arrows out of the air or punch ghosts? No and in fact all of that is something the weaboo shit class aka monk does.

You say that "oh but they can survive damage and fight well" yeah newsflash hp increase is something all classes do and even in od&d the magic user could eventually fight quite a few normal people with a sword, not as many as a cleric or a fighting man but still could.

But keep saying how having a bit more hp or being able to swing a sword better totally compares to calling down divine power or bringing arcane might to bear.

>>98467594
besides flying everything else is available in 3rd edition for all martials

>>98468078
Yes, and even if extraordinary it still is not as good as telling reality to bend over and take it.

It's like having actual fucking spells or divine/nature power is better than being a somewhat stronger normie, but martialchuds gotta mald somehow

>>98468417
Always seemed more that the people’s who play dedicated magic users are handled with kids gloves by the GMs who allow them to play as walking nukes rather than anything approaching intelligent wise scholars who judiciously apply their craft.

4e already fixed wizards. Making everyone's abilities use the same mechanics fixed the game but then 5e went backwards and ruined it again. Fuck WotC.

>>98468881
/thread

>>98468881
The issue is that they don't want functional, party friendly wizards, they want to keep all of the game breaking capacity, just make it harder to achieve.
The point is to gatekeep people who haven't researched enough.

>>98468997
The people I usually play d&d with are people like me who started in the 00s who stopped reading new books during 4e. I almost joined a new 5e group a few months ago because my usually group is in a dry spell due to scheduling but after I found out half the players were 16yo boys I declined the invitation because I don't want to be drinking around kids let alone if they start asking me to buy beer for them.

>>98466743
So you can't do it?

>>98468621
You won't actually provide any specific examples, of course, since none exist.

>>98469319
>>98454455

>>98468784
>No argument, resorts to cherry picking
Sad

>>98468881
This. My group continued to play 4e into 5e before I broke apart because 2 of the guys got married and stopped having permission to show up because they both married controlling women.

>>98469051
I have continued reading new books, just for different games.
Different WoD/CotD games, Awaken, 40k rpgs, Traveller, Star Wars rpgs, Blades in the Dark. I never read a 5e book, and never will, because I decided that after 20 some years, I was tired of learning different ways to play D&D.
Helps that my group rotates GMs and are down to try anything.

>>98469427
>Helps that my group rotates GMs and are down to try anything.
I am more or less my groups forever GM, only twice in nearly 20 years did someone else run a game. Have have however tried multiple systems (40k RPGs and Traveller).

>>98469051
You made the right choice not joining that group. You never mentioned your own age but if you are going to be drinking at the table not playing with 16yos is probably the right choice. When I was in highschool during my senior year I was a year older than everyone else and could buy alcohol and you would not believe the lengths people went to to get me to buy it for them.

>>98469723
So you can't do it?

>>98469788
This is why 4e was the best balanced edition by a mile. People, DMs in particular, who bitch endlessly here about balancing around Wizards and Clerics are playing the wrong fucking edition.

>>98469827
TBF the magic of being able to fight in the melee with like 10 dudes at once and come out fine is kinda shit when compared to "wipe a city block off the map". And that's without the whole "summon a monster/outsider that is just as good at being a beatstick"

>>98469842
Back in 3.5 the best was Summon Monster III Celestial Bison. Not only was it better than the party fighter but it could cast Cure Moderate Wounds 3/day. Made half the party feel useless.

>>98464460
>>98465025
>>98469312
>>98469788
There is a difference between saying "They are not magical/supernatural enough for the game to be balanced" and "They are not magic". The fact the only superhuman power fighters get is in fighting ability and not in athleticism or other places is exactly why people think wizards need fixing.

>>98470000
Wizards are fine. It's Martials that need better mechanics.

>>98470036
The right Conjuration or evocation spells can quickly turn a city block into a graveyard, depending on the edition. Maybe it won't happen in one action but it'll far outstrip the level of devastation that a similarly leveled martial is able to cause in the same amount of time

>>98470036
>>98470081
You are both being stupid. This is a settled issue no matter how many slide threads push this discussion.
>>98468881 is the only person speaking any sense here.

>>98470109
>The person arguing in favour for the ultrabland "d&d vidyagaym edition" is the only one speaking sense

R u having a giggle M8?

Just accept that there is a gap between what certain characters can accomplish and tweak the leveling requirements accordingly

>>98470242
There is nothing more bland than your bullshit human male fighter crap. It's the martials that need to be fixed, not casters.

>>98470585
Not him but for example: 3.5 Fireball explicitly stated that "all combustible materials are ignited". In a village of thatched straw roofed wooden cottages that means everything in the radius is immediately on fire. There are no firefighting spells the local adept might have to deal with it either so it will burn and spread easily.

>>98471654
But with the radius of the fireball spell it becomes an entire block destroyed in a single turn. That is exactly what they were looking for an example of.

>>98413762
We go FULL VANCIAN.

Wizards can prepare a number of spells (of any level they want) equal to their Intelligence bonus.

A level 10 wizard like Mazirian? He probably has Int 18. That's 4 spells.

>>98471672
All they need to do is craft a few dozen scrolls in their downtime.

I reiterate: 4e already found the solution and made all class abilities follow the same mechanics. I don't care how many of you idiots compare 4e to a video game, it fixed the problem.

>>98471687
Yes, that's much better (although Vance did the same thing with bound genies). Now there are plotlines for a rogue to set the mansion on fire, pickpocket your scroll bandolier, oh no you ran out of magic ink and are in hock to the thieves guild etc.

>>98448270
I don't think the play is to lock wizards out of certain spells because of what school they choose but to instead gatekeep extra options you could do with them.

Even if we had to keep it as ultra basic bitch as possible you could do something like not allowing spells outside of your chosen school to be placed into higher spell slots or you could add options onto spells that can only be accessed by someone of that school.

That said, I do hate the idea of using schools as subclasses and should be something built into the main class but that's an entirely different matter.

>>98413762
Determine if we want martials to be caster-tier, or if we want casters to be martial-tier.

If the former, add in abilities to represent the sort of insane shit heroes get upto in stories, rather than one gimmick per martial that covers just a tiny facet of physical prowess. If we really want parity, give martials 'techniques' that function as something like a spell equivalent, recovering in a comparable amount of time, but more limited thematically.

If we want to break the caster's kneecaps; reduce the maximum levels of their spell lists, hard require specific material components that they have to use for spells, and have the use of magic cause negative repercussions (bright obvious beacon to the bad kind of supernatural stuff, accidentally summoning things you can't easily put back, magical sicknesses, pseudo-curses that harm the magic user until he regains spell slots, et cetera).

>>98470000
>>98469827
>>98469801
So you can't do it?

>>98472311
Nope, no tiers. There are no arbitrary divisions between character concepts.

>>98472311
>Determine if we want weaboo shit or if we should play mage the awakening where you can't do shit without the world fucking you over and so you might as well not have magic

How about no?

>>98473113
How about yes? Thems the breaks. Either makes martials Exalts or make magic weak or make it risk. Safe, powerful, easy, plentiful magic of the sort in D&D straight up does not work if the other guys are medieval knights who are moderately better at fighting.

>>98472594
Just did, sorry you missed it.

what if wizards needed martials to actually really use their spells , but they kept their power.

>>98477007
It has been working perfectly since OD&D

>>98477160
what if martials are spell components and you need to have different sorts of relationships with martials of different personalities to cast different schools of spells

>>98477659
That sounds like some pbta shit

>>98414832
The only real issue I have with using encounters as punishment like that is twofold mainly, going by my experience in 3.PF.
A. In early levels before healing is easily common, this punishes non-casters more heavily than it does casters, since half the time we had to rest was generally because our front-line was on death's door, not because our casters ran out of juice.
B. In later levels where healing is easy and they ARE just resting to let the casters recharge, this just ends up making the party more paranoid and resting more frequently because now they need to have a stockpile of spells ready for the nighttime ambushes.

Make them unbearably overpowered intentionally

>>98479641
This tbqh

>>98477625
OD&D and AD&D had far more restrictions on magic users, included domain play for martials as standard, and even there it was widely acknowledged by DMs and publications of the time that wizards dominate the late game.

>>98482480
And it worked perfectly fine then and it works perfectly fine now

>>98484403
because almost nobody ever gets to the lategame

Dumb and gay

>>98413762
We start by defining the issues, otherwise I can only offer total alteration and rework. Since it's dnd, the whole engine has to go.

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>>98414635
Are you retarded? They're motherfucking wizards. WIZARDS! They should have a spell for every problem because that's their fucking job! They aren't just there to throw fireballs. They're in your party to provide UTILITY!

>>98487167
This tbqh

>>98413762
They need to bring back casting times again so I can run up to a lich while he's charging his evil nigger killing nuke and I rotate his ass onto the ground.

What are the issues with the current magic systems in TTRPGS? Resources? Ease of use? Delete everything AOE’s? Useless spells used once for plot purposes? Simplicity?

I think before any decent discussion on how magic as a system should be modified or expanded, the role of a wizard should be clearly defined for your scenario. In typical DND Wizards basically get a few pocket nukes/buffs they throw out in an encounter mirroring what barbarian can do with rage etc, and everyone ends up wanting to have a long rest after a big encounter, basically turning a wizard into a burst damage AOE ranged user which is part of the core issue. Why is this bad compared to traditional melee or shooting arrows? Is it because the spells are powerful, but long rests negate the limited uses? Is it because it’s too effective for most encounters?

The balancing act is that most people don't want to deal with wizards being an AOE archer with components being arrows etc, nor have “spells with punishment” consequences where every cast or constant cast is a gamble, nor a parasite class that buffs melee users more useful than them. Most games are also pressured to be streamlined so that people can quickly understand them, and time is spent on the core game itself rather than a single member managing their personal resources. This is why food and water are no longer a concern in the majority of games. DMs are also responsible for the number of encounters or surprise encounters the party will face, classes are not equal, but when you allow the party to rest constantly you open the opportunity for more powerful spells to be spammed.

Anyone can invent more complex or more resource intensive spell systems with casting or special requirements etc but the core underlying issue is what role do you want a wizard to have, what are the pros and cons of that role, what are the resources involved, how does it pair with other players, does it fit within the timescale of your session?

>>98413872
Agreed. Magic in D&D feels way too "gamey". I do like how magic and its users are treated in settings like Warhammer Fantasy and Dragon Age (the good one) where, while it still fulfills certain gameplay niches, it's treated with far more gravitas. I think out of all D&D settings only in Dark Sun being a wizard carries any repercussions and risks, although I am not entirely sure.

>>98494496
>Magic in D&D feels way too "gamey”
You’d think that the intellectuals of their world would notice this. That their physics is suspiciously conditioned.

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>>98497522
Some of them figure it out.

>>98494496
Its because they're a player class.
Druids also got dumbed down after becoming a player class. Or if you're too young to remember that, centaurs being medium size.

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>>98413762
>Instead of spell slots we have casting tolerance.
>When you want to cast a spell you roll a 1d100, has to be over/under a number as defined by your spell's level.
>You miss that, you don't cast a spell.
>Successive casting means that you get a stacking penalty to rolls. A higher level wizard will have smaller penalties as each penalty corresponds to an increment of the d100. This resets every long rest.

>You can pre-prepare your spell roll a minute ahead of time, for ambushes, once you're high enough level. Feats let you pre-prepare two or even three with maybe some multiclassing.
>If your roll fails, you can try to force the roll, same turn. But that will come with a wild magic penalty.

Add in a little suggestion of uncertainty by taking away spell slots and 100% reliable results, plus a chance for wild magic which everyone loves, and Wizards are now interesting.

Yeah they're powerful. But unlike a trusty sword, magick is fickle.

>>98413872
This.

>>98413872
>Etiquette
>- Stop. Acting. Like. You’re. Better. Than. Everyone. For. Playing. A. “Smart”. And. “Wise”. Character.

To be fair, this can be fun if done right.

> Wizard player
> Aloof elf
> Never admits to failing to know anything.
> Just makes up bullshit when he, for example, fails the roll to identify an item.
> Claims "You used it wrong" or "You misinterpreted my wisdom"
> Character is the perfect straight man for every joke and vibe in the party.
> Other characters call him fat, make fun of his 6 strength and buy him a 40lb casting focus made of solid tungsten.

Doesn't come across too well here, but the player made it really fun and "What is the elf going to come out with next" was a legit sport in the campaign.

Essentially, you can do it, but playing it for laughs is probably an idea bearing in mind you *Will* horribly botch some knowledge rolls.

>>98413872
hi wonderfag

>>98508537
Obsessed.

>>98507127
>Just play a quirk chungus
Cringe

>>98413762
Spellcaster's strength comes mostly from their versatility, so that's where you have to hit them. Not in reliability, not in fragility, but in availability of solutions.
So the solution is this: wizards choose a single school of magic and gets spells only from that school.
Clerics do pretty much the same, except they get only spells in their god's domains.
Admitelly, this solution doesn't work easily with Sorcs and Druids. For sorc I think that they should get a pathfinder-style bloodline that gives them a bunch of spell and have non-bloodline choices *greatly* reduced in number. Meanwhile druids should have a much reduced spell list, as they already have a LOT of incredibly strong features (pet and shapechange).

There *are* spells that *still* are too strong and versatile (alter shape, color spray, wall of force) and have to be nipped one by one, but limiting a wizard only to a school helps a lot.

>>98426908
Or this. This is a good solution too.

You fix the disparity between casters and non-casters by playing 4e. /thread

>>98512807
But what if I want to play a tabletop game instead of a video game?

>>98512817
4e is only a "videogame" if you have a shit DM. My group switched from 3.5e to 4e and never looked back because half the fucking time we would play 3.5 by level 7 the non-casters were useless compared to the casters.

>>98512834
4E was the second tabletop I ever played, to this day it remains my least favorite and I've done a lot of systems. Jokes about it being a video game aside, my main issues were combat running slow (even with minions and MM3+ math), utility powers usually *still* being combat related and being limited to encounter/daily when not, untrained Skills autoscaling with your Level, and Rituals taking time and money. In every edition of D&D, if I'm playing a caster or semi-decent martial there's a number of things I can do to influence the game world or narrative with my magic. In 4E I was constantly trying to stack together a character with a fraction of the out of combat utility of a T3 class in PF 1E. So yeah I'm joking about it being a video game but its very much not to my taste, and it has nothing to do with its combat system which outside of shit math is semi-decent.

>>98512800
ai;dr

What if spells became less potent the more you cast them?

What if spells suddenly just ignore you as if you offended them?

>Player decides to play a wizard in 1E DnD
>Casts their one spell
>Realise they don't have any more spells for the day
>Immediately kills themselves and rolls something else
This has happened in every group I've run. At this point I just say they can cast a "force bolt" at will that deals 1d4 damage (I don't tell them it's mechanically identical to a sling).

>>98413762
Revert them back to Magic-Users with level titles.

what if spells were your friends but it kind of hurt them when you cast them?

>>98519688
This is all Wizards really needed. It's about the flavor. Not the damage per turn. If I'm going to be using a sling or crossbow 90% of the time, just give me a power that's the same damage I can spam each turn to take the edge off.

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> Remove all noncasters
> Make new classes to replace them that are casters
> Martials just wanted to be Superman with a sword
> They'll never be happy as melee casters
> Wizards just wanted to lord their superiority over everyone
> They'll never be happy now that others are as strong as they are

I fixed it. Now no one gets to be happy.

>>98413762
I like this wizard
He looks stumped