So of the 100s of 100s of generic world buildings copy pasting religion and the bible did anyone ever literally make one that embraces self contradiction?Like un-ironically state outright that self contradiction is part of it and the in universe lore contradicts itself as a matter of fact.Did anyone do that? I am curious because all the world building I have seen outside of handful examples basically try to resolve all the self contradictions in religion. This idea fascinates me me now.Instead of>Oh yea the bible is canon>however let me like smooth out all the self contradictions in real life religion and explain it allWe get the opposite, the bible (or whatever the source book is) is a paradox the snake eating its own tail i its own existence.We are not taking lore that is hard to square we are talking that the lore states outright that is is a paradox this is true and did happen and it is a lie and it never happened and these things are correct at the same time and the problem is that you can not handle this.
Doom.
>>98418531If its got >ineffable plan >mysterious ways >beyond mortal ken then yes. So yes. Pretty much all of them.
Glorantha does this and people dislike it for it
>>98418531You mean like Daoism?
>>98418531Shadow of the Demon Lord has switcherooHonestly even Pathfinder 1e had this lore. Where big god says "I'm going to beat the Dark Lord cuz I'm the strongest" and had all these prophecies and stuff. And then they lose. And the heroes are those that still struggle.
>>98418531The ultimate truth is the universe is a living being by itself and the act of it living birthed other life, including the Gods and gods. Everything else is selective fanfiction from said Gods and gods whose worship comes with a cosmology they teach and peddle.
>and the problem is that you can not handle this.But if the players then ever interact with that bit then they and the GM must handle it, and that will indeed be a problem.Or you can try to carefully section it all off well out of reach... at which point you also prevent it from having any real impact on the game. Look tot eh Elder Scrolls games, all the different and mutually exclusive endings to Daggerfall canonically happened, time itself supposedly having broken down and stopped being a single linear affair.. Of course it then settled down again well before the next game, and playing Daggerfall you'll only ever experience on ending at a time, so all this really amounts to in game in the end is a few lines of text in an in-game book that is completely optional to read.Also keep in mind that unless you're a good writer/storyteller and can deliver all of this with proper build-up and framing it's very easy for it all to promptly collapse into a sorry heap of teenage pretentiousness, like >>98419424
>>98418531>Like un-ironically state outright that self contradiction is part of it and the in universe lore contradicts itself as a matter of fact.It's called Kill 6 Billion Demons and if you like it your probably on the first step of a journey of self discovery to realize that you are trans
>>98418531Is real life a contradiction just because the public perception of historical events don't match what is known by actual historians? Objectivity is hard to find, and it's the adherent's job to figure out the meaning behind his faith's imperfect records, since the point of it is to tell him how to act in the present, more than it is to inform him of how the past was.
>>98418531What, you mean like a Dragon Break in the Elder Scrolls?
>>98418531Sounds a bit unclear, OP. Could we ask for an example?
>>98420670no
>>98418531Elder Scrolls does this, and to a lesser extent ATLA. The issue is that a lot of fantasy settings assume clerics have direct communication with the gods, and so they're at least somewhat truthful about the cosmology and its nature, albeit probably biased
Contradictions exist in real world religion because its mythology written by barley literate savages that was then taken too seriously by people centuries later.if you're going to have gods and mythic sagas in your world just don't have them be contradictory
OP Here.>>98420735>noSTOP LARPING AS ME! This guy is not me!>>98420588>What, you mean like a Dragon Break in the Elder Scrolls?No 100% no. Dragon breaks are literally shit everyone ignores because they are a stupid cope where Bethesda refuses to commit to a canonical ending and copes out like that>They all are canon>However a mixture of both actually happened.>>98419526>and that will indeed be a problemMore info on this.>>98420670>Sounds a bit unclear, OP. Could we ask for an example?I try my best however at this point keep in mind that it is basically me trying to grasp at ideas.Before this I did have a idea where the lore is not hand holding garbage and does not care if the players get deeply confused. There is a system under all of it however it is never really explained to the players.The easiest example would be to think of it like this there is an ancient sword and another ancient sword. On is generic crap the other world shattering. The name is misleading because the question should be>Ancient to whom? Or you having 4 different people named John Doe and one of them is a special name. However you need to figure out that this is not 1 guy.Now going to my idea.I try to explain it in the most easy way possible.You know of Dantes inferno right? You know of the 7 sins right? You know Dantes inferno has 10 layers and Satan on the bottom. Now any world builder would try to chose one and harmonize these 2 things.>only 7 layers in inferno, 7 sins>10 layers and 10 sinsOr cope>10 layers however 1 or more sins get more then 1 layer.However what if I chose the opposite?Meaning>10 layers and 7 layers, 7 sins and 10 sins.At the same time?I do not even know if this is coherent to try and I must look out for players to not simply filter this into>Yep lore makes no sense lets fight monsters LOL!1/4
>>98421419>>98420670So I introduce to you Dantes Dungeon™ think of it like a extra dimensional hell-ish realm where every layer has a demon lord boss and creates its own demons like demons of greed or demons of wrath who invade the human real and create problems.The heroes need to enter Dantes Dungeon move to the final layer and destroy its pillar and this results in the entire dungeon falling into the outer darkness this essentially disables it for about a year before it reforms itself spawns in its demon lords and starts spawning in demon and creating problems.In all basis it is a dungeon to finish with loot and a big thing to destroy to save the land. However it has lore to it because the DD is basically the epicenter of evil. There are some fundamentals like the DD existing and demons being unable to die only getting banished back to the DD and if the DD falls demons get banished back to hell. However there is lore about he lords of hell (basically demon gods of some sin) and the lets call it the scroll bible talks about this lore. It names every demon lord and what he does and his demon and what their history was. Only here is the thing the scroll bible contradicts itself for example in one part it will mention 10 layers to the DD and later talk that there are only 7 layers. Also the demon lords can change and what they did.Now after the players cleared out the DD for the first time and try to enter it again they find out that it is different. Lets say the number of layers changed or the demon lords changed. However it is all 100% in accordance with what the scroll bible did say.Na a lore perspective mutually exclusive cation myths are also in the scroll bible. You can not cope out of this since the DD ends with the pillar that destroys it and it is always at the end of the DD. The names and numbering of demon lords fits perfectly however only one of the given lists in the scroll bible. 2/4
>>98421419This guy isn't me. Anyways, what self-contradictory game-settings exist out there or even other media that embody self-contradiction that can be used as fodder for imaginition and planning future games?
>>98421420>>98420670II hope you start to wrap your head around it all. I was also thinking of making the scroll bible similar to the elder scrolls in skyrim only nerfed. They are fragments of a larger text and you can read them no problem however they are also powerful weapons. You can use one for a powerful attack(kill all monsters in a large region excluding demon lords) however this will banish the scroll before it materializes into the world again.The best part is that they are not even numbered correctly. Like there are more then 1 version of scroll 21 who talk about something totally different. I think the comparison to vivec is better. The scrolls themselves are neutral to motherly in their presentation like it will neutrally present what sounds like normal mythology or theology and then later the same retelling simply creates a contradiction. For example lets say you have the standard Adam and Even and Satan story. Eve is the first woman in one version and later another version has Adam Even and Lilith as the one who tempted Eve.In the first version Even is explicitly named the first woman In the other version is explicitly named the second woman and Lilith is the first woman. Obviously both versions contradict one another however the scroll bible does not even pause and continues. And both versions are true since once in the DD you have Satan at the end as the demon lord of pride. And another it is Lilith as the demon lord of envy. 3/4
>>98421429>>98420670As for the motherly tone, the symbol of the scroll bible is the snake devouring its own tale (ouroboros) and the text will explicitly go like this:>I know this can be difficult to understand and it will shatter your linear notion of time>Circles within circles within circles who form a line>Belial is the original devil, it was he who tempted and corrupted satan into rebellion.>Belial was first he predates time itself.>He created satan and once satan did fall they did have a mighty battle where lucifer won and became the ruler of hell, taking the title and crown away from Belial and drained Belial of all his blood and cast him out.>Belial created Satan however Satan also created Belial! >It was Satan who tempted the human Tajberjus and once he fall into hell he became the demon lord Belial.>Satan is a celestial however Belial is a human he needs to gather divine blood to have any power. >Yet Belial was different, Belial is irredeemable at the end of time even Satan repents and asks for forgiveness, not Belial >Beliel stays in hell as its new ruler, he is the first and second beast of revelation. >These things can be difficult to understand.>He is a living paradox.The ouroboros the paradoxical nature of a snake devouring itself, a living contradiction.As for the religious people in the world they basically double down times a million on this subject and they act like it is you who are the problem for not understanding and they are so smart and smug for getting it.This is what I got for now.
>>98421419>>and that will indeed be a problem>More info on this.Really? Ok then... If the players interact with something self-contradictory or paradoxical, then the GM most liekly won't be able to say what happens, at least not without effectively removing the contradiction. Take the McGuffin, which is only in one place, but it's also in both towers A and B. Now if the players go to one tower and it's just there, then it was apparently just there and the part of it being in both places was bullshit. If it isn't there, then it's in the other place. If they have to go to both places and pick it up, then it was effectively just in two pieces. If they can grab it from one place and it's still in the other, then there's effectively two of them, or it exists in two places at once and the bit about only being in one place is bullshit.So more or less whatever happens, the contradiction/paradox/whatever is effectively erased (sure, the lore might claim otherwise, but that's just impotent pretentiousness at that point). To maintain the contradiction the players would have to both have and not have the McGuffin, and that either leads to having to maintain two simultaneous narratives from then on, which will be a fucking headache and a half and get real fucking old in a hurry, or the question of what the fuck happens becomes pure GM asspull meaning the players have their agency hobbled since there's no longer any clear connection between cause and effect for them.Or to take your Dante's Dungeon as another example. The Scroll Bible can say whatever, if the players go in, beat all seven layers (and those seven was all), and save the day then seven layers it was. Instead of there being some great contradiction built into reality itself where the dungeon was both seven and ten layers it was either just seven all along, or it varies but when the players went in it was seven and nothing else. The contradiction does not survive actual play.
>>98421516I like you to react to my example.> The contradiction does not survive actual play.What if they are expected to return to it and it is 10 now?
>>98421519>What if they are expected to return to it and it is 10 now?So it changed from one time to the next. That's not a contradiction, that's just it not being constant.And if you now go "But if it's both constant and non-constant?", well, then it'll have to be both seven and ten layers when the players return, because if it's just ten then the game proved the scroll bible wrong about it being constant.Lore texts (religious or not) being self-contradictory is one thing. Trying to have the actual reality of the game world being self-contradictory is something else entirely.
>>98421592>because if it's just ten then the game proved the scroll bible wrongThe text self contradicts(that is the point) another part says it is 10 another that it is 7.> that's just it not being constant.Despite the rulers of it also changing? (Lilith instead of Satan?)>Trying to have the actual reality of the game world being self-contradictory is something else entirely.What are your suggestions?
>>98421605>>because if it's just ten then the game proved the scroll bible wrong>The text self contradicts(that is the point) another part says it is 10 another that it is 7.That was about if it claimed the dungeon was constant, then the change would prove it wrong about that part. Now if the scroll says it's 7 in one part and 10 in another and it changes from one to another form one visit to the next... then the dungeon keeps changing and that's likely why the scroll can't stick to one number.>Despite the rulers of it also changing? (Lilith instead of Satan?)Yes, this covers any and all changes. And c'mon now, it's hardly much of a surprise to see someone new has taken over if we turned the old boss into haggins last time we visited.>What are your suggestions?First realise that the game world will, in actual play, not be self-contradictory. Second, keep in mind that a lot of people won't hear the scroll bible specifying both seven and ten floors and think that means both are always true, they'll just take it as a sign that it changes around, or that the scroll isn't entirely reliable, or something like that. We are, after all, all used to religious texts, prophecies, and so on being self-contradictory despite reality seemingly not being so, and as even religious people tend to not believe every word of the other religions' texts we're all all used to most of what these texts say being complete nonsense (and sometimes they warn that their own texts are not all that easily interpretable). So the reflex isn't exactly to assume every word of them are direct, literal truth.
>>98421660>we turned the old boss into haggins last time we visited.Here is the best part it also changes back. Or rearranges order. In accordance as the scrolls say. In one version or another.
>>98421674Ok? Having established that the dungeon isn’t constant, further changes aren't going to be very surprising. There's still no contradiction or paradox there in actual gameplay.
>>98421806>There's still no contradiction or paradox there in actual gameplay.How so? Since the dungeon represents the infernal hierarchy according to the lore and it shifts between the versions told before.These are not some random monsters these are the basically the demonic gods of this world.
