Welcome to Open OSR. This thread is for open discussions of OSR-adjacent and retro games. You can talk about all OSR-adjacent games without distinction here, including 2e.There is a general for those who strictly want to talk about old-school D&D. If that is your preference, you can find that here: >>98372743Previous thread: >>98378113Thread Question:>What was the last OSR-adjacent game you ran with an IRL group?
Over the edge, I think. It was a one shot pick up some years back. Most my OSR games have been based online since covid
>>98425414Very nice, Anon! OTE, I mean; running games exclusively online seems a bit sad.
>>98425424Well, I run RL games, they are just not OSR games. I run different systems and games as moods hit me and my local era is not player rich. So for the occasional OSR stuff it's normally roll20.
>>98425448Okay, that makes sense. Reasonable.
>>98425452Roll20 and discord for chat is the closest I have found, not the same as RL but beats no games
>>98425397Here is the last time you tried taking over these threads, and notice the way you kept trying to bump it despite everyone ignoring it and posting in the real Open OSR thread instead.boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/98390769/open-osrWhy the fuck do you keep trying to do this shit? Stay in your bizarre narrow interpratation of OSR threads (the corrupted /osrg/), and leave the full OSR (which includes 2e) threads alone already.
>>98425548>And yet no systemYes, because new systems are obviously not important in the OSR. The purpose of the orignal retroclones (OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord) was to enable people to make new material, new content, for the old school editions (1e, Basic) and sell those, under the fig leaf of being for the clone game. Figures such as Melan and Michael Curtis are far more important than mere facilitators like Stuart Marshall or Daniel Proctor. Raggi too originally created his retroclone as a mere label to release his modules under.>It is only in 2008 that "old school" arrives in that linked bibliography.Of course it is, since it's only in 2008 that the old-school revival got started. Are you expecting him to reverse causality somehow?
>>98425565>>98425592>>98425623What's supposed to be the problem? You've claimed yourself several times in the last thread that nobody can own a general or force their preferred OP text for a general, so why are you complaining that someone else made the next thread with a different OP than your preferred one?
>>98425614>one single OP found mentioning 2e>thread text says "don't mention 2e books like in the last thread">this is proof of 2e being accepted in /osrg/lmaoanyway though this isn't a thread about /osrg/ so please don't bring up /osrg/ here
>>98425689Just two examples from that thread as proof:>>98382430>>98382656
>>98425679>Yes, because new systems are obviously not important in the OSR....I repeat:>Actual in-the-guts-of-it design work that looks at the bad and says "well that doesn't need to stay" instead of saying it's something you just have to accept, not a coattail-riding margin-scribbling old foggy just endlessly wearing ruts in the same trails worshipping a reheated corpse.>>98425679>Of course it is, since it's only in 2008 that the old-school revival got started.He explicitly dates it to 2004:https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2019/08/blog-third-years-charm-end-of-osr.html>But there is no big tent “old school community” in the way there was one on Dragonsfoot ca. 2004-2008Note, this includes his C&C modules, so he was clearly participating in "OSR" that you reject as such if you consider OSRIC the first.And again, he explicitly calls out shitflinging like yours:>Trying to go after people for ideological missteps of failing to demonstrate appropriate piety is something else. That’s really at the core of it. If people can’t put their differences aside and get along without being at each others’ throats, no creative dividends are worth it.>>98425712...For redundancy of having already been discussed. Unless you can point me to said previous thread having pushback?
>>98425733Everything in the old editions needs to stay, obviously. The idea that the purpose of the OSR is to rip the guts out of old D&D and change it clearly speaks to your big problem with understanding what the OSR even is in the first place. There was never supposed to be a profusion of retroclones (although a few have been justified; 7 Voyages and ACKS stand out as having genuine merit). The purpose of the retroclones was only to allow the production and sale of new *material* for these old editions.You clearly don't know anything about the OSR at all, so it's weird that you can work yourself up to such rage that your dick falls off over it.
>>98425733Why are you arguing with the retard in his fake thread. He's just trolling you with absolutely retarded bait to pad up the post count.
>>98425733>Unless you can point me to said previous thread having pushback?You mean like>In fact, 2e is where the common consensus begins to draw the line as where D&D started moving away from what is usually considered OSR?
>>98425770How can the thread be fake, anon? You said yourself that anyone can make a continuation of a thread: >>98382656 and you took the thread title from a different thread yourself. There really is no need for your personal thread.
>>98425623The last real Open OSR thread archived as everyone stayed in the fake one.
>>98425757>Everything in the old editions needs to stay, obviously. The idea that the purpose of the OSR is to rip the guts out of old D&D and change it clearly speaks to your big problem with understanding what the OSR even is in the first place....Really? You are explicitly treating the extremely basic act of game design that is FIXING PROBLEMS as ripping the guts out? No, a revival is NOT worshipping a mummified corpse, bringing new life to it to constitute a "revival" HAS TO actually do SOMETHING to address why it was "dead" in the first place. And to even attempt this with the word "renaissance" so utterly associated with change is a farce.>There was never supposed to be a profusion of retroclones (although a few have been justified; 7 Voyages and ACKS stand out as having genuine merit). The purpose of the retroclones was only to allow the production and sale of new *material* for these old editions.For fuck's sake, Melan's 2004 Dragonsfoot "big tent" starting point matches with C&C's release year, which he made modules for. The looser "work OSR play-patterns into a new system" literally pre-dates your hardline "file the IP off".>You clearly don't know anything about the OSR at allI don't know much about your fringe cult blogosphere because it's a fringe cult blogosphere. Again, C&C came first, the /osrg/ happily discussed 2e with ready nods to it in the OPs.>>98425775...Anon, the previous thread is this one, work on your reading comprehension:>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47713976/Also use post links:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47768147/#q47824057And the very same post is quite explicit that AD&D 2e is included in the family, it is merely a directional note "away" rather than an exclusion.
>>98425397>What was the last OSR-adjacent game you ran with an IRL group?Looking to run rather than last but I think the Darkship hack of Cthulhu Dark is about right for running a few of the Mothership modules and my group.
>>98425861Old D&D doesn't have problems. FOE, GYG
>>98427087NTA, but all d&D has problems
Thoughts on using GURPS for an OSR-like experience?
Does anyone have a good system for high quality mundane gear in a becmi like system?
>>98429206GURPS Dungeon World exists for the official take on something emulating the tropes, both fluff and crunch, of d20 fantasy. But the systems are too different to get closer than that easily. I recently heard of a PbtA game, vagabonds of dyfed, that is numerically compatible with OSR modules, I bet with a significant amount of work you could do the same thing for GURPS
>>98425397another dogshit troll/spam thread from fishfag.
>>98429565I'm not familiar with OSR modules, but I've been able to run non-GURPS material in GURPS fairly easily in the past, so that's encouraging.
>>98429523>system >for mundane gear ...waht? The players have the gear in their inventory and they describe how they use it in relation to how you describe the game world?
>>98429206You should be able to do something with it. Gurps has a lot of supplements
>>98429803No, this one has the actual Open OSR OP
>>98429523You mean like masterwork, fine and so on?
>>98430750Not stuck to any set system but ya, well made non magical gear
>>98430866Off hand the 2e DMG had rules for fine and exceptional weapons. I think worlds without number has something like that too.There might be other books with something of the like but I don't recall off han
>>98430791To answer your question: no, I just really enjoy your complete inability to just shrug it off and move on. You HAVE to get the last word in there, it shows how obsessed you are with your tard narrative that you can't even let an obvious zero-effort baitpost slide.And then of course you never win anyway, so it ends up being a total waste of your time.
>>98425397>2eis there any group rescanning the old ravenloft and planescape 2e books? the ones circulating mostly suck
>>98431917>the ones circulating mostly suckThat won't be helped by better scans.
>>98431917they suck because 2e is dogshit
>>98431917Ignore the trolls, but yeah better scans would be nice. Wotc went low effort with their older PDFs
>>98436029Low effort trash deserves low effort
>>98425397there should be a capture for OPs pictureall i can think of are lame dad jokes>Surprise, motherfucker!>Ohhh Yeaaaah! (Koolaid man)>Lemme Axe You Something!>I Got A BONE to pick with you!>WAAAAAZUUUUUPP>Heeeeeres Jhonny!
>>98425397A DCC Cyber Sprawl Classics Funnel adventure inspired by Dredd and (losely) real life experiences. A bunch of 0-level squatters take back their shitty janky building from gangers.
>>98436029>better scans would be nice.some are outright unreadable, some are missing pages, some pages are in the wrong place and many are from averagely scanned to horrendous.
>>98437171Cyber Crawl Classics funnel that's just a block war from the old comics wold work really well now that you mention it. Leaning into how absurd megacity fashion and life is fits the DCC vibe.
>>98437338Yeah, I recall the complaints when they started reselling them. It was with an older scanner and honestly a rush job you can tell was done by someone who didn't fucking care
>>98439328Who gives a shit about 2e
>>98439328What happened was, instead of doing most of it in-house, WotC put out a call to the player base to scan the books the TSR books that they'd owned, for some pay. Instead of actually scanning books, people just sent in the poorly scanned, low-res, pirated pdfs that were already being shared in the '00s. The reason I know this is I had downloaded a lot of the TSR books from Soulseek at first, and then Demonoid torrents back then, and they were the exact same files that WotC started selling. Here is an example of the shitty scans you get from them. First page of Keep on the Borderlands they sell on Drivethru:
>>98442427And here's a quick scan I did ten minutes ago on my crappy 2010 Epson scanner from my personal copy I've had since the '80s. If I spent a little more time on it I could easily tidy up the image.
>>98442430Shows how much they are ripping people off with their pdfs.
>>98442270Depends on the game, it all systems have issues and odd things that folks houserule a patch for
>>98442427That sounds about right. Now that you mention that I vaguely recall something like that
>>98442427>What happened was, instead of doing most of it in-house, WotCa company manned by worthless retards
>>98443809Nice, good job not providing a single fucking example
>>98449125Nice job on showing you don't actually play games
>>98449462Been playing D&D at least weekly for over 20 years. I'm not saying the games don't have problems, I'm asking you to list one specific example of a problem.
>>98449773It depends on which version. Every game ever made has issues man. You acting like this is a new concept to you is weird
>>98451051... you don't have any examples relevant to the thread do you?
>>98451051Repeat: I'm asking you to give one single specific example.
>>98451156Once more, you acting like you don't know what I am talking about and that they don't exist is just making you look stupid
>>98451892Bro. No one is saying "they don't exist".Just cite one example. That's gotta be easy, right?
>>98452224This is you making a play for them not existing
>>98451892>>98452394Damn gurl (you) thursty.
>>98452394It's fascinating how you clearly have never played D&D before. If you've touched any edition, it should be easy for you to field even one single complaint.
>>98452501Son, I have been playing RPGs for over 30 years. You are being disingenuous. We both know no RPG is flawless and you are just arguing to argue. It's that or you have never actually gamed ever. Hell even one shots can show flaws in some systems.
>>98454525Hey fake hillbilly retard, I've already explicitly stated that D&D has its flaws.And yet for playing for 20 years, and being the one making the claim, you are unable to provide even a single example.. And you are doing constant mental gymnastics to justify not giving one example, with your reasoning being that you don't have to because I'm claiming those examples don't exist? Should be extremely easy for you to provide literally just one single example to prove your claim.
>>98454559Hey fake player, I never said shit about D&D. I started all games have flaws. You then said to make one, as if this was a new concept to you.I didn't list system, hell you didn't list system you just disagrees with the very idea games have flaws.
>>98454940>this much cope to be a nogames wow
>>98455155Please point out where I stated D&D. You started on that acting like this idea that every system had its flaw was a new thing you could not accept.I know you no game trolls are desperate, but come on.
>>98455460I don't care about that part. Talk about dnd in the osr thread. What's one flaw with dnd that relates to here?
>>98455625I am not engaging in your silly argument. You never do anything but troll and try and start pointless arguments
>>98455671>I can't talk about games We know.
>>98455671Actually an all-time proof of being nogames. Kudos, Anon! Nobody can believe that you've ever played D&D after this.
>>98455460>Please point out where I stated D&DAre you retarded? You said it in picrel. How embarrassing to be this stupid. You said "all D&D has problems".>>98455671>>98454940Insane nogames posting. I asked you to name one single flaw, among any edition of D&D, and yet you can't provide even one example. Good job, RPGnet newfag fake-hillbilly. You've outed yourself once again.
>Claims to have been playing D&D for 30 years>Has not a single complaint, critique or even specific point he can make about itBoy, you sure are an agreeable fucker aren't you, apparently. All those radically different systems across 3 decades under the same brand and not even once did you go 'I don't like this mechanic'No wonder you fake being some kind of yokel, it's to stop people questioning the smell of bullshit.
>>98459780The hillbilly thing is one of fishfags attempts at changing his positing style as a cover up. I posted >>98459223 this morning and he spent the hours after that in the "open osr" thread, reposting the word embarrassing over and over. he's finally cracked
>>98459795>he's finally crackedWhat's new?
>>98459812trvke
>>98459795It is fascinating to see how he latches onto a word directed at him.
>>98459833Once you spend a few hours eating lead paint chip n' dip it's easy enough to understand.Fishfag is so low IQ that he's unable to create a mental map of another human beings mind, so to him other people are just these incomprehensible black boxes that react in certain ways if he does certain things and words are magic spells you can cast that get them to do what you want.Therefore anything that makes him the Big Mad Baby surely must have the exact same effect on others, because it's not people pointing out something that's evidently true about him and his subconscious going "Hey, I resemble that remark and it hurts :(" it's just we cast the right spell-words and they can be replicated by him as a Level 3 Down syndrome Warlock.
>>98459795>he's finally cracked...Anon, he's been completely shattered for a long time. Not only has he been spergily trying to force 2e – a non-OSR game universally recognized as such – into the /osrg/ for literal years because he believes it's going to "own the chuds" somehow, he's been persecuting any mention of the William Hope Hodgson novel The Night Land and the idea that ACKS rules are usable and have valid functional applications drives him into a fugue of rage.
once more not fishfag, gods above y'all are sad
>>98454559Dude ass you just want to agree, you just agreed with me and still want to fucking argue over something you know is factual.I am not sharing with you over something you just agreed with.
>>98460808Fucking hell that got autocorrected to unrecognizable.It should read "Dumbass you just want to argue. You just agreed with me and still want to fucking argue over something you know is factual.I am not arguing over something you just agreed with"
>>98460808>>98460821>this much spaghetti about getting owned Thanks for the laughs anon, I appreciate your dedication to the bit taking over your common sense.
I'm a nogames but I played 2nd ed in the 90s and had some original AD&D books too. I miss this flavor of fantasy.
>>98461337You should dip your toes back in. Lots of games out there both OSR and otherwise. Pop culture fantasy has changed alot over the last 30+years, but the 90s had a great vibe for fantasy.
>>98460808So why do you refuse to just give one single example? I have explicitly already stated that I agree that D&D has flaws and problems, but you made the assertion first, and have been unable to back it up with even one single example after your supposed decades of gaming >>98460785>gods above >y'allHoly shit this gay and fake hillbilly posting to try and disguise your posting style is really quite pathetic
>>98461542>So why do you refuse to just give one single example?Dude, come on, they don't have one. You know it, I know it, they know it, Zorak know it.
>>98442427>>98442430Holy shit the difference. WotC should be ashamed.
>>98460704Which is why I'm running a Night Land campaign using ACKS. My players are having a wonderful time.
>>98461789I ran the Nightland modules. It was not very good. The art was cool, there were some ideas in it but they were just ideas point crawl tied together and I had to make all of the locations. The tables were particularly ass to use at the table.
>>98461850>I ran the Nightland modules. It was not very good.There are modules?
>>98462684Singular, typo sorry. Very clearly inspired by but not really based on the NHH stuff. A similar dead earth in a strange future, massive monsters in the background, weird enclaves. Far more gonzo.
>>98425757You have to be one of the most pretentious twits on the internet. The reason why people play retroclones (or ACKS) is because old D&D is conceptually and technically unfinished. It was the birth of a medium, no one expects it to be conceptually finished, no one but you.
>>98425424It really doesn't.
>>98464432Which post are you quoting?
>>98464432No, it does.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
>>98442430This why I don't pay for digital books. You're retarded if you do.
>>98463897>I hate everything the OSR stands for>that's why I'm posting in this OSR thread
>>98427087This. Why even post in an OSR thread if you don't understand this
>>98459223still no response to this.
Dumb question, is Pendragon considered part of the OSR movement? It hasnt changed much since the 80's
>>98481084very dumb question. What does "OSR" mean to you?
>>98481084Just consider it part of classic '80s pen & paper RPG gaming in general. What people into OSR who were too young to remember or not yet born in the '70s and '80s notions about what playing RPGs was like back then often bears little resemblance to what it was really like.
>>98481152completely worthless vaguepost
>>98481072Of course not. What's he supposed to say, "uh, sorry, I actually have no idea what I'm talking about and am just an angry nogames tranny trolling out of dickless rage"?
>>98481084No. Pendragon is not based on pre-2e D&D, so it's not art of the old-school movement. Whenever you see "old school", add a [D&D] at the end; the old school revival was started on D&D messageboards, so they didn't think they needed to specify that they were talking about the original editions of D&D specifically.
>>98481583>"uh, sorry, I actually have no idea what I'm talking about and am just an angry nogames tranny trolling out of dickless rage"a boy can dream!
>>98481152It is cute when someone is so terrified of saying >no its not but that's okay they have to do whatever this is.
>>98482569Agreed. Retards realized that they hard-lined for the reddit osr definition, which is: "Its OSR if you want it to be!!!"
>>984815932e AD&D is also OSR.Well, there's one thread that has a different definition, but you aren't there, are you?
>>98484361Incorrect! 2e is not OSR, but it can be said to be OSR-adjacent (as per this thread's OP).The hijack thread that stole this one's title tries to push its own fake OSR definition, but you aren't there, are you?
>>98484361its not. its storyfaggotry disguised as AD&D
>>98484361>>98484988Can you redpill me on what the difference is?
>>98485497Groggy pseudo-Gygaxian-apparently-nearer-to-Arnesonian gripes about defaults and expectation-setting for a particular flavor of dungeon-crawling, as far as I've come to understand it. The refusal to consolidate a clear list of structural needs that AD&D 2e actively precludes leaves me unconvinced that even the narrowest style-of-play definition for OSR is infeasible, merely somewhat reliant on external advice to use the rules accordingly. Especially given how often I see suggestions to have large chunks of the process not reference the game rules at all.
>>98485497ignore the troll.new school is story threads.old school is procedural gaming
>>98485497There's at least three different categories in a broad sense and idiots tend to conflate them. >OSR,Various sub categories and offshoots, largely TSR era d&d focus with varying interests in what parts of that they focus on, reject and quibble over. FAG, CAG, NUSR, etc. goes here. >New School80s and 90s rejections of TSR dnd to make their own DND with hookers and blackjack, usually by recreating the same problems by missing the forest for the trees and trying to use granular design to make the game more "realistic" in whatever way tickles their autism. Note this oddly includes things like RIFTS or Vampire the Masquerade even though they're surface level mechanically different the mode of play is the same. Covers most trash games ever. >Storygames. Early 2000s shift to change gameplay loops and mechanics to focus on narrative control rather than mechanical differences. Trollbade to Blades in the Dark. The dice tend to be very abstracted contests and are about who tells the story. If there are dice at all. All three can be procedural. OSR and Storygames in their true sense are both trying to get away from New School games but in different directions. They used to be more closely linked but various nerd personalities got mad at each other enough for retarded reasons everything atomized a lot.Many irritated nerds can't distinguish between the forms they dislike, which makes for a more confusing expedience. A storyfag who only does narrative games likely can't or doesn't care to distinguish between the other two just as an OSRfag might not be able to understand a difference between using 5E or Monsterhearts. Newschoolers likewise tend to be ignorant as fuck, thinking having played WHFRP, Shadowrun and 3 editions of DND makes them well rounded. 1/2
Gets even more muddied at the edges of some games where there are parts taken from all three groupings. I suspect there can be another term lie >marketing slop of just jamming together whatever seemed cool at the time but not really knowing how any of it works like Dungeon World, Numenara or Daggerheart. Usually trying to splash in a few storygame bits but not committing to it enough to remove the mechanical clutter and minutia the entire point of abstract narrative control was suppose to avoid. It can be well done in some cases though like Beyond The Wall's mixed OSR and PBTA or uh... I hear good things about GUMSHOE? There's also an entire section of itch.io shovelware or art concept games that don't seem to have much going on in any sense of the other three but orbit them like marketing slop, just less effort and more ironic distance. Things like Slugblaster or Against the Apocalypse. They're not really made to be played, they're art projects in the skin of a game. There's negotiated freerform too like the Free Kerigspeil Revolution or Amber or various LARPS. Solo/Journaling games are sort of their own thing. Some solo gameplay uses other systems with various mechanism put on top, some are made to be read through similar to a game book/chose your own adventure. Then there's the ones who manned up and honestly just made art books like Vermis. There's going to be edge cases of all these things but that's a QRD. 2/2
>>98486663>New School>80s and 90s rejections of TSR dndThis isn't really correct, the "new school" or "trad" game type date back to the 1970s and includes very early games such as Runequest and Traveller – games with a very close relation to Original D&D but which chucked the dungeon-based gameplay loop in favor of the sort of aimless "the DM will figure it out" campaign framing which ultimately led to the development of railroading/"playing a fantasy novel". 2e itself notably belongs to this category, having removed or modified most dungeoncrawling-related rules in favor of a linear approach rooted in Dragonlance and Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms novels. In other words, the new school isn't defined by the games being newer so much as by their showcasing of a *new style of play* – which is why for the avoidance of confusion it's better to use the term "trad" than "new school".
>>98486768Wilderness exploration is OD&D. Hexcrawls well predate any "set" narrativism. You are a fake-grog retarded revisionist trying to conflate a very particular take on a tiny sliver of very first steps with the entirety of persistent interest only to turn back around and insult the incredibly vast majority of said interest for not fitting your ludicrous prescription of what "Old-School" "really" means.
>>98486790>Wilderness exploration is OD&D. Hexcrawls well predate any "set" narrativism.Yes? Of course they are. What are you talking about?>some sort of demented rage crashoutI can't be held responsible for your ass exploding, sorry.
>>98486768Good point with Runequest. I'm more familiar with Traveller having developed independently rather than being derived from the brown books but if you've got good evidence of that I'd be interested to read it.
>>98486798>Yes? Of course they are. What are you talking about?Your own statement of the "old-school" being the dungeon-based gameplay loop:>but which chucked the dungeon-based gameplay loop in favor of the sort of aimless "the DM will figure it out" campaign framingFor rather obvious reasons, there's a lot more for the DM to figure out in wilderness EXPLORATION that hexcrawls added structure to than enclosed pre-defined dungeons.
>>98486805I didn't mean to suggest that Traveller was a direct rules derivative of OD&D in the way that EPT or Runequest were – just that there's an obviously close relation through OD&D inaugurating the RPG medium and Traveller being designed as "space D&D" in a creative environment with few other bases of reference. Traveller's rules are indeed an independent system design from the ground up (with the exception of certain inherited concepts from D&D such as base abilities and saving throws, which shows you how large the original game loomed over the medium in those days).(On the other hand, if against probability you're suggesting that Traveller was an entirely independent invention of the RPG form and that its three black booklets bore no relation at all to the three brown booklets of OD&D, all I can say is you're nuts.)>>98486812Wilderness exploration via hexcrawls is an adjunct to the dungeon-based gameplay loop. Hexcrawling is also unsupported in 2e. Still not sure what you're mad about.
>>98486870>(On the other hand, if against probability you're suggesting that Traveller was an entirely independent invention of the RPG form and that its three black booklets bore no relation at all to the three brown booklets of OD&D, all I can say is you're nuts.)Its a thing I've heard but don't particularly believe so was interested if there's any written accounts of its origins one way or the other.
>>98486870Traveller nerd here, Marc Millar has spoken in various interviews over the years about how he had the 3LBB's on hand for reference while designing Traveller. It's clearly its own game, and designed and played very differently, but you can see that he was very familiar with OD&D and referenced it for some things. It's why you're a "Referee" instead of a GM or DM, as that's the OD&D term.
>>98486938>Its a thing I've heard but don't particularly believeWell, you definitely shouldn't because that's an insane thing to believe. I didn't even realize Traveller partisans to the degree where they would make up something that crazy existed.>was interested if there's any written accounts of its origins one way or the otherI have no idea but you can take it from me that it's completely absurd to think that an RPG from 1977 was in no way influenced by OD&D. >>98486993 might know some accounts?
>>98487083Here's Marc talking a lot about those early years, and the impact of D&D on his circle:https://youtube.com/watch?v=BKrVtzuwP-ESee 12 minutes in
>>98487083>>98487120Neat thanks.
>>98487120Nice one, brah.
>>98485608Eat shit, fishfag.>>98485497Storyfagging is fudging rolls, following a "story', obsession over characters, "shared fiction", etc Vs just playing the game RAW
>>984253972e came out about the time I moved house and lost my regular gaming group, so I never got to play it. Can someone give me a quick run-down of the good bits I missed?
>>98487120This is more about him describing the formatting of the game rather than any content. I think the content, rules and design of Traveller are different enough from the onset that it might need its own category. People playing it will have made parallels but mechanically it doesn't seem like it was trying to fix old dnd or avoid whatever parts of it the designers thought were pitfalls which I tend to associate with New School.
>>98488616>the good bitsthe good bit was missing it lmao
>>98488337>playing the game RAWWhat does this look like? I'm a zoomer newfag. Genuinely curious, pls no bully.
>>98488616Ignoring the brainrotted posters trying to meme them into two completely different games the way BEMCI, 3.X, 4e and 5e are, 1e and 2e were extremely mechanically similar to the point most material from either edition could be run straight without conversion. Significant changes were GP to XP being made an optional rule, dropping the Monk and Assassin classes, Dragons getting a massive overhaul and power boost and the introduction of kits (a class adjustment system that varied between underpowered, overpowered and meaningless depending on the kit).The biggest difference between the editions was actually content put out. 1e put out mostly location crawl adventures that could in theory be dropped into any campaign while 2e put out campaign setting (Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Al-Quadim, Birthright, Planescape etc.) boxed sets and adventures that specifically supported those settings. 2e gets a lot of legit criticism for meta plot adventures.So the good bits were the wide variety of settings that Hasbro and WotC are still trying to mine.
>>98491411The games (BX/AD&D) are meant to run holistically, that is, the entire system is meant to gel with, and influence, itself. The entire thing is like a watch, with all of the moving parts working in necessary relation to each other. The entire system begins to stutter and breakdown however, when you begin to neglect following the procedures that the game runs on, such as:-encounter procedure <surprise, distance, reaction, etc>-combat procedure <initiative phases, morale, etc>-dungeon procedure <turn based time-tracking, wandering monsters, etc>-core gameplay loop <gold-for-xp, dungeoneering, wilderness exploration, strgonhold building, etc>
>>98491425>meme them into two completely different gamesTry running them according to their respective DMGs sometimes and you'll see it's not a meme.
>>98491505They don't even think movement speed or reaction rolls being entirely different is a significant changes to gameplay. You know, how your characters move and talk, not important.
>>98491630You mean rules actively ignored by most 1e players and DMs? To the point Charisma was memed into a dump stat?You can always ID the ones you first played AD&D post-OSR by their obsession with rules that got ignored.
>>98491749>rules actively ignored by most 1e players and DMs...fucking what? Just because you played wrong, doesnt means others did, or dowtf lmao
>>98491749Right, here we go. There are no rules, its all made up so everything is everything. Appreciate that you ramped up to to your thought terminating drivel so quickly.
>>98491749>i am too dumb to play D&D, therefore, everyone is! o waow
>>98491425Thanks for the most rational and useful description I've seen anywhere so far.The fight over "what is OSR" has made it tough to cut through to this point.BTW I played the original Ravenloft adventure on rails with a DM who was excited about Dragonlance, and that was just before moving cities for work and taking a long break.I've seen the criticism of the metaplots, but was curious to know whether the rules changed much. I'll do some digging to understand that better.
>>98491890
>>98491927>>98491952wow, nice. what is this from?
>>98491961/osrg/ There's been a bunch of primers and intros and documents there in the pastbins for a while. There's a range of opinions, a good list of introduction modules with breakdowns, a blog roll.
>>98492205This one's all part of 2e's anti-DM ethos of "don't make your own stuff, buy our new product instead"
>>98492322Yeah it was a fucked up time that hasn't really ended in terms of how the larger names do business. I'm sure there are more differences. I recall a pdf that had a very granular breakdown but don't have it on hand. Wasn't as relevant to my interests but shouldn't be hard to google.
>>98491927>>98492000>>98492416Why didn't you just link to the primer?
>>98492516Felt like posting pictures.
>>98492516NAYRT but it's honestly wortwhile posting it in this form because it's much harder to dodge. Certain unnamed parties with a harbor reek will just pretend to read PDFs and the like and dismiss them wholesale, pretending to have defeated all the facts in them. This way Anon could point to any given difference and force it to be addressed (none can be refuted).
>>98492992Bold of you to assume reason would be effective.
>>98491411It looks different at every table because old D&D was conceptually unfinished and everyone completed it differently. Most of the problems revolve around general ambiguity as to which parts of the game are governed by game rules and which parts are governed by storytelling logic. For instance, what happens when a non-thief tries to sneak, or pick a lock? Some dms will say that they just can’t, because it’s a game and the game rules say no, while others will say that anyone can try to sneak but that thieves are X% better somehow. Future editions (and future games in general) would avoid that sort of pitfall by clearly defining what a standard character can do before piling extra powers on top of that, but old D&D was still working on it. Are non-fighters supposed to be able to kick down doors based on their strength scale? That’s similar, but different, but related such that it’s hard to rule them one at a time (and easier to simply write a more finished edition).The man who tells you that AD&D 1e is a well-oiled gaming machine that can’t be tampered with is the most pretentious twit on earth. It’s not finished at all, and also it can be anything, a lot of it is just (good) game design essays in place of game design.
>>98493349>That’s similar, but different, but related such that it’s hard to rule them one at a time (and easier to simply write a more finished edition).Skill issue. And one that is certainly not aided by 3d ed you can only do X if you have Feat Y.
>>98493349>conceptually unfinishedCool meme bro
>>98493349>For instance, what happens when a non-thief tries to sneak during exploration speed, everyone is assumed to be sneaking as well as they possibly can, which is why they have a chance of surprising enemies>Or pick a lock?They can't do it, period. It's not unfinished conceptually or mechanically, you're just a bozo
>>98493429Somehoow I messed up the green text so I'll try this again >For instance, what happens when a non-thief tries to sneak?During exploration speed, everyone is assumed to be sneaking as well as they possibly can, which is why they have a chance of surprising enemies
>>98493349>Are non-fighters supposed to be able to kick down doors based on their strength scale?Yes? Yes, nothing about bashing doors is related to your class, it's related to your strength score. Being intentionally obtuse and misrepresenting the facts, isn't a good look. I dare you to actually find and point out where the game is unfinished.
