What age should I introduce my gen alpha nephews to tabletop rpgs?
>>9846823510 or 12 depending on the game and how developmentally stunted they are from having a channer for a mother
>>98468253fpbp/thread
>That comicIt is one of my deepest and most heartfelt desires to see all persons of this Earth forced to live the lives they advocate for others.The maker of this comic, for example, should be followed around at all times by a man with a big, heavy stick and any time he attempts to share something he enjoys with others he should be beaten for it.If only it were possible to make this happen to them.Oh as for the question OP, 10-12 works.
>>98468235don’t, give them a chance at a normal life where they bathe and have normal social connections instead of hanging out with turbo autists and gay furries
>>98468235>>98468346>that comicOnly Zoomers and Alphtards could possibly think the universe existing before them means pop culture is being forced upon them when they encounter it normal life.Why? Because their parents are the first generation whose pop culture shares significant overlap with their childrens' pop culture.
>>98468235I've started with my friends in 10-12. But those were not real TTRPGs. Just some bizzare dungeon crawl homebrew I myself created following the clues of how D&D looks like.
>>98468407I don't think they think that. I think the comics is created by some bitter liberal American, seeing the protest against modern enshittification of pop culture as the culture war front. Those types love to argue against """nostalgia""".Zoomers and Alfas usually don't know any better (by design). When I talk with some of them, they often concerned about quality of modern pop culture and when introduced to old games, music and movies, they love them.I think it is because previously big money could produce something of a value, and entertainment market was less saturated with both slop and niche things. And now quality stuff is produced in a shed by indie teams of even single creators. You kind of have to do your homework to find gems now. And when you don't, it must be something community-based (Delta Rune) or should have free a advertisement of gargantuan proportions (FNaF).But I am not sure about Alfas, it seems they are all just get groomed in Roblox for 30 minutes a day, their parents allow them to use the tab or something.
>>98468235funny that when it's hormones and LGBT it's perfectly fine
I’ve seen a few parents of the type that the OP comic is referring to, and it’s definitely not the same as a parent who just happens to show the kid Star Wars and Back to the Future. It’s the nerd equivalent to the father who forces his kid to try out for sports teams every year despite the kid not enjoying them. Instead of just presenting the kid with opportunities to discover what they enjoy and encouraging them, they’re just trying to use the kid as a proxy to recapture their own youth.Like pretty much any parenting behavior, it can have superficial overlaps with more healthy modes, but there’s a very important line that gets crossed in deciding that it’s what the kid SHOULD enjoy.
>>98468235>gen alphaWhen they learn how to sit still and pay attention to something that isn't a screen.
>>98468253>mother>on 4chanlollmao
>>98468253Yeah
>>98468235So... the author of this comic would rather have a parent who doesn't try to share anything with their kid?
>>98468407>Why? Because their parents are the first generation whose pop culture shares significant overlap with their childrens' pop culture.Dubious. At the very least, millennial were taught to enjoy Star Wars and Star Trek from their own parents' generation. Many of us also learned from them about fantasy and RPGs.
>>98468235Depends on the kids.A fuckload of people born after 2000 are completely unable to play tabletop games because they lack the attention span to do so.This isn't unique to that age bracket, mind you. A large amount of people born before 2000 can't play them for the same reason and instead treat games as a social event to hang out, drink, get high, or do everything but game. Post 2000 age bracket just has a more pronounced reduced attention span due to constant attention grabbing shit like smartphones being a part of their life. It's why tabletop is a niche hobby.Just tell your nephews if they want to try playing table top RPGs, just let you know and you can run something for them. Put the ball in their court and don't be upset if they never pick that ball up.
>>98468543Rent-free>>98469050The author of the comic had a shitty parent and they're (inadvertently or otherwise) blaming that experience on nerd culture. >>98469507I think the best thing you can do is have game night somewhere where it's visible to them, or at least let them know that's what their parents are doing. If their interest is at all piqueable, they'll ask about it.
>>98468235Ignoring the bait comic, I would say 10 or so assuming they can play more complicated board and card games as well. If they have trouble playing anything more difficult than Uno or The Game of Life then you may need to wait a while.That said, avoid running D&D for them for their first campaign or else they will fall into the "only D&D" hole. Try a system BRP, GURPS Lite with Dungeon Fantasy, or the d6 RPG and run a shorter campaign before moving on to longer and more complicated campaigns.
>>98468253do you know what nephew means?
>>98468346did you not understand the point of the comic?
>>98469846A porn tag?
>>98469029I know of precisely one who uses 4chan.
>>98469534>The author of the comic had a shitty parent and they're (inadvertently or otherwise) blaming that experience on culture.Ftfy
>>98469852Yes, it's the sad, depressing, faggoty wailing of a delusional retard who thinks the perfectly normal practice of sharing the things you enjoy with younger relatives in the hopes of finding something you both click with that can be a fun hobby you share and spend time together doing is some kind of monstrous, heinous, overbearing imposition on the life of the young person. Rather than this being the perfectly normal, sane way that generations bonded for literally the whole of human history.
>millennials HATE other millennials sharing old stuff>zoomzooms love playstation 2 and retrowave and aero fruitigerWhy is this?
>>98470093Millennials are saturated with self-hatred and guilt over random bullshit, Zoomers are not
>>98468235
It's crazy how people on this website cannot see any silly image without immediately arriving at the absolute maximalist interpretation of what it might be supposed to portrait.The comic clearly says "don't force your identity on your kid regardless of what your kid wants". To think that this must mean "do not show your kid any stuff that you like" is being wilfully retarded.
>>98469504>millennial were taught to enjoy Star Wars and Star Trek from their own parents' generationThat IS the point of this old-ass webcomic btw. Notice it's Star Wars, an NES, and Back to the Future (most telling), 70s-early 80s slop that gen Xers and the younger boomers wouldve forced on their kids during the 90s.
>>98470093>>98470216Zoomer hands typed this.
I've got necromoulds on the way to play with my 4yo son. He's been very interested in my 40k.What am I in for bros?
>>98468235Once a kid can do some basic reading, identify numbers, do simple addition and subtraction, and follow instructions, they are ready to play most RPGs on the market. If you get them hooked effectively enough, you could end up doing them a major service by introducing them to the idea that reading and doing math and pursuing creative hobbies is rewarding for its own reason, rather than being strictly chores and homework to be avoided.
>>98470074A "no" would have sufficed.
>>98468235If they are old enough to be able to sit at the table quietly and observe, then that's how they can learn, at no cost to you outside of convincing the group they are mature enough.
>>98470541>be caught up in the current marketing trend instead if playing something with an ounce of replayablility and no micro transactionsYou raise a good point but given the current state of the market I'd be more inclined to make the poor bastard have painted blocks and whatever is in the local library as the only sources of entertainment than whatever the fuck the gen pop child is doing.
>>98472589No it wouldn't. Eat shit. Die in agony. Bitch.
>>98469504>millennial were taught to enjoy Star Wars and Star Trek from their own parents' generationThis is bullshit. We weren't "taught" to enjoy any of that crap. We discovered it on our own, liked it on our own, and our parents were surprised and happy to see that their kids were actually enjoying something that they enjoyed too. Our parents couldn't relate to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Power Rangers, or Pokemon, but they understood Star Wars. It was a source of bonding.Also, I hate that fucking comic the OP posted. It's sinister. It implies that parents aren't supposed to share what they love with their kids. That they shouldn't bond with them. That those activities should be left to others, like teachers. As if any parent wants the insane teachers of today dictating what their kids are exposed to.
>>98473436>As if any parent wants the insane teachers of today dictating what their kids are exposed to.What, was Angine de Poitrine too experimental?I'm a French teacher and it's a recent and relevant French cultural export, fuck you!
>>98468235I had introduced my wifes young cousins once removed to modern board games when they were 10 and 12. These are zoomers I guess.Now as young men they have become key members of my board game group that will take on anything I throw at them.And I've thrown a lot of niche bizarre and heavy rules / complex board states at them over the years.If they are interested, keep it coming. If they are turned off, don't force the matter.Simple as.
>>98468407Don't be a fucking faggot, you know what this comic means. Some Gen X father sat his millenial kid in front of the teevee to watch the OG Star Wars and the kid was like "Ugh Dad, this is so laaaame," and the dad got super butthurt about it, because muh nostalgia. I know a young couple where the dad BRAGS about the fact that he isn't going to get his kids any new consoles, but he already set up an N64 and PS2 so that his kid only plays those games. I'm not gonna call him out on it, because it's his kid and this isn't actively dangerous to him, but my thought is - what a fucking retard.
>>98473514>No-no, it means THISDon't be a fucking faggot yourself. You damn well fucking know that it doesn't mean that, it's some childless subhumanoid from California getting the fanny rash over other people connecting with their kids because everyone should be an atomized individual who has no connections to anyone.And to make my point, here's the artists about pagehttps://www.dakota-mcfadzean.com/aboutCorrection, he's a fucking leaf.Feel free to look at literally any comic he's made and roll in the faggy, self-indulgent nihilism of it.I mean for fuck sake, he's got a comic that includes both 'Neil deGrasse Tyson confirms aliens real' and 'I had to delete my socials because of trolls and dick pics'
>>98468485Nostalgia IS bad you dumb fucking faggot. First off, pop culture in general is pure ass cancer. With that out of the way, nostalgia IS shit because there's no objective value to it. People are going to think that the stuff they liked from age 9-21 is just the bees knees and pass off their dumb subjective opinions as objective (unless they're incredibly self aware). And the megacorps that do their best to shape your viewpoints are aware of this and so are manipulating you. The actual stuff may or may not be good, it doesn't actually matter.
>>98473436“Because a mother wolf can say to her cubs, 'Bite the way I do,' and that's enough, and the mother rabbit teaches her bunnies, 'Run for your lives the way I do,' and that's also enough, but if a man teaches children, 'Think as I do,' it's criminal.”
>>98473534>misuing the word nihilismAaaaaand opinion discarded. Yes the guy is huffing his own farts, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point, he just sucks ass at delivery. Nostalgia IS only a method of control to sell you more shit and they would LOVE IT if the previous generation taught impressionable children to love the same things so that they can sell you the same product again. And no the comic isn't about "Don't share things with your kid," it's "Don't force your kid into things you like."
>>98473413You are so wrong and so angry because of it. Very low IQ
>>98473534>leftist ignores the reality to rail against a strawman of its own creationTextbook.
>>98468235>That comicIt must suck to have a dad who's into lame shit like that. My old man got me into roman history and Cyber punk novels. I still get pints with him regularly, great guy
>>98473413Yeah it would stay mad :)
>>98470631We enjoy being angry and having things to endlessly whine about to make up for our sad, shallow lives.
>>98468235>What age should I introduce ... gen alphaPreferably never.
>>98473514>dad BRAGS about the fact that he isn't going to get his kids any new consolesNot getting kids particular things is not the same as forcing particular things onto them. It's normal, good parenting to forbid them from doing things you think will harm them. Whether you agree that new consoles should qualify is another matter.The comic takes the real issue of parents trying to live vicariously through their children in sports and arts, and misapplies it to pop culture. The former is bad because there's pressure to participate continuously and perform well: it suggests that parental love is conditional on their having this passion and skill. "Watch this movie I like" just isn't that demanding and doesn't escalate that far.
>>98473436>We discovered it on our own, liked it on our own, and our parents were surprised and happy to see that their kids were actually enjoying something that they enjoyed too.Speak for yourself. My dad took me to see Star Wars when it was back in theaters in the 90s.My mom got me playing Warcraft and reading Tolkien and signed me up for after-school D&D.>>98473483There's no way that dude approves of French cultural exports kek Good on you for expanding kids' horizons, though.
>>98473436>the insane teachers of todaylmaoYeah, the teachers have gone insane! That is what is wrong with society, sure.
>>98473534>>98473558>arty guy who focuses on Cartooning specifically also has opinions and expresses them as exaggerations of the everyday in variety of ways that highlight the absurdities of everyday life and how the common man must stoically persist in the face of annihilation Some of these are pretty fun ngl. Its nothing brilliant but its comic books, that's not really what they're for.
>>98474671There's a variety to it that seems more like they're just making note of things in our lives they think are odd or funny or juxtaposed.
>>98468235I went with boardgames of fairly simple sort like Hive, Set, Dixit, and just started increasing complexity every year at christmas and their birthdays aiming at games they seemed interested in. One of them really likes Battltech now, the other really likes story game sort of dnd and strategy games of any sort where they can plot our back and forth moves.
>>98474671Funny cat videos are all ai slop nowadays:(
>>98474683I've literally had this dream.
I introduced my young cousins to the idea when they were between 6 and 9. We played a super simplified version but they loved it. Kids will pick up on things they find cool extremely quickly and we tend to underestimate their abilities. It's been ~10 years since then and the youngest is still playing.
>>98474479When the spread of one's ideology requires ignorance, teachers are vilified. >>98474767Kids' brains are like sponges, provided that they give a shit. I sometimes teach BattleTech, and I wouldn't mind having some teenagers to teach.
>>98474802>provided that they give a shitYeah, you really gotta play to your audience with them. They're more voracious but with less forebearance for anything they don't immediately latch onto. My cousins grew up on fantasy literature so asking them if they wanted to be an Elf or Hobbit and if they wanted to be a Wizard or Knight was an instant sell.
>>98474448>My dad took me to see Star Wars when it was back in theaters in the 90s.My dad rented it and I laughed at the title, so he got buttflustered.He also once got excited when he heard that I was playing PC FPSs (He spends half the year out of country at work) and asked me if I had played Unreal Tournament and got disappointed with the answer. I still haven't touched a single unreal, or most quake games bar Quake 4's intro and Quake Wars against bots.He got frustrated when I said that I didn't care about the GoT tv-show despite being a fantasy and medieval dork.I don't watch sports, and he lives for football.My father was and still is a disappointed man.
>>98474802>When the spread of one's ideology requires ignorance, teachers are vilified.Oh yeah, because there haven't been published cases of teachers putting up political flags in classroms, or due to political-zealots, CRT, and general LGBT-cult morons being unable to not sperg out and attempt to indoctrinate kids while on the clock.Nuh uh, that is ignorance to claim!
>>98474925>attempt to indoctrinate kids while on the clock.That's... literally my job?When governments decide: curriculums are updated and materials change, it's either get with the program or change fields. The profession needs to stick to the script established by bureaucrats and the education program.
>>98474802objectively teachers have gone down in quality, spiteful bitches not mentally developed beyond highschool themselves go to teaching as a backup option. the helecopter parenting-> social media simulacrum of normal social life-college adult daycare pipeline for women is objectivley more pathetic than gacha gamers.That we let them have access to children 8 hours a day for most of the year is an evil that we will look back on as we do now at tablet kids.
>>98475566>objectively teachers have gone down in qualityI see, you are very convincing.
>>98468235I feel like the only way to do this is to keep books and things within reach, and let the kids discover it themselves. One of my early memories was finding my Dad's AD&D set, reading the DMs guide, and trying to play it in my head (I seem to recall a sample dungeon with "the limed over abbot's skeleton" as a feature in a room), despite having zero idea of how the game actually worked. Learning is inspired by curiosity, and if you aren't curious about the subject, you're not gonna learn, nor will you care. Same with Star Wars and all the other nerd shit. I bet that visual enclyopedia inspired more love for the franchise than the movies, games, and toys ever did.
>>98473514>my thought is - what a fucking retard.Even if he's doing this because he's a nostalgiafag, the truth is that the kid will be spared from aggressive advertisements meant to get him addicted to spending money for pointless digital crap
>>98474897>I still haven't touched a single unreal, or most quake games bar Quake 4's intro and Quake Wars against bots.Why not give them a try?You never know, you might enjoy them. No need to mention it to him one way or the other until you decide if you're into it.
>>98475566>for women Ahhhh now your actual issue surfaces.
>>98474744I had a similar dream bit I had lost a hand an!reattached it but it kept falling off every couple seconds
>Number of retards in this thread going "Urgh, my parents tried to share things with me, that's cringe"One day they'll be gone and you're going to live with the gap they left behind.And unlike most people, you won't be able to do the things shared with them, learned from them and still love to do, giving you that feeling of still being connected to them in some, small way.Enjoy reigning in hell, you buncha fuckin' assholes.
>>98475747who do you think gets into teaching? you don't think, you device, gaslight and only argue in bad faith, you're creating a miserable life for yourself and have been since you where put in front of the Disney channel back in the pre 2010's
>>98469029It's 2026, 4chan became and then fell out of the mainstream a decade ago, Anon. It hasn't been an edgy underground subversive website since before m00t left. Everyone knows about this place and very few people even care at this point; we are just a newer SA now.
>>98475813>who do you think gets into teaching?Anon I work in the field and finished the teaching degree a few years ago. The genders were not skewed.I've since worked at a variety of different schools within and beyond my region, and again, it is balanced.You can blow out of your ass all of you want, but it's one hell of a tepid, wet fart.
>>98475813>>98475566>It's bad that women are raising our kidsStrong argument there. I'm glad to see you don't believe in traditional gender roles, at least. >>98475860There are people for whom disgusting hobbies on 4chan instead of on reddit is a badge of honor in their culture war. They literally do not realize that most of /tg/ also visits hobby subreddits. All they care about is that, 10 years ago, they heard that 4chan was subversive and edgy, and that's what they want to be. So they come here and LARP at being subversive, not realizing that the real magic of 4chan relied on spontaneity and authenticity.
>>98469852It's an absurd strawman.
>>98475900>The genders were not skewed.ntayrt This sort of shit is how we know you're a liar and here in very bad faith.
Here have some more while we're off toping the fuck out this one. Sure is no cultural war happening here. Nuhuh. >>98475929If its all the same, why are you here? If its all normal, why push for things that you want to normalize here on a daily basis?
>>98468235are they on HRT yet?
>>98473541> Subjective opinion
>>98468235I was six when I played my first game. Figure out their intelligence and attention span with other games and move up rpgs. I'd hope they'd be used to being read stories to. Find something that simulates choosing between various options. Who isn't a sucker for gambling? Try, briefly, now and try every successive year until they're ready. Also shove their head into the hobby like your picture. Brilliant.
>>98476047Damn, predditor-kun, straight to business.
>>98468235Get them to read a book first
>>98476047>>98476427>Trolls trolling trolls
>>98475929Traditional gender roles have women nursing infants, not teaching boys. Education was overwhelmingly sex segregated. And not just western formal education; if you told almost anyone in history that 10 year old boys should be taught to be men by women, they would think you were retarded.
>>98473514If you sit a kid down to watch episode 4 and they aren't enthralled there IS something wrong with them
>>98476005Back in the 90s, I didn't have a male teacher until the 4th grade. He was the only male 4th grade teacher and go figure he was the one that got to teach the "advanced" math class. 5th grade there were 2 male teachers, but then in 6th grade it was all females again, until finally in middle school it started to even out a bit more, but female teachers always outnumbered the male.That's what it was like for me in the 90s. I'm well aware that it has only gotten worse since then. But look what board we're on anon. We all know that the gaslighting ideologues love infiltrating the hobbies and subverting everything. They're evil. Most people try to look for some complex answer or justification for their actions, but in the end, there isn't one. They're just plain evil.
>>98478218>Back in the 90s, I didn't have a male teacher until the 4th gradeand my 90s experience was grade 2 first male teacher.oh no what prize do i win?you wail and clutch your pearls like the worst Karen. won't somebody please think of the children!
>>98473514No, the comic means that some butthurt lib saw a father and son bonding over something that wasn't the "nu thing" and got assmad about it.I know because I have acquaintances who are like that, they get real snippy and passive aggressive when people say they prefer old stuff to new releases and the younger they are the more angry they get.
The sterile faggot behind the comic literally writes whiny comics about veganism for the new yorker.
>>98468235When they show an interest, if they never show an interest, never introduce them, if they show an interest at age 5 introduce them at age 5. Kids can be introduced to hobbies without needing to learn the rules. Daughter saw me painting models, was interested, so we bought some she likes and painted them as she wanted, I primed them, she basecoated, I added some details (a five year old does not have a steady hand and ruining a model pissed her off), and she applied the wash.
>>98475966In my experience it isn't. Sharing interests isn't forcing them on others and I've witnessed plenty of parents forcing their interests on others.>Sharing interests"Hey you wanna (play my video game, watch this show, watch this sport, play this game)?">Forcing interests"Time for daddy daughter time as we play games on the atari. Time for daddy daughter time as we go buy pokemon cards and open packs. Time for daddy daughter time as we listen to the beetles because daddy is a hipster."
>>98478303Here's a fun fact. 99% of the time those "forced" activities will still be cherished childhood memories even if the kid never ends up liking that stuff. My father "forced" me as you would put it to help him in his shop, an activity i had zero interest in. I wouldn't trade those moments for anything.
>>98478346There's only 2 kinds of people who agree with the OP comic.Soulless, bitter bugmen who don't have children but desperately want other people to not connect with theirs so they have an opening to influence them later in life.And people who still have their folks around and think they'll be there forever.
>>98478369There's a 3rd type I think. Grown ass adults who resent their parents because they discovered they are not infallible gods and this revelation shook them to their core. They look back at every interaction with their parents through these bitter lenses. So "forced" activities are viewed as emotional torment and abuse instead of parent trying to spend time with their kid.
>>98478391I'd put that under 'Bitter, soulless bugmen' personally. The world is imperfect and they have to go sit on the toilet to shit instead of it walking itself to the bathroom and flushing itself, therefore everything is terrible.Utopianists are the biggest bugmen and those who expect Daddy to look after them for their entire lives are the biggest Utopianists possible.
>>98478245Other anon already posted the stats. The days of feminist power are done. Everyone that promotes or supports any sort of female empowerment will not be tolerated. Your era is over and we no longer even entertain the evil lies of cunts like you.
>>98478690I'm feel pity for your broken mind. May explain why you are childless.
>>98478690You are correct, we've perfected the science. The day of the Tranny has begun.
>>98478303This is the kind of nonsense that comes from expecting parents and their children to be friends. Kids require parents to be authority figures, which includes the authority to decide how to spend their time. Deciding on a leisure activity the kid doesn't like is not a war crime, it's a mistake born of being too absent or emotionally retarded to know what your child enjoys.Also what kind of faggot thinks The Beatles are a hipster band, and can't even spell their name? They're one of the biggest bands in history.
>>98473541you're the type of guy who consumes product and then gets exicted for next product aren't you.
>>98470074what a fine retort!>>98472589except he did get the point. exactly. on the nail.
>>98468235Well gen alpha is only just being born this year so wait and see when they're mature and capable.
1.5 yrs. He's already making whooshing sounds waving model spaceships around.>>98468253Brutal
>>98475811>Enjoy reigning in hell, you buncha fuckin' assholesIn a way that's the parents' legacy so joke is on them
>>98474802>When the spread of one's ideology requires ignorance, teachers are vilified.When your control requires ignorance, teachers are idolized.>you could never understand it enough to form your own opinion, trust the experts>they're infallible, they would never lie or manipulate youTell me, did you read your Bible today?
>>98475966>strawmanWhat argument is being misrepresented here?
>>98468235The author is correct. It is wrong to force your manchild crap on your son.
>>98468235His parents don't want him doing any of that weird nerd shit that will lead to him being an incel too.
>>98486301>His parents don't want him doing any of that weird nerd shit that will lead to him being an incel too.>If he does the things his parents did he'll become an incel>Just like his parentsWords have no meaning for you people do they?
>>98477409You really don't understand. Traditionally, in every culture, most children were homeschooled. When given free career choice, much more women will choose to be teachers and more men will not.
>>98470093I love watching younger people listen to my 90s and 00s bands for the first time, where is this seethe coming from young man?
>>98486531Reread what I wrote and think about how dumb you are.
>>98480670I don't consoom anything and am not a fan of anything. Tribalism is for faggots.
>>98478346That's because you're a mindless sheep faggot who can't imagine standing on his own two feet.
>>98478260>my anecdotal evidence that is entirely made up trumps what the author is actually sayingbravo
>>98468235When did you become the dad in the comic /tg/?
>>98492240I'm rather becoming the opposite, keeping anyone born this century as far away from my hobbies as physically possible.
>>98492371Why are you ashamed of your hobbies?
>>98492929I just don't want to actively involve people I dislike into things I like. It's bad enough that some will find their way there anyway.
>>98492977Oh lol I get it, its the other way. Carry on gateman.
>>98475929>reddit subhumans openly gloating about sloughing into cuckchan nowYou need to kill yourself
>>98474897Unreal was tha bomb. Sooooo many hours spent wasting weak wannabees like you and laughing at you until you ragequit
>>98478303>Time for daddy daughter time>Time for daddy daughter time>Time for daddy daughter timemoid predofile or foid daddy issuesCall it
>>98474897>>I still haven't touched a single unreal>your dad every time the Unreal Engine logo pops up on your screen
>>98492170>I don't consoom>happily consumes 4chan posts for 20 hours a daylol