I find it tricky when one PC decides to take an aggressive stance on a subject that is, within the in-universe setting itself, considered a hot-button wedge issue, and makes it their ambition to have their camp "win."This is tricky for me because I have to strike a very fine balance between presenting both sides of the issue. I have to alternate between vindicating the PC (showing evidence that they are right, presenting NPCs sympathetic to the PC's side) and challenging the PC (showing evidence that they are wrong, presenting NPCs who oppose the PC's side). Then, if and when the PC ultimately triumphs, I have to make the victory feel worthwhile, without it being "Hooray! It turns out you were 100% right all along, and everybody hails you as a hero!"How do you personally handle it?(Continued.)
Here is an example in a game I am running. It is a mixed Chronicles of Darkness game, mostly Mage: The Awakening 2e and Changeling: The Lost 2e. The local mages and changelings frequently mingle.One mage PC has recently learned about fetches and is horrified... not because fetches are artificial, soulless doppelgängers of humans kidnapped by the True Fae, but because many changelings kill fetches to reclaim old lives. This mage recognizes that some fetches are violent and amoral, but reckons that since many fetches are normal people with some quirks, then changelings are conducting a morally reprehensible genocide. This mage PC has thus resolved to stop to this genocide: in the city, anyway.By my read of the Changeling: The Lost 2e core rulebook, the subject of fetches is, in-universe, supposed to be morally ambiguous and a matter of intense debate amongst changelings themselves. I have no strong out-of-universe stance on this subject, so I am inclined to keep it morally ambiguous.Thus far, this PC has met a highly sympathetic fetch (i.e. vindicating and supporting the PC), but has also met an aggressively anti-fetch Summer Court changeling whose stance seems roughly supported by other changelings (i.e. challenging the PC). They have yet to meet any violent and amoral fetches, but have already preemptively rationalized that such are in the minority.Right now, there are two complications for the PC. One, it is currently summer, which is traditionally fetch-killing season. Two, the Duchess of Truth and Loss is in town, and she is metaphysically recognized as the #1 fetch killer in the world.Further twisting the situation, said Duchess is actually embarking on a research project to help fetches become human. The PC even met and helped the Duchess on this. However, the PC has decided that the Duchess's kill count is too high and too unforgivable, and she must be brought to justice regardless.How would you handle this balancing act satisfactorily?
Going to quote the Changeling: The Lost 2e core rulebook for its own view on the subject:>The Fetch as a Question of Humanity>Strictly speaking, changelings don’t have to feel bad about killing fetches. Not only are they manifestly not human, they are creations of the Gentry. They are living reminders of what a changeling has lost, and of the ongoing power the Gentry wield over the world. Destroying a fetch is not like killing a human being, not in any moral or literal sense.>It is possible for a fetch to adopt humanity, in a way. If a fetch displays human traits, and treats other people with respect and empathy (both of which can be learned), then in what meaningful way does it differ from humanity? One changeling might say it doesn’t, and try to come to some kind of resolution. Maybe the changeling helps the fetch adopt a new identity, or maybe the changeling, altered by her time in Arcadia, moves on, letting her fetch have the life the Gentry took from her.>Another changeling might claim that aping humanity is irrelevant. The fetch is an automaton, a living (or at least animate) lie of the Gentry, and destruction is perfectly justified. Both changelings are “right.” Both positions are defensible. Both have the potential for powerful stories, especially if the changeling makes her decision but then has to deal with other Lost who “know better.”The current plan is to present a new scenario: some completely normal person who caught a glimpse that their spouse, whom they have been having sex with and trying to conceive with, is actually some horrific monster. They are now looking for some sort of "monster hunter" to deal with the problem.But also, there still has to be some vindication, right?
>>98482994Man, I just run dungeons with a clearly evil wizard or demon or whatever at the end. If you need three posts to explain your story, you should probably just write a book.
IIRC, all Fetches have a weird ass killswitch built in and go into Terminator mode once they realize their respective Changeling is in their area. I'd have the mage meet and befriend a friendly Changeling, who is then set upon by the previously sympathetic Fetch. Or reveal a body that looks like said Fetch's.
>>98483579I do not know if such a thing existed in 1e, but I do not think it exists in 2e, judging from my examination of the fetch rules.After asking the player, they want their character to successfully bring justice to the Duchess of Truth and Loss by ensuring that she never kills a fetch again (killing her is not necessary), and to shut down the research project to let fetches become human (because it involves a Promethean state as an intermediate stage).So at bare minimum, they want their character to make major strides in defending the honor of fetches. Or in other words, their out-of-character desire is to see their in-character desire succeed.
>>98483763Oh, and they also want to destroy the entitlement of the Duke/Duchess of Truth and Loss, too.
just step back from the need to even-handedly pat the player on the head, they chose to go into moral grey versus grey, whatever makes mechanistic sense the most should just happen whether it makes them happy or not
>>98482994My solution is simple:Since I have fun with games that are focused on combat, all of the included character options (race, background, discipline) have a stake in fighting the invaders, monsters, predators, and undead in some way, shape, or form, and all the aforementioned invaders, monsters, predators, and undead can't be coerced, persuaded, reasoned with, redeemed, or tolerated.Essentially, since I don't include lore settings hot-button wedge issues worldbuilding stories, and I'm satisfied with that.
>>98482994>>98483000Frankly, Edna, I’d talk to the player to understand why they’re fixated on this topic. Like if it’s a character goal or if they personally feel peeved as a person about it. Especially since it doesn’t sound like you’re all that enthused about how this player is trying to make the fetches the focus of this campaign. It’s easier to find a balancing act once you’ve both understood what goals you’re trying to align.
>>98482994>>98483000>Player finds an ingame goal to pursue>Storyshitter DM has a meltdown
>>98484227If I was a storyshitter DM I'd be over the moon that a player is interacting with the central hook of the setting instead of being a neutral good drone who accepts whatever missions my quest giving npc gives
>>98484227Eh, not every GM will be gung ho about pivoting from a campaign to stop the evil necromancer to a fight for gay marriage just because the party decided that’s their thing
>>98484115My man came into a thread asking about a matter for Changeling the Lost and asked "Have you tried playing DND?" As for how to challenge them, have a Fetch side with the Duchess' plan. Possibly the Synpathetic one and to really twist the knife have them be stubborn about the risks of working with her.
>>98483000>>98483019This moral dilemma only works if Fetches aren't literally just piles of twigs and dirt molded together by malicious fae magic. They are effectively p-zombies who have no souls and exist to just go through the motions of pretending to be a person, thanks to the highly elaborate illusory magic and a fragment of the changeling's shadow. It's not even consistent if the fetch will be an exact copy that lives the stolen life exactly as the original would have, or if they are just barely functional zombies who roughly pantomime an approximation of what a real person is like.
>>98484227buddy this reads as the st caring about his player and trying to accommodate him properly, if you think this is a meltdown then maybe you've had too many meltdowns yourself
>>98482994>How do you personally handle it?I'm willing to throw the issue's ambiguity away and canonise "the PC was right all along" as long asA) No other PC opposesB) The PC is putting in effort to be victorious on his questIf A or B is violated - OOC discussion.
>>98483019>But also, there still has to be some vindication, right?Why? Its presented with moral ambiguity and you hold that ambiguity, its more interesting than giving them a clear answer at the end to feel good about themselves. >>98483763>>98483797Its a World of Darkness game, not a World of Morally Good Feelings game. Overall I handle things like that by not playing with people who can't separate irl feelings and desires from the game we're playing and I don't run games that have a requirement in the gameplay for the player characters to succeed in fulfilling their desires all the time. You're stuck in the role of fulfilling various conflicting power fantasies, more emotional management than playing a game. If its too late to pull the plug your best bet is to resolve it asap and not invite the player who can't handle it back.
>>98483763So, to summarize: You want advice to resolve a situation where a Mage PC wants to stop the killing of Fetches by Changelings. During the traditional Fetch-killing season. And to turn against the Duchess, the #1 worldwide Fetch killer, whom they have supported in the past. Because the PC thinks that Fetches are people. If you don't want the PC to start a war with the Changeling Court, the easiest solution at this point is to have the other PCs stop them or change their approach (maybe the PC can put a bounty on Fetches that's better than having them killed). If you do want to explore that conflict, have a True Fae turn up to support the PC. If you want to incite further drama, have the PC find their favorite mundane NPC replaced by a Fetch. I advise first talking to the player obsessed with Fetches about why they want to do this to the campaign.
Edna, you should be thankful that your players have some moral stances in a game of WOD of all things. You sound like... some guy whining that their players are being scared in a Cthulhu game.Just embrace it, fuck the "neutrality" in the book (which isn't even there, judging by your own citation). This is a matter of politics, the PCs vs the Duchess - can they bring her to justice? How will other NPCs respond? What will it take to convince them (maybe the case of a truly innocent and human fetch presented to the court or whoever it's called in Changeling - maybe a case that they will "embellish" to further their cause).
>>98482994>How do you personally handle it?It is not my job as a GM to show them anything. I decide what is in the game world and how characters in that game world interprets that world. The player gets to interpret what their character thinks and feels. If they decide to let their character take a strong stance on an issue, then that is their cross to bear. I am not supposed to interfere as a GM, neither to vindicate nor to oppose. My job is only to decide what stance an NPC reasonably will have, then present that stance as best I can. If the PC makes a compelling argument and the NPC doesn't have a good counter argument, then they may be persuaded. If they are invested in being right as the opposing side, then they might not be persuaded. Regardless, I must never ever rearrange or modify the game world for the sake of the PC. That devalues and cheapens player decision, and if my behaviour is discovered, it will erode player sense of accomplishment. Why even try to take a difficult stance or do something out of the ordinary if I know the GM will rearrange the world so it fits my ambitions?>How would you handle this balancing act satisfactorily?I would, to the best of my ability, let the NPCs have the stances they ought to have based on the information those NPCs have access to. I would then have those NPCs react the way people tend to react when their strongly held beliefs are challenged. A minority rethinks their position, and the majority treats a questioning of a strongly held belief as a direct attack on their person and their culture's way of life. Then I would let the NPCs make decisions based on those variables.
>>98482994>When the kingdom has gay marriage
>>98484584D&D doesn't have what I described.
>>98482994No, you don't have to do any of that. Who told you that you do?
>>98483000How is kidnapping and replacing someone and stealing their life, effectively murdering them, morally ambiguous? Are you a psychopath?
>>98483019It differs in this way : If it was actually human, it wouldn't need to steal someone else's life. Pretty simple. Are the authors retarded?
>>98484584Yeah, Changeling is a shit game, like all world of darkness games. The solution to the problem is to play something else. Retard.
>>98482994How do gentry benefit from making fetches?
>>98482994Just have a dragon and/or an army attack the city they're in or something. Anything to get them back to the main plot and stop faffing around with fetch nonsense.
No real answer?Yeah, I thought not.
>>98490307if you want real answers then ask a real question
>>98487276They think it's funny.
>>98491443I didn't ask a question, I made a statement in opposition to OP's non-issue, because this is a discussion board.
The funniest thing to come out of this entire saga is the PC unironically speaking the term "soul supremacist" (because fetches do not quite have true souls, and thus, prejudice against fetches is being a "soul supremacist"). It sounds so funny to me. Chef's kiss, truly.
