>Vancian MAGIC sucks!>Checks inside the alternative>Less spells, less diversity of magic and "you have to do it yourself" scamsWhy this keeps happening? I'm not defending DnD but nobody puts effort on their awesume magic system they claim is better.
>>98492272If you just want another system that has a big list of spells, but isn't vancian, you're just going to encounter the same bullshit problems that come with rigidly formalizing the magic system in a way that just leads to spergy buildcraft bottlenecking like D&D has anyways. And it's not like D&D has done much except tweak the wording and damage on the spells list from 3rd edition for the last 20 years, which just leads to people abusing the same handful of spells regardless of context, setting, or whatever.
>>98492272Vancian magic is, generally speaking, both overly limiting and immediately colors your setting with a certain brush.If you're going with a spell list, I think a spell point system is better for more generic fantasy, unless your goal is to literally just ape D&D.And since magic is both narrative and mechanical some systems will favor a more narrative system depending on the goal of the game.When viewed from the framework of D&D style dungeon crawling these can seem lacking, but really that's just a viewpoint clash rather than that design being inherently wrong.>Less spells, less diversity of magic and "you have to do it yourself" scamsThis is usually considered a positive for most people critical of Vancian magic.One of the more common complaints about it is that wizards that do anything and everything are some combination of overpowered, conceptually lacking, or just plain boring.Limitations breed creativity and all that jazz.These are just my unfiltered dogshit opinions, though, and I'm sure someone will come along to disagree with me.
>>98492272Some actual variety in how spells are used would go a long way to make bog standard D&D magic more interesting. Having a unique system that tells you that this is divine magic or this is arcane magic or some shit is apparently too much for even the lowest denomenator of people to handle.
>>98492272L5R 5e already did, "magic" is just knowing how to ask the right spirit to do something, and no matter how skilled you are there's always a chance something goes wrong so it can never be so powerful that it invalidates other skills.
>>98492408One of the things Genesys does well is magic, different magic skills, Arcane, Divine, Verse, etc, have access to different spell types, but you build your spells on the fly by adding additional effects, the more you add the harder it is to cast, and there are ways to cut down that difficulty and add specialization in different kinds of magic. There are no spell levels, you have access to every otion from the start, it's just a matter of what spell difficulty you can consistently handle.
>>98492401FPBP, as always.
>>98492401>If you just want another system that has a big list of spells,Yes!>you're just going to encounter the same bullshitNo! And if you wanted to tackle this argument you should have follow up with a proper reasoning of why this is the case instead of treating it like if self evident. >rigidly formalizingThis is an oxymoron and a meaningless term. Magic system implies already a set of rules formalized. Otherwise it wouldn't be a system, it would be just magic.>spergy buildcraft bottlenecking like D&DBuildcrafting wasn't even a thing in DnD until DnD 3.x. So the argument that Vancian magic leads to buildcrafting is a non-sequitur.If you just want a free form bullshit "narrative" system everything goes, go for that. But there's 0 correlation between having a good spell lists and buildshittery. And if you don't include spells in your "magic system" then you just have another flavor of "narrative bullshit everything goes". Which is fine but not an actual competitor of DnD.
>>98492272This is retarded. FF7 characters don't have classes and if they did Tifa would be thematically a monk.
>>98493205>This is an oxymoronNah that's you, moron. Your whole post reads as "NUH UH (and spoonfeed me because I don't know shit about shit!)"
>>98492401>If you just want another system that has a big list of spellsSuch as?
>>98493344>Crying like a bitch after getting BTFO, point by pointConsider looking for a gun and blowing your heads out, retarded shit stirrer!
There's two ways to fix Vancian Magic.> Give casters basic list of spells they can spam as much as they want so they don't need to burn slots to do anything at all>Every caster needs to be at least 3/4ths BAB equivalent in general weapon potency and have decent HDNo one seems to like the idea of a wizard who whips out their sword because a goblin isn't worth using a whole fireball on, so... option one it is. And yea 5E already did it and the issue is fixed.
>>98493367GURPS has a long selection of spells, but they're extremely lame and not even better than the ones in DnD. They're not funnier or cooler to use.
>>98493452Okay so it doesn't qualify. What else?
>>98493445Your image is poo, read verse 10 numbskull.
>>98492272>>98493205Your fundamental problem seems to be that you disagree with the people saying Vancian magic sucks, and therefore you don't view their fix as a solution.What exactly do you think the problem with Vancian magic is?
>>98493486Then you make your own image that has every verse in the bible in it and post that.
>>98492759But that's just Mage the Awakening 2e.
>>98493597No, Vancian magic sucks. I just criticized this idea that if you want cool spells you either play DnD o "everything goes!" pseudo system.
>>98493647>No, Vancian magic sucks.Right, I'm saying you disagree with other people who also think it sucks about why it sucks. Which is why I asked what you think the problem with Vancian magic is.
>>98493671Not the thread topic.
>>98493681Oh, sorry>why is so hard to make a cool magic system?Because you can ask someone what's wrong with a magic system and they won't tell you.
>>98492272I expect someone who says that to at least read different systems.the one of M:tA is a valid one, I hate it.The Mana-based from GURPS is excellent (and even better with the Unlimited Mana option... at a cost).You could go with Lady Blackbird magic system also, or with (not actually magic, but it makes sense) Magpie Games AtLAś PbtAed system and it makes more sense than those stupid wizards of the coast.Fuck I've DM'd 8 years worth of Pathfinder and I still think it's horrible, but at least try.
>>98493690Still not on topic.
>>98493439You're way too angry for someone who believes that they won and internet argument, my guy.
>>98493707Then delete it with your mod powers
>>98493728Still going off topic.
>>98493695This guy hasn't even explained his problems with vancian magic after being asked.I would not expect competence from him
>>98493671I'm not the other person who responded to you.>Which is why I asked what you think the problem with Vancian magic is.the metaphysical framework is retarded. but besides that is a fucking corpo system that hasn't evolved since 20 years ago. is just boring at this point. yeah fireball and shit whatever. i want something new. is this too much to ask? i will do my own magic system with hookers!!!!
>>98493632No, Mage is Calvinball, your power is what you can talk the ST into allowing. That's why Mage is retarded.
>>98493768But that's just Genesys.
>>98493780Wrong
>>98492272Name three examples. Literally anything is better than D&D, which doesn't represent anything from any fantasy setting ever conceived. It doesn't even have true "Vancian Magic", but some bastardized interpretation of it. I'm not even talking about 5E. No edition of D&D has true Vancian Magic.
>>98492272>"you have to do it yourself" scamsHow is being able to create your own spells on the fly a scam? It's just more versatility than D&DFinder offers.
>>98492401and thats why you should remove most magical abillity/choice from the players. All the theater kids will cry they cannot play their therapy self insert character, but who cares.
>>98493931If you are playing with or catering to theater kids, the game isn't the problem.
>>98493941>If you are playing with or catering to theater kids, the game isn't the problem.Im not, which is why I dont have the problem. The mentality that a DM is required to allow everything WOTC has ever published for the system started in 3E and those players/DMs ruined the game.
