Charisma should not be the primary "casting" nor "martial" stat of any class but it should always be useful and worth pumping points into, if not even focusing on entirely. It would make dumping or pumping or just keeping charisma even a rather valid choice for both a warrior or a caster. A mage for instance could use their charisma to bolster their illusion spells or to make their use of fireballs more terrifying and a martial could be a commander of other droogs or a leader of thieves and such. There is something inherently onions about just using your sheer power of rizz as a direct battery rather than using it as a supplement to your other abilities. That is why you get all of these fruity 5efag classes that use their charisma for every fucking thing. On a materialist (Philosophical) manner this is simply giving theatre kids an excuse to be nothing but rizzers who are feeble retarded fools but they are also good at dancing! Like every other 5e character. Hell, like most 3.5 characters as well.
I don't even think charisma should be a stat. If you can't roleplay your way out of a paper bag you shouldn't be allowed to play a diplomancer.
>>98507148There should be room for a stat that increases the offensive and/or defensive capabilities of your comrades. Even though Kotor 1 and 2 are piss easy games, charisma does increase the hit chance of your allies physical attacks at the very least.
>>98507130Have you tried not playing D&D?
>>98507171Are there games with more than two primary stats that dictate how social you are? Well outside of traveller, but that game has Intelligence do every fucking thing.Shadowrun? All charisma and it can be a primary casting stat. Gurps? I guess that can count?
Just play a different game then...
>>98507130What if Charisma was instead 'influence', a measure of the forces/diplomacy/organisations that the character is supposed to be able to bring to bare? So an uncharismatic Highborn noble who birthed his way to the front of a noble lineage could have the same value as a charismatic priest who wheeled, dined and rose through his ecclesiarchy to could both have the same 'influence' stat to put pressure on people with but for different reasons.
>>98507181Word of Darkness has socials split into Charisma, Manipulation, and AppearanceThough charming and bullshitting people also comes down to Intelligence and Wits.That's five, obviously most situations won't call for all of them at the same time.
>>98507148Roleplaying is making decisions, and charisma isn't required to do so.
>>98507130Fireball, Carrier Attack : Emotion Control (Fear)To make Illusions more effective, invest more ranks in Illusions.Instead of making one attribute do everything and making all the other choices irrelevant, you can be good at things by just investing in the things you want to do.Don't ever design games.
>>98507195You mean like Patron, Fame, Contacts, and Reputation, all options that already exist in good games? Why are you trying to invent things that already exist?
>>98507512I'm just thinking about some bad experiences I had in 3.5 where one of the people I was playing with would just say "I roll diplomacy to change his mind" without even trying to come up with a coherent argument out of character.
>>98508112Ok? So what? The rules say that you get X change in attitude for Y result on a diplomacy check, and they don't say anything else. Why are you ignoring the rules?
>>98508124What you're describing isn't role-playing is power gaming. If everyone else at the table is rping their dialogue and he is just there throwing dice like it's a to hit roll it's fucking with the group's vibe. It's the same reason why I enforce people role playing their characters intelligence stat. It doesn't matter if you know the solution out of character your Int 7 barbarian isn't the guy who's going to solve the fucking puzzle. This is why I started DMing 4e.
>>98508152Wrong. Roleplaying is making decisions.It's exactly like a to-hit roll, in fact. You're interacting with a system to gain some kind of gameplay benefit. Ie. playing a game.
>>98507130Charisma = more money = more items to buy and useSimple as.
>>98507148I don't even think strength should be a stat. If you can't fight your way out of a paper bag yoh shouldn't be allowed to play a weapon user.
>>98508112I'm just thinking about some bad experiences I had in 3.5 where one of the people I was playing with would just say "I roll to hit" without even trying to come up with a coherent approach out of character.
>>98507537>Redditor>Proposed system is just dumbing down everything>DON'T EVER DESIGN GAMESThis is the exact post quality /tg/ needs.
>>98508366Indeed, making a single attribute useful for everything would dumb down the game, which is my solution is better.
>>98508333>Everyone should be buffTrips of truth.
>>98508333I don't even thing intelligence should be a stat. If you're a retard and can't figure out a way out of a paper bag, you shouldn't be able to play ummm, anything more than animals
>>98507148I never understood this mentality that in order to play a charismatic character in a game you need to also be charismatic out of game. Fighter players don't need to be super strong and wizard players don't need to be super smart, so why the double standard?
>>98508966>play 5e with mentally disabled guy as part of caretaking>he plays a wizard>intelligence and strength both highest stats>he proceeds to beat the fuck out of every NPC with his barehands>never casts a single spell
>>98509705It's a knee-jerk reaction to how powerful the diplomacy skill was in 3.5. if you built your character right even a low level diplomancer could convince a complete stranger to die for their cause.
>>98507148If you can't lift a boulder in real life, you can't play a strength based, character.
>>98513423See >>98513423It was just too suspension of disbelief breaking.
>>98507148Fpbp and /thread
>>98509705The truth is in real life it always means "you should not be completely retarded spreg who can't even say a coherent sentence and force GM to talk with himself like some animator among disabled kids".
>>98507148It's hilarious how low charisma people will try to compare this to other stats, not realizing that playing tabletop IS a charisma activity.You use your real life mental stats in tabletop. If you attempt to play something beyond your means, it's extremely obvious.
>>98513454This.It's incredible how many people can't even string together a statement that means anything. I can understand this kind of dickering if you're trying to buy time or something, but if you're trying to convince someone of something it's retarded.
>>98513876Right but I can play a character who is good at hacking without actually knowing anything about computers, my DM expecting me to explain how my character actually breaks through a firewall accurately is retarded however. You can simply say "my character hacks the computer" just like you can say "my character persuades the guard to leave his post".
>>98514435That would make sense if it was a magic spell or psionic power. The problem is it's just a regular skill being treated like magic or psionic power.
>>98507148Unfathomably based>>98508333>>98509705>>98513423The predictable cope
>>98507148In Rogue Trader, I'm the talker of our group, and I'm considered a very good talker, both my character statwise and me irl(well, at least when Im playing a game). In D&D, I play a talking frog. Everything I say, no matter how charming or convincing, is automatically lessened by the fact that it is coming out of the mouth of a three foot tall amphibian. This is a perfect example of what that stat is good for, a mathematical computation to see how offputting me being a talking frog is to someone when trying to convince them of something, and if I were playing some handsome suave adonis with a nice voice, then it would be how much that improves whatever I say.A DM also does not need to treat the Charisma stat like magic, in fact they absolutely should not. If you awkwardly babble some retarded shit and roll a 20 on persuasion, that doesn't mean that your retardbabble suddenly became a convincing argument, it just means it become as convincing as it possibly could be, which still might not be good enough.
5e kids treat charisma stat as some sort of Mary Sue level. High charisma, You're more of a Mary Sue.
>>98507148>diplomancerThe whole point of a diplomancer is that you sell improbable lies and unlikely truths to people in spite of how ridiculous it sounds. You can't roleplay animal magnetism that makes people simply believe you but that's no reason to bar people from playing a character who does that. Just like a retard can't roleplay a genius.>>98514479>midwit samefag pats himself on the backFor as long as DnD has existed, a convincing lie gets a bonus, a bad lie gets a penalty, but charisma is as much a character attribute as strength or wisdom are. People keep trying to 'solve' 'problems' in DnD that aren't problems with the system, they're problems with the DM who didn't read the books or refuses to follow them.
>>98514565That isn't same fagging.
>>98514577>obvious samefag insists it isn't samefagging after being caught wanking himself offlol
>>98514584If I was capable of taking a screenshot of the entire thread I could show you that it's not same fagging but I'm phone posting and can't do it. Besides the burden of proof is on you to prove it same thing not me to prove it isn't.
>>98507130I think charisma should only be used as a stat to cast with if the true source of the magic is another power who isn't a god. Like if your elemental magic was a matter of negotiating with spirit elementals then of course you would need charisma as the base stat for those abilities. If you're borrowing the power of an eldritch being then it needs to agree to the terms. It makes less sense for gods though because someone following a god is more subservient and will take what they're given. They're inherently submissive to the power. It really makes no sense for sorcerers. That one feels like it's done because they couldn't think what else to use.
>>98514619>It really makes no sense for sorcerers. That one feels like it's done because they couldn't think what else to use.Sorcerers ended up with Charisma as their casting stat in 3.X because Charisma had been memed into a dump stat during 2e and they wanted to make it useful for PCs after stripping out all the "leadership" stuff previously built into the stat. This was then used to justify it as a non-dump stat for monsters as a large number of monster special abilities were then tied to Cha instead on Int to avoid having everything magical have crazy high Int scores due to DC math.
>>98515186Thanks for clearing that up. I started playing D&D in early 3.5 so I had not heard of that. How did TSR or WotC know what people where doing in the game before the internet though?
>>98514603Don't bother, retard, you're not fooling anyone
>>98515786>How did TSR or WotC know what people where doing in the game before the internet though?They used to host a lot of tournaments of volunteer DMs running premade modules for registered players who would pay an entrance fee. They would collect data from these events and use it to design new books and sub-editions. Also, letters. Lots of fan mail.
>>98514619Why should gods be the exception?
>>98507130Since I don't have any mechanics in my game that would make use of charisma, I don't include it in my games.I make my games how I want, and don't dictate how others make, play, or run theirs.
>>98515786As >>98515864 said, gaming cons (such as Gencon), RPGA organized play campaigns, letters sent into Dragon magazine, Usenet forums, and even surveys all provided information to TSR and WotC before the Internet became widespread.
>>98515186that tracks. Sorcerers feel like the dump class too. It's practically just "easy mode wizard with hand holding" mechanically. >>98515956because supposedly they are serving the god. If you're negotiating with a god for the power then sure, that makes sense that the stat your ability to negotiate is tied to is important, but if you're serving the god it doesn't make sense. Unless we're saying Charisma determines your level of faith or belief.A real life preacher needs charisma, but a magical fantasy cleric isn't about preaching, they're the hands of the god not the mouth, or they're representing the god, or in some way acting on the world in a way that pleases or benefits the god. Charisma just doesn't make sense there.The most common kinds of warlocks have the same thing going on, it's usually "oh no I made a deal with an entity and now I'm their bitch" And you get characters who are reluctant to have the power. But that's lazy players probably. If the stat used is Charisma then it should always be "I negotiated for this power and I don't have it unwillingly." It's a whole other kind of relationship and potentially they need to keep pleasing the entity to get more power or keep what they have.
>>98509705It's very simple: You're a disingenuous faggot who's misconstruing the point.The actual point is>In order to play a charismatic character, you must have basic social skills or knowledge about how to be charismatic.Nobody cares if your stats give you a +85 to Persuasion rolls. If you try to tell the King he should make you his heir, you're getting your head chopped off. If you try to tell the guard that you didn't steal that sword when he watched you do it, you're getting your head chopped off.This applies to most aspects of a character, btw. If the fighter tried to tell me his cheap iron sword should just cut through the bars of a dungeon cell, I'm going to tell him it breaks instead. If the rogue tries to sneak attack the guard by walking directly at him, he's going to be spotted. You are not being asked for expertise, just a level of proficiency above "Totally Incompetent".
>>98508124That may be the fault of him using the diplomacy skill rather than the bluff skill. The bluff skill has some modifiers based on what exactly you are trying to get someone to believe, which can be GM-judged reasonably (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm), while the diplomacy skill is purely about altering hostility/obedience. He shouldn't have been using the diplomacy skill unless he was trying to alter someone's hostility/obedience to him, anything which has to do with facts or arguments would likely use bluff.
>>98508344NTA but your strawman is actually a correct indictment of other D&D-like games which just treat combat as a pass/fail test rather than an event which occurs in the world and is modified by circumstances beyond how good at fighting your character is. 3.5 mitigates this by including a bunch of modifiers for your accuracy based on locations and other circumstances, but this is insufficient and also significantly limited by the use of a d20 additive system rather than a d100 system with both linear modifiers and nested probabilities (3.5 at least has concealment and incorporeality), and my ideal combat system would require every attack to be a called shot, although even if the attack hits, it might not necessarily hit the targeted location if the location is really small (essentially, to-hit rolls would be a 2d matrix with rows for where you aimed, columns for the die roll, and entries for where you actually hit, some of which would be empty, and which would also have rock-paper-scissors elements like Bunnies & Burrows, Arduin's brawl system, or OD&D's psionic combat system).And don't recommend GURPS like a reddit faggot, GURPS isn't actually exclusively simulationist, it is just a really detailed 3d6 narrative system which allows you to run a game in any crossover of genres, including genres that might incidentally require more detail in some areas. GURPS is the rule of cool/rule of genre savviness as a game. I think it is possible that claims of GURPS being simulationist are deliberately used to dismiss any suggestions of increased simulationism in games that actually have an implied setting and genre, even if most of the suggestions actually existed in prior editions of D&D or spinoffs of them.
>>98514565>>98514584>>98515861Embarrassing
>>98507130Charisma should not exist in any ROLEPLAYING gameThe entire game is talking with NPCs, being able to actually talk with them shouldn't be locked behind a stat or a skill or anything unless the system is flexible enough that John Fightman, Sneaky McDicks and Casterio the Caster all have ways of convincing people
