I like the Warhammer 40k setting. I do not like the Warhammer 40k rules.What are some alternative games with easy usage of Warhammer 40k models?Bonus points if opinions are backed up with experience having played each system.
I'll start with naming a few I've found from archive searches:OnePageRulesXenos RampantNo Limits WargameStarBreachRenegades Wargame (Kill Team alternative)I would greatly appreciate the opinions of those who have played the above mentioned games able to comment on whether they are good or bad.
>>98555663Onepage is fun and extremely easy to set up but very, very simple and you'll probably be totally spent with it fast. They seem to be trying to fix this by increasing unit complexity and adding more synergy and special rules. Big debate if you think that's a good move or not.Xenos rampant has some really neat concepts but isn't as flexible as it sounds at first, and has a lot of residue left over from it being a fantasy rank and flank being converted into a scifi game. You'll either hate it or love it based on a. it can realistically only support very small armies due to activation and b. how you feel about passing your turn because you failed activation.
>>98555662This is the only decent way to play main 40k.One page rules is trash plagued with the same disgusting issues of new hammer.
>>98555756>>98556058Is one page rules a love it or hate it game like Xenos rampant supposedly is?What are some alternatives to those games then?I’m taking the word of /awg/ with a grain of salt in that official warhammer best games were mediocre compared to the average alternative wargame.I should have said no previous 40k rules. Sorry.
>>98556069Are you blind? 40k 4th edition + imperial armour books.
>>98555662Deadzone and firefight
>>98556058The Demonhunters cover will always be one of my favourite pieces of 40k art.I fucking hate Games Workshop never released the Inquisitor on the cover in a 1:1 version. The guy who made a 3d print version never released it because he was whining over some shit.
>>98555662One Page Rules
>>98555662Just play 3rd/4th4th edition rulebook with 3rd edition army rules.Maybe some 5th armies like Dark Eldar and perhaps the insane bravery rule for Moral just to have a chance to regroup on a double 1 if your 50 blob squad lost 1 to many models and now is eternally running.
>>98555662Truth be told I've been thinking of homebrewing some "all-in-one" Codices based around the late 3rd to early 4th style. Take OPR's "no models left behind" ethos & apply it to a system with some bite in it
>>98559682Very reasonable take.3rd/4th with a splash of 5th is peak.
>>98559954Do not add the running rule from 5th though.The original 6'x4' table is already small enough for the game and adding the random +D6" movement does not add anything.If you want more movement use transport and fast attack units that have the running rule for the most part.
>>98559954What kind of splashes of 5th?
>>98560061Insane braver is one along with the damage table for vehicles (mostly a preference thing).Tank shock mechanic is fun though. Specially when using dumb shit like AV9 Trucks with GSC and getting Death or Glory against a guardsmen with a lasgun
>>98560045There's various pros and cons.One of the biggest cons to watch out for, is that 3rd and 4th edition armies aren't really balanced around running being a core rule.>>98560061Whichever ones you want!If you and your friends really like Run, then do it. Don't let us stop you.
>>98560110Running was such an odd thing rules wise.All the units that could run before the change their only benefit with 5th was being allowed to charge after running... Something most Fleet of Foot already could do. You know because you needed it close the distance against the shooting and slower units the same units that now can run away as fast as you...
>>98556058>>98559954Are 4th/5th really that good even by alleged /awg/ standards that allege they are “mediocre” at best?I’d rather look at non-gw games for reusing warhammer 40k models instead if it is true.
>>98560153Yeah, running buffed the movement speed of everyone, which was kind of an incidental nerf to fleet units.>>98560175Most people like 3rd and 4th, with splashes of 5th.Basically just your own personal homebrew.
>>98555662Trench crusade. The game is fun if you like quick skirmish games.
>>98560263I’m gonna assume you aren’t trolling or making bait.I don’t want to touch trench crusade because it is broken promises and culture war grift the game.It just feels wrong to give it attention in any way after all the broken promises.
>>98560175Its a functional game. The thing is a bunch of /awg/ sci fi games are trying to recreate a version of 3rd-5th rules. Usually focusing in one aspect of those editions like gear options or the flexibility or the rules. Doing it very well so they stand out compared to 3rd-5th, but those said rules usually fail at the complete experience.
>>98560367>awg/ sci fi games are trying to recreate a version of 3rd-5th rules. Usually focusing in one aspect of those editions like gear options or the flexibility or the rules. I was expecting something like this.Genuinely asking here. Can you pull up examples from bigger /awg/ sci-fi games doing this?
Have some 40k with the serial numbers filled off and the goyslop (at least partially) removedThe Long War:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VBC2H49xydk8lPxgAjTY9sFtNmHQefp4AA-40k(Alternative Activation):https://mega.nz/folder/EqRzATpY#veXSXgaGG23c462K4ppDJg
>>98560432Most Sci fi games that I know off that try to do the platoon shit that 40k does usually just says fuck it and go into smaller scale like for example Drop zone commander. (Not 40k perse but their own setting)Xenos Rampant is not exactly trying to be 40k, but you can really see the influence and trying to attract the market Others are not exactly 40k but Necromunda This is not a Test is basically Necromunda but in the wasteland apocalypse.
>>98555662Boarding Actions is the optimal way to play 40k
>>98560574I’m not sure if /awg/ is gonna give me genuine answers if I ask for this sort of thing of proof that many sci-fi alternatives took significant inspiration from the 4th/5th 40k rules because they were that good. But specific examples would be greatly appreciated.I will also freely admit that I am skeptical of the claims of 4th and 5th really being as good as people say because of nostalgia fog. Some of my stuff that I enjoyed as a kid aren’t as good as I remembered and some are just terrible.But if I am wrong and 4th and 5th really are genuinely good on merit then is there a “recast” but instead republishing of the old books by chance?
>>98560175>4th/5thWhy are you lumping these together? 5th sucked, it was the beginning of 40k enshittification.3rd/4th are the golden era.
>>98560649Sorry anon. My bad.I’d still like to see stuff like what I asked for at >>98560643 but without the 5th part.I think it was the “splash of 5th” that made me lump in 5th.Sorry.
>>98560643Is not 4th and 5th but 3rd and 4th3rd/4th produced things like Bolt Action. BA is closer to 3rd/4th than it is 6th (edition when BA was released)You can always get the 3rd/4th books rather easily and Newrecruit has the entirety of 3rd armies too. Beside meme things like dinosaurs and plants. Even has the army rules for the clowns.The other issue with /awg/ giving you a direct response is that like I said most other sci fi things focus on their own thing. Xenostactics for example has little to do with the 3rd/4th rules but it takes a lot from the idea that positioning matters and you can easily recreate things from 40k there. 40k is such a big thing that everyone that does not do their own setting at least opens the possibility for 40k shit in their games.
>>98560681It was mainly good because:A) The core rules were simple compared to earlier and later editions, but flavorful unlike the modern 10th OVERsimplified tripe. You didn't need the weapons on every units datasheet, a boltgun was a boltgun, a flamer was a flamer, a plasma gun was a plasma gun, etc. But where the detail actually was was in things like armour facings for vehicles so flanking and positioning mattered, morale and leadership rules that actually did something, and so forth.B) Customization. Customization. Customization. It reigned supreme in this era. You have no idea what you are missing.Imperial Armour, Index Astartes, Chapter Approved, Armoury pages that looked like this, Build-a-Bug Tyranid Biomorphs that went on for a whole page, Regimental Doctrines for Imperial Guard, Chapter Traits, rules for the different Craftworlds, I can't even begin to tell you how much content.
>>98560803Alright then anon.I’d greatly appreciate the pdfs for all of them. And since forgeworld’s imperial armour was part of that era can you hopefully dump all the forgeworld books too?Even the Horus heresy books in a “might as well” please.Are the scans good enough that I can say pay a Chinese print on demand company to print the codexes in softcover format? Or is this already being done?I’m surprised gw doesn’t do made to order for older codexes. Unless the rogue trader book counted.
>>98560572What's the pitch for these compared to playing an older ruleset? (Alternate activation, obviously, for the one.)
>>98561133AA-40k is mostly just 4e with Alternate Activation, it currently lacks support for Admech, Inquisition & Custodes (But it supports lost&the damned) but the creator said he is currently working on Inquisition, the customization in the codexes is great I mostly play nidders and sure maybe the codex doesn't have "build a bug" but the options provided are still enough to have essentially the same thing, there are a few blasts from the past for example Carnifexes and Terminators have a 3+ on 2D6 armour saves. Also the games of AA 40k are fast. The Long War is a bit like if the game stayed in 7th core rule wise with every single new addition added on top but in a good way, for example you can play World Eaters and have all the new units and not be cucked out of the rest of the CSM army list, there is also a bit of HH 2.0 mixed in for things like dreadnoughts, I haven't played the long war in a while but it was fun (And things may have changed a bit), it also supports many obscure units from early editions
>>98561009I would share my links, but every time I've share it here it gets taken down.That said there is a torrent with everything from RT to 7th, English and Spanish.Regarding scan quality they are readable, but printing them or having them in your phone is the easiest thing to do.Also back then every codex came with a page like this.So you really only need your list, maybe a random special rule and the basic rulebook to play.If a unit had a lasgun it was the standard lasgun. You would not find lasgun catachan or lasgun krieg. It was just a fucking lasgun.Even for character it was generic weapons. A power sword was the same for a Marine, Guard or Eldar
>>98555663Renegade Scout 2e is a very great alternative to 40k 1e/2e. It's a refinement of both systems combined, and there aren't any actual problems I've had with it so far.https://www.wargamevault.com/en/product/249657/renegade-scout-bleeding-edge-retro-gaming
>>98560572Wait AA is not the same thing as https://alternate40krules.com/rulebooks/
>>98561200Thanks for the rundown anon. I'll have to check these out. I'm not too interested in the new stuff, so AA-40K may be more up my alley. Fast games are a plus too.
>>98560175Compared to other games, 4th is ok. Compared to any other 40k edition 4th is by far the best. 5th is trash. It has game braking issues like wound allocation, sprint, going to ground and the worst codex balance imaginable.
>>985601754th is fun but only grogs and oldheads will want to play it. OPR is good if you want to get normies to push models with you or you want to field all your glup shitto minis. This thread has old fucks who think anything written after 2003 is somehow bad though.
>>98562301Another one to check out is pepsihammer: its a best of from 3rd to 6th. If you dont want alternating activations and just want to play warhammer like you remembered it but without all the rough spots, give it a try. Its also compatible (mostly like 98%) with any exiting midhammer codex.https://mega.nz/folder/2YdghLzL#w0KOILlS1lrM1AeE4jcG-Q
>>98560263The owners of this game said i'm not allowed to play.
>>98561429It's a different system made by one of the Anons from here
>>98562963>anything written after 2003 is somehow bad though.By GW? Yes more like 2007 but yes, quite literally.
>>98562963I would not say all, but around 5th you can see the huge deep in quality.There are nice things here and there like the shadow war Armageddon thing. A 1.5 edition fixing the meme that was melee would be nice.
>>98564161It definitely started in 4th edition after that editions Tau codex came out. You can see a big shift in design philosophy for the Eldar codex and it's been downhill ever since.
>>98564271This, 4th tau, marines and tyranid codex books are great and balanced with 3rd ed books. Orks, eldar, dark angels, demons and chaos have the new split format and are hit or miss. The change in direction is very noticeable with books and magazines. White dwarf went full corpo with 5th.
>>98561396Thanks!>WargamevaultThis is DrivethruRPG's sister site which means it can do print on demand. Is the quality consistently good as I've seen DTRPG print on demand supposedly being good?
>>98563319Okay, so pirate the books and play it out of spite. You're not so spineless that you'll do what the libs tell you and let them win, are you?
>>98564899Nta but it is better in this context to just let it be and not give it attention.It is a grift but it works in that it keeps the toxic positivity pastel hairs away from the other games and even dnd too somehow where I am.
>>98560263>mediaeval english coat of arms>modern welsh flagA bit anachronistic.>literally hell is invading>but christians bad too>also muslims are greatA bit too modern European cuckold for my taste.I tried playing a game or two as trench pilgrims but it just wasn't that fun really. I didn't feel like my soldiers were capable of anything, and the leader of my army being a black woman in the rule book was kind of ho-hum, and the artist jerking off over blood soaked naked nuns wasn't great either. He isn't skilled enough for me to call his naked woman artistic and not amateur porn.
>>98565891Frankly even without the bollocks, the game just comes off as a cringe fetish. Like the game itself exists only to justify the setting which exists only to justify the artist's disturbing tastes in existential horror and gore porn.40k at least uses grim dark as a stage for heroism and noble sacrifice.
>>98564271I'm convinced it was the loss of Andy Chambers who left GW right at the start of 4th, he had probably had a hand in the development of those early 4th codexes behind the scenes even though they came out months/years after he was gone, once that design shift happened was the point where completely new guys had to take over. It wasn't ENTIRELY the fault of the new designers being bad, either, although that was a factor, but also that GW was getting more and more corporate and management was forcing bad decisions (which almost certainly played a part in why Andy left to begin with).
>>98565930>40k at least uses grim dark as a stage for heroism and noble sacrifice.That and 40k has a sense of dark humour about itself, there's a tiny bit of Monty Python in its DNA, whereas Trench Crusade is just 100% grimly serious and depressing all the fucking time.
>>98564271The eldar codex isn’t really effected by the design stuff that I attribute to being more 5th Ed (loads of special characters with army bending rules locked behind them, and a general focus of flavor and unique rules over balance). But it does feature their more-seen-as 5th Ed formatting of unit section separate from army building section. But that’s just typography really and doesn’t affect the game so much. All in all the 4th ed eldar book is a good one, it’s very similar to the 3rd ed book and includes or mirrors most of the stuff that was in the craft words supplement. But it also misses out on the armour section with all the cool fluff that say the dark eldar codex has. It was certainly the prototype dex for their new format. I would always recommend the 4th ed eldar over 3rd ed eldar.
>>98566976Yep eldar are on the good side. Dark angels and chaos are on the bad side of 4th.Not sure about orks and deamons.
>>98567299Imo Chaos are only on the bad side because of how good the dex before it was. Its honestly more in-line with the bland-ness of the rest of the 3rd ed books, but the 3.5 chaos book was a fucking masterpiece. The 4th ed book is also the one that actually adds what most people think of when they hear beserkers, pleague marines, thousand sons, and noise marines. In the 3rd ed book those things were actually equivalent to simply having the mark of their associated god. I like the distinction personally, and I would advocate for mixing that part back in for anyone who wants to use the 3.5 dex. But the rest of the dex is just sad by comparison.Orks are in the same boat as eldar imo, but I know thats more conflicted. I think its got loads of fun stuff in it, and the 3rd ed ork dex really shows its age, but it had some interesting rules like mobbing up that the newer one omitted and that irritated a lot of people. I dont know anything about the dark angels book, nor daemons.
I've been getting into Custom40k lately. It's based on middlehammer but the idea is that you can use any 40k model from 3rd or 4th onward. Also it uses alternating activation (which I like) and a secret orders system (which I'm just ignoring).https://custom40k-wiki.vercel.app/https://custom40k-builder.vercel.app/
>>98567409The dark amgels one is the 4th edition marine codex but nerfed, unflexible and with 5th esition trash in it.
>>98555662There is also the Warhammer 40,000 2nd Edition Battle Bible, which I actually don't know shit about, because I don't play 40k but might interest you OP.I'd maybe recommend Clash on the Fringe too.
>>98555662>games with easy usage of Warhammer 40k models>sell 40k crap>buy new game>bonus point for /hwg/
>>98570330>Get into games that have a negative player count
>>98555663>>98555756>how you feel about passing your turn because you failed activation.I have recently bought the book for xenos. Keep in mind many units have a "free" action (don't need to roll because it auto succeds) on their core concept statistic. Light mobile infantry and transports have movement as a free activation, elite infantry have fight and shoot actions as free, support and heavy infantry have shoot as free. So you can greatly mitigate "lose turn lol" risk by activating those first. And didn't Battlefleet Gothic have the failed activation = lose turn mechanic? Didn't stop that game from being a grog darling. Also many units have firefight (even if you wiff your turn a unit with this rule can still fire back if an opponent shoots the unit, this is done before strength loss applies for you. Failing to activate this rule does not wiff your net activation phase). There are also wild charges, so if you want a bunch of nids or death company to retard run at your opponent consistently without riskng an activation that is an option. And rallying to recover from status effects is not an ordered activation, so you will not be perma stunned with get shot>try to recover from suppression>get shot. Your opponent will also wiff occasionly, so by combining all of the above the activation rules will not be as consistently horrifying as you might immagine. Lastly many of the complaints against modern 40k is that everything is too lethal and that rerolls allow for a lot of consistency. And if too much consistency brings us to modern 40k, and if this thread is about getting away from that then maybe accepting some inconsistency can make the science fantasy really shine.
>>98560263Fuck off troll
>>98555756>Onepage is fun and extremely easy to set up but very, very simpleIt's as simple or as complex as you want it to be. If you pay the $5 to get the full rules and not just the free core rules, they have all kinds of mechanics in there that you can pick and choose to add to your game. So in reality, OPR is more of a "create your own wargame" modular ruleset that is as simple or complex as you personally want it to be.
>>98571610>If you pay the $5Fuck off shill
>>98571628>Stating the price of something means you're shilling for itYou GW glazers are bizarre.
>>98571628that poster is not shilling. tons of people don't realize the free rules are just the essentials of play. OPR has rules to make the game as complex as you wish.
>>98571783NTA, I think making OPR more complex kinda defeats the point, It's strong point is that it's simple and a relatively big battle can take less than an hour, If you want something more complex there are much better (most often free) systems for that
>>98571674You're a fucking retard, no one glazed GW, this entire thread is about ways to play 40k that aren't modern GW. OPR is still dogshit and the worst alternative.
>>98571872>OPR is still dogshit and the worst alternative.OPR and WH40K editions are the only games I am aware with full list / army building functionalities. Most indie wargames either get rid of list building for simpler rules or come out of the box with hardcoded units you can't change.
>>98571801>If you want something more complex there are much better (most often free) systems for thatsuch as?
>>98572589https://mega.nz/folder/zSYW0I4a#vXh8-UPi_tWXpJES_-p4zg/folder/uLAQRQaY
>>98571940Void Admiral has multiple list builder and I know just two other people that play it and both of them are because I pest them till they played.Xenos Rampant has it in newrecruit.Xenotactics is literally a math formula so you can recreate in a spreadsheet if you want.
Nice vomit inducing furfaggot game you got here, OPR shills
>>98555662check out https://alt40k.com/
>>98571610>If you pay the $5 to get the full rules and not just the free core rulesThey're just bolted on top of the incredibly simple statlines and rules of the basic game. Stuff like the vehicle rules totally fucking suck because there's nothing to attach them to, you need to bake these things into the design from the start.
>>98571940>OPR and WH40K editions are the only games I am aware with full list / army building functionalitiesSo you've basically never played any fucking games in your entire life?
>>98574294How to tell if an artist has a foo- paw fetish...
>>98572635>void admiralIs this one good as an alt to battlefleet gothic where renegades is the alt to kill team in the second post?Looks promising.
>Searching for alternative games to WarhammerUhhh idk man I would say you could try scrolling forums and rotting your fucking life away and wasting all your time instead of playing any games at all but it seems like you're doing a good job with that already
>>9855566240k rules could be fixed with one easy change: transitioning to a d12 or a d20 dice system.
>>98572634lmao, okI get it, but that isn't really a proper response, is it?Especially with OPR being in there as well
>>98571404I've played the game quite a bit, I think there could be a few extra options for weapon upgrades and more detailed vehicle rules. Once read a blog post by a guy who bolted on the vehicle damage rules from bolt action to Xenos Rampant for his wargaming of the first Chechen war. Apparently it worked quite well.
>>98575306There is nothing wrong with searching to find games to keep the warhammer models from just collecting dust.
>>98560263>What if we copied 40k, but sucked the fun parts out of itI sleep
>>98575317Yeah, until you ask players to buy 100 of them and it still wouldn't stop the game being slow and cumbersome.
>>98555662There is ProHammer Classic, a recompilation of the "best parts" from 3rd to 7th edition but based on 4th edition, to be used with any codex from that time.
>>98575060Void Admiral is an inbetween of the OPR and Battlefleet gothic.Closer to OPR, but the ships feels like ships unlike warfleets that you could replace the ships with goblins and non would know you are playing a space ship game.Biggest selling point for me is that ships come in 4 forms and faction special rules and weapon configuration make the difference between each other.Like robots are better, but you more expensive while nobles have this funny butt gun, meanwhile liberationist have hero ships with random extra upgrades, while the bug people can spam weak escort ships.But everyone has a big ship, medium ship, small ship and squadron ships
>>98556058>Necrons before they were stupid space pharoahsI miss them
>>98576963I do not dislike the idea of the talking negrones.My issue is that they use the space pharoahs and do nothing with the theme. Also the reason why they went to sleep is dumb now.>Oh no eldar and ork are too powerful and we are weaken after clapping old ones and ctan cheeks>best we go to sleep and be totally undefended against eldar and ork that are still coping and seething>some how it worked? Da fuq?
>>98577005I fundamentally disagree with the change.Silent lads who simply hate the living and are basically slaves to the C'tan is cooler than secret space pharaohs to me.
>>98577077>>98577005>>98576963Most of the current 40k players think that the infinite and the divine is the best 40k book ever written.
>>98578027Is it actually good?Will I enjoy it if I enjoyed 4th edition Necron lore?
>>98578053I thought it was a fun little novel. Didn't like the obvious product placement bits, but I think it emphasized the ridiculous aspects of the setting quite well. 40k as a comedy.However, if you like the pre-Ward necrons you won't like the infinite and the divine.
>>98564578It's the same Print On Demand service. Quality is good for both soft and hardback. Worst part is that can take 6-8 weeks.
>>98578276>hardbackNow I am interested bigly.That 6 to 8 week thing is mostly hardback right?
>>98560353>>98563319>>98565891>>98571422>>98575421I literally have no idea what everyone is talking about. I don't obsessively go online all day and see what people are saying and copy their opinions about things I have no experience in. I play trench crusade with my friends and we're having a good time. Maybe you should try playing games instead of making up fake reasons to not play them.
>>98560353What broken promises? They made some rules that you can use for free and play the game. That's what they've done and set out to do. All the other dumb shit is just extra stuff that you can ignore if you just don't go to tranny websites, but I guess that means you can't talk to your girl(boy)friend online so I understand.>>98563319Have you tired not being a bitch>>98565930Yea because 40k never had or has any cringe fetish stuff. Trench crusade was the first thing to exist for artist to air out their weird shit.>>98575421Man who's only seen boss baby. "Man I'm getting a lot of boss baby vibes from this."
>>98578053Its nucrone trash
>>98578649So you dont know?
>>98578608>>98578649It is never a good look to retaliate against valid criticism through denial/downplay tactics or projection coded insults.Anyways the broken promises/cherry on top controversies have been documented.The ones who documented just get shouted down as being chud boogeymen. Another form of downplaying.I don't want to write a book have this:https://web.archive.org/web/20260626020847/https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Trench_Crusade#Controversies
>>98555662have you tried.....OLDER EDITIONS?
>>98556058The peak of 40k. Also when I first got into it. Yes it's a coincidence and it was objectively better then.
>>98568908This. Been having a blast and it’s consistently being updated. Tho I wish more stuff from 30k was in. Might start doing so myself
>>98579364I think you sent the wrong link. I'd assume there would be a list of controversies of note but could not find anything but extremely small issues that would not really effect enjoying the game.If you can provide me with a link with a list of valid controversies it would be much appreciated. Thanks.
>>98580143>denial+downplay again>with a splash of "pretending" to be dumbIf you aren't a troll trying to make Trench Crusade defenders look bad, I suggest you stop. You aren't as smart as you think you are. You're 4Dchess or whatever you wanna call it isn't slick. If you are a troll and this is a larp then you need a better hobby man.
>>98580179I'm not playing 4Dchess or trying to be smart. I wanted an explanation and all I got was a vague list of minor incidents. Now to you they may be major and if that's the case then it's simply a matter us having different opinions and there's not much that can be done with that.
>>98580143>extremely small>scamming peopleAre you indian or something?
>>98555756Are you sure you weren't using the simple rules?
>>98582267Fuck off retard no one wants to pay the 5 dollars microtransaction for your furfag slop game.
As someone who is not a belligerent in the Trench Crusade consumer wars, I can give a brief overview. You won't find a hard and fast list because its mostly major vibe shifts.#1 Certain people get extra upset about pre-orders / crowd funding not going smooth despite that kinda coming with the terrority. There's did not go smooth, plenty of QA issues and empty promises.#2 They boned over home printers and the cottage printers by switching from a STL based model economy to our plastics only like Games Workshop. They also delayed and then finally came out with a pretty shit community license. Trench Crusade is now more like Games Workshop then a new school more permissive indie game.#3 The lore of the game is based on real religion which is going to cause drama even if it went perfect. Now it seems there are certain protected classes and groups they aren't going to lore as hard into.#4 The rainbow army that got D&D and Magic the Gathering changed seems to have some attachment to Trench Crusade, so now there is culture war over those sorts of issues.#5 It seems to just be another skirmish wargame and there is already 100's of skirmish games out there, so some people bored of it.
Does anyone have a good skirmish game that lets you use your Space Marines? Solo would be preferable but not essential. I went with Rogue Hammer for my platoon scale game, but the only skirmish game I could be pointed towards was OPR.I'm specifically looking for that "Space Marine Feel" that comes with being powerful, hard to kill and often outnumbered.
>>98583849Just play Kill Team
>>98583862I'll be playing it next year with my brother, and that does not have any of the feel that I'm looking for, it's too balanced, too competitive, too geared towards meta chasing.I want something FUN
>>98583868There's an older edition of Kill Team with a ton of content from 2018-2021 you can try that allows far more customization
>>98583881I've never played that version to be perfectly honest. Can I get a quick run down of it? Only if you have the time to spare of course.
>>98583849Grimdark Future Star QuestSpace WeirdosFive Parsecs From HomeXenos Rampant You could also play the WH40K boardgames.
>>98584015>Grimdark Future Star QuestThis is on my list of recommendations, I wish it wasn't so reliant on the games site, but that's a small niggle.>Space WeirdosNever been much of a fan of the Weirdos games, but I've heard that the Weird Millennium fan expansion improves Space Weirdos quite a lot.>Five Parsecs From HomeI don't really see how I can use Space Marines and Co in Five Parsecs seeing as how it uses Ivan's Unified Space setting, which I'm not a fan of. But if you know something I don't, by all means please share.>Xenos RampantI don't like that you have to roll to activate, and the rules are, imo, extremely bland. Not much fun at all.>You could also play the WH40K boardgames.Like Space Hulk? I don't find that those games are well suited to solo play or power fantasy as they tend to be internally balanced. But again, if you know something I don't, I'm all ears.
>>98584182you seem to be pretty knowledgeable, I was just giving some general ideas so probably won't be of too much help to you. I am not really aware of anything that is exactly what you are looking for out of the box. I just make my own campaigns and scenarios. Space Marine Adventures and Onslaught games have you fight hordes of enemies against your squad but they are lite, introductory games so probably not what you are looking for.
>>98584250I appreciate your input anyway anon, thanks for the recommendations.
>>98584182>>98583849Are you familiar with Space Marine Operations? It's a variant game from White Dwarf that's meant emulate space marine 2, you have a team of 3 marines with different classes doing objectives in the face of waves of tyranids. The rules pdfs were put up for free on warcom in the WD downloads.
>>98567409Guard got blandified too, since they lost the ability to customize regiments in the 4th/5th dex. they couldn't figure out how to balance that shit so they just broke it and made every regiment into steel legion.
>>98562963there's no hard line, but by about the mid-00s they'd managed out or fired just about anyone with any kind of creativity or vision. that's what the grogs are referring to. there were a few holdouts in specialist games and FW that avoided the axe for a few years after, but from about 2005 everything for the mainline games is written by marketing execs and corporate committee. They're glorified advertising pamphlets masquerading as game rules and it shows.
>>98555662>I like the Warhammer 40k setting. I do not like the Warhammer 40k rules.just check older editions rules
>>98586727Eh, if it were not for the egregiously OP stuff in the 5th Ed guard codex, I would use that over 3.5 because I think the order system is really cool. You can “sort of” mimic the regimental stuff with just options alone, I think it’s like 70%. I think Catalan is kinda out if I remember right, but holy shit stuff in that book is OP as hell. And tank squadrons were a huge fucking mistake.
>>98587506There are many good home brews at this point too.If you want alternating activations, try AA40k or custom40k, and if you don’t then try pepsihammer or prohammer. At this point I can never recommend actually playing stock oldhammer, any of these is going to give a better experience.
>>98555662Use the space marines and nids as proxies for the starcraft game.
>>98586641I was not aware, I'll go have a look!
>>98583849Xenoforce is specifically what you want.
>>98588298Well now, that sounds like it's precisely what I'm looking for. Thanks for the suggestion anon
>>98588132>I think Catalan is kinda outOnly fair, 40k is no place for Spanish separatists.
>>985556627th ed herald of ruins, best way to play kill team to date.
>>98559954IMO peak hammer is 4th ed using 3 and 3.5e codexes.My spicy take as well, Using launch 7th ed rules and anything prior to Angels of Death suplement along with banning specific powers and or reworking them (IE Shit like invis) is really good war hammer as well.
Anyone got an alternating activation 40K that doesn't have units literally run off the table when they fail a morale check? That shit sucks.
>>98588600From a Big Rule Book perspective, why do you prefer the 7th ed ruleset to 6th ed? I think many of the changes, such as removal of focus fire for cover groups, and the new psychic phase rules were a big downgrade. The one element I remember standing out as an improvement was the FMC rules for changing flight modes and charging.
>>98588670>that doesn't have units literally run off the table when they fail a morale check?No, because that's kino, get some fucking taste. So much better than modern streamlined "battleshock" slop.
>>98588707>get some fucking taste>OH NO, MY POST HUMAN GENETIC ABERATION SUPER SOLDIERS ARE UNDER FIRE!>SQUAD BROKEN>RUN FOR THE HILLS>SAVE YOURSELF>EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF>that's kinoYou need help.
>>98588719Space Marines have always had special rules to prevent that newfag. And They Shall Know No Fear. They don't run off the table in almost any edition of 40k ever.
>>98588721>Missing the point this hardTruly a galaxy brain
>>98588727That doesn't miss the point at all you fucking moron.>I don't want my super soldier marines to run off the field like imperial guard mooks>okay, they don't>NOOOO THATS NOT THE POINTLike what the fuck are you even saying retard?
>>98588735Brain so smooth, no wrinkles
>>98588743>I have no argument after getting BTFO so now I will just pretend you are dumb while I act intentionally obtuseThanks for playing dipshit
>>98588670Yes anon, all of them do. It’s called “hey friends let’s play this homebrew alternating activation game but without the fleeing part cause I don’t like it”. Why do people have so little desire for agency these days?
>>98588750Actually what happened was that was the OPR creator, he made >>98588670 post as a very specific question to set himself up for a samefag shill post where he could go "OOH MY GAME DOESN'T HAVE THAT" and you completely ruined his plan by pointing out that not having real morale rules with running away is lame and gay actually. That's why he seethed so much in the replies and had no proper response when you pointed out space marines in particular ignore that mechanic. Having interesting core rules and differing faction rules that interact with it in different ways is too much to fit on one page of trash.
>>98588788The thing I despise about OPR is that the rules themselves don’t work, they rely on the fact that players already know how to play 40k. They just don’t function by themselves.
>>98588696Its hard to explain i just liked the way 7th felt, it felt very customizable, you could make your dudes, and even your captain to a degree, i loved the relic system, it was just fun. It had a good amount of granulatity overall it was fine IMO.But im also one of the wild people that will argue that there was nothing wrong the with psyker phase either because when you applied logic the psyker phase made more sense in terms of flow of the game. because your options was>Have a psyker phase, do all my spell casting here and get it done and outta the way, while your oponant does nothing to stop it because they did not bring anything to stop it.vs>Do each little bit spread through out the entire turn, and have your opponent STILL not be able to do anything because they brought nothing to stop them.I never understood the argument against having the psyker phase.
>>98588920The argument against the psychic phase that I hold is that it provides no real benefit, and actually makes it more awkward and restrictive. Previously you just used the power when it most made sense, which is often when the player begins to think about it. But more so than anything else about it, I just hated the new casting system; it dramatically changed the odds and therefor messed with the established balance of psykers. Things like zoanthropes and warlocks became practically useless because the amount of "mana" didn't scale properly with your casters. All the other things you mentioned existed in both 6th and 7th ed, so I was just curious as to why you picked launch 7th over last day 6th. Last time I did a comparison I remember coming up deciding that 6th was just superior in almost every metric, but that was a long time ago.
>>98559954No.No 5th. Ever.
>>98589036I can see and respect the argument of things like psyker weapons being done in their respective turn like shooting or in melee, but things like buffing, debuffing ect ect, It just seemed to flow better in a single phase to do it. I just never understood people who would argue it was bad because your opponent had to sit there while you cast all your powers, like they dont already do that when we split it up into various part of other phases. I also liked it because it just got it done and over with. >>98589047Was it 5th or 4th that had the unkillable rhinos?
>>98589053>but things like buffing, debuffing ect I still think that for sake of keeping them contained to a single phase adds unessessary mental tax for little gain. Just using the power when it came time for you to want to use it made more sense to me. It eliminates the chance you got excited and started shooting stuff before casting your buff to melee units – just casting it in the melee phase is nice and clean.>bad because your opponent had to sit thereYeh thats a silly thing to complain about. >rhinosnta but 5th had vehicles slightly harder to kill on average. 4th had 1/6 chance to kill on glance and 3/6 on pen. 5th ed had no chance to kill on glance and 2/6 on pen (3/6 for ap1). I liked the the 6th ed vehicle damage chart the best.
>>98588902Yeah that's one of many insufferable things about it, it's so obviously a parasitic piece of crap made by just brainlessly stripping down 40k rules it doesn't even function by a strict reading without making assumptions to plug the gaps, just sloppy work all around.
>>98589047You're the anti-Run guy, aren't you?
>>98589091DESU i think HH 3.0 nailed vehicles rules right for the first time in a LONG fucking time. I would hoenstly look to hh3.0 for both vehicle and blast rules.
>>98589099He is.
>>98589122I don’t know hh3.0, can you tell me how it works?
>>98589140>Vehicle rulesSo they got rid of the vehicle damage chart no more of this "lol you one shot my vehicle" Overall they ahe more HP, a LR has....12 or 14 HP i cant remember off the top of my head. But weapons in HH now have damage profiles so a las canon is not doing just 1 HP a turn its doing 2 HP a turn, so you want to bring specifically anti vehcle weapons to the game. A rapier laser destoryer (Mobile Laser turret) can do 3 damage a shot, and gets i think 2 shots each, if it stands still. Pen does full damage, if you glance rather then doing damage you roll on a status, and your vehicle can either get a negative modifier for your next turn that you need to clear at theend of your turn (Or start if you have shit like a tech marine) so like it might only be able to fire snap shots, i might not be able to move or react things like taht.Vehicles also then went up in price to help with this. So now you actually need to bring anti vehicle weapons to deal with them which is good. >BlastRather then rolling to scatter, you roll to hit first, and if you miss, then you scatter. Most things only scatter 1d6 but you dont subtract your BS from the scatter anymore.
>>98589181Cool thanks anon. I dont know if I dont like the no more 1 shoting vehicles or not, having the chance was cool but also important for balance so vehicles couldn't be the all powerful bully. I really like how prohammer does it, regular damage chart, but he added these things to vehicles called structure points. Players can burn structure points to mitigate results like weapon destroyed or immobilized, but that leaves the vehicle more subject to getting exploded. Its very elegant. I also like pepsihammer's solution which is based around a regular damage chart and a subsystems failure chart for some cool degradation. Vehicles have hullpoints like 6th ed.
>>98589249The thing about it being a bully is it's not as bad, they also cut down on a lot of template AP3 and 2 weapons like the only large AP 3 template I can think of off the top of my head is the HE round on the felblade super heavy, so a 650 investment. Most vehicles with raw AP3 or AP2 are not templates. Vehicles also can get fucked in melee. But the system very much encourages you to being anti armor. It's def the best vehicles have ever felt in HH and by proxy Warhammer 40k 3-7th I have seen.
>>98588707I don't agree with his retardation but I think he has a point. I always like my 40K with a dash of "it's all or nothing" and I've never enjoyed seeing my units turn and run, irrespective of faction. Do you by any chance know an alt-activation version of the game where units don't run? I don't really mind battleshock that much.
>>98589135Shut the fuck up faggot>>98589099No, I'm the anti Flying circus, anti wound allocation bullshit, anti allies (I know that's more 6th I don't care) anti Ward bullshit,
>Anonymous namefaggingYou fucking losers.
>>985893525th wound allocation is probably the easiest to spot sour spot but but also the easiest to fix with a houserule. For normal people it basically always just took one game for people to all go "oh yeh thats clearly not thought out lets fix it". 4th eds is ok, but a patched 5th ed is better. 4th ed also didnt have any rules at all for mixed cover saves, while 5th did, but 6th did it best.>>98589281Without having tried it, my gut reaction is that I dont like the notion that the marine with the meltagun cant actually kill the enemy tank no matter how lucky he is. But maybe my tune would change once I give it a shot. The way pepsihammer (the homebrew I play with my friends) does it is that the highest result on the damage chart is called "on fire", and if you roll it you roll up another pen at -1 on the chart. So if you get really lucky 4+ 5+ 6+ with a meltagun you *can* oneshot a regular 4hp tank, but its pretty rare.Ap2 and ap3 pieplates or bullet spam really were the bane of 6th and 7th ed more than their core rules.
>>98582712>can't read>can't get digital stuff freelyA retard is you
>>98583868>>98583908can we go back to telling zoomers to lurk more
>>98589482>can't get digital stuff freelyNta but this is me. I get the gatekeeping. I do want to torrent and pirate things.But fear of virus infecting my Linux and incompetence are why I don’t find pdfs or stls.I think I’m retarded and need to learn how to work around such defects.
>>98589482>OPR shill seething at a day old post
>>98589489Homie I'm 36
>>98589412So your random melta guy cant 1 shot a LR, that much is correct, but he can one shot a Rhino. Because Rhinos are still, i think 5 HP, and predators i think are 6 and a standard melta gun is 3 damage flat, and has the melta rule which in HH doubles the damage, and gives armor baneArmorbane is a glance = a pen. So even a weapon like a comon melta can if you are lucky 1 shot light vehicles but you are not gonna be one shotting a LR with it, that said if you run up on a LR with like 5 meltas yeah.
>>98589777HP on vehicles is retarded unless applied to apocalipse.
>>98589412>5th wound allocation. And then you have to fix:Terrible codex balanceRunning making transport irrelevant, fleet of foot too weak and expensive, assault troops too strong. Going to ground being a pure exploitable mess. Vehicles having one damage table. Scattering ALL blast weopons makin a lot of them terrible and not worth taking. While having to roll scaters way to much instead of once or twice at most per turn. True LOS invalidating most terrain options because now I see you through the woods. And wen all of that is house ruled you are playing a worse 4th edition.
>>98555662Got a RL friend working on it. Scaling it down, simplifying it and making it stick closer to the lore. He's making it so that dads can afford the time playing it, and for it to be carried easy. Hexgrid.But he's only on his 3rd faction (Space Marines, Tau and currently working on Guards), so it might take a while.
>>98590629That sounds awesome. Have anything you can share?
>>98555662Check out Sahipkıran: Psychonics
>>98590603Lol found you), you just couldn’t help it. Liar.
>>98590588>HP are retarded on vehicles>Does not elaborate at allWow good feed back anon, tell me why you think models being able to run is bad for the game.Spoiler, its not.
>>98590603>Running making transport irrelevant>Being able to move and not get shot to fuck because you are in a transport is le bad. Holy fuck this is really the hill you want to die on? This is really your Alamo, screaming that running is bad lmao.
>>98590968Running is bad when all the codex books were not designed for it, and transports are there for a reason.
>>98590962Do you need to be spoon fed? The 4th edition armour system is way more thematic and makes tanks feel like tanks instead of glorified monster creatures.
>>98590974>Being able to move and then not get your dudes shot to ship by AP3 weapons is some how not good.Holy fuck anon, you really are gonna die on the hill of running is bad. >>98590978The HH system makes tanks actually feel like tanks, they dont just get randomly deleted by a single las canon from across the map, you cant just spam fire them to death with HB either, you actually need to bring anti armor to deal with armor like you should. If you do not know how the armor system works in HH go look it up, its the first time armor has felt good in a VERY long time.
>>98590983>Deleted by a single las cannon from across the mapNta, but, that’s what las cannons do, they punch holes through tanks. Thematics aside, is it easier to bring AT in hh? I regularly play 1250 point games of 40k and you might have only 3-4 lascannons in your whole army, maybe a melts gun or two. I’m just having a hard time picturing how making tanks that tough would work out well.
>>98590983>they dont just get randomly deleted by a single las canon from across the mapThat is the fucking point, don't expose yourself to AT fire.
>>98591029>I’m just having a hard time picturing how making tanks that tough would work out well.Picture all tanks being 4th edition falcons 1 of 36 lass cannons will destroy that thing. The boy here can't handle his tanks blowing up because they have to be strong against everything and error proof to mitigate his complete lack of skill.
>>98591074See I can picture it working out well when paired with more and easier access to AT. I know (without having played it kind you) that you can field a whole squad of lascannon marines. But is it still 250 points of lascannons? Maybe they got cheaper. So maybe overal the same effectiveness, bur less swingy on a few dice.
>>98591100 #It would be retarded and bad, just like vehicles with wounds, go play nu hammer with the plebs.
>Alternative Games to Play Warhammer 40k>looks inside: Fake grogs that do not play the game whining about any change no matter how smallThis is why the Fourth project failed
Everybody repeats to play 4th with a mix of 3rd and 4th ed codexes.But which ones? What are the good ones for each faction?
>>98589495Just drop a pdf on Virus Total.
>>98591378All third except for the first batch of 4th ones:Space marines, tau, tyranids, catachan, black templars. If you are not making super competitive lists you can also use the ork and eldar ones. The demons one is a bit hit or miss. The chaos and dark angels are bad. Imperial armour books are fantastic with 3 lists for lost and damned, kriegs, elisians and extra units for tau, tyranids and space marines, and great thematic campaign missions.
>>98591496Does the 4th ed SM codex replace all the previous ones + BA/DA/SW/etc?
>>98591504BA, DA, SW have third edition codex suplements. DA has a terrible 4th codexSW has a busted 5th ed codexBA has a 4th ed WD suplement. I would suggest playing 4th space marines + 3rd ed suplements and 4th ed FAQs for DA and SW. WD suplement for BA. Or straight 4th ed space marine dex because specific codex books for slightly different marines was a mistake.
>>98591378We didn't realise how good we had it was the sheer amount of great art we got in 4th, those books and white dwarf at the time was absolutely packed with it, now we get a codex cover that is a mediocre digital painting and a bunch of photos of the models.
>>98591567We will never get a 4th ed arbook, everything that comes from GW will be 90% digital primaris trash with some AI on top.
>>98591557>4th space marines + 3rd ed suplementsThanks! But is that really compatible??
>>98556058I'd go with 3rd Tau and Marines, but this pretty much sums up this game. RIP 40K.
>>98591625Yes there are official FAQs for that.
>>98591677The tau one makes the plasma more expensive (which is good) and adds a much needed variety, the units added are side grades or not particularly strong so it works very well. The marine one is also mostly the same but with better text and balance.
>>98591678ah, niceAnd how it was the balance between 3rd and 4th codexes?Would the 4th SM codex be too much for the 3rd ed Ork codex? etc
>>98591693Overall I would say that it's good, if your ork friend struggles with 3rd a lot he can try the 4th one and find the spot that works well for him. Regarding 3rd ed orks there is a list for fral orks too, in the chapter approved books.
>>98591384Is virus total actually reliable?
>>98592241But as mentioned, we play a lot I have lost plenty of times against 3rd necrons and dark eldars with 4th tiranids. I have seen the 3rd ed eye of terror SW beat tau without a sweat.
>>98591100That's the thing there are more easily accessible anti tank options in newer editions of 40k and HH. HH you can get 3 rapier destroyers which will give you 6 shots at 36" of S10 AP2 2 damage raw, and 3 damage if you stand still.So having more durable vehicles works out just fucking fine. At then end of it, it makes tanks feel like they are actual tanks, not cardboard boxes with wheels. It makes it so you have to bring anti armor and encourages more all comer lists. Its been incredibly healthy for HH with the changes.
>>98592287>>98592287>HH you can get 3 rapier destroyers which will give you 6 shots at 36" of S10 AP2 2 damage raw, and 3 damage if you stand still.I forgot to add that this only costs like 175 points in a system where the standard game is 3000 points and even 3.5k is common now.
>>98592312nta, but 1500 points are perfectly viable and tons of fun
>>98590668>Check out Sahipkıran: PsychonicsHas anyone played that? The guy making it was on /awg/ semi regularly but it fell off.
>>98592344Im not saying 1500 is not perfectly viable for fun, i enjoy 1500 point skermish games quite a bit. But im saying in the context of the standard game now for HH, there are more then enough options for Anti Armor against tanks.And as i said before, one of the things that HH does well is that the specific anti armor weapons are typically High damage but low number of shots. So like you might bring an anti tank options that say has a neutron laser on it, and it will FUCK up other vehicles and one shot rhinos and predators, but if you turn it against a terminator squad, it will still only get 2 shots and make 2 terminators REALLY dead but its not gonna be wiping out a squad if left alone.HH has done the thing i really like, they make you bring the right tools for the right job, there are few catch all options, and the ones that are, are not unique to just 1 legion they are either generic or super expensive or have proper counters to them.
>>98592360Worse 4th ed, go play your stinky space marine autofellative game.
>>98590629>playing it, and for it to be carried easyhard to beat epic for that. 40k is many things, but easy to transport has never been one of them
