Protect and serve edition >Cyberpunk 2020 vs. Cyberpunk RED?Cyberpunk 2020 is the second edition of the Cyberpunk TTRPG by R. Talsorian Games, set in a (then) future inspired by film noir and the dark science fiction films and books of the late 20th century. It focuses on simulationist gameplay and lethal near-future combat.Cyberpunk RED is the latest edition of the Cyberpunk TTRPG, set after the devastating Fourth Corporate War. It focuses on more balanced, streamlined gameplay and is currently supported by R. Talsorian Games.>Resources for RED:https://datapool2045.net/>RED has free DLC and extra content, including character sheets: https://rtalsoriangames.com/downloadable-content/>RED Easy Mode is available for FREE: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/cyberpunk-red-easy-mode>Previous thread: >>98427977>Thread question:Have you ever ran an NCPD game?
>>98563633I like RED. It's a good game for drinking beer and fucking around. Max out some skills at cc and do crazy shit like swinging between buildings spiderman style with two grappling hook hands or jump a motorcycle on to the back of a tank and drop C9 charges up its ass.>Have you ever ran an NCPD game?Nope but I was in a trauma team one. We almost got fired because the client flew out the side of the AV as we were taking off after a rocket hit one of our engines. Three failed athletics rolls to catch him and yeah he was splattered on the freeway.
>>98563633Can you even play PD? Seems anti-punk.
>>98564033lawman is a class in the game so yes, you absolutely can. a lot of cyberpunk's most common enemies are gang members.
>>98564060>whole party of corrupt criminal copsI guess points for realism.
>>98564060Hell, night city vice can be a decent option. There was a whole book on it for 2020 for running a campaign, however it had problems with the fact everyone’s one class.
>>98565035That's unfortunately the problem with some themed games, desu
>>98562551>>98562982Good posters full of love and kindness in their heart, intelligent, well-rounded, moisturised, flourishing. Beacons for the lesser sniper posters to look up to.>>98563197RAW yes your interpretation is correct, but you'd be a fag to do it, and your GM would be a fag to allow it. Autism speaks, and now it needs to be quiet and listen. If you had a tool and chose not to use it you are metagaming and ruleslawyering, there is no in-universe reason for why your character would choose to try to toss a salad without salad tongs if they had a pair of salad tong on their belt. Nor would there be a sensible reason for why a character who has failed to toss the salad would recruit others to toss the salad in their place, or spend four times the time to really thoroughly toss that salad unless there was an imminent and pressing need for a salad that was tossed. Stop trying to find gaps in the ruleset to exploit, you're ruining the game for yourself and others.>If you do thing you can't do thing again, rolls are final>If there is a meaningful change in the conditions, or you meaningfully inconvenience yourself to accomplish the goal, you can get a second roll
>>98564033Well, part of Punk is inevitably how prone punks are to sell out/be hypocrites. Even Johnny Silverhand, The Punk's Punk(tm), was totally fine working with the corps when it was convenient and had a good paycheck.That aside, I could see a couple entry points:> be NCPD thugs> not most corrupt but not snitching to IA either> get dragged into Edgerunning due to blackmail, wrong place wrong time, or their Captain ordered it off the books> be streetrats> want to join a gang with a life expectancy greater than 1 month> NCPD> do streetrat shit while trying not to get busted from the force> be One Good Cop> actually trying to Protect and Serve> know NCPD ain't doing shit> moonlight as edgerunner as a way to go after gangs/targets the NCPD is bribed to avoid>>98565035DGD has a good example that not all cops are the Lawman role: Detective Escobar is a Media.So, you could have a Fixer or Tech Quartermaster. EMT is gonna be a Medtech. Solos are Solos, obviously.
>>98563633Afternoon anons!I want to make some cyberpunk terrain.I figured cargo crate high tech ghettos might be nice.I found that wargames Atlantic’s mini factory sells stls of pic related.https://www.myminifactory.com/it/object/3d-print-death-fields-container-upgrades-779376It is meant to be an addition to their hard plastic crates but hopefully will be fine on its own or be fine with other free crate stls.Has anybody printed this? Or used it with free cargo shipping crate stls? Maybe it can used on its own?Also what other terrain stuff should I look for to make cyberpunk wargame terrain?Also how good is the em4 reprinted combat zone game?Figured this would be best place to ask.
>>98565398Solos are C-SWAT/Max-Tac.
>>98562608>>98562649>Like why bother with a weapon that's only good at point blank range when Melee options exist and are typically stronger?Because shotguns are a good tool for a player who has invested into Shoulder Arms as opposed to melee. Again, having weapons that are situational useful isn't bad design.Moreover, I don't know how either of these would be considered a "noob trap." Players have access to the range tables, the Shoulder Arms skill is useful for firing a variety of weapons, and the player generally plan out their own jobs around their skillset. I guess if one of your players expected to be able to run around and exclusively use a sniper every single combat, including in CQC environments, then maybe you could say that, but I don't know if that's a fault of the system at that point.
>>98565311The tool use retry was not something I was seriously suggesting, hence "poorly thought out;" I assume "better tool" is included under the assumption you have to go out and get the tool somewhere/somehow, perhaps through additional skill checks or an entire job.However, taking extra time or using a complementary skill check to get a retry is not a "gap in the rules" so much as an explicit option the game leaves for open for players, both in the rules and in the ways the writers have talked about the game outside the books themselves. If you're trying to lockpick a door or jury-rig a vehicle, it's perfectly sensible to say "I did it quickly and failed, let me try again more carefully" or "I can't figure this out, I'm going to see if a crew member has insight on the problem before I try again."
>>98565651There are two NCPD Precinct 1 NPCs who are Solos in DGD. MAXTAC and C-SWAT might be Solo 4+ guys, but you could probably have some regular SWAT at Solo 2-3. But again, point is "Cop =/= Lawman Role." > Fixer: Quartermaster, Vice Unit (you're gonna know people!), Undercover Cop> Tech: Quartermaster, IT Guy, Gun Nut with a Badge> Solo: Gun Nut with a Badge, TAC team, > Media: Detectives and investigators> Exec: Sergeant/Captain, Internal Affairs agent, Desk Jockey> Netrunner: Cybercrime Specialist> Nomad: Motorpool (family access = Motorpool)> Rockerboy: Public Affairs Cop, "Cops" bodycam streamer
>>98483027Hey, in case you're still lurking, just wanted to let you know I appreciate your work and you sharing it. Never had any idea you visited these generals since I first picked up this material in a re-post, but we've been using it at my table and having fun with it.
>>98565676I'll say this, I don't like what they did to shotguns, as shotguns in the 2020 time were a great option for low end. need a long gun that is decent, but low cost? basic bitch pump gun, gets you something that does decent damage, and can be a ok rifle with slugs. red made shotguns into a little bit of a gimmick, with buckshot being kinda dumbly done. I would Imagine the shotgun gaining some foothold even moreso in the era of red, due to its ease of reloading, and simple construction.
>>98566272I don't mind the buckshot gimmick much. It helps with a crowd control fantasy and gives it a niche, as is, but it could probably be tweaked. A DV13 to hit isn't awful, but feels like a complete waste since you hit absolutely no one, and letting enemies still bullet dodge is even worse.You could still use slugs, but I think the DVs for them could be better. Similar to what you said, as a cheaper rifle.
>>98564033Half of the most Cyberpunk media the Protagonists are cops.Ghost in the shell, RoboCop, Blade runner, etc? Cops are as common a noir protagonist as crooks are.
>>98566677The problem with buckshot is that there's no situation where using it is better than just throwing a grenade (or a molotov cocktail, if you need something cheaper).
>>98568124Yeah but it's entire purpose is that it's dirt cheap. It's one 1eb per 3d6 AOE. Grenades are somewhat costly (50-100 eb depending on how you acquired them.) I think dropping the damage an entire 2d6 is what makes Buckshot mediocre; Though I wonder if this is supposed to represent Buckshot having poor penetrating power. The low critical chance doesn't really fulfill the fantasy of Buckshot. If all shotguns did 4d6 damage while loaded with shells instead of a couple exotics, I think the feature wouldn't be half bad.
>>98568124>no situation where buckshot is better than a grenadeDid you know that for the low, low price of 100eb, ANY character gets access to a version of the Lawman's Backup ability? Just toss a grenade and a squad of cops will be on scene lickety split!And I can't think of ANY downsides to tossing around fireballs inside of enclosed spaces - after all, it's not like arson is a CAPITAL OFFENSE in Night City...But seriously, folks are way too lenient in having no consequences for breaking out heavy ordinance and armor.
>>98568289If you wanted to represent the low penetrating power, you could have it roll 2d6 twice instead of 4d6. It's a little convoluted but each damage roll would theoretically get eaten by armor, while still doing the same average damage to unarmored targets.
Is there anything in media akin to the popup shield cyberware? I need character and/or reference pics for an encounter I have planned
>>98568403You can fire off dozens of rounds in seconds, but once a grenade goes off that's when the cops are called. We're technically lax about everything.
>>98565676>Because shotguns are a good tool for a player who has invested into Shoulder Arms as opposed to melee. Again, having weapons that are situational useful isn't bad design.Yes, but think of it this way. Shotguns are just worse Assault Rifles and if the player really needs something for Close Quarters than a Shotgun is just a worse option compared to Melee, Martial Arts and even Hand Guns. There's very little reason to invest in them when an AR is the same price and not terrible at close range either. Red has no opportunity attacks or anything to prevent people from moving into the 17-15 DV Range if you Base is low enough you can't hit a 20 reliably. Shotgun Shells should give Shotguns a niche, but they're just awful in general due to the low damage and small aoe/short range. >I guess if one of your players expected to be able to run around and exclusively use a sniper every single combat, including in CQC environments, then maybe you could say that, but I don't know if that's a fault of the system at that point.Sure, once a player learns Sniper's are useless they'll get a new weapon, but the first encounter where they pull out their rifle and realize they can't fucking hit anything is really shitty. I really don't see why they made Sniper DVs so high in the first place when they're already balanced out by being pricey and having low ammo. Giving things specializations doesn't mean you have to make something useless outside that specialized area.
>>98569159They're not useless outside of that specialty. At 51-100 m/yds they shoot just as easy as an Assault Rifle; meaning building to building, vehicle combat, ambushes in the desert, etc, they perform just as well; but don't then fall off when you get past that point.The only thing this conversation has convinced me is useless is you. You're completely incapable of putting aside your preconceived notions and are simply wasting everyone's time regurgitating the same argument. If it sucks so bad, use something else.
>>98569198>They're not useless outside of that specialty. At 51-100 m/yds they shoot just as easy as an Assault Rifle; meaning building to building, vehicle combat, ambushes in the desert, etc, they perform just as well; but don't then fall off when you get past that point.So, just use an AR? Atleast the DV won't shoot up if the enemy advances on you. 51+ meters is pretty big for combat map, so my point still stands that Snipers aren't great for normal combat encounters.
>>98564033I am the law
>>98569253Sniper rifles are gauged to be used typically at 300+ meters away, why did your bring a sniper rifle is you aren't doing overwatch or long distance shooting?
>>98569777>precision instrument designed to hit things far away can't also be used to hit things nearbyA rifle isn't like a mortar or something. It's just obtuse game logic that doesn't serve much of a purpose.
>>98569923>that doesn't serve much of a purpose.It serves exactly the purpose it's intended to: You are not going to use the sniper rifle in close quarters without eating hefty penalties. If you want to play a game where you can do that, play something else.Now fuck off and be retarded elsewhere.
Anon is what we call a "Dungeons and Drug Dealers" player.
>>98566109>You could have Regular SWAT at Solo 2-3.This implies Regular SWAT are mooks, and their combat skills are equivalent to random gangbangers. The difference between SWAT and C-SWAT is operational budget and cyberware.
>>98570285It does not; not any more than having a cop in the book that doesn't have a Lawman Rank meaning they're not a cop.You could have SWAT statblocks that are unhardened, as well as SWAT statblocks with no role abilities that are hardened. Depending on the precinct or org it actually makes sense for budget and veterancy to vary from team to team.
There was this one image I saw in this general of someone's cyberpunk character or oc maybe, but half of it was a regular looking person with a few panel lines iirc and the other half was them with all their cyberware extended which included limb extensions, blades or claws come out of the arms, and I'm pretty sure the legs became digitigrade. Anyone happen to know or have that image?pic is my best approximation of what i remember
>>98566109What exactly is a law man in an all-cop game? A dispatcher?
>>98570002>It serves exactly the purpose it's intended to: You are not going to use the sniper rifle in close quarters without eating hefty penalties.Yes, but is giving a 20-30 DV at close range is more than a "hefty" penalty. It makes it practically unusable in a normal combat encounter which is the whole crux of this argument.You've done nothing to defend your position of why this has to be the case other than call me names.
>>98575310Actually I was the one who called you names.
>>98575310>It makes it practically unusable in a normal combat encounter which is the whole crux of this argument.Yes. This is an intentional decision. This is what everybody has been telling you, it's not our fault you're too stupid to understand that.Now fuck off and play a system that does what you want.
>>98570049Cyberpunk is pretty similar to DnD. Atleast Red is.>heroic PCs who are far more powerful than an average person>huge focus on combat and loot>quest based structure for campaignsThe only real difference is it's progression is skill/gear based, has different combat mechanics and downtime adds an extra layer of things for a player/GM to do outside of quests.
>>98575337>Yes. This is an intentional decision.It is a bad one that is a detriment to play and you refuse to explain why it's good actually.
>>98575323It's okay anon, I thought I was arguing with one schizo not two.
>>98575364On the contrary anon, there is still only one schizo in this argument.
>>98566111Thanks this does mean a lot to me, this board is the place all of this stuff started, and then growed, and I'm sentimental about that. I'm not saying you guys made most of that (untrue) or even a substantial amount of (also untrue kek), but I did receive feedback and it was really a feel good thing to notice how it went from being called a retard and told to kill myself (gotta admit early ACPA doc was ass) through a that one post that kept me going and was for a time listed through acknowledgements, up to the praise and/or appreciation. There was a wisdom in these replies, opening my eyes to the fact I should make these free system additions for the joy of creation, not for external praise. And they were right. I wanted to cooperate with people here, but it ultimately proven to be difficult, mostly due to the lack of responses that actually added any merit (tg does not play their games, how original). So I started to keep it to myself and my players, after all this was, from the beginning made for them, and I had one player that actively collaborated with me taking about items, requesting new mechanics n shit. From my group, whom are my IRL friends, and whom I consider to be a very good players ttrpg wise, only a handfull of times anyone added any merit outside of that one dude mentioned earlier. I guess it's up to us, homebrewers, to go full autistic. I did enjoy the act of creation, if you dare to describe it so. Also I had no right to expect my group to go as far with the homebrew as I did.PS: I'm very curious what you meant by a re-post?
Maybe if a certain (likely disappointing) video game makes it easy to extract high rez views of its maps you can fix the sniper problem by making them the only viable weapon.
>>98575376I don't think anybody who browses this site is mentally sound desu
>>98575359So, anon. Even if Sniper rifles could hit targets at close range... Why would you bring one over a Assault rifle which has a magazine large enough that you'll never need to reload during a combat encounter unless you're using Autofire?And you'd never get into the position where having a Sniper rifle Would actually be useful. (You know being in a Sniper's nest) That would still make it a noob trap.
>>98566109That's just gave me an idea.Rockerboy re-flavored as a loose cannon cop, you're too popular to be fired, you're basically a folk hero at this point. Your escapades make you famous in and outside of the Department. And gives you authority beat cops don't have. Your name carries weight on the streets.
>>98577079They say the world isn’t ready for a rock-and-roll cop. No one *wants* their state monopoly on violence to be mixed with celebrity worship. They 'claim to know' it would be dangerous for detectives to rise to the ranks of demigods and have sexual encounters with barely-legal cover girls. It would be 'insane', they say. To all this you say: Fuck off and die. In a cool voice. You people have no idea how *good* these cops are gonna get. They're gonna crack twenty cases a day. In the future, cops will be like astrophysicists. Or prime ministers. Or prophets. And you’re the first one.
>>98567623Not only that, but a lot of Cyberpunk owes it's origins to Noir, and a staple of Noir is the jaded hardened detective who decides to go rogue in the name of justice in a cruel and uncaring city, usually for a woman, usually dying in the process. That's cyberpunk as fuck.
>>98565311>there is no in-universe reason for why your character would choose to try to toss a salad without salad tongs if they had a pair of salad tong on their belt.While I agree with you that metagaming is bullshit, there are perfectly valid reasons why someone would do something without all of the tools, specially on Cyberpunk where the book explicitly tells that the rule of cool applies. Pic related.So it would be perfectly normal for an arrogant little shit to go "look at this, this is easy! so easy I'm gonna do it with a hand tied behind my back" only to fail and start going "Shit shit shit shit shit" for the reroll.
>>98565830"Common sense writes better rules than I ever could." RED's "no rerolls unless you meaningfully change circumstances" isn't poorly thought out so much at it explicitly concedes that there is no possible way to hard-code which reattempts are reasonable and which are metagaming, and so it's up to the GM to arbitrate.There are times where not using all resources the first go makes sense, as you pointed out: asking a teammate for help after failing, or taking time after trying to rush it the first go. But those examples are wildly different than your original "I'll try with no tools, THEN use my techtool only, then techtool + techscanner, THEN all tools + time" case.On the flip side, there COULD BE a reasonable explanation for that kind of escalation, which is why the rule doesn't ban reattempts outright:>be thief trying to get into a locked room in a club>don't have tools on you because you're just scouting the place and security might've found them in a pat-down>unexpectedly get access to door unattended, try to break in using a toothpick and piece of metal>fail, abort mission for now>come back next day>sneak lockpicks and techtool past security>try again>fail>remember your choom has a techscanner built into his arm that could x-ray the mechanism>invite him to the club>power_of_friendship.gif>fail again>decide to just break into the club when it's empty so you can take all the time you need with the lockBottom line is that the escalation is reasonable, in-character, and actually comes with some meaningful setbacks (needing to abort and come again later, or needing to take bigger risks). When that escalation is being explicitly metagamed by a player, then it shouldn't be allowed, EVEN IF there could have been a plausible explanation for it.
>>98576695All sniper rifles now come with 30 rounds standard, automatic capacity, and are one-handed.
>>98566677I mind it some, if only for the fact it kinda reduces the utility. now if the buckshot abillity could be used as like a attachment ("adaptive choke" or something like that) it would be cool, but the thing with shotgun shot, would be it having a benefit of being slightly easier to both hit, and also have a better chance at critting. it's not going to be better damage wise then a rifle, but it's going to at least hit slightly more often, at the cost of better long range performance and significantly decreased capacity. the other benefit of shotguns in this idea would be that can unintentionally cause crits (the shot aiming for the chest also hits the left arm, and damages their long gun in their arms.) the shotgun isn't a melee substitute in this case, but a weapon that while less lethal then ar's, offers more utillity, especially when paired with significantly cheaper and wider options for shells, like flares (congrats, target is on fire and everyone can see in the low light fight), or beanbags (congrats, the target is stunned, get some cuffs or zipties on the retard and black bag him into the van.)
>>98577996Hell yeah
>>98577996you say that as a joke, but that's literally been for most of the GWOT era IRL a literal rifle category (minus onehandedness)
>>98576695>And you'd never get into the position where having a Sniper rifle Would actually be useful. (You know being in a Sniper's nest) That would still make it a noob trap.Yes and I'm saying remove that noob trap entirely by giving it more reasonable DVs at closer range while maintaining the ability to hit things at extreme ranges. It doesn't take away from the fact a Sniper is still a specialized tool for long range encounters, but the way they're currently set up flies in both the face of real world logic and good game logic.
>>98580673No I mean, it would still be a noob trap; because it would have no advantage over the assault rifle at close range, with the small magazine. And they would not have the ability to actually use the long range capability. (What outside of fighting enemy Snipers who are already 100+ meters away?) Still making it a waste of ebs. At this point it sounds like you want more of a DMR than a Sniper rifle. (Which is a thing as of Interface 5).
Alright I'm shutting the sniper rifle autism down. Buckle up we're going to do range-band autism instead:Weapons all have a few ranges where their DVs change. For the sake of convenience, we will call them "Ideal Ranges", "Good Ranges", "Falloff Ranges" and "Bad Ranges". Ideal Ranges for most weapons are DV 13, meaning that a starting character with moderate investment can hit 90% hit chance with them (REF 7 with 5 skill is a 12 base. You only tie it on a 1 which would have critical failed and rolled lower anyways). Good Ranges are DV 15 and require maximum starting character investment (REF 8 with 6 skill is 14 base, same critical fail math). Falloff Ranges are any DV from 16 to 20; they either require more investment to get to 90% or no longer can be pushed to 90% outside of Solo Ranks (16 and 17 can be achieved with Smart Links or EQ, 20 can be mostly mitigated but must have more skill investment to be dialed back to 90% again). Bad Ranges are anything with a DV past that which can take a lot of skill levels, high equipment costs and Solo ranks to overcome.So most weapons sandwich their Ideal Range with Good Ranges and have a single Falloff Range. Most characters will be using weapons within those ranges which are a relatively narrow band (as higher range bands are wider). Those who have been reading their books will notice that the Sniper Rifle has no Ideal Range; this is not by accident. Along with the Grenade Launcher and Rocket Launcher, the Sniper's best range bands are Good Ranges, but it has an extremely wide falloff range band going from everywhere from 25m/yds away to 800m/yds away. What this means is that with serious investment even a starting character can fire on targets in a donut of 775m/yds with better than even odds. With only a few levels of investment, the sniper rifle expands outwards its 90% zone and for the same investment it takes to be hitting out to 25 my/ds with a shotgun, you are easily hitting that massive strike zone.
>>98580818Though I agree with your overall point against sniper anon, I must nitpick. Red is not a "meets it beats it" system. DVs must be exceeded to in order for a check to succeed. So if you have base 13 and roll a 2 on a DV 15 check, you fail. You need a total roll of 16 or higher to pass a DV 15 check.
>>98580828That is correct, but REF 8 and 6 Skill is Base 14, so with full starting investment you reach the same 90% threshold on DVs of 15, because if you roll 1 you'll glitch anyways, and when you roll 2 you'll roll a 16.In either way, you score hits on 9 out of 10 results on the die; it's a question of whether or not you needed to fully max your starting stats to do it, or if you have a little wiggle room.
>>98580783It wouldn't be a noob trap, it'd just be a suboptimal option if close range DVs were lower. A Noob trap is something that is an active liability for a noob, like having Armor that cripples you, a role ability that takes longer to activate or a weapon that can't hit shit in a standard combat encounter.>>98580818>>98580828>>98580846All this sprouted from an argument last thread about doing away with Range DVs/Evasion Rolls in the first place and replacing them with a similar system to AC in DND. Range Bands are undermined by Evasion unless the player can't reasonably roll an Evasion higher than the Range DV so in my mind the only DVs that are relevant are those "bad" 25-30 range bands, otherwise it's just constant opposed rolls. For most weapons this is a non issue since it's 25-30 Range DV is well outside of where the player is expected to shoot, but Snipers flip the script by making their "bad" range the ones that players most often encounter, which is the whole problem. Yes you can min max the problem away, but it's the same issue with heavy armor, alot of effort for a mid ability when you could've just made them decent from the start and not sand bagged shit with ridiculous penalties.Like idk, I think the Range Band system is short sighted and designed with the assumption that players wouldn't all go for bullet dodging. Sniper Rifles being ass is just a symptom of the whole way Red handles rolling to hit being convoluted and messy.
>>98580915I think I have proven demonstrably that these 'bad' ranges are not hard to reach with relatively good probabilities for any character even casually committed to the concept and will further assert that you are neither the first white-room "designer" to come in, criticize a system working as intended and proposing a cure that is worse then the alleged disease.Players going all in for bullet dodging is also a symptom of 'buildcrafting' autism and is not realistically as much of a problem in real play, which is something many of you should do more before proposing OF ALL GODDAMN THINGS padding all the angles and edges of the system to be more like Dungeons and Dragons.
I saw some anons at one point mention how red apparently hates you cybering up, how true is this? I do not play cyberpunk so I'm just curious
>>98580953It depends. When you install cyberware, it lowers your humanity stat (permanently, unless you get it removed). If your humanity stat reaches zero your character becomes a cyberpsycho and becomes controlled by the GM. Your humanity is determined by your empathy score. If you started with a low empathy score, it does feel quite punishing to install any cyber. If your empathy was high you can install a lot of cyber before it ever becomes a problem.
>>98580915>A Noob trap is something that is an active liability for a noob,No, a noob trap is something that appears to be good when you are unfamiliar with the system but actually sucks. If it obviously sucks then it's just a shit option.
>>98580939Criticize me all you want about "white room" design or whatever but you're basically doing the same with your theory crafted scenarios. Making broad assumptions that everyone runs the game the same as you and assuming that the designers intent is law and can't possibly be flawed.I'm not saying an AC like system is the perfect fix for Red's problems, but multiple other games with gun combat use a similar system an IMO it's alot more elegant that either constant opposed roles or having to check one of like 20 charts on the odd chance the target can't dodge.
>>98581005The difference between me and you is you are insisting on how things ought to be based on how they demonstrably aren't-- I am demonstrating how they are as a counterexample and providing functional examples of the math.With the range bands being so central to RED's feel for gunplay I would suggest if you are against them to simply choose a different system to play. There is no way to divorce it from weapon and combat balance without gutting the entire identity.
>>98581151>There is no way to divorce it from weapon and combat balance without gutting the entire identity.Which is what I've been suggesting all along.
>>98581207I always thought DND should have had guns, range bands, ablative armour rules, maiming injuries, no classes, and have minimal to no supernatural elements. So I think you make a lot of sense.
>>98581590The difference is DnD tries to create fun tactical combat rules as opposed to whatever half assed bullshit Red is.
>>98577625>RED's "no rerolls unless you meaningfully change circumstances" isn't poorly thought out so much at it explicitly concedes that there is no possible way to hard-code which reattempts are reasonable and which are metagaming, and so it's up to the GM to arbitrate.That's not what RED does though; RED uses concrete mechanics and says "no rerolls unless the bonus is higher." It is in fact an attempt to hard-code something that should be squishier. If it said "no rerolls unless you meaningfully change circumstances" (or "make rolls matter", as I mention initially) and provided rough guidelines for the GM instead, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That's why I say it's poorly thought out.>There are times where not using all resources the first go makes sense, as you pointed out: asking a teammate for help after failing, or taking time after trying to rush it the first go. But those examples are wildly different than your original "I'll try with no tools, THEN use my techtool only, then techtool + techscanner, THEN all tools + time" case.Yes, that was the point of my case.
>>98580968This will always be jarring to me, to create an utter chromed-to-the-limit psycho you must start with a high EMP Mr. Rogers dude or else you don't have enough humanity for it.
>>98580915>Like idk, I think the Range Band system is short sighted and designed with the assumption that players wouldn't all go for bullet dodgingI've GM'd several games and I've quite literally only had two PCs that were bullet dodging with any regularity.
>>98580953Depends, all cyberpunk systems have rules in place to stop you from becoming Adam Smasher. Shadowrun for example, uses the same rules, they just don't call it humanity, and you reach zero you also become a cyberpsycho.>>98580968>>98581999It's less being Mr. Rogers and more being social. Humans are social creatures, and it should surprise no one in this board that isolation and lack of relationships turns you into a nutjob. How do you think you get THAT GUY who ruins the game for everyone else? do you think those people are empathetic and well adjusted?This is why Conversation and Human perception run off EMP instead of COOL like every other social skill. the more cybered up you get, the colder you get, the more unapproachable you are, the more maladjusted you become. You don't approach a gang member in real life and start asking about your odds of the city's baseball team making it to the world series, unless you're both in the same gang, you stay the fuck away cause he's a ganbanger. Now picture this guy with metal arms, steps that THUD every time they walk, and glowing eyes. Normal people are gonna NOPE! the fuck out of there. It's that lack of connection that symbolizes your Humanity. And what happens at 0 Humanity is that you go fully nuts due to this lack of connection. Think of school shooters, terrorists who think the world is ending if they don't kill a movie star, etc. The only difference with cyberpunk is that you have a bunch of chrome attached.And while there's some admission for the fact that everyone's cybered up, at least with a Nerual Port, most people should be able to tell when something's cosmetic or something means business. Drawing from real life again, Tattoos. They used to be thought of as something criminals and undesirables get, nowadays catholic schoolgirls get tramp stamps. And yet, there's still tattoos that denote danger. Tattoos that upon laying your eyes on them, you just know this guy is not doing cosmetic work.
>>98582188I mean what breaks my immersion is that it takes a superbly well-adjusted person to borg up and then they become a nutcase, but rules as written a baseline meat nutcase can't really borg up because they'll immediately freak out and cave in the skull of their ripperdoc as soon as they install some popup guns or whatever for the first time. In my opinion those dudes who are already fucked up shouldn't be fazed by installing lots of chrome.In Shadowrun, if I recall correctly, everyone starts with the same baseline and a disconnected murderhobo doesn't change their personality before and after chrome.
>>98582255in shadowrun there's no automatic stat penalty for cyberware, but on the scale of 0 to 6 (where 0 is overloaded to death and 6 is healthy and unaugmented) you can take an optional cyberpsycho type flaw when you go below 1. There's a minor social debuff if you go below 3, but it's the equivalent of wearing the wrong suit around normies.It's a better mechanic imo
>>98582255>I mean what breaks my immersion is that it takes a superbly well-adjusted person to borg up and then they become a nutcase>but rules as written a baseline meat nutcase can't really borg up because they'll immediately freak out and cave in the skull of their ripperdocI dunno why you thought this was an argument, this supports my point. Someone who's already halfway to becoming nuts will become nuts sooner. If it's the portrayal that's a problem to you, that's something that can easily be fixed at the table. You and your GM for example could come up with a way to roleplay symptoms of schizophrenia, hallucinations, paranoia, etc. That get worse and worse as you get more cybered up. The book doesn't tell you how to do this, because the book is a set of rules and some background fluff.
>>98582255Not every cyberpsycho is a chromed-up murder-junkie. Some of them retreat from society and become hermits, others can be relatively "normal" until something causes them to snap momentarily and zero someone before returning to how they were before. Johnny is a good example of the latter, since he believed his cyberarm had a mind of its own and made him do things involuntarily.It's worth pointing out that an EMP score of 2 or less is technically cyberpsycho territory, but it's only at zero do you lose control of your character.
>>98580953Cyberware effects your humanity, which also effects your empathy stat (which governs your social skills). And the way this connection works essentially makes it so no matter what, if you have a single piece of cyberware installed you are losing at least 1 point of your empathy stat. Now losing stat points isn’t that big of a deal, the issue is that, in RED in particular, cyberware really isn’t that strong, often times possessing niche or vague abilities that can seemingly just be substituted with basic items in most situations.
>>98581005>one of like 20 chartsThere's literally ONE table, lmao. >the odd chance the target can't dodgePretty sure the number of published NPCs that can bullet dodge in the can be counted on one hand.
>>98582078On the other end of things, I've been in two games, and in one 2/4 PCs could dodge bullets and in the other 4/5 PCs could dodge bullets. Only one Solo in each crew.
>>98582775Well yeah, it's not exactly hard to do. REF is the only Stat that gives you a bonus for reaching the cap, (Apart from wanting a 14 to a skill that's important to your character.) to lots of people "Oh, I wanna max out my handgun skill" REF 8, Handgun 6, and they'll be able to dodge bullets even if they didn't min max it with REF 8, DEX 8, Evasion 6.
>>98582078>>98582775In my experience once a player learns how strong Evasion is they will abuse it, even without min maxing evading ranged attacks is easy enough to achieve. My point still stands that Red goes to so much effort to balance it's weapons around the DV tables only for that careful balance to be undermined by a player with a small semblance of game knowledge.>>98582692>There's literally ONE table, lmao. There's actually 13 in the corebook and 15 more in the SOF45 splat, so 28 overall.>Pretty sure the number of published NPCs that can bullet dodge in the can be counted on one hand.Fair enough, but what if the GM decides to make their own NPCs or edit NPC stats? Giving them the ability to Evade Ranged is a huge power boost. Any NPC that doesn't have it is a sitting duck and combats become way to easy if you go strictly by R.Tal's own balance guidelines (which they didn't even come up with).
>>98586134We move the goalposts back where they belong and resume playing the game.
>Cyberpunk 2013>Cyberpunk 2020Has anyone tried to spoof the previous editions with like, culture from the real 2010s and 2020? I don't know what that would look like, buuut.
>>98586710We introduced some modern convenience technology to our 2020 game, amongst of which smartphones, but because it's contemporary technology in a dystopian "future" it's all pretty awful and you need rolls just to look up the news. We try not to draw in too many real elements, because it'd quickly be a cringe power fantasy, but we have references to culture up to the 20s, for example Steven Seagal is still alive.
>>98582255>In Shadowrun, if I recall correctly, everyone starts with the same baseline and a disconnected murderhobo doesn't change their personality before and after chrome.I think you could reasonably cut humanity as a stat and grant every player a standard cyberware load. Players mostly pick it to max out their cyberware and the actual skills covered by it don't get much play.
>He references popular culture past the year 1993.What a gonk.
>>98565539>no responses I mean cargo shipping containers may not be the best for a cyberpunk ghetto terrain layout.What else should I look at?
>>98586134>"13 in the corebook">calling each ROW of a single table as its own "chart":|>what happens when a GM makes their own NPCsThis is like saying DnD is poorly designed because it includes non-magical weapons when GMs might make all their monsters immune to non-magical weapons. GM skill issue.
I'm just getting into 2020 and had a couple of questions. Firstly in regards to the image do you need two feet to get the bonus, does one work and two gives a +2?And secondly can you spend pickup skill points on improving career skills at character creation?
>>98589661Of course you need it in both feet you gamebreaking munchkin, what are you gonna do with it in one foot? roll so one of your steps is quiet?>step THUNK, step THUNK, step THUNKAnd this also means that the bonus is for both feet as well.
>>98586446What the fuck are you on about? Nobody here actually plays games and my points have been pretty consistent. You're the one REEEING because I don't find your white room arguments convincing. >>98587976>calling each ROW of a single table as its own "chart"Semantics, still doesn't change the fact that there's 28 different sets of values you gotta reference. Red goes to so much effort to make the weapons balanced around those granular values, but that doesn't offer much actual depth to the system because it's undermined by a basic mechanic like Evasion. Generally Red's whole "choose to dodge before the attack is rolled" rules means players tend to favor Evasion unless they know the NPC can't reasonably hit them, so a weapon's "good" ranges become somewhat irrelevant, whilst it's "bad" ranges tend to define them. In my mind the Range DVs only really justify themselves by the fact that constant opposed rolls make the combat tedious, so you give weak enemies flat values to roll against to speed things up a bit.>This is like saying DnD is poorly designed because it includes non-magical weapons when GMs might make all their monsters immune to non-magical weapons. GM skill issue.This is a bad comparison and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Immunity to non magical weapons is not something that comes up alot and it's a pretty easy thing to counter. It's just one of bunch of ways a DM can add challenge to an encounter and it doesn't undermine any of DnD's core combat mechanics like Bullet Dodging does for Red. Adding Bullet Dodging NPCs is an easy way to ratchet up the combat difficulty. You are right that adding a few to each encounter might go against the Dev's intent with how combat should be balanced, but Bullet Dodgers are in the corebook, they're not some broken homebrew bullshit. It's a lever GMs often have to rely on since the game is pretty easy and exploitable in general.
2020 is such an funny game. What do you mean the cyberware and the humanity costs of installing something like a video camera or radar unit into your body is 2 or 3 but get an on-demand adrenaline rush or cyber penis, and you're looking at paying up to 12 humanity for those
>>98591661I have been in a RED game every year for the past four years, often without more than a week's break between sessions and about 2 months between campaigns. Here's my token from when I started.You might not play games, I play games. Now stop crying on my fucking shoes.
>>98591661>RED range tables suck because Bullet Dodging invalidates them>Immunity to nonmagical damage is rare, and the DM can control when to add it to an encounterAnon, do you smell toast?
>>98594165I was playing Red consistently for several years, both as a GM and a Player. I stopped around a year ago because of the dogshit ruleset and the GM of the game I was playing running out of ideas. I'm currently reading a bunch of other Cyberpunk systems and deciding which to run, but this general is for capital C Cyberpunk so we're stuck arguing over the same points ad infinitum. >>98595865My point is that Bullet Dodging is far more common than resistance to non magical damage and it's not like it negates a core mechanic like AC or something in the same way Bullet Dodging negates Range DVs. Resistance/Immunity to non-magical damage just means some players will have to adjust their strategy somewhat. It's hardly comparable.Like if every player had an option to ignore their AC and force an enemy into a grappling match instead of taking a hit, you might have a point, but to my knowledge DnD doesn't have anything comparable to Red's Bullet Dodging problem.
>I wish Cyberpunk would get new content>Monkey's paw curls>Cyberpunk gets new release>It's mostly the old stuff repackaged>Influx of new players are dnd autistsAnd it'll happen to you...
>>98596249>>98596249The bullet dodging gambles with the player's healthYou could roll high, but you could also roll really, really badly. All it takes is one or two really good hits and that starts a failure cascade if your players take critical injuries. Your players should be mindful of cover and grenades, which my enemies use liberally.
>>98596438>Wish cyberpunk gets new content>Monkey paw curls>Homebrewbro diagnosed for autism
>>98596471Yeah but when Evading the Target has an advantage due to having to roll over the DV. Having a 1/10 chance of fucking up the roll adds some risk, but it's usually worth it vs letting the Attacker roll against a flat value they have a better chance of hitting overall. Remember Exploding Dice means you also have a 1/10 chance of rolling a 10 so even players with bad Evasion benefit to some degree.Also grenades can be dodged and cover can be used in conjunction with dodging, so I don't see your point?>>98596438Blame Mike for putting out a bad core book and then leaving it to people like J.Gray and James to fix the mess while his nepo baby kids siphon resources to create their own vanity project.
>>98596580It has to beat the attacker's roll. Just make the attacker's attributes higher so dodging becomes a gamble.
>>98590141Well, nowhere in the description does it specify that. It seems weird to offer an option that needs two to work and never say it needs two . Unless that 150 covers both feet since it says the plural soles?
>>98596596Yeah right sorry I meant the Attacker has to beat the Defender's roll by 1. But giving the Attackers a higher Base just incentivizes you to dodge more.Like say you have an NPC with 18 Base, +2 from Excellent Quality/Smart Link and they're trying to hit me with an AR at optimal range. They can't miss unless they roll a 1 and even then they do they gotta roll at least a 7 on the exploding dice to miss me. Atleast with Evasion I get a chance to push the numbers in my favor even if my overall chances of avoiding the attack are still fairly low. To be fair, in this white room scenario you probably should be relying on cover, but Evasion adds an extra layer of defense if you get flanked by my theoretical OP NPC with maxed out stats.
>31st>still no DLC this month>no gencon announcementsWhat's going on at Rtal?
>>98591977Some things man was not meant to experience.
>>98597529>still no DLC this monthAnon, I...
>>98596438>Influx of new players are dnd autistsIf they actually bothered to play non-5e game, they're already top 10% of d&d players
>>98596438What do you people even want at this point? The game is so easy to homebrew that begging for stuff from R. Tal seems pointless.
>>98591977I love how they decided having the literal "reflex boosters" boost your actual reflex stat was too OP but this thing was totally fine
>>98600496You'll find the reflex boosters that boost your actual reflex stat in the deep space supplement. You can even take that one twice!
>>98596471>You could roll high, but you could also roll really, really badly.This is retarded, sorry (and true of rolls against range DVs anyhow). Rolling a -5 doesn't matter if they rolled a 7 and were already going to hit you if you rolled a 2; attacks hit or they don't. It's not terribly hard to check whether Evasion will reduce or increase the odds of this happening (it almost always reduces them).The exception is Autofire but this is more because the base DVs are so much higher you're less likely to be able to reduce the enemy's hit rate/damage, rather than because of the possible degrees of success, which are still capped (and you're always free NOT to dodge, of course!). Evasion 14 is still usually better than letting them shoot you at DV17.
>>98601835Static Range DVs have substantially less variance and are not effected by skill penalties. Being shot at at DV17 is generally worse than Evasion 14 until you take critical injuries, or suffer circumstantial penalties, or have to do it in smoke, or become seriously wounded, or have a bad night's sleep, or get hit with a Facedown, or enemies start loading High Velocity, or you're completely unaware and can't Dodge at all.Overinvestment in Evasion is a classic rookie mistake in play that Hardens a character early and produces an unbelievable amount of survivorship bias. Players who are not being challenged by their Ref, players who are minmaxing and playing very carefully (using cover, line of sight, shields and armor) and players that are being actively coddled by their Ref with rewards and ware to curtail these disadvantages because they don't want to 100-to-0 them with two bad open rolls in combat; they all think they belong to the same tribe when they say 'Evasion is overpowered, I don't feel like anything can touch me at all'.Not to mention that at so many tables I've seen Evasion has been rolled after Attacks rolls, which is backwards. Autofire's problem is another can of worms; in that its high variance leads to situations where the Evasion lesson cannot be learned because the outcomes that teach the lesson also very nearly (or do) kill the character outright.
>>98602045I dunno man I always max Evasion to 18 and I've never had a character die. I think in my 2-3 years of playing one was downed, but only because the GM threw a Melee gang bang at me. It may be survivorship bias as you say, but lots people have the same experience, so at what point do you just have to admit Evasion is really fucking strong and Range DVs are a flawed system? Penalties can be nasty but it's not like there's plenty of ways in game to minimalise their impact.I think alot of your arguments rest on the Players being bad at the game and the GM being an asshole, which isn't typical of most groups.
>>98602106Never. I don't ever have to concede to false dichotomy or an association fallacy.And now, for the fifth fucking time, I will suggest that if you don't like range bands, don't play a system with fucking range bands in it.
Tangential to this debate but this is why I think RED is better when players roll for stats instead of using point buy. You're gonna have a hard time defaulting to the generic bullet dodge evasion build when you rolled a 7 in reflex and 5 in dexterity.
>>98602123Okay well keep being obtuse then. It doesn't mean you're right and I clearly can't convince you otherwise.>>98602179Yeah I get the feeling Red's designers expected you to roll for stats or take one of the sample characters.
>>98600717I’m aware, and it doubles my point.Also bioware is just inherently not as cool a concept as something like a kerenzikov.
>>98602179>>98602336Which is I continue to be baffled and angered by their decision to make rolled stats' averages lower than the point-buy method.If they want players to roll for stats, they should've incentivise that, but they did the exact opposite.
>>98602179>>98602336More like the roles identities are more enforced. Your Solos even by rolling are still likely to dodge bullets, while Rockerboys, and Fixers can't. Strange that the second most likely to roll 8s in REF are Netrunners and Techies, and not Lawmen and Nomads.
A conversion of the Shirow-punk stats from Data fortress 2020 for RED https://docs.google.com/document/d/13eSmIT5-tXfDlTYNBanLRyplMuQMVijKNFZAV8j-NDg/edit?usp=drivesdkhttps://datafortress2020.com/shirow.html
Speaking of Shirow, any word on that upcoming GitS RPG?
>>98602045>Static Range DVs have substantially less varianceAs I said before, the variance does not matter when you're flattening the results into a binary hit/miss result. You cannot simply repeat this without reasoning. The raw numbers/scaling for range DVs vs Evasion are far more important, and Evasion wins that pretty consistently.For what it's worth, at the center of the opposed-roll's pseudo-2d10 distribution, i.e. where most rolls will actually be determine success or failure because it's rare for there to be a 10-point difference in modifiers, there is in fact LESS variance due to two dice being rolled vs one, for similar reasons as to why 3d6 has less variance than 1d20. I can show you the math if you'd like.>and are not effected by skill penalties. Being shot at at DV17 is generally worse than Evasion 14 until you take [penalties]Goalposts shifted, but I'll engage anyways.This is somewhat true (mainly because it's the Autofire example). You do however still have the option not to dodge, and the heuristic of "is Evasion+5 lower than the current DV" is not hard to eyeball.It's also worth noting that DV17 is specifically Autofire's best-case DV. In the modal case (i.e., single-shot attacks made with handguns and shoulder arms), a naive strategy of "always dodge" can pretty handily tank most -2 penalties, because Evasion 12 is still going to provide benefit against single-shot attacks made at DV13, DV15, and even an AR's close-range DV17 in many cases. If you get to -4 from a smoke bomb or a combination of penalties, Evasion 10 is still worth using at DV13 and often even DV15.>>98602106's strategy of maxing Evasion after char-gen makes this even more favorable, FWIW.
>>98606370That is not how any of this math works and it's insulting to me that you would be this confidently ignorant. Believe what you want.
>>98602045>>98606370Speaking of possible penalties:>critical injuriesI want you to tell me exactly which critical injuries and how likely they are to come up. Show your math. >have a bad night's sleepI won't say this never comes up but you cannot honestly tell me it's at all common.>or you're completely unaware and can't Dodge at allI mean, sure, but at that point you're not making a mistake by choosing to rely on Evasion rather than flat DVs, so it's not "gambling with the player's health" as stated initially.Other penalties are largely fair points, but as stated before a naive strategy can tank most -2s and it's rare to see -4s.Some other points:>Hardens a character early The threshold for a Hardened character is far too low and the GM should not be using "ah-ah-ah, you technically qualify due to Evasion despite wearing Kevlar and only having Handgun" as an excuse to field any Hardened enemies other than maybe mooks. This game's encounter balance already requires a lot of judgment calls from the GM based on a crew's more holistic capabilities.>survivorship biasIt's not really survivorship bias if it genuinely reduces the odds a mook hits you from 50-70% to 22%. Unskilled players get cocky, sure, and I won't defend brainless facetanking when the Survivability Onion should constantly be in the back of every player's head. But an unskilled player that bullet dodges is always going to be taking less damage over the course of a campaign than one that doesn't, same for a skilled player.As a final point I'd like to make clear I'm arguing about bullet dodging's efficacy and not the broader range table debate; I think the range table system and Evasion itself are both largely fine as-is, although if a GM feels Evasion's too powerful I'd probably recommend they change it to a 2x non-basic skill and leave it at that.
>>98606385Concession accepted, I guess. As a thought experiment, let's say if you rolled two 10s the result was changed from 20 to 100, and if you rolled a 1 and a 10, the result was changed from -9 to -100. What do you think happens to the variance of the roll's distribution, and what percentage of outcomes do you think are affected by this change? Do you think this would make Evasion builds significantly better or worse?
>>98606445Lets not do a thought experiment. Lets do math.Dice in RED explode on 1s and 10s, adding or subtracting an additional die. As a result, outside of fumble protection, dice have a range of 28 values; 8 of which are a 10% chance of occurring, with a 10% chance of 10 additional lower values (each therefore with a 1% chance of incidence) and a 10% chance of 10 additional higher values (m.m.). A base of 15 against a DV of 20 (which is closest to the median value of a 15 base; thus I have elected to use these DVs and Base values for cleaner math and their presence on most range tables as 'bad' ranges) results in roughly even odds, with you rolling a 21 or greater roughly 50% of the time.For a base of 15 against an evasion base of 15 (which is also closest to the median value of a 15 base) your success is actually about 4% lower; this is because of the ability of an opposed roller to roll critical successes and your ability to fumble. As evasion values change you will see differences in the success rate as the curves deviate from one another but IN ALL CASES the resulting increase in ranges result in increased variance regardless of success or failure chances.Check my work: Plug this into Anydice.function: redexplode ROLL:n { if ROLL = 1 { result: ROLL - [redexplode 1d10] } if ROLL = 10 { result: ROLL + [redexplode 1d10] } result: ROLL}set "maximum function depth" to 2output 1d10 named "1d10 Raw"output 1d10+15-20 named "1d10 Flat"output [redexplode 1d10] named "Red Die Raw"output [redexplode 1d10]+15-20 named "Red Die Flat"output [redexplode 1d10]-([redexplode 1d10]) named "Red Die Opposed"Now you are free to test me on any matter of design goals, player preferences, system substitutions and alike, but if you ever feel the need to test me on the math again, bring fucking receipts or I will fucking bury you again.
Did we get dlc for last month? Where are the 2077 sourcebook news too?
>>98607447Cyberpunk RED Alert! – August 2026 DLC – Con Jobs – R. Talsorian Games https://share.google/mLTeY5dbQSQDxzCOx
>>98607332Ah, cool. Personally I prefer to model the RED d10 with an arbitrary die as it's more intuitive for me and requires less manipulation for the hypotheticals I typically run. That looks like:1d{0, -1, -2, -3, -4, -5, -6, -7, -8, -9,2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2,3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9,11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20}While the full math for that would be 1d{}+A - (1d{}-B) where A and B are the attacker and defenders' bonuses, I usually consult a raw 1d{}-1d{} roll table to save anydice the compute, though, since the rest is arithmetic that can be done mentally.
>>98607332>>98610171Now, as to the actual meat of the disagreement, comparing +15 to-hit vs DV20 and +15 to-hit vs Evasion 15 is laughably divorced from in vivo play.DV20 is, as you say, the earliest "bad" range for most weapons; if you're playing enemies like retards in unfavorable conditions and constantly firing outside their effective ranges, sure, but between map sizes and basic tactics, enemies fire at DV13 or DV15 far more often, IME.Likewise, +15 is higher than what most enemies can achieve; Mooks (Hardened or otherwise) and Lieutenants have +10 to +12; Minibosses and Hardened Lieutenants go as high as +14. For +10, DV13 is a 70% hit rate, DV15 is 50%, DV20 is 10%; against Evasion 14 it's ~22%, and against Evasion 16 (representing a dodgefag after a couple months of IP), it's ~15%.For +12, this is 90%, 70%, 20%, ~32%, and 22% respectively.For +14, this is 91%, 90%, 40%, ~46%, and ~32%.If you have different calculations I'd love to see them.From this we can see that Evasion 14 significantly reduces enemies' hit rate at firearms' usable ranges; at DV20, you should generally be letting enemies roll against the flat DV until you can invest more IP into the skill. While I would still tell players to dodge intelligently (and do so myself), the naive "always dodge" strategy is still unfortunately very effective, especially if the player beelines to max Evasion.
>>98610178Well I'm grateful you've bothered to start doing the math instead of shooting from the hip and being wrong; now if you had started with that maybe I wouldn't have called you a retard.The variance is higher.
>>98610650Yes, my off-the-cuff aside about the difference in variance between the distributions was incorrect; you'll have to forgive me as college statistics was quite a few years ago by now. On reflection it would have been more representative to set the limits of the subsets based on percentiles within the distribution rather than roll results (e.g. middle 80% of values, rather than the middle 10 points). I'll note that it's still possible to construct a distribution with wider range but less variance. The 50% to ~46% drop is not because of the increased variance, but because the center of the 1d10 distribution is between two outcomes, allowing neat bifurcation, whereas the center of the opposed-roll distribution is at exactly 0 (assuming equal bonuses); what determines that loss of ~4% is merely that the defender wins ties and reaps the ~8% value of the 0-outcome.I also take it you concede that the variance doesn't matter here, that Evasion is in fact not "riskier" than range DVs simply because you "might roll really high or really low"? The numbers I've given show that bonuses/DVs are what actually affect the odds; I've noticed you've retreated from every other point I've made here.
>>98610870Nah. But keep doing the math; it makes these arguments a little bit less of a waste of time when disagreement isn't based on vibes.
>>98610899At this point I might as well, I suppose. I'm aware you're disengaging to save face but I do enjoy talking about this and hopefully this may be to others' benefit.The point of the earlier hypothetical you avoided engaging with is that the distribution's variance is massively spiked by modifying the rolls this way; you can compare on anydice at program/43860 if you'll forgive the ugly code. This modification increases the variance by ~9x. Despite this, the outcomes in the middle 90% of the distribution change their probabilities by only fractions of a percent. If variance is so important to the outcomes of the roll, this would not be the case, but because it's concentrated at the ends of the distribution it matters significantly less for most rollsLikewise (but less dramatically), the variance caused by opposed rolls happens primarily on crits, which are already rolls you were likely to lose; as I said from the very beginning, if you would have lost on a 2 it doesn't matter if you roll a -5.
I don't think I quite follow the 2020 armor rules, if I say had the kevlar tshirt, and then put a light armor jacket on over that so I get an EV penalty?
>>98611195YesSomething I think the later writers didn’t realise or forgot is a Kevlar T-Shirt is not a garment made of Kevlar (hence why we got bandannas of the stuff) but padding strapped to the body over the top of clothes. It’s bulky and awkward by default.
All 3 of you 2020 players, what's your take on the fashion section in chromebook 4?I was reading through it and maybe it's just the powergamer in me but all I can see is super cheap SP18 armor with zero penalties, and it seems too strong desu
>>98606317Stop wiggling, Major!it's indecent!
>>98606317Keep wiggling, Major!it's indecent!
>>98613340
>>98612718I love the pictures and use them often.I do not use the armor as written. Depending on the desired power level you can either massively increase the price, reduce the SP to 10 or 12 stopping the majority of pistol rounds, have them deal some blunt damage if they don’t penetrate, mix and match these options, or remove the armor all together. Personally I don’t like invisible SP, especially not when skin weave and the Kevlar t-shirt exist in that role. But I also like to keep the core book pistols relevant and per protect and serve the average cop has a 9mm with some having 11mm (3d6).
>>98603284>>98603343What would be a better method of rolling for stats? 3d4 drop the lowest?
How common should exoskeletons be next to cybernetic augments?
>>98606317f1l3b1n/ha7mqfamhd4rib4f
>>98617259Many thanks
>>98612718That fashion section is a popular piece of evidence people use to argue that RED is more balanced than 2020, because you are correct, that is exactly what it is.
>>98564033The "punk" in "cyberpunk" isn't about anti-authoritarian rebellion, mohawks, dyed hair, and shitty clothes. It's about being poor, desperate, grungy, violent, rude, crude, and living in the overlooked alleys and gutters of society. The average cyberpunk protagonist, hell even the average noir protagonist, is at least a few of these qualities regardless of whether they're cops, criminals, or just regular people trying to survive a harsh world.
>>98615752Exoskeletons in my view are primarily military and industrial tools. They're designed for people to hop in and out of, not unlike vehicles. They should be rare among civilians (if a civvie can afford a frame they'll probably get it implanted because it's theirs alone) but semi-common in industrial zones or military sectors.
>>98617576...I need to work on the brigador conversion, just so we have more exoskeleton options. also because the penpal is too stupidly cyberpunk not to exist as a weapon.
>>98603343Probably a dumb question, but is this table set up that if you roll a D10 for your Int stat, and if you roll say 3, it means your Int stat is 5?I ask since I have never played Cyberpunk tabletop.
>>98617557counterpoint: the original Cyberpunk short story was about a bunch of stupid kids hacking public networks to cause troublebut I generally agree with your point otherwise
>>98620994Correct. You can roll a d10 for an entire row or each STAT individually.
>>98620994Yes, in RED stats go from 1-8 and the idea behind these tables is that certain Classes should have a kind of threshold of minimum and maximum values of a desired stat.
>>98621042Yeah that makes sense. It helps/prevents classes from being gated from doing something you'd expect them be able to realistically do. Like say as an example in a fantasy RPG there is a barbarian class that's built like a brick shit house. You expect them be physically super strong, so it'd be kinda silly if they couldn't like kick open a wooden door just because they rolled like 1 for their strength stat.
>>98617259>The Major struggles to hold onto her individual identity as her work in Section 9 progresses. The boundaries between her ‘mind,’ her ‘self’ and her ‘body’ get muddled. She is driven to preserve her identity, and at times to gure out exactly what constitutes her humanity. On the other hand, she begins to feel trapped within the boundaries of her form, leaning into the idea of being part of the wider cyber-network that connects every machine and cyberbrain in the world. In the end, this con ict is resolved through her merging with the Puppet Master – the Major’s concept of identity changes, and she transcends into something entirely new without losing her sense of self.Wow, wrong Motoko, there, fellas. Dunno how she ended up in here.Actually that could be a plot hook: someone replaced the major with an imposter and you gotta figure out who's behind it all.
>>98617259>Section 9 Primary Personnel>Yano and Proto get mentioned but not PazEven Borma gets mentioned, and he has just as big a role in the manga as Paz (which is to say basically none)
>>98621465wow, come on nowit's Bouma who saves Motoko when she's about to get her head crushedPaz writes the reportsbig discrepancyBouma also shows up in HEP
>>98617259I like the nanite bandages and diagnosis injector, I'd steal that for Cyberpunk. Their more abstract handling of attack range and combat zones is also interesting, sounds useful for quickly sketching a map onto a napkin without getting bogged down in exact details.I've never been a fan of mechanics-enforced roleplay, though, so I'm iffy on the Synthesis Conflict concept. Some philosophizing now and then is fine but all of us can't be gazing at our navels every session.
>>98612718If people want to use those rules I would just adjust the costs, maybe force them to choose certain styles and qualities for higher SPs and also point out its strict revision of armor layering EVs.
My friends running a very small local convention and wanted more non-D&D GMs so I'm going to run CPR. Do any of you have a favorite one shot that's available online for me to run? It's Friday right now in my time zone and I've agreed to run a game Sunday so I've got a full day to read it and prepare
Are there nano machines that harden in response to physical trauma?
>>98625259Yes but it has the same stats as the starting armor that cost 10x less.
>>98625368That's so lame
Should we go back to welcoming Shadowrun players to the general?
>>98624882Are they all newbies? The adventure in the jumpstart kit is usually fine, you just have to change a few minor things since the rules changed after its publishing. Tales of the Red has a bunch of gigs you could theoretically run as one-shots. Red Chrome Cargo is a train heist, so that's usually fun for new players as well.
>>98625892Not that anon, but tbf Subdermal Armor slowly repairs ablation on its own (less important after Jeeves Bag got printed in Black Chrome) and is more covert than running around Corporate Zones in full tactical gear. It's also technically closer to 5x cost since it armors your head for free.Black Chrome did also include Trauma Response Nanomatrix, which is another 1000eb but lets you completely repair ablation 1/day. 1000eb/2000eb isn't nothing but you can pretty comfortably get Subdermal at char-gen (with enough left over for tools/weapons) and Nanomatrix after a few jobs.I wouldn't say it's amazing bang for your buck but it's not insanely expensive and far from ineffective for the cost, if you're dead-set on it as a character concept.
>>98625259No. Metal Gear Rising tech is several different levels above Cyberpunk tech. At best you get nanomachines that build armor plating underneath your skin so that you're somewhat bulletproof even when you're buck-ass naked.
Can somebody explain the difference between these two skills to me like I'm five? I don't know the first thing about aircraft, so googling terms like "fixed wing aircraft" and "ducted fan aerodyne vehicle" leaves me no less confused.
>>98627787Real air planes from the real world VS future air planes that are all sci-fi and shit and can float. The key word is "aerodyne" and the abbreviation "AV", you can compare that to the other vehicles in the book.
>>98627798Ah, alright then. This is my very first read-through, so I didn't get to the equipment/vehicle sections yet. Thanks!
>>98627944No problem. There should be pictures in the vehicle section, and also in the Chromebooks, that makes it a lot easier to wrap your head around what an aerodyne looks like.
Does anybody have vehicle homebrew for 2020 or red that they use? My group plays 2020 and I want to introduce some vehicular gameplay but the core book is kind of lacking and most vehicles, even in the supplements, don’t even have acceleration/deceleration values. It all seems really inconsistent. I’m aware of the compendium of cars on datafortress but at this point I’m more looking for a codified set of rules.
I'm inching my way closer to classless 2020, I had a stroke of genius when I realized you could just roll 1d10 against the role chart to determine pay scale, the only thing I have left is determining your pay level without role abilities which I do not have an answer to yet
>>98628769Which page is this?
>>9862910458 in the 2020 core rulebook
>>98630540Cheers
>>98630568Don't forget to also roll for whether that was your last paycheck or your *last* paycheck.This is such a fun book to read bros, I can't wait to run this game for my frens ASAP
What's your experience with ''high level'' cyberpunk? Your choice of edition
>>98635128Unlimited grenades
>>98635128>We're tired of the streets, boss, show us what the setting can REALLY do>Okay>Players have no idea how to deal with the power level>ACPAs, giant robots, claymores, and just a few katana wielding little guys with heavy armour make hamburgers out of them>Boss, the street is fine>Okay
>>98635128Whoever has the highest initiative flat out wins. I played a super kitted out full borg with an auto grenade launcher but because everyone else was some flavor of solo and i wasn't, I only fired a single shot the whole game. They blew everything up before I could have a turn
Are there stereotypes associated with Cyberpunk players?
I ended up hosting RED earlier last week for some family members (who introduced me to ttrpg) who asked for it. Character creation was pretty weird though, they all skipped out on chrome and when I asked why their answers were pretty odd:>one said that most cyberware is boring and pretty much boils down to benign stat bonuses with stupid costs>another said that his experience led to always trying to powergame humanity costs or outright avoiding it. Said that chrome wasn't fun to play with because he "was more concerned with avoiding humanity loss than planning for it and that it wasn't fun">another outright said why it was in the game when you could get tools and gear for that do the same shit with no humanity lossThen one of them asked if they could use their starting money in CC to buy skills alongside their IP. I don't know if I should call this a problem but has anyone else experienced this? Does the player's suggestion work? Kinda kicks my ass desu, what the fuck is the point of having all this cool cyberware and shit when no one's going to use and play with it? Anyone got any tips?
>>98639077>Money for skillsNo. Not even remotely up for consideration.>Players don't want to use cyberwareMy players also fear to chip, and they are not constrained by humanity loss. Just money. If they don't want to use cyberware then that's their business, all you can do is play the game the way you want to. Put cyberware on your NPCs, do the combos they should be doing like radar and smoke grenades, or grappling hook and sniper rifle. At worst you'll get to play with cyberware and have a good time, and if your players aren't weirdos they'll see how much cool shit you get to do and feel inspired to do something similar.
>>98639421This, chipping in is sometimes something of a process.Eventually they'll realize also that chipping in is cheaper than all the non-cyberware options.
The world really, really needs a Bartmoss right now.
>>98639077How much experience do they have with Cyberpunk or RED in particular? A lot of this reads like new players who haven't had a lot of time to read or analyze the options (and, in fairness, there's a few that are written more for flavor than balance). >another outright said why it was in the game when you could get tools and gear for that do the same shit with no humanity lossFor example, the answer to this varies by cyberware, but tools like Medscanner/Techscanner save you 500eb upfront in exchange for ~500eb of therapy costs later; you can defer payment by banking it in HL. Many other options like weapons are predicated on concealment being valuable, which can vary by campaign but the default assumption is that you're in NC and will need to go into Corporate Zones from time to time.I'll second >>98639077. Low/no chrome is both viable and not uncommon for the genre (although an entire party doing it less so), and the players want what the players want. But if you want to show them the highlights of the system you can do so with enemy kit.
>>98639077Did the player who suggested the money-for-skills rule ever play 2020? Because that's straight out of Solo of Fortune 2 for 2020 (picrel). Did they say its just for character creation or for the game itself? Character creation... then maybe, you'd have to make a price chart/table for all the skills, keeping the IP multiplier in mind. But keep in mind that your essentially throwing out cyberware from the game. At that point, I'd confirm if they were adamant about never taking any chrome in the campaign/one-shot, and then house-rule that they can't take any chrome at all in the future or else the skills they bought with money are reset back what it originally was pre-buy in. Do be cautious with this suggestion though, because that player probably neglected the fact that 2020 players who wanted a high-powered, solo focused, campaign with less chrome led to the SoF2 rule being made. If you're just running boostergangs, fixers, corrupt cops and local corpos then don't put it in. On another note, I will agree with that one guy though. Chrome in RED fucking sucks, it'd be a lot better if it worked like how the Reflex Co-Processor/Martial Arts abilities do. For a game about being a cool-ass Edgerunner, it sure is fucking bland on the Rule of Cool.>>98639421>>98639444>yeah dude, just chip in. its cheaperLmfao, how? There's nothing stopping anon's players from boosting an oxygen torch from some bum-ass garage and cutting open that locked steel door. Hell, if there's a Tech in anon's group then they can just strap a shitty grenade/pipebomb to a little RC toy car and drive it into the gangers or whoever the hell needs to be killed that day. No need for a pop-up GL when you can do that.
>>98639712>if I just steal the thing I need its free, obviously there's just everything I need lying around in a random ass self storageI don't even really need to make a counterargument here. Use your fucking brain you gonk.
>>98628769 (me)The most obvious idea would be just having the player dedicate one skill of their choosing as their 'role skill' or having starting pay grade be based off their highest skill in general. But they seem kind of uninspired.I haven't given these much testing either, but any input?
>>98639077>they all skipped out on chromeBASED
>>98639077tbf Cyberware in Red sucking is pretty common complaint. Linear Frame is a huge force multiplier, but everything else is either flavor or a side grade for normal gear that's usually cheaper and doesn't incur humanity cost.I'd just try a different Cyberpunk edition or TTRPG line altogether if they flaked at Character Creation.
>>98639782Using the table(s) for cashmoni create a generalised salary table based on the type of skill. Rockerboys are high risk high reward, netrunners are guaranteed a good baseline income but cap out sooner, such and such. Then map any skill the players want to use onto the framework in a generic way.>AthleticsLabourer, gym assistant, construction worker.>WeaponsmithTechie, armourer, guntuber.
>>98640508>guntuberYoutube still exists in 2070s?
>>98642617>And watch this video to the end and you'll get to see what we've been working on in HIRNAM where for a small donation you get access to behind the scenes videos not posted on Gloob>Today's video is about Militech latest foray into personal defence weapons with the- Mods, can you ban that guy? Minamifags should fucking hang themselves. FUCKING STICK YOUR DICK IN A SOCKET WEEB! MODS! WHAT THE FUCK AM I PAYING YO->So to conclude this weapon has everything you could possibly want from a personal defence weapon, and mention the rail options! This concludes today's video, stay fresh, gatos! Uh, so cut that part where I misspoke. You want to do the ADR now? And you can get several wonderful rail options such as->This video is private, purchase access for 200 EB
>>98642828Kek>"Mods, can you ban that guy? Minamifags should fucking hang themselves."I can imagine this is just them sending a death squad to kill some guy.Especially if it's some corpo sponsored youtube channel.
>>98643078>Twitch moderators kill 2 and injure 7 in botched ban>Roger Daniels, representing Tubmanxx69lover, claims that "These kinds of altercations naturally occur when delinquent netizens target streamers simply trying to provide a service on entertainment, which my client has been doing for 4 years now.">"The crime committed here is the falling social standard on our citinet, and the providers should be held accountable.">Twitch has not commented on the lawsuit, instead referring to its official terms of service, "What service users choose to invest their moderator resources provided by Twitch towards is the right and the responsibility of the user."I have such sights to show youMan this shit writes itself
>freeform job to deliver a blind date for a lady>table, after many talking to themselves and exploring options, directed a FBC to the lady for the laughs>they surprisingly hit it off>table suddenly take the whole thing seriously and making sure the date go well, turn to pic rel>mission complete, and got their contacts>some players even make it their goal to keep them safeWhat is it that make people hang to the most random npcs that were thought up on a whim
>>986405081d10 for role pay and 1d10 for level pay you say?
>>98643767One NPC generated randomly with the Dating DLC became wife of one of the PCs in our campaign.
>>98639077>Hey Joey, I got an order for a Cyberpunk with no cyberI swear every person nowadays is either a weird contrarian who refuses to go along with one of the main conceits of the genre, or a weird-ass actual transhumanist who gets personally offended at the suggestion that replacing half your torso with a robot spider body might be bad for your mental health.
>>98643767I can't tell you. Even I don't know why I will ignore and disregard the majority of NPCs and then I'll meet that one guy that my brain will arbitrarily decide to give a shit about. And if one player gives a shit, it more often than not prompts every other player into giving a shit as well, and that's how parties adopt Fartknuckle the Retarded Goblin for some fucking reason.
>>98647131The problem with RED is that the cyberware available is not nearly good enough to justify the punishing humanity costs.
>>98647202They've done constant passes to make cyberware costs less punishing in the long run and the ONLY place I hear people crying about "CYBERWARE ISN'T GOOD" is in here. There are some installs that are pretty much NPCware, but that in itself isn't evil.
>>98647699NTA but Cyberware in Red feels underpowered even if the humanity costs aren't too steep. Outside the Linear Frame, nothing in the game gives you a significant jump in power. The bulk of the cyberware list are minor stat boosts, extremely situational abilities or side grades to non Cyber gear at an exorbitant cost.
>>98648227Enhanced Antibodies and Autoinjectors are game-changing for longevity when injured. Basic Cyberlegs (with no additional options) negate fall damage for a substantial distance (for only 200 eb and 2d6 HL). Popups and subdermals give you fighting stats places where you'd normally have to go nearly naked. Radar/Sonar is a lifesaver in complex or dark environments, as are IR/NV.That's without touching neuralware that is full of flexible and powerful options; plugs for netrunning work just as well for driving or piloting an APCA/Frame. A large number of skill chips may be an HL sink, but Pain Editor alone is huge.Players that are anti-chrome are almost always not realizing what even a modest investment into cyberware can do for their fleshy characters, spoiled on excessive amounts of cash from their Ref, not being challenged enough by jobs or any combination of the above.
>>98648227>side grades to non Cyber gear at an exorbitant costDo you have any specific examples of this, off the top of your head? To my memory the vast majority of it is the same if not cheaper, except for weapons, which as mentioned in >>98639668 are charging a premium for concealability in Corporate Zones (although they also can't be disarmed and don't require an Action to stow).>>98648565In fairness, I think Cyberleg fall damage protection and Radar/Sonar or LL/IR/UV would be considered as "situational" by the anon you're replying to (although I agree Pain Editor, Interface Plugs, and concealable combat gear are pretty major).
Isn't a ton of red cyberware ported over from 2020? I haven't heard people say that stuff was underpowered
>>98647131>Lets play a game about losing your humanity, your very flesh in fact, in a dystopian world, a net of rules rigging the game against you, where best thing you can get is either letting go, or saving yourself, maybe someone else if you're lucky.>Cool I wanna be an android>I want to play as a sentient AI>Can I start as a full borg?>Oh I dont want any chrome, my character is allergic in fact, like that one sidequest in 2077
>>98648565>>98649073I'm not saying Cyberware isn't useful, just boring and often fairly situational. You get alot of your foundational ware at character creation and there's nowhere to go other than small piecemeal upgrades that don't offer any cool powers or anything. It's weird to me they made a Martial Arts book that gives natty humans the ability to do blatantly superhuman things but can't apply that same logic to cyberware.Personally I always borg out as much as possible, but I can see a noob looking at the corebook and thinking "man cyberware sucks." It's like the designers forgot the game was called CYBERPUNK.>Do you have any specific examples of this, off the top of your head?Subdermal Armor comes to mind. It's just more expensive LAJ that's harder to upgrade. Doesn't serve much purpose unless you're going into the field literally naked. Pop Up Weapons also count I think, just stow your pistol in your jacket bro or invest in martial arts
>>98650762>Doesn't serve much purpose unless you're going into the field literally naked.You can be asked (forced) to take off your armor. If it's literally embedded into your skin you have a good chance of bullshitting through that security check (though they might just ban you from entering entirely).
>>98651446This is the purpose of the words "can be concealed without a check". Instead of having to be good at sneaking your shit into places, a popup requires specialist equipment or to be searched by a specialist to be found at all.As a reminder, in 2077 the number of times you walk through a cyberware/metal detector or get wanted can be counted on one hand; even 30 years on they're an uncommon luxury found mostly in the most secure of government and corporate buildings. In RED, they're 1000 eb to start, expensive, and bad at their job. Refs should not be punishing players for opting for it by making all the venues canny to it.>>98650762LAJ that repairs itself, covers the head invisibly, can't be taken off of you are three reasons its better than LAJ already; and that's a massive understatement of what these three things can do for a player.
>>98648565No the players are correct, trading extremely niche benefits for guaranteed penalties with additional resource cost is not a equal exchange.
>>98651883I don't see a point in humoring their ignorance any more than I see a point in humoring yours.Cyberware in RED is cheaper, more accessible and often superior to gear equivalents and I'm one of the ONLY people I've talked to who makes sure to go out of my way to bust people's balls for drilling their EMP down to nothing; so it's not even guaranteed to be a penalty. Specific grievance with the rules of individual cyberware or comparing their HL and eb costs is one thing, but these broad, wild and sweeping assumptions are exactly that and completely divorced from the realities of play.You need to play games bitch.
>>98648565The problem is that players come into the game expecting cyber to make them stronger and it mostly doesn't do that. Enhanced antibodies let you heal faster, but only in downtime. Subdermal lets you go armored in places where armor wouldn't normally be allowed, but in terms of stats it's still only an LAJ. Cyberarms punch harder, but only against objects.With a few choice exceptions, namely internal linear frames and the pain editor, cyber in RED doesn't make you stronger. It makes you more versatile, which can still be good, especially with a good Ref who won't let you walk around full kit everywhere without consequences. However, most new players are coming from the 2077 game and anime and expect a higher power level from cyberware since that's how it's depicted in 2077.
>>98651993Even a brief skim of the core rulebook demonstrates this is incorrect. A smart link is one of only 3 untyped ranged attack bonuses in the book (the others being EQ and Combat Awareness). Speedware is the only way to improve your initiative outside of Synthcoke, which stacks. A pop-up shield is one of the only ways to conveniently carry a shield or use one with a weapon that is two handed (even if you can't fire the weapon with the shield deployed). Jump boosters, depending on the character's MOVE stat, open up movement to the point a character can leap into a 4th story window.There are a lot of direct statistical improvements and capabilities opened up by ware and these are just core-book examples.
How can I make a sniper character interesting? Usually when I make some edgerunner i have a pretty good idea of personality, style, or cyberware gimmick I want to go for. But I don't really have any ideas to actually make them a character instead of gun with a person attached besides maybe going no cyberware, and I don't want to do that because that's what I did with my last character (and it was pretty effective all things considered)
>>98611013I appreciate the math, but, none of this matters unless you have a total gonk gm who refuses to provide reasonable cover in a dense urban environment thus trashing the entire night city roleplay in favor of a series of sterile power checks. Instead of revising the rules you should revise your choice of gm.
>>98651446>>98651539This assumes that the GM abides by some unwritten, "no LAJ in da club" rule or the player isn't prepared to go in unarmored anyway. Honestly those types of scenarios where players are searched tend to be more stealth/roleplay focused, so the subdermal might not come into play.In my experience the cost in eddies/humanity makes Subdermal an end game luxury pick because it's benefits are situational and it shares the same stats as basic starting armor. The ability for Subdermal to repair itself is OK, but LAJ is also cheap to repair and can be done completely in a day as opposed to getting 1sp back a day with Subdermal. I guess combined with the Trauma Response Nanomatrix it's decent, but that's more eddies and humanity you gotta pay to make it worthwhile.
>>98652140n.b. I wasn't the original Evasion complaint guy, just was chiming in on the math. I'm not going to go back and find it but there's a point where I say I don't think Evasion should be changed, and another point where I mention the Survivability Onion and cover's utility even with high Evasion.That said, the Survivability Onion cuts both ways; "don't be hit" is on there just like "don't be acquired" is. If you're at all interested in combat, bullet-dodging and high Evasion will provide a meaningful increase to survivability against most enemies in most contexts; even if you're behind cover as much as possible, reducing the odds you take damage when someone does roll an attack against you is huge. In other words it's bad to run urban combats without cover, yes, but combats with cover will still inevitably result in enemies rolling attacks against you, and Evasion is still good when that happens. IME, having higher Evasion also allows for more aggressive tactics near the end of a fight, which speeds play up a bit.
>>98652140>>98652389There's also melee combat which tends to be more deadly then ranged and can only be avoided with Evasion.
>>98651950No, tying the utility of cyberware to the arbitrary sensibilities of your GM to provide the correct challenges in which their niche abilities have an off chance to be potentially useful is retarded design.You are retarded.
>>98652786Your insults would probably have substantially more weight if anything else you've had to say so far has borne even the slightest modicum of intelligent thought.The Referee has to run the game? Who fucking knew?s
>>98652786Pretty bold to assume anon designed the game.
I do want to ask what people would prefer for cyberware mechanics, as I'm relatively new to the (ttrpg) subgenre and am only familiar with RED so far. It makes narrative sense to me that much of what it offers can be done without it, just with more bulk and less concealability; guns, armor, blades, optics, climbing gear, recording equipment, etc. should be available to purchase as non-chrome items in the world. If stat bonuses are boring and things that you can do with normal equipment are off the table, what's left (genuinely)? The main change I can think of myself is just reducing the eb/HL cost for the overpriced stuff like Subdermal, but that's only a small part of the complaints I'm seeing here.
>>98652973>If stat bonuses are boring and things that you can do with normal equipment are off the table, what's left (genuinely)?Personally I'd like some Cyberware that enhances the Action economy a bit. Speedware that gives you something akin to an Action Surge would be nice.
>>98651993>The problem is that players come into the game expecting cyber to make them stronger>Enhanced antibodies [makes you stronger]>Subdermal [makes you stronger]>A few choice exceptions [make you stronger]>cyber in RED doesn't [make you stronger], it [makes you stronger]>[Players expect it to make you even stronger]The most important gains you can make are first made in your hearthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckZlj2p8W9M
>>98650639>>98647131>Common Cyberpunk themes "What is a man? Can someone who's 5% organic material be considered human? Is artificial humans, and AI as human as you and me? >Cyberpunk™ Too much cyberware makes you crazy! I wonder why Players want to explore transhumanists themes in the game that's title is just [genre-name™].
>>98652127A sniper is nothing more than a person who is really good at shooting over long distances. This could be anywhere from a SWAT specialist, a military sharpshooter, or a highly skilled nomad hunter. They learned how to shoot, and they learned how to shoot for a reason. Find the reason.
>>98655695>I wonder why Players want to explore transhumanists themes in the game that's title is just [genre-name™]."Cybernetics will make you crazy if treated irresponsibly" is a transhumanism theme. And even the game has examples of "5% organic" FBCs who are ordinary reasonable people in mentality. I suppose Cyberpunk does have very flat and shallow themes when you deliberately ignore and erase all the nuance it has ever attempted.But that's not even the point. The point is people need to stop being pussies about buying cool cyberarms with machine guns, because they're fun.
>>98655748>Cybernetics will make you crazy if treated irresponsibly""Cybernetics eat your soul, and make you inherently distant from others, and lack humanity" These are not the same thing. Even "responsible" cyberware usage erodes your sense of empathy. All cyberware installment is "bad' for you. You can be a responsible cyberware user, as much as one can "responsibly" smoke meth. The humanity system inherently flattens the philosophical debate around cyberware quite quickly for the player.
>>98655804>You can be a responsible cyberware user, as much as one can "responsibly" smoke meth.a -12 to your humanity so you can have a cool robot eye isn't going to kill your soul
>>98655804>The humanity system inherently flattens the philosophical debate around cyberware quite quickly for the player.Good. As a player, I did not come here to listen to you fail PHIL101. As a character, your sad monologue isn't going to help me pay rent or prevent corporate faggots from dumping toxic byproducts in my part of the slums.
>>98655695>>Common Cyberpunk themesImitation GitS is not the only way to make cyberpunk media. Cyberpunk the R Talsorian game is not a generic system, it knows the sort of things it wants you to be doing, and navel-gazing isn't one of them.GitS isn't even foundational media for either of the two big western cyberpunk RPG lines, with CP2013 predating it by somewhere up to a year, and SR1e being trademarked a month before the first chapter came out and published three months after said chapter.
>>98655980>Are artificial humans as human as you or me That's in reference to Bladerunner. >Can someone who's 5% organic material be considered human.I was thinking about Robocop when I wrote that, but sure. I want everything to be GITS.
>>98655695>I wonder why Players want to explore transhumanists themes in the game that's title is just [genre-name™].I'm still waiting for the day that my posts will not attract mentally retarded people.
>normie complains that the game isn't really cyberpunk>turns out his knowledge of the genre is limited to two or three of its most mainstream moviesDo you guys think this will change when the Neuromancer adaptation comes out? Or will they just accuse that of also not being real cyberpunk?
>>98655695This is bait for discussion, btw
>>98656202I've already seen people make sweeping judgements about the Neuromancer show based on a 60-second teaser. It's going to be real fun when the show actually comes out and you have a bunch of never-reads crawling out of the woodwork to lecture me about my favorite book and how the show "totally got it wrong." Of course, if the show turns out to be a steaming pile of shit, that'll be a different story altogether. However, I'm thoroughly sick of all the poser behavior. Related to that, I'm convinced that a lot of people's idea of cyberpunk pre-2077 came from what they *thought* Blade Runner is about (without having actually seen either movie), which seems to be all of the superficial aesthetic stuff. I've seen people say Akira and GitS aren't cyberpunk for arbitrary reasons, or that the game Ruiner isn't cyberpunk because it uses the color red instead of cyan and magenta.
>>98652835It's long been suspected some of Red's writers lurk these threads. J.C Denton reaction spammer uses alot of the same language and cadence as the guy who writes the bulk of Red's content these days.In all likelihood Anon is probably just some autist who got banned from Discord/Reddit though.
>>98650762>"Eeeeerrrrmmmm ackchyually I crunched the numbers and subdermal armor has the same SP as a LAJ so there's no po--"Pic related, nerd. The point is that I can now wear whatever the fuck I want while having the SP of a LAJ.
>>98656202>>98656243Ready Player One is peak Cyberpunk
>>98656302Long suspected? I'm flattered you give my presence so much thought, but why Discord and Reddit? I don't go there to talk about Cyberpunk, I come here you fucking tourist.As funny as it is to be called J Gray and shit like that when I do basic back-of-the-napkin math, you could of course run some numbers yourself or play the fucking game and I wouldn't have to be coming in here and cleaning up your messes.Which by the way, it is in a way vilifying to hear weirdly specific bitching like this; it confirms to me what I've always suspected: most of the time when I have to deal with retard takes for the game, it's not a procession of newbies or imbecile players, it's you back again for another sound thrashing.It'd be nice if RTal would send me a check for wrangling autists, but alas I don't want the job if they're offering it.By the way, it's just the one JC Denton pic; I don't even have two of those. If it seems like spamming to you, it's only because every time I have to pick out the stupidest take in the argument it just so happens to be yours.
>>98655748>people need to stop being pussies about buying cool cyberarms with machine guns, because they're fun.I've never asked them, but I might check sometime; because I can't comprehend why someone wouldn't want to have an arm mounted machine gun for their character. Like, come on, we've been dreaming about this since we were 8. Pull the figurative and literal trigger, guys. Maybe it turns out all of us bitching about it are Europeans, and eurosolos are just spiritually resistant to cyberware. Add more bioware to the game and suddenly they're roiding out. I might try that. Maybe the real transhumanist exploration was happening in our real lives.>>98656335Soul destroying comment. Excellent work.
>>98656322That excerpt is telling you that LAJ is stylish tho.
>>98656302Stawski got banned on reddit, though ONIONS thrower has noticeably different mannerisms
>>98656348Reddit spacing lmao.
>>98656750But you can't wear LAJ when you're wearing LAJ, and wearing a Kevlar LAJ makes you a fucking poser, so you need subdermal armor.
>>98656243I’ve seen it argued that a critical (required) facet of cyberpunk is direct interface between man and machine/computer/network and that because of this the original movie Blade Runner actually isn’t “true” cyberpunk as its Replicant androids seem to be something more like constructed flesh human beings that are only interacted with through psychological examination. In that sense Blade Runner would serve as nothing more than an aesthetic and atmospheric inspiration for cyberpunk genre. A similar argument could probably be made against Akira where, despite the overt future punk atmosphere, the only real “cyber” link is in Tetsuo using psychic power to build steal appendages.
>>98656750No, reading comprehension kun, it's just saying that having a LAJ is a serious consideration.
>>98656951Are you having a stroke?>>98657106Because it's practical and stylish
>>98657053yes I've seen it argued too and that argument is fucktardedwhat's needed is a sense of technological proficiency and all the technobabble about genetics between Roy and Tyrell achieves that sufficiently well
>>98656243Excuse you, I got my idea of what Cyberpunk is from Batman Beyond and Spider-Man 2099 when I was five.
>>98658323based
>>98656750Depends on where you are. Fashion is context sensitive depending on the cultures and sensibilities of where you are, what's considered fashionable on Hollywood Boulevard may not be considered fashionable on the streets of Oakland. Plus, while style is important, sometimes it's also important for your style to be discrete. There's a reason there are LAJ armors disguised as normal fashionwear.
>>98656243>I've seen people say Akira and GitS aren't cyberpunk for arbitrary reasonshorrible>the game Ruiner isn't cyberpunk because it uses the color red instead of cyan and magenta.extremely horrible>>98657053Not only is a machine gun arm cool, it is also practical. Let's say I'm an autofire boy. I got an assault rifle in my hands and an SMG in my arm. I can autofire from the rifle's ideal medium range, and if the enemies try to bumrush me, I can freely switch to my SMG arm and autofire them from its ideal range instead. If we include Solo of Fortun 2045, I can have a second SMG in my other arm that's tuned for the machine pistol range, so if the enemies do successfully rush me to meet me in melee range, I can still autofire them in my machine pistol's ideal range. I can spray bullets at everyone at any range with minimal difficulty without hampering my action economy whatsoever because cyberweapons can be drawn and stowed at any time for free. And I will have so many bullets loaded that I may not even have to reload during combat because if one gun runs dry, I can just switch to another. I am shooting gonks for ten turns straight without inconvenience.
>>98658721second part meant to reply to >>98656501
>>98658721You can also just... Keep two SMGs on your person, which are entirely concealable for 100eb each, with 30 rounds between both for a fraction of the price of getting two cyber-arms, pop-up guns, then the SMGs. And drawing and stowing any weapon isn't an action in RED to begin with, RAW. Even if they were two Heavy SMGs, with drum magazines, it's cheaper to pay for a Tech to upgrade them for concealability in the long run. As you save your limited Humanity pool.Now if I could get an LMG built into my arm, but You need BOD 11+ To install it, that'd be cool.
>>98659018>And drawing and stowing any weapon isn't an action in RED to begin with, RAW.Stowing a weapon is an Action.
>>98658721>I can autofire from the rifle's ideal medium range, and if the enemies try to bumrush me, I can freely switch to my SMG arm and autofire them from its ideal range instead.You can also just move and continue using your rifle.
>>98659264Sure, if it's safe to move, and there's cover somewhere else I can move to so I'm not running out into the open just to keep using my rifle. Maybe there won't be, in which case I'd rather stay where I am.
>>98659732Just suppress the enemy away from you.
>>98658721It's probably better to invest in Smartgun and Drum on a single EQ HSMG (with Cyclic Internals (SMG 4) if SOF is allowed) at first; getting a +2 to hit makes your range DVs effectively 18/15/18/23, whereas the 3-gun setup's DVs are 17/17/17/20. Depends somewhat on your MOVE and your campaign's map sizes, but that +2 raises your odds of hitting 8d6 from 40% to 60% at the sweet spot range, assuming Autofire 14. With a high enough eddie budget (and more ranks of Autofire from IP), sure, do whatever. I'd focus on the AR first though since as others have mentioned you'll usually be able to move 3 squares if someone engages in melee.>>98659018>Even if they were two Heavy SMGs, with drum magazines, it's cheaper to pay for a Tech to upgrade them for concealability in the long run. As you save your limited Humanity pool.The concealability TUp still requires a skill check; a Popup works automatically. The HL can mostly be restored with therapy. (I'd still avoid multiple Popups if not flush with cash, personally, but I think having one is fine.)
How is one ever supposed to play a social character if they're a full borg? Even the gemeni which is the most human of the bunch has such a hung humanity pricetag attached to it
>>98652973Cyberware that actually increases stats would be nice, it's strange that there's not a single piece of cyberware, I.e Cyberlegs that give you a +1 to MOV, is just strange to me. The fact the only way for a bonus to movement is Power armor is weird. (And no, Skate feet doesn't count). >>98653196They sort of did that with David's Sande; I think the CEMK should've had the Apogee or something.
>>98660163Yes the hypothetical triple gun set-up is something only an experienced well-to-do edgerunner could afford. But I do think that if they pulled it off, it would be fun.>>98660163Do you mean in 2020? In RED, the Gemini FBC only has a humanity cost of 14, or a 4d6 roll. If you start with 8 EMP that knocks you down to 6 EMP but that's still enough to have decent Human Perception and Conversation skills.>>98660164My guess is the reason there's no STAT boosting cyberware is because it would be a no-brainer to get every time. It's bad enough that linear frames are "meta", more options that do the same would fall into the same box. Why would you ever choose anything over a permanent boost to a STAT and every skill attached to it?
>>98660289forgetting the Biosystem has a separate HL cost but that's still recoverable with therapy, and if you can afford an FBC you can afford some therapy
>>98660289Yeah 2020, I guess I'll need to read the RED borg book I had no idea going full chrome was so economical
>>98660475Gemini is one of the cheapest FBCs with very low Humanity Loss in RED. It's still in the 10,000eb range and it barely has any special chrome besides the body but it's more accessible than most other models.
>>98659732Unless you're fighting in a tiny box, this shouldn't be an issue. Red doesn't have any opportunity attacks or overwatch or anything.
Planning to do a murder mystery. When are rolls needed without going overboard? And when they get all the clues on the climax, should the roll give them the answer or nudge towards it?
>>98661924This is the 10% failure chance most of the time system so go look up that RPG article on the three clue rule and how you shouldn't roll for core clues.
>>98661924>When are rolls needed without going overboard?Rolls are for either finding clues or examining clues to gain more understanding of them so they become more useful.>should the roll give them the answer or nudge towards it?Nudge them until the players prove too dumb to figure it out then just give it to them.If you don't trust your players' intelligence you can use the investigation mechanics supplement that gives the mystery a health bar.
>>98660289>My guess is the reason there's no STAT boosting cyberware is because it would be a no-brainer to get every time.That's not necessarily a bad thing. Giving the players more ways to build their characters and make them stronger is better than having a single dev ordained min max build you have to go for every time. Increasing stats is already a thing in the game through drugs, so I don't see why stat boosting Cyberware can't be a thing. Just make it so it replaces the drugs rather than stacking with them.>>98660164>They sort of did that with David's Sande; I think the CEMK should've had the Apogee or something.But that's designed to not be accessible to players. It also just straight up gives you an extra action every turn at the cost of humanity, rather than an extra action that can only be used once every couple of hours like an Action Surge.
>>98621096Batou. It's batou. The real Major is in his basement. But as per GitS canon, she's there because she wants to be and will Worf Batou at some point when she's 'rescued', followed by whatever the fuck was going on in volume 2 with the psychic stuff.
>>98660163In 2020 you fucking don't play a borg. it's that simple.That's not a problem in Red, because most social skills run off Cool instead. All that runs of Humanity in red is Conversation and Human perception. So if you wanna play the empathetic person who talks to everyone and always sees themselves on somebody else's shoes in the dreary and misserable setting of Cyberpunk, then it's still a problem. But everything else? bribing, negotiating, trading, acting, performance, etc. all run off Cool, and it's more than plenty to get everything done.
>>98664146>Increasing stats is already a thing in the game through drugs, so I don't see why stat boosting Cyberware can't be a thing.Drugs are temporary and risk downsides. And there's only REF, INT, and COOL boosting drugs.
Thinking about running a Cop campaign in RED, should it follow Merc level play or standard RED play? I do want the Players to actually be funded by the NCPD; With an operational budget for each job. But the Day-to-day struggle of being underpaid cops is appealing.
>>98665186>Drugs are temporary and risk downsides. And there's only REF, INT, and COOL boosting drugs.Yes so Cyberware would trade the risks and downsides for a bigger upfront cost in both Eddies and Humanity. The Pain Editor replaces Black Lace, so there's precedent in the game already.
>>98665786>Thinking about running a Cop campaign in RED, should it follow Merc level play or standard RED play?"Merc Level" is just mid-late game of a normal campaign.
>>98666028True, I meant more so the entire Operational budget, and increased wages, straight out of the jump. Another thing I've been wondering is, should I give them a couple ranks in Lawman (I.e two, so they each have a 20% chance of calling in back-up without being dedicated NPC summoners.) And bringing the theming of the campaign together.
>>98666061Corebook payouts are kinda stingy so I'd say go for it if you want higher power scaling in your game. Also giving them free levels in Authority isn't a bad idea. Maybe have it scale with something like rep?
>>98656243I think the issue might just be these people prefer certain style of cyberpunk but they can't articulate that very well. So to them stuff that doesn't look like [insert specific game/movie here] isn't "real cyberpunk" because they don't like how it looks/feels.This is all purely an assumption but the assumption is the mother of all fuck ups so I wouldn't put much weight on it.
>>98655695>>98655748>>98655804I think the big issue here becomes that cyberpsychosis basically started off as as gameplay mechanic first and a narrative tool later. Like the main reason why Humanity stat exists is so players can't just shove themselves full of chrome without the game becoming unbalanced shit show.But it is done in kind of clunky/unrealistic way, at least people who play feel that way.Especially when you look at the real world now where people do have prosthetics, even mechanical and electrical ones, ie. cybernetics, and these people are just fine. (Actually where does a "prosthetic" end and a "cybernetic" begin, specially if both are meant to be just regular arms?)So it becomes a big disconnect with the players who hae seen how this stuff works IRL and then playing/watching a scifi setting where you getting an artificial arm can make you go coo coo.>character gets into an accident>lose their arm, get a prosthetic>few years down the line>welcome 7 o'clock news: to day at 4pm in there's a shootout with the NCPD police and a suspected cyberpsychosis incident in Santo Domingo>before opening fire on the police it is saoid that the suspect yelled "AAAAAIIIIIIEEEEEEE Ted Kazynski help me! I'm gonna shoot up a Walmart!"And this feels weird and artificial (heh)And I can see why people think cybernetics are kinda lame when it is seemingly downsides with barely with any upsides.Like if you can just buy a cheap camera to record stuff for the story, why install one in your eye that's most likely more expensive but also costs Humanity which you can't recover.So no wonder some of these players just don't care about cybernetics.
>>98666130I don't think anyone can really define what Cyberpunk is. It's a loose set of themes and aesthetics rather than a strict genre.Kinda like Film Noir.
>>98666244Film Noir is a very well-defined genre, pal.It's hard-boiled Crime drama with horror aesthetics and gothic themes, and even that isn't getting into the nitty-gritty of all the mandatory tropes. Noir is incredibly formulaic.So it's a bad comparison, but even then, Cyberpunk isn't that hard to define even in a very broad sense, all you have to do is figure out what it does that you don't find in other genres of scifi.cynical approach to technological progress + dysfunctionnal society in a constant state of turmoil + technological hyper-literacyAnd you could also add shock value on top of that. Persons certainly seemed to think it matters.That's a pretty broad definition that encompasses everything from Rubber's Lover to Batman Beyond, but it isn't "loose", it has boundaries.
>>98666290>Film Noir is a very well-defined genre, pal.Ok define it.>So it's a bad comparison, but even then, Cyberpunk isn't that hard to define even in a very broad sense, all you have to do is figure out what it does that you don't find in other genres of scifi.Then why do people constantly argue about what is and isn't Cyberpunk if it's so obvious?
>>98666337>Ok define it.Just did. I could also add that it usually takes the form of a morality tale with an internal monologue and a theme of ubiquitous temptation but that's pretty much contained within "hard-boiled" and "gothic">Then why do people constantly argue about what is and isn't Cyberpunk if it's so obvious?Because people are fucking retarded
>>98666353You gave a pretty broad and loose definition of Noir, so my point stills stands. There's no definitive description of Noir as a subgenre and the same goes for Cyberpunk. People will argue about what is Noir and Cyberpunk till the end of time because what is "Noir" and "Cyberpunk" is incredibly subjective and usually boils down to aesthetics to alot of people.Really the act of trying to box everything into strict genres is just people having an autistic need to categorize everything they see, rather than letting media stand on it's own merits. Ready Player One fits 3 out of the 4 criteria you describe, probably would fit all 4 if it wasn't written by a complete hack, but people get offended when you call it Cyberpunk.
>>98666414I don't give a fuck about what "a lot of people" think. "a lot of people" think in terms of archetypes, not in terms of boundaries.They have an idealized mental image of what a genre should aspire to and no set limit for how far you can stray from that ideal, which is made of half-remembered clichés and impressions. They don't try to come up with rules that account for as many works as possible and exclude others, and they certainly don't test those rules with limit-cases. Rules are useful to facilitate communication and aptly describe authorial intent. Instead "a lot of people" go with vibes. Aesthetics as you call it.THAT is where subjectivity and imprecision comes from. It's a poetic approach, not an analytical approach.>You gave a pretty broad and loose definition of Noir, so my point stills stands.I gave a broad definition, not a loose definition. A loose definition would be >Noir CAN have gothic horror tropes, SOMETIMES it has SOME hard-boiled tropes. MAYBE there CAN be SOMETHING LIKE a moral dilemma OR some crime drama. You know, KINDA LIKE Casablanca.>Ready Player One fits 3 out of the 4 criteria you describe, probably would fit all 4 if it wasn't written by a complete hackI'm not opposed to calling Ready Player One cyberpunk. If someone is opposed to it, he'll have to come up with a decent argument.
>>98666228It's been stated over and over again that in Cyberpunk, cyberware that's restorative doesn't incur humanity loss. If you're an amputee and replace your lost arm with a cyber one, that's totally fine. It's once you start grafting chainsaws to it that you begin to decline mentally.
>>98655947No, but the fact that you took the -12 to begin with means it had a negative impact on you, full stop.
>>98652127One of my players wanted to be able to use snipers in more encounters, so he rolled a character that invested heavily into cyber leg modifications, which he then used to inform his character's identity. We brainstormed that he was a roller derby guy, and in this setting, treated it like a combination of traditional roller derby and death race. And then he sorta built everything from there.Point being, you're already starting from a mechanic you want to use. So you can look at all the supplemental mechanics you plan on using to support that, and let that inspire you. Maybe you don't go into the cyber leg territory, maybe you want grappling hooks. Maybe your guy worked search and rescue for a time, repelling into dangerous areas, and this informs maybe a stronger sense of professionalism than other edgerunners. Start building outward like that.
>>98666414>Ready Player One fits 3 out of the 4 criteria you describeI don't know why you say this like it's a "gotcha." Shitty media exists within all genres.
>>98666473So what your saying is you don't know what Cyberpunk is aside from your own subjective criteria which you'll pretend is objective?I'm just sick of people arguing about what "is" and "isn't" Cyberpunk. It doesn't fucking matter. Also not to argue semantics but broad and loose and similar words with similar meanings and I was using both to add emphasis.
>>98666130So, it all comes down to people being limited in their thinking, a.k.a., being retarded? I can get behind that.
>>98666911I think it's more just genre snobbery.
>>98666675Well the reverse is something like GitS (atleast the original movie) doesn't meet or only partially meets anon's criteria, but many would consider than a foundational genre classic.
>>98667235It meets all my criteria, actually. 1- It shows you technological progress can fuck with people's minds and doesn't make your life more fulfilling2- It shows you Japan in the middle of a refugee crisis, various government agencies at each other's throats, with hints that humanity might go extinct in the not-too-distant future.3- it has a bunch of technobabble4- it has gore and tits aplentyI have no idea what led you to think it doesn't meet all 4 criteria.(Doesn't really matter, though, Oshii said he wasn't actively trying to make a cyberpunk film)
>>98666837No, what I'm saying is I at least tried to be objective, instead of giving up and getting butthurt at people who don't.If you're sick of arguing, then feel free to adopt my definition instead of arguing some more.>Also not to argue semantics but broad and loose and similar words with similar meanings and I was using both to add emphasis.Yes that's why I reminded you that there's a distinction, to make sure you didn't conflate those terms in the future.You know, you can just agree with me, since it all seems to be the same to you.That way you won't have to argue that we should stop arguing.You won't have to claim that it's objectively impossible to be objective.You won't have to spell out what you meant in order to prove that semantics don't matter.
>>98667294Okay whatever anon you win, i'll take the L and shut up. Still think clearly defining Cyberpunk is sort of a fools errand.
>>98667392I think it's useful to coordinate work on a project and advertise it to the public
>>98667399It's okay I've enjoyed this chat and don't mind being proven wrong even I don't completely agree with every point you've made.btw I noticed you take a more theme based approach to defining Cyberpunk, when I think aesthetics (the look of the world, neon lights and urban hellscape) are an important consideration. Alot of Post Apoc fiction has alot of overlap with Cyberpunk thematically, but not necessarily aesthetically and most people would consider them different genres.
>>98666537But anon people do this in real lifehttps://youtu.be/Lrpg820LuGE?si=0meix_BcD5NoYiuV
>>98667468I agree that they're important, for two distinct reasons1- They convey the themes I mentioned very efficiently. Many variations have been tried, but stereotypical cyberpunk aesthetics just work perfectly. And sometimes, all you have to work with is aesthetics. In music or character design, for example.2- They're a strong statement of authorial intent. The more stereotypical the aesthetics are, the more the author wants to signal his allegiance to the Cyberpunk movement, which means we're expected to judge it by the standards of Cyberpunk, and evaluate how well it explores those themes.
>>98664784>In 2020 you fucking don't play a borg. it's that simple.
Was there some implant that connected to a biomonitor and sent a call to trauma team if it detected the user was injured? I swear I remember seeing something like that once in a game but i can't find it in the books
>>98666537That logic doesn't even make sense for all Cyberware that goes against baseline humanity. There's a difference between getting a Cybernetic eye with a Camera pre-installed, and putting an SMG in your forearm, but there only 1d6 humanity difference. The fact that getting Muscle and bone lace (not even when you're going beyond Human levels is strength) is more humanity loss than putting an entire Katana in your forearm also doesn't track.
>>98668326You're not wrong, but that's a different issue entirely, and often has more to do with game balance.
>>98668405Yeah, I understand that; Muscle and Bone lace messes with your stats, +2 to BOD, which gives more HP, and increases Unarmed damage, which is more meaningful than a cheap way to get a concealed Medium or heavy melee weapon.But one is clearly more psycho than the other; Wouldn't the easy balance just be making Muscle and bone lace cost more? Like 2,000 eb a installation? I can see grafting snyth-muscle, and metal plates to someone's entire muscular and skeletal system is more labor intensive than just cutting their arm off, and installing a robot one. But one should clearly have far more humanity cost than the other.
>>98667721If you're so desperate to play a cybered up character whose also the Face, then your only option is to trade in your chooms for omaes, and start playing Shadowrun.Where they not only have no trouble whatsoever with a Face being cybered up, they straight up make cyberparts for it, like Tailored Pheromones, Voice Modulators, Mnemonic Enhancers, etc.
>>98669652Too bad that nobody plays shadowrun
>>98668283It's a default function of Biomonitors and Agents in RED.>Registering your Trauma Team Card on an Agent with a linked Biomonitor will allow your Agent to call the Trauma Team on your behalf during a firefight without you needing to take an Action to do so when you have HP less than your BODY or whenever you receive a Critical Injury that dismembers a body part. >Otherwise, calling the Trauma Team is an Action, and can be done whenever you are injured.(Page 224)
>>98670098Must have been a 2002 thing
>>98670161*2020
>>98666244>>98666975Gatekeeping over what is and isn't punk is about as punk as it gets.
>>98668893The balance to GMBL is that it's a 1,000eb implant and thus can only be sourced by Fixer. Which means it's actually 1,100eb+ to anyone NOT the Fixer (unless they're a carebear - that 10% Haggle applies to SELLING, too).That can be further tweaked by GMs applying Night Market scarcity rules to make Fixers less of an auto-access: I'm preferential to "Fixers can influence the Night Market whats-on-the-shelves roll" on the Night Market randomizer table.
>>98664784It's not just that social skills run on COOL; an FBC will very likely have better EMP than any chromed-up meat counterpart.A barebones FBC only suffers Humanity Depression from the Biosystem (-4 borgware), and gets all the foundational cyberware for free. The pregen character packages for Face-oriented roles (Rockerboy, Media, Exec, Fixer) all have at least one foundational cyberware (-2), which means the FBC is really only 2 max humanity behind to start... and if the meatbags want to diversify at ALL (get a cyberarm, a neural link, a cybereye, etc), then their humanity is as bad as an FBC's. FBCs are only at a disadvantage compared to zero-chrome characters, which is a pretty high bar.
>>98563633Sorry for asking, but I've got to be sure. Is this thread only dedicated to R.Talsorian's Cyberpunk TTRPGs or are other games like Shadowrun or The Sprawl welcome here? I know that Shadowrun used to have generals on /tg/ but they aren't a thing anymore it seems.
>>98668283Bodyweight autoinjector can be set to inject a drug when:>Damage taken>Commanded to (not sure if that is an action)>Severely Wounded state is obtained (ie, you've just dropped to half HP).No brainer move would be to tech upgrade it to either work without an action (if it does) or to accept pharmaceuticals (by all logic still ought to be reloaded by a medtech) Another answer would be that one heuristic health monitor thingy from black chrome that lets you see your HP (or to be displayed so another character can see it), its niche, and honestly depends on the way your crew roleplays.>Just realised Im not answering your question, but a related one.Nah, Im posting anyway.
>>98670808OP used to contain a welcome to other cyberpunk rpgs but someone took it out, as far as I am concerned that person was a fag. Go right ahead, just don't expect a roaring response.
>>98670808What's 'The Sprawl'?
>>98672723A generic cyberpunk setting using PbtA. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/9458/ardens-ludere/category/51252/the-sprawl
>>98673323>PbtAinto the trash it goes
