Protect and serve edition >Cyberpunk 2020 vs. Cyberpunk RED?Cyberpunk 2020 is the second edition of the Cyberpunk TTRPG by R. Talsorian Games, set in a (then) future inspired by film noir and the dark science fiction films and books of the late 20th century. It focuses on simulationist gameplay and lethal near-future combat.Cyberpunk RED is the latest edition of the Cyberpunk TTRPG, set after the devastating Fourth Corporate War. It focuses on more balanced, streamlined gameplay and is currently supported by R. Talsorian Games.>Resources for RED:https://datapool2045.net/>RED has free DLC and extra content, including character sheets: https://rtalsoriangames.com/downloadable-content/>RED Easy Mode is available for FREE: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/409912/cyberpunk-red-easy-mode>Previous thread: >>98427977>Thread question:Have you ever ran an NCPD game?
>>98563633I like RED. It's a good game for drinking beer and fucking around. Max out some skills at cc and do crazy shit like swinging between buildings spiderman style with two grappling hook hands or jump a motorcycle on to the back of a tank and drop C9 charges up its ass.>Have you ever ran an NCPD game?Nope but I was in a trauma team one. We almost got fired because the client flew out the side of the AV as we were taking off after a rocket hit one of our engines. Three failed athletics rolls to catch him and yeah he was splattered on the freeway.
>>98563633Can you even play PD? Seems anti-punk.
>>98564033lawman is a class in the game so yes, you absolutely can. a lot of cyberpunk's most common enemies are gang members.
>>98564060>whole party of corrupt criminal copsI guess points for realism.
>>98564060Hell, night city vice can be a decent option. There was a whole book on it for 2020 for running a campaign, however it had problems with the fact everyone’s one class.
>>98565035That's unfortunately the problem with some themed games, desu
>>98562551>>98562982Good posters full of love and kindness in their heart, intelligent, well-rounded, moisturised, flourishing. Beacons for the lesser sniper posters to look up to.>>98563197RAW yes your interpretation is correct, but you'd be a fag to do it, and your GM would be a fag to allow it. Autism speaks, and now it needs to be quiet and listen. If you had a tool and chose not to use it you are metagaming and ruleslawyering, there is no in-universe reason for why your character would choose to try to toss a salad without salad tongs if they had a pair of salad tong on their belt. Nor would there be a sensible reason for why a character who has failed to toss the salad would recruit others to toss the salad in their place, or spend four times the time to really thoroughly toss that salad unless there was an imminent and pressing need for a salad that was tossed. Stop trying to find gaps in the ruleset to exploit, you're ruining the game for yourself and others.>If you do thing you can't do thing again, rolls are final>If there is a meaningful change in the conditions, or you meaningfully inconvenience yourself to accomplish the goal, you can get a second roll
>>98564033Well, part of Punk is inevitably how prone punks are to sell out/be hypocrites. Even Johnny Silverhand, The Punk's Punk(tm), was totally fine working with the corps when it was convenient and had a good paycheck.That aside, I could see a couple entry points:> be NCPD thugs> not most corrupt but not snitching to IA either> get dragged into Edgerunning due to blackmail, wrong place wrong time, or their Captain ordered it off the books> be streetrats> want to join a gang with a life expectancy greater than 1 month> NCPD> do streetrat shit while trying not to get busted from the force> be One Good Cop> actually trying to Protect and Serve> know NCPD ain't doing shit> moonlight as edgerunner as a way to go after gangs/targets the NCPD is bribed to avoid>>98565035DGD has a good example that not all cops are the Lawman role: Detective Escobar is a Media.So, you could have a Fixer or Tech Quartermaster. EMT is gonna be a Medtech. Solos are Solos, obviously.
>>98563633Afternoon anons!I want to make some cyberpunk terrain.I figured cargo crate high tech ghettos might be nice.I found that wargames Atlantic’s mini factory sells stls of pic related.https://www.myminifactory.com/it/object/3d-print-death-fields-container-upgrades-779376It is meant to be an addition to their hard plastic crates but hopefully will be fine on its own or be fine with other free crate stls.Has anybody printed this? Or used it with free cargo shipping crate stls? Maybe it can used on its own?Also what other terrain stuff should I look for to make cyberpunk wargame terrain?Also how good is the em4 reprinted combat zone game?Figured this would be best place to ask.
>>98565398Solos are C-SWAT/Max-Tac.
>>98562608>>98562649>Like why bother with a weapon that's only good at point blank range when Melee options exist and are typically stronger?Because shotguns are a good tool for a player who has invested into Shoulder Arms as opposed to melee. Again, having weapons that are situational useful isn't bad design.Moreover, I don't know how either of these would be considered a "noob trap." Players have access to the range tables, the Shoulder Arms skill is useful for firing a variety of weapons, and the player generally plan out their own jobs around their skillset. I guess if one of your players expected to be able to run around and exclusively use a sniper every single combat, including in CQC environments, then maybe you could say that, but I don't know if that's a fault of the system at that point.
>>98565311The tool use retry was not something I was seriously suggesting, hence "poorly thought out;" I assume "better tool" is included under the assumption you have to go out and get the tool somewhere/somehow, perhaps through additional skill checks or an entire job.However, taking extra time or using a complementary skill check to get a retry is not a "gap in the rules" so much as an explicit option the game leaves for open for players, both in the rules and in the ways the writers have talked about the game outside the books themselves. If you're trying to lockpick a door or jury-rig a vehicle, it's perfectly sensible to say "I did it quickly and failed, let me try again more carefully" or "I can't figure this out, I'm going to see if a crew member has insight on the problem before I try again."
>>98565651There are two NCPD Precinct 1 NPCs who are Solos in DGD. MAXTAC and C-SWAT might be Solo 4+ guys, but you could probably have some regular SWAT at Solo 2-3. But again, point is "Cop =/= Lawman Role." > Fixer: Quartermaster, Vice Unit (you're gonna know people!), Undercover Cop> Tech: Quartermaster, IT Guy, Gun Nut with a Badge> Solo: Gun Nut with a Badge, TAC team, > Media: Detectives and investigators> Exec: Sergeant/Captain, Internal Affairs agent, Desk Jockey> Netrunner: Cybercrime Specialist> Nomad: Motorpool (family access = Motorpool)> Rockerboy: Public Affairs Cop, "Cops" bodycam streamer
>>98483027Hey, in case you're still lurking, just wanted to let you know I appreciate your work and you sharing it. Never had any idea you visited these generals since I first picked up this material in a re-post, but we've been using it at my table and having fun with it.
>>98565676I'll say this, I don't like what they did to shotguns, as shotguns in the 2020 time were a great option for low end. need a long gun that is decent, but low cost? basic bitch pump gun, gets you something that does decent damage, and can be a ok rifle with slugs. red made shotguns into a little bit of a gimmick, with buckshot being kinda dumbly done. I would Imagine the shotgun gaining some foothold even moreso in the era of red, due to its ease of reloading, and simple construction.
>>98566272I don't mind the buckshot gimmick much. It helps with a crowd control fantasy and gives it a niche, as is, but it could probably be tweaked. A DV13 to hit isn't awful, but feels like a complete waste since you hit absolutely no one, and letting enemies still bullet dodge is even worse.You could still use slugs, but I think the DVs for them could be better. Similar to what you said, as a cheaper rifle.
>>98564033Half of the most Cyberpunk media the Protagonists are cops.Ghost in the shell, RoboCop, Blade runner, etc? Cops are as common a noir protagonist as crooks are.
>>98566677The problem with buckshot is that there's no situation where using it is better than just throwing a grenade (or a molotov cocktail, if you need something cheaper).
>>98568124Yeah but it's entire purpose is that it's dirt cheap. It's one 1eb per 3d6 AOE. Grenades are somewhat costly (50-100 eb depending on how you acquired them.) I think dropping the damage an entire 2d6 is what makes Buckshot mediocre; Though I wonder if this is supposed to represent Buckshot having poor penetrating power. The low critical chance doesn't really fulfill the fantasy of Buckshot. If all shotguns did 4d6 damage while loaded with shells instead of a couple exotics, I think the feature wouldn't be half bad.
>>98568124>no situation where buckshot is better than a grenadeDid you know that for the low, low price of 100eb, ANY character gets access to a version of the Lawman's Backup ability? Just toss a grenade and a squad of cops will be on scene lickety split!And I can't think of ANY downsides to tossing around fireballs inside of enclosed spaces - after all, it's not like arson is a CAPITAL OFFENSE in Night City...But seriously, folks are way too lenient in having no consequences for breaking out heavy ordinance and armor.
>>98568289If you wanted to represent the low penetrating power, you could have it roll 2d6 twice instead of 4d6. It's a little convoluted but each damage roll would theoretically get eaten by armor, while still doing the same average damage to unarmored targets.
Is there anything in media akin to the popup shield cyberware? I need character and/or reference pics for an encounter I have planned
>>98568403You can fire off dozens of rounds in seconds, but once a grenade goes off that's when the cops are called. We're technically lax about everything.
>>98565676>Because shotguns are a good tool for a player who has invested into Shoulder Arms as opposed to melee. Again, having weapons that are situational useful isn't bad design.Yes, but think of it this way. Shotguns are just worse Assault Rifles and if the player really needs something for Close Quarters than a Shotgun is just a worse option compared to Melee, Martial Arts and even Hand Guns. There's very little reason to invest in them when an AR is the same price and not terrible at close range either. Red has no opportunity attacks or anything to prevent people from moving into the 17-15 DV Range if you Base is low enough you can't hit a 20 reliably. Shotgun Shells should give Shotguns a niche, but they're just awful in general due to the low damage and small aoe/short range. >I guess if one of your players expected to be able to run around and exclusively use a sniper every single combat, including in CQC environments, then maybe you could say that, but I don't know if that's a fault of the system at that point.Sure, once a player learns Sniper's are useless they'll get a new weapon, but the first encounter where they pull out their rifle and realize they can't fucking hit anything is really shitty. I really don't see why they made Sniper DVs so high in the first place when they're already balanced out by being pricey and having low ammo. Giving things specializations doesn't mean you have to make something useless outside that specialized area.
>>98569159They're not useless outside of that specialty. At 51-100 m/yds they shoot just as easy as an Assault Rifle; meaning building to building, vehicle combat, ambushes in the desert, etc, they perform just as well; but don't then fall off when you get past that point.The only thing this conversation has convinced me is useless is you. You're completely incapable of putting aside your preconceived notions and are simply wasting everyone's time regurgitating the same argument. If it sucks so bad, use something else.
>>98569198>They're not useless outside of that specialty. At 51-100 m/yds they shoot just as easy as an Assault Rifle; meaning building to building, vehicle combat, ambushes in the desert, etc, they perform just as well; but don't then fall off when you get past that point.So, just use an AR? Atleast the DV won't shoot up if the enemy advances on you. 51+ meters is pretty big for combat map, so my point still stands that Snipers aren't great for normal combat encounters.
>>98564033I am the law
>>98569253Sniper rifles are gauged to be used typically at 300+ meters away, why did your bring a sniper rifle is you aren't doing overwatch or long distance shooting?
>>98569777>precision instrument designed to hit things far away can't also be used to hit things nearbyA rifle isn't like a mortar or something. It's just obtuse game logic that doesn't serve much of a purpose.
>>98569923>that doesn't serve much of a purpose.It serves exactly the purpose it's intended to: You are not going to use the sniper rifle in close quarters without eating hefty penalties. If you want to play a game where you can do that, play something else.Now fuck off and be retarded elsewhere.
Anon is what we call a "Dungeons and Drug Dealers" player.
>>98566109>You could have Regular SWAT at Solo 2-3.This implies Regular SWAT are mooks, and their combat skills are equivalent to random gangbangers. The difference between SWAT and C-SWAT is operational budget and cyberware.
>>98570285It does not; not any more than having a cop in the book that doesn't have a Lawman Rank meaning they're not a cop.You could have SWAT statblocks that are unhardened, as well as SWAT statblocks with no role abilities that are hardened. Depending on the precinct or org it actually makes sense for budget and veterancy to vary from team to team.
There was this one image I saw in this general of someone's cyberpunk character or oc maybe, but half of it was a regular looking person with a few panel lines iirc and the other half was them with all their cyberware extended which included limb extensions, blades or claws come out of the arms, and I'm pretty sure the legs became digitigrade. Anyone happen to know or have that image?pic is my best approximation of what i remember
>>98566109What exactly is a law man in an all-cop game? A dispatcher?
>>98570002>It serves exactly the purpose it's intended to: You are not going to use the sniper rifle in close quarters without eating hefty penalties.Yes, but is giving a 20-30 DV at close range is more than a "hefty" penalty. It makes it practically unusable in a normal combat encounter which is the whole crux of this argument.You've done nothing to defend your position of why this has to be the case other than call me names.
>>98575310Actually I was the one who called you names.
>>98575310>It makes it practically unusable in a normal combat encounter which is the whole crux of this argument.Yes. This is an intentional decision. This is what everybody has been telling you, it's not our fault you're too stupid to understand that.Now fuck off and play a system that does what you want.
>>98570049Cyberpunk is pretty similar to DnD. Atleast Red is.>heroic PCs who are far more powerful than an average person>huge focus on combat and loot>quest based structure for campaignsThe only real difference is it's progression is skill/gear based, has different combat mechanics and downtime adds an extra layer of things for a player/GM to do outside of quests.
>>98575337>Yes. This is an intentional decision.It is a bad one that is a detriment to play and you refuse to explain why it's good actually.
>>98575323It's okay anon, I thought I was arguing with one schizo not two.
>>98575364On the contrary anon, there is still only one schizo in this argument.
>>98566111Thanks this does mean a lot to me, this board is the place all of this stuff started, and then growed, and I'm sentimental about that. I'm not saying you guys made most of that (untrue) or even a substantial amount of (also untrue kek), but I did receive feedback and it was really a feel good thing to notice how it went from being called a retard and told to kill myself (gotta admit early ACPA doc was ass) through a that one post that kept me going and was for a time listed through acknowledgements, up to the praise and/or appreciation. There was a wisdom in these replies, opening my eyes to the fact I should make these free system additions for the joy of creation, not for external praise. And they were right. I wanted to cooperate with people here, but it ultimately proven to be difficult, mostly due to the lack of responses that actually added any merit (tg does not play their games, how original). So I started to keep it to myself and my players, after all this was, from the beginning made for them, and I had one player that actively collaborated with me taking about items, requesting new mechanics n shit. From my group, whom are my IRL friends, and whom I consider to be a very good players ttrpg wise, only a handfull of times anyone added any merit outside of that one dude mentioned earlier. I guess it's up to us, homebrewers, to go full autistic. I did enjoy the act of creation, if you dare to describe it so. Also I had no right to expect my group to go as far with the homebrew as I did.PS: I'm very curious what you meant by a re-post?
Maybe if a certain (likely disappointing) video game makes it easy to extract high rez views of its maps you can fix the sniper problem by making them the only viable weapon.
>>98575376I don't think anybody who browses this site is mentally sound desu
>>98575359So, anon. Even if Sniper rifles could hit targets at close range... Why would you bring one over a Assault rifle which has a magazine large enough that you'll never need to reload during a combat encounter unless you're using Autofire?And you'd never get into the position where having a Sniper rifle Would actually be useful. (You know being in a Sniper's nest) That would still make it a noob trap.
>>98566109That's just gave me an idea.Rockerboy re-flavored as a loose cannon cop, you're too popular to be fired, you're basically a folk hero at this point. Your escapades make you famous in and outside of the Department. And gives you authority beat cops don't have. Your name carries weight on the streets.
>>98577079They say the world isn’t ready for a rock-and-roll cop. No one *wants* their state monopoly on violence to be mixed with celebrity worship. They 'claim to know' it would be dangerous for detectives to rise to the ranks of demigods and have sexual encounters with barely-legal cover girls. It would be 'insane', they say. To all this you say: Fuck off and die. In a cool voice. You people have no idea how *good* these cops are gonna get. They're gonna crack twenty cases a day. In the future, cops will be like astrophysicists. Or prime ministers. Or prophets. And you’re the first one.
>>98567623Not only that, but a lot of Cyberpunk owes it's origins to Noir, and a staple of Noir is the jaded hardened detective who decides to go rogue in the name of justice in a cruel and uncaring city, usually for a woman, usually dying in the process. That's cyberpunk as fuck.
>>98565311>there is no in-universe reason for why your character would choose to try to toss a salad without salad tongs if they had a pair of salad tong on their belt.While I agree with you that metagaming is bullshit, there are perfectly valid reasons why someone would do something without all of the tools, specially on Cyberpunk where the book explicitly tells that the rule of cool applies. Pic related.So it would be perfectly normal for an arrogant little shit to go "look at this, this is easy! so easy I'm gonna do it with a hand tied behind my back" only to fail and start going "Shit shit shit shit shit" for the reroll.
>>98565830"Common sense writes better rules than I ever could." RED's "no rerolls unless you meaningfully change circumstances" isn't poorly thought out so much at it explicitly concedes that there is no possible way to hard-code which reattempts are reasonable and which are metagaming, and so it's up to the GM to arbitrate.There are times where not using all resources the first go makes sense, as you pointed out: asking a teammate for help after failing, or taking time after trying to rush it the first go. But those examples are wildly different than your original "I'll try with no tools, THEN use my techtool only, then techtool + techscanner, THEN all tools + time" case.On the flip side, there COULD BE a reasonable explanation for that kind of escalation, which is why the rule doesn't ban reattempts outright:>be thief trying to get into a locked room in a club>don't have tools on you because you're just scouting the place and security might've found them in a pat-down>unexpectedly get access to door unattended, try to break in using a toothpick and piece of metal>fail, abort mission for now>come back next day>sneak lockpicks and techtool past security>try again>fail>remember your choom has a techscanner built into his arm that could x-ray the mechanism>invite him to the club>power_of_friendship.gif>fail again>decide to just break into the club when it's empty so you can take all the time you need with the lockBottom line is that the escalation is reasonable, in-character, and actually comes with some meaningful setbacks (needing to abort and come again later, or needing to take bigger risks). When that escalation is being explicitly metagamed by a player, then it shouldn't be allowed, EVEN IF there could have been a plausible explanation for it.
>>98576695All sniper rifles now come with 30 rounds standard, automatic capacity, and are one-handed.
>>98566677I mind it some, if only for the fact it kinda reduces the utility. now if the buckshot abillity could be used as like a attachment ("adaptive choke" or something like that) it would be cool, but the thing with shotgun shot, would be it having a benefit of being slightly easier to both hit, and also have a better chance at critting. it's not going to be better damage wise then a rifle, but it's going to at least hit slightly more often, at the cost of better long range performance and significantly decreased capacity. the other benefit of shotguns in this idea would be that can unintentionally cause crits (the shot aiming for the chest also hits the left arm, and damages their long gun in their arms.) the shotgun isn't a melee substitute in this case, but a weapon that while less lethal then ar's, offers more utillity, especially when paired with significantly cheaper and wider options for shells, like flares (congrats, target is on fire and everyone can see in the low light fight), or beanbags (congrats, the target is stunned, get some cuffs or zipties on the retard and black bag him into the van.)
>>98577996Hell yeah
>>98577996you say that as a joke, but that's literally been for most of the GWOT era IRL a literal rifle category (minus onehandedness)
>>98576695>And you'd never get into the position where having a Sniper rifle Would actually be useful. (You know being in a Sniper's nest) That would still make it a noob trap.Yes and I'm saying remove that noob trap entirely by giving it more reasonable DVs at closer range while maintaining the ability to hit things at extreme ranges. It doesn't take away from the fact a Sniper is still a specialized tool for long range encounters, but the way they're currently set up flies in both the face of real world logic and good game logic.
>>98580673No I mean, it would still be a noob trap; because it would have no advantage over the assault rifle at close range, with the small magazine. And they would not have the ability to actually use the long range capability. (What outside of fighting enemy Snipers who are already 100+ meters away?) Still making it a waste of ebs. At this point it sounds like you want more of a DMR than a Sniper rifle. (Which is a thing as of Interface 5).
Alright I'm shutting the sniper rifle autism down. Buckle up we're going to do range-band autism instead:Weapons all have a few ranges where their DVs change. For the sake of convenience, we will call them "Ideal Ranges", "Good Ranges", "Falloff Ranges" and "Bad Ranges". Ideal Ranges for most weapons are DV 13, meaning that a starting character with moderate investment can hit 90% hit chance with them (REF 7 with 5 skill is a 12 base. You only tie it on a 1 which would have critical failed and rolled lower anyways). Good Ranges are DV 15 and require maximum starting character investment (REF 8 with 6 skill is 14 base, same critical fail math). Falloff Ranges are any DV from 16 to 20; they either require more investment to get to 90% or no longer can be pushed to 90% outside of Solo Ranks (16 and 17 can be achieved with Smart Links or EQ, 20 can be mostly mitigated but must have more skill investment to be dialed back to 90% again). Bad Ranges are anything with a DV past that which can take a lot of skill levels, high equipment costs and Solo ranks to overcome.So most weapons sandwich their Ideal Range with Good Ranges and have a single Falloff Range. Most characters will be using weapons within those ranges which are a relatively narrow band (as higher range bands are wider). Those who have been reading their books will notice that the Sniper Rifle has no Ideal Range; this is not by accident. Along with the Grenade Launcher and Rocket Launcher, the Sniper's best range bands are Good Ranges, but it has an extremely wide falloff range band going from everywhere from 25m/yds away to 800m/yds away. What this means is that with serious investment even a starting character can fire on targets in a donut of 775m/yds with better than even odds. With only a few levels of investment, the sniper rifle expands outwards its 90% zone and for the same investment it takes to be hitting out to 25 my/ds with a shotgun, you are easily hitting that massive strike zone.
>>98580818Though I agree with your overall point against sniper anon, I must nitpick. Red is not a "meets it beats it" system. DVs must be exceeded to in order for a check to succeed. So if you have base 13 and roll a 2 on a DV 15 check, you fail. You need a total roll of 16 or higher to pass a DV 15 check.
>>98580828That is correct, but REF 8 and 6 Skill is Base 14, so with full starting investment you reach the same 90% threshold on DVs of 15, because if you roll 1 you'll glitch anyways, and when you roll 2 you'll roll a 16.In either way, you score hits on 9 out of 10 results on the die; it's a question of whether or not you needed to fully max your starting stats to do it, or if you have a little wiggle room.
>>98580783It wouldn't be a noob trap, it'd just be a suboptimal option if close range DVs were lower. A Noob trap is something that is an active liability for a noob, like having Armor that cripples you, a role ability that takes longer to activate or a weapon that can't hit shit in a standard combat encounter.>>98580818>>98580828>>98580846All this sprouted from an argument last thread about doing away with Range DVs/Evasion Rolls in the first place and replacing them with a similar system to AC in DND. Range Bands are undermined by Evasion unless the player can't reasonably roll an Evasion higher than the Range DV so in my mind the only DVs that are relevant are those "bad" 25-30 range bands, otherwise it's just constant opposed rolls. For most weapons this is a non issue since it's 25-30 Range DV is well outside of where the player is expected to shoot, but Snipers flip the script by making their "bad" range the ones that players most often encounter, which is the whole problem. Yes you can min max the problem away, but it's the same issue with heavy armor, alot of effort for a mid ability when you could've just made them decent from the start and not sand bagged shit with ridiculous penalties.Like idk, I think the Range Band system is short sighted and designed with the assumption that players wouldn't all go for bullet dodging. Sniper Rifles being ass is just a symptom of the whole way Red handles rolling to hit being convoluted and messy.
>>98580915I think I have proven demonstrably that these 'bad' ranges are not hard to reach with relatively good probabilities for any character even casually committed to the concept and will further assert that you are neither the first white-room "designer" to come in, criticize a system working as intended and proposing a cure that is worse then the alleged disease.Players going all in for bullet dodging is also a symptom of 'buildcrafting' autism and is not realistically as much of a problem in real play, which is something many of you should do more before proposing OF ALL GODDAMN THINGS padding all the angles and edges of the system to be more like Dungeons and Dragons.
I saw some anons at one point mention how red apparently hates you cybering up, how true is this? I do not play cyberpunk so I'm just curious
>>98580953It depends. When you install cyberware, it lowers your humanity stat (permanently, unless you get it removed). If your humanity stat reaches zero your character becomes a cyberpsycho and becomes controlled by the GM. Your humanity is determined by your empathy score. If you started with a low empathy score, it does feel quite punishing to install any cyber. If your empathy was high you can install a lot of cyber before it ever becomes a problem.
>>98580915>A Noob trap is something that is an active liability for a noob,No, a noob trap is something that appears to be good when you are unfamiliar with the system but actually sucks. If it obviously sucks then it's just a shit option.
>>98580939Criticize me all you want about "white room" design or whatever but you're basically doing the same with your theory crafted scenarios. Making broad assumptions that everyone runs the game the same as you and assuming that the designers intent is law and can't possibly be flawed.I'm not saying an AC like system is the perfect fix for Red's problems, but multiple other games with gun combat use a similar system an IMO it's alot more elegant that either constant opposed roles or having to check one of like 20 charts on the odd chance the target can't dodge.
>>98581005The difference between me and you is you are insisting on how things ought to be based on how they demonstrably aren't-- I am demonstrating how they are as a counterexample and providing functional examples of the math.With the range bands being so central to RED's feel for gunplay I would suggest if you are against them to simply choose a different system to play. There is no way to divorce it from weapon and combat balance without gutting the entire identity.
>>98581151>There is no way to divorce it from weapon and combat balance without gutting the entire identity.Which is what I've been suggesting all along.
>>98581207I always thought DND should have had guns, range bands, ablative armour rules, maiming injuries, no classes, and have minimal to no supernatural elements. So I think you make a lot of sense.
>>98581590The difference is DnD tries to create fun tactical combat rules as opposed to whatever half assed bullshit Red is.
>>98577625>RED's "no rerolls unless you meaningfully change circumstances" isn't poorly thought out so much at it explicitly concedes that there is no possible way to hard-code which reattempts are reasonable and which are metagaming, and so it's up to the GM to arbitrate.That's not what RED does though; RED uses concrete mechanics and says "no rerolls unless the bonus is higher." It is in fact an attempt to hard-code something that should be squishier. If it said "no rerolls unless you meaningfully change circumstances" (or "make rolls matter", as I mention initially) and provided rough guidelines for the GM instead, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That's why I say it's poorly thought out.>There are times where not using all resources the first go makes sense, as you pointed out: asking a teammate for help after failing, or taking time after trying to rush it the first go. But those examples are wildly different than your original "I'll try with no tools, THEN use my techtool only, then techtool + techscanner, THEN all tools + time" case.Yes, that was the point of my case.
>>98580968This will always be jarring to me, to create an utter chromed-to-the-limit psycho you must start with a high EMP Mr. Rogers dude or else you don't have enough humanity for it.
>>98580915>Like idk, I think the Range Band system is short sighted and designed with the assumption that players wouldn't all go for bullet dodgingI've GM'd several games and I've quite literally only had two PCs that were bullet dodging with any regularity.
>>98580953Depends, all cyberpunk systems have rules in place to stop you from becoming Adam Smasher. Shadowrun for example, uses the same rules, they just don't call it humanity, and you reach zero you also become a cyberpsycho.>>98580968>>98581999It's less being Mr. Rogers and more being social. Humans are social creatures, and it should surprise no one in this board that isolation and lack of relationships turns you into a nutjob. How do you think you get THAT GUY who ruins the game for everyone else? do you think those people are empathetic and well adjusted?This is why Conversation and Human perception run off EMP instead of COOL like every other social skill. the more cybered up you get, the colder you get, the more unapproachable you are, the more maladjusted you become. You don't approach a gang member in real life and start asking about your odds of the city's baseball team making it to the world series, unless you're both in the same gang, you stay the fuck away cause he's a ganbanger. Now picture this guy with metal arms, steps that THUD every time they walk, and glowing eyes. Normal people are gonna NOPE! the fuck out of there. It's that lack of connection that symbolizes your Humanity. And what happens at 0 Humanity is that you go fully nuts due to this lack of connection. Think of school shooters, terrorists who think the world is ending if they don't kill a movie star, etc. The only difference with cyberpunk is that you have a bunch of chrome attached.And while there's some admission for the fact that everyone's cybered up, at least with a Nerual Port, most people should be able to tell when something's cosmetic or something means business. Drawing from real life again, Tattoos. They used to be thought of as something criminals and undesirables get, nowadays catholic schoolgirls get tramp stamps. And yet, there's still tattoos that denote danger. Tattoos that upon laying your eyes on them, you just know this guy is not doing cosmetic work.
>>98582188I mean what breaks my immersion is that it takes a superbly well-adjusted person to borg up and then they become a nutcase, but rules as written a baseline meat nutcase can't really borg up because they'll immediately freak out and cave in the skull of their ripperdoc as soon as they install some popup guns or whatever for the first time. In my opinion those dudes who are already fucked up shouldn't be fazed by installing lots of chrome.In Shadowrun, if I recall correctly, everyone starts with the same baseline and a disconnected murderhobo doesn't change their personality before and after chrome.
>>98582255in shadowrun there's no automatic stat penalty for cyberware, but on the scale of 0 to 6 (where 0 is overloaded to death and 6 is healthy and unaugmented) you can take an optional cyberpsycho type flaw when you go below 1. There's a minor social debuff if you go below 3, but it's the equivalent of wearing the wrong suit around normies.It's a better mechanic imo
>>98582255>I mean what breaks my immersion is that it takes a superbly well-adjusted person to borg up and then they become a nutcase>but rules as written a baseline meat nutcase can't really borg up because they'll immediately freak out and cave in the skull of their ripperdocI dunno why you thought this was an argument, this supports my point. Someone who's already halfway to becoming nuts will become nuts sooner. If it's the portrayal that's a problem to you, that's something that can easily be fixed at the table. You and your GM for example could come up with a way to roleplay symptoms of schizophrenia, hallucinations, paranoia, etc. That get worse and worse as you get more cybered up. The book doesn't tell you how to do this, because the book is a set of rules and some background fluff.
>>98582255Not every cyberpsycho is a chromed-up murder-junkie. Some of them retreat from society and become hermits, others can be relatively "normal" until something causes them to snap momentarily and zero someone before returning to how they were before. Johnny is a good example of the latter, since he believed his cyberarm had a mind of its own and made him do things involuntarily.It's worth pointing out that an EMP score of 2 or less is technically cyberpsycho territory, but it's only at zero do you lose control of your character.
>>98580953Cyberware effects your humanity, which also effects your empathy stat (which governs your social skills). And the way this connection works essentially makes it so no matter what, if you have a single piece of cyberware installed you are losing at least 1 point of your empathy stat. Now losing stat points isn’t that big of a deal, the issue is that, in RED in particular, cyberware really isn’t that strong, often times possessing niche or vague abilities that can seemingly just be substituted with basic items in most situations.
>>98581005>one of like 20 chartsThere's literally ONE table, lmao. >the odd chance the target can't dodgePretty sure the number of published NPCs that can bullet dodge in the can be counted on one hand.
>>98582078On the other end of things, I've been in two games, and in one 2/4 PCs could dodge bullets and in the other 4/5 PCs could dodge bullets. Only one Solo in each crew.
>>98582775Well yeah, it's not exactly hard to do. REF is the only Stat that gives you a bonus for reaching the cap, (Apart from wanting a 14 to a skill that's important to your character.) to lots of people "Oh, I wanna max out my handgun skill" REF 8, Handgun 6, and they'll be able to dodge bullets even if they didn't min max it with REF 8, DEX 8, Evasion 6.
>>98582078>>98582775In my experience once a player learns how strong Evasion is they will abuse it, even without min maxing evading ranged attacks is easy enough to achieve. My point still stands that Red goes to so much effort to balance it's weapons around the DV tables only for that careful balance to be undermined by a player with a small semblance of game knowledge.>>98582692>There's literally ONE table, lmao. There's actually 13 in the corebook and 15 more in the SOF45 splat, so 28 overall.>Pretty sure the number of published NPCs that can bullet dodge in the can be counted on one hand.Fair enough, but what if the GM decides to make their own NPCs or edit NPC stats? Giving them the ability to Evade Ranged is a huge power boost. Any NPC that doesn't have it is a sitting duck and combats become way to easy if you go strictly by R.Tal's own balance guidelines (which they didn't even come up with).
>>98586134We move the goalposts back where they belong and resume playing the game.
>Cyberpunk 2013>Cyberpunk 2020Has anyone tried to spoof the previous editions with like, culture from the real 2010s and 2020? I don't know what that would look like, buuut.
>>98586710We introduced some modern convenience technology to our 2020 game, amongst of which smartphones, but because it's contemporary technology in a dystopian "future" it's all pretty awful and you need rolls just to look up the news. We try not to draw in too many real elements, because it'd quickly be a cringe power fantasy, but we have references to culture up to the 20s, for example Steven Seagal is still alive.
>>98582255>In Shadowrun, if I recall correctly, everyone starts with the same baseline and a disconnected murderhobo doesn't change their personality before and after chrome.I think you could reasonably cut humanity as a stat and grant every player a standard cyberware load. Players mostly pick it to max out their cyberware and the actual skills covered by it don't get much play.
>He references popular culture past the year 1993.What a gonk.
>>98565539>no responses I mean cargo shipping containers may not be the best for a cyberpunk ghetto terrain layout.What else should I look at?
>>98586134>"13 in the corebook">calling each ROW of a single table as its own "chart":|>what happens when a GM makes their own NPCsThis is like saying DnD is poorly designed because it includes non-magical weapons when GMs might make all their monsters immune to non-magical weapons. GM skill issue.
I'm just getting into 2020 and had a couple of questions. Firstly in regards to the image do you need two feet to get the bonus, does one work and two gives a +2?And secondly can you spend pickup skill points on improving career skills at character creation?
>>98589661Of course you need it in both feet you gamebreaking munchkin, what are you gonna do with it in one foot? roll so one of your steps is quiet?>step THUNK, step THUNK, step THUNKAnd this also means that the bonus is for both feet as well.
>>98586446What the fuck are you on about? Nobody here actually plays games and my points have been pretty consistent. You're the one REEEING because I don't find your white room arguments convincing. >>98587976>calling each ROW of a single table as its own "chart"Semantics, still doesn't change the fact that there's 28 different sets of values you gotta reference. Red goes to so much effort to make the weapons balanced around those granular values, but that doesn't offer much actual depth to the system because it's undermined by a basic mechanic like Evasion. Generally Red's whole "choose to dodge before the attack is rolled" rules means players tend to favor Evasion unless they know the NPC can't reasonably hit them, so a weapon's "good" ranges become somewhat irrelevant, whilst it's "bad" ranges tend to define them. In my mind the Range DVs only really justify themselves by the fact that constant opposed rolls make the combat tedious, so you give weak enemies flat values to roll against to speed things up a bit.>This is like saying DnD is poorly designed because it includes non-magical weapons when GMs might make all their monsters immune to non-magical weapons. GM skill issue.This is a bad comparison and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Immunity to non magical weapons is not something that comes up alot and it's a pretty easy thing to counter. It's just one of bunch of ways a DM can add challenge to an encounter and it doesn't undermine any of DnD's core combat mechanics like Bullet Dodging does for Red. Adding Bullet Dodging NPCs is an easy way to ratchet up the combat difficulty. You are right that adding a few to each encounter might go against the Dev's intent with how combat should be balanced, but Bullet Dodgers are in the corebook, they're not some broken homebrew bullshit. It's a lever GMs often have to rely on since the game is pretty easy and exploitable in general.
2020 is such an funny game. What do you mean the cyberware and the humanity costs of installing something like a video camera or radar unit into your body is 2 or 3 but get an on-demand adrenaline rush or cyber penis, and you're looking at paying up to 12 humanity for those
