Is Fantasy Adventure Gaming (FAG) using AD&D 1e the one trve way to play games?
A game is comprised of mechanical systems meant to challenge players in areas of skill or luck according to consistent rules.Anything that interrupts or contradicts the structure of gameplay isn't playing the game, and having no structure isn't playing a game.
>>98594589Glad rule zero is consistently in effect.
>>98594616Rule zero isn't a rule.
>>98594589Autism
>>98594658>>>/qst/
>>98594497Who cares. What matters is that FAG is the most fun.
>>98594710>>>/v/
>>98594589Which is relevant how?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psl_5n8R23A
>>98594497There is no one TRVE way, so long as you are using exploration procedures, skirmish wargame combat rules, and the characters are mundane people who earn their status as heroes through adventure.
>>98595633It's important to know what a game is before asking about any "one true way to play games".
>>98594497Oh WOW an AD&D 1e thread! Please explain how initiative works, by the book.
>>98594641Ah yes, that's why they call it >Not A Rule Zero You fucking idiot.
>>98595772"Science" fiction.
>>98595809Different guy. monad
>>98595667According to the manual I'm looking at 2 D6s. One for the party and one for the monsters.
>>98595664Non autistic people (and even most autists) know what a game is by instinct. Why should anyone consult the ramblings of one anon with no authority on the matter and an extremely limited understanding of the concept.
>>98595664>but what do you mean by game?>and what do you mean by trvth?Uhhh thanks I guess.
>>98595664Nothing you wrote above is relevant to understanding what a game isalso technically speaking roleplaying games are not games, they are gamified play pretend activities
>>98596214Those aren't role playing games then theatrefag.
>>98596214Fantastic Adventure Games are individual-scale wargames, not play-pretend.
>>98596382No d&d version to date is a wargame
>>98596322Yes, they areAnd that's what all of roleplaying "games" are
>>98596511>roleplaying "games"Okay, but what is a 'roleplaying game' then?
>>98596507This motherfucker never read Dungeons and Dragons; Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures Book 1 Men and Magic and it shows.
>>98595987>>98596012-> >>98594710
>>98596593>literally it's a woman because it identifies as a woman logicd&d is not a wargame, and that's a man with fake boobs, and you are fag [all lower case]
>>98596744>game assumes someone in the campaign is going become a landed noble with hundreds of men at arms in his employ and explicitly gives advice on resolving it large scale combat>not a war game>gives prices for raising a keep (in which you will garrison your men at arms)>not a war game>average encounter number of orcs during overland travel:165>not a war gamePathetic attempt at a rebuttal Anon. Don't missunderstand me, the big EGG very quickly abandoned the war game assumptions which is why it is usually implicit in ADnD. But for Dungeons and Dragons; Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures it being a war game is explicit in the text.
>>98596851>it has big boobs [fake]>not a woman>it has big lips [fake]>not a woman>it has big ass [fake]>not a womanYes, it's still not a woman, and you are still a fagPlaying with lots of toy soldiers is not what wargaming is you retard, read a book lolD&D never was a wargame
>>98596851> and explicitly gives advice on resolving it large scale combatAd&d 1e famously does not actually have rules for mass combat. And before you say it, no adding a houserule that 1 model = 10 guys doesn't count. It's not in the book after all.Ad&d 1e is an incomplete mess of a game that Gary wrote because he was mad about his players having too much fun in OD&D. That's why have the rules are about shutting down niche interactions, or punishing players for playing.
>>98596382>individual scale wargamesThose are skirmish games, anonWhich reminds me, is Necromunda a FAG
>>98597279Oldcromunda yes. Nucomunda is a board game.
>>98597117>Ad&d 1e is an incomplete mess of a game that Gary wrote because he was mad about paying royalties to DavefifyThat's literally the only reason, everything else is simply rationalizing
>true tabletop roleplaying has never been tried
>>98597378>Roleplaying games aren't games
>>98595655>skirmish wargame combat rulesGo on.
>>98597117>>98597301You are revising history. Gary wrote AD&D 1e because he noticed the game was becoming too theatre-like in some circles and people were taking it into strange directions with fanmade supplements that went against the spirit of the original game. Even When We Were Wizards, a podcast that is quite critical of Gary, points this out.
>>98597723>because he noticed the game was becoming too theatre-like in some circles>too theatre-likeAhem, from AD&D 1e PBH Page 7:>Each of you will become an artful thespian astime goes by [...]
>>98597834he didn't mean it literally. The CAG podcast goes into this.
>>98597279No, Necromunda is a Scientifictional Adventure Game (SAG). Mordheim is a FAG though, albeit rather limited in scope and with some really bad rules (dual-wielding clubs eg).Unironically, the best product of this type made by GW is old Rogue Trader.
>>98597723>Gary wrote AD&D 1e because he noticed the game was becoming too theatre-like doode, it's like I heard it on some podcast doodeLMAO that's some zero critical thinking
>>98597920>Gary literally thought that exact line should be in the PHB>some guy on the internet: but he didn't mean it!!!1I think I'd rather trust Gary's writing on thatIf you are going to arbitrary select what you use in your games you are not playing the game as intended
>>98597920>the words don't actually mean what they sayBehold, the pinnacle of ad&d 1e defender argumentation.
>>98595876Ok, ok, good. To make this really consume the thread, we have two paths. 1- Point out that Gygax said he actually used d10s and stopped using d6s before AD&D was even published. Debate as to whether this was to reduce ties or if it was something about segments and spells. Debate as to whether we find Gygax's later posts interesting or dismiss them as we cling to by-the-book. 2- Dig deeper. Get into whether casting starts at segment 0 or if it starts at initiative count, or if it is only used in certain cases. Get really into that edge case about a knife versus a polearm after melee distance has been closed and a tie on initiative is rolled.Come on, lets get cooking, this thread isn't gonna be about 1e initiative unless we start quoting rules or dragonsfoot posts.
so is this thread arguing that ad&d 1e is shit and that od&d is better or what i'm confused should I ask the FAG/CAG discord about this
>od&dsimple, flexible, but results in different groups playing what are basically different games>ad&dGary decides to make a single comprehensive ruleset that covers the majority of edge cases so that everyone is on the same page, especially for things like events, etc so that everyone can play what is essentially the same game and that knowledge from one game can transfer to another. Game is also more designed for long term campaigns and high level play.>retards in this thread: "DAAAEEEE IT'S SHIT!!! IT'S PURE SHIT!!! YOU NEED TO PLAY 5E INSTEAD!!! YOU NEED TO DO FUNNY VOICES AT THE TABLE TO BE A TRUE GAMER!!" this is why people fuckin hate d&d players
>>98598616discord troons on my 4chins? it's more likely than you think
>>98598708>>od&d>simple, flexible, but results in different groups playing what are basically different gamesYes, this is good. Everyone's game should not be the exact same, standardizing RPGs is stupid, board-game brained nonsense.>Game is also more designed for long term campaigns and high level play.Lol, lmao even. The high level "play" of ad&d 1e is so laughably bad and busted that basically every module ever written to high level has to outright ignore half the rules and turn off most of the spells in some way. Gary didn't design 1e for anything other than avoiding paying Arneson and it shows>"DAAAEEEE IT'S SHIT!!! IT'S PURE SHIT!!! YOU NEED TO PLAY 5E INSTEAD!!! YOU NEED TO DO FUNNY VOICES AT THE TABLE TO BE A TRUE GAMER!!"Gary wanted you to fucking GRADE YOUR PLAYERS on how well they RPd. A bad grade affected how fast you could level. But please tell me more about how 5e players doing funny voices is the trve root of retarded story gaming.
>>98598708>Gary decides to make a single comprehensive ruleset that covers the majority of edge cases so that everyone is on the same page,>writes the least comprehensive D&D books ever sprinkled with inconsistencies and outright contradictions>also literally the first D&D book to include a formal rule 0what did he mean by that?I think anon means that he is a nogames who only listens to podcasts and flips through the book from time to time and imagines how cool would it be to play the gamewhat do you anons think?
>>98599106this anon thinks Jeffro and his successors should be forced to play PtbA for all eternity.
>>98599148wrong try againI don't think about your favorite podcaster at all
>>98594497So, real question. Has anyone ACTUALLY played AD&D and/or one of thousand hundred OSR offshoots? Because all OSR-related content I see on the internet is one of the three:>WOW you guys are DUMB and STUPID for not playing OSR!>Man why nobody plays OSR with me >Here's my Grimpoopevildark, a complete rehash of AD&D with such revolutionary mechanics as "I haven't thought of a rule for this, figure it out yourselves :)" and "tie a 2kg weight to your balls, when they become completely blue that means arbitrary amount of time in-game has passed"(revolutionary mechanic, won fifteen Ennies at once. Also won an Oscar - organizers added it just because it was lying around)Like, I want to believe OSRfags have any merit to the hobby, but I see no stories from campaigns, no people creatively solving challenges, no fun/cool moments, just endless whining how everyone not playing in "trad" and "trve" way are "theater kids" or whatever buzzword of the month is going around. That and whoever even thinks of playing a non-magical / non-human / non-"medieval accurate" character is secretly Adolf Nigler, the Melaninated Scourge of the West.Come on, OSRfags, crawl out of woodwork, defend your huge heaping pile of almost identical games nobody except mentally unwell (that's me, I am mentally unwell) have ever read.
>>98599279FAG actively rejects the OSR movement because the OSR is horseshit.https://csio.blogspot.com/2024/07/what-is-classic-adventure-gaming.html?m=1
>>98599279I'm going to give a practical example>Group is doing some exploration while bringing a bunch of survivors of abandoning a town to another nearby town they're allied with>Doing pick up on the hunting/fishing camps that were surrounding the town>Finds one where the fishing is obscenely good>Fills their entire hold with fresh fish over the course of 2-3 days>Thanks to knowing exactly how much a passenger and their livelyhood weighs, I can calculate how much room they have left for fish in their small armada>They know the exact value of the fish>Decide it isn't enough>When they arrive pay their allies some barter in the form of gemstones to use all their smokers for a few days to smoke the fish>Rule it counts as increasing the value by 2 steps>They're pleased as punch as they then find the nearest town that needs food and go off to sell it>Make about 10k cash from taking advantage of an opportunity that came up by chanceso what do you think?bretty cool wouldn't you agree?
>>98599450what system
>>98599455why does it matter?you asked for cool OSR war-storieswell here you go
>>98599465Was it AD&D or not, anon?
>>98597044You wanting to relate everything you see to autogynophiles has nothing to do with what I am communicating, please take your meds.>>98597117>Ad&d 1e famously does not actually have rules for mass combatWhich is why I am not and did not say it did. I was talking about Dungeons and Dragons; Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures by E Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson released in 1974>>98597301Seems unlikely given the scope of the product. Probably the big EGG was writing it anyway and took it as an opportunity to cut Dave out.>>98597920>he didn't mean it literallyDo you want to share your opinion with the class then because I'm not listening to an hour long phonecall to understand what you mean.>>98599279Ennies are won by those with the right kind of publicity (and politics) not by anyone with a competent game designer so unfortunately that's just the system doing exactly what you'd expect it to do.
>>98599363Oh so you guys are striving for the NEXT level of larp.>>98599450That's pretty mild as far as stories go, but hey, you're actually playing OSR. But really, what system?
>>98600819>That's pretty mild as far as stories goyou again? that's literally peak gaming>Was it AD&D or notno, that's a B/X retroclone
>>98595809Double Feature.
>>98599450kek
>>98594497No. But it solves a lot of problems that nobody else seems to even be making a dent in right now.
>>98598708In all honesty, it was all downhill after OD&D plus supplements. Gygax should have just compiled all those into one book, put the best editor and technical writer he could hire to the task of cleaning it up, and maybe added a couple rules fixes here and there. However, he had Arneson to stiff out of royalties instead, so he needed to come up with a "new game".Pretty much everything that Gygax added to 1e that wasn't present in OD&D+Supplements is overcomplicated bullshit or unplaytested dreck (when it's not both) that makes the game worse with its inclusion. Gygax acknowledges this implicitly with how he ran the game in his later years: OD&D with a few house rules.
>>98596382Wargames are just playing pretend with toy soldiers
>>98603183nowargames are wargamesOD&D on the other hand is play pretend with toy soldiers because it's not a wargamet. nta
>>98603073>However, he had Arneson to stiff out of royalties instead, so he needed to come up with a "new game".You've already been told this multiple times, but this is a myth. Stiffing Arneson formed zero percent of the motivation for creating AD&D in the first place; Gygax just decided *during work on AD&D* that since Arneson wasn't helping he didn't deserve a cut, and that's why he tried to box him out.
>>98603334that claim requires some sort of proof with more credibility than some literally who said so on the internetI really doubt it's so thoughwould it be true Gygax would actually take necessary time to iron out the books before publishing so that they would actually fulfill his declared goal of "making a single comprehensive ruleset" so that "everyone is playing what is essentially the same game"the books were obviously rushed out asap though
>>98603073So what you're saying is that the pinnacle of FAG is OD&D+houserules?
>>98594497i never noticed the wizard was giving a thumbs up
>>98599450My sides.
>>98603183>t. ntaIt's a art.
>>98599279AD&D isn't real OSR. Real OSR is Basic D&D and games that directly rip off basic D&D.Rule of thumb: race must be connected to class. Your game cannot have an Elf Fighter, it must have Elf and Fighter as separate classes that can't mix.
>>98603442The DMG came out two years after the PHB, that's hardly rushed out ASAP.
>>98598586Point 1, d10 for matching to segments. Point 2, use weapon speed and weapon length. Dagger vs. halberd is not pleasant.
>>98605224>Your game cannot have an Elf Fighter, it must have Elf and Fighter as separate classes that can't mixWut if girl elf?
>>98599279I've been running B/X then Dolmenwood for my childhood friends in real life for 6ish years, just recently one of them took over and is giving me a break. We've had many campaigns:>Fistful of PlatinumObviously this was a 'Weird West' game. Players were bounty hunters on the frontier, major factions were the two sides of a civil war and a syncretic religious schism worshipping an Aztec-esque native god prophecied to return. 22 players, 8 per session generally, 18 months. Fizzled after a huge train heist on the secessionists with 11 players that killed half of them and made the other half filthy rich.>Eternal Library of Eb G'AdulBasically a megadungeon campaign about a mercenary company setting up a new base, where one of the players found the Hand and Eye of the lich Eb G'Adul and immediately cut his own off and attached them to himself. Resulted in a huge PvP schism that wrecked the PC merc company's airship. The lich escaped and brought on an undead plague, triggering several crusades. The remaining members of the company hunted the possessed vessel player to his tower made of bones, sacking some cities along the way, and took him out in a huge 10 hour long tower crawl. 10 players, all of them made it to the final session, it was 1 attack roll away from a TPK. Incredible tension, one of the greatest highs I've had as a GM, though I do fantasize about if he'd missed. 10 months. >Miracle at WetsteadSmaller scale game about 3 bickering families on the edge of an old river in a place no one cares about, where the PC's were visited by an angel saying the town would be destroyed in 3 months' time. Lots of smoking pipeweed and talking to magic fish type of game. One player traded their mortality with the river's guardian dragon for power and was whisked away at the end, much to the dismay of her fiancé, but otherwise no one died and it stayed small scale. 6 players, 6 months. (1/2)
>>98605224Okay, so what's the identity of the single exclusive race-class that belongs to Human?
>>98599279>>98606852Took a short break from OSR games, then:>StonehellIt was nice to run a megadungeon module. Players each lost "something precious to them" and needed to get it back from the "Beauty of Many", an old and wrinkly lolibaba beholder daughter of the Lady of Chains. Lethal game. Many players died to the insane prisoners on floor 2 trying to rip open reality so the Others could creep in, I let some of the dead ones come back as lesser death knights & such for some sessions but otherwise they made new characters. 12 months. Completed floors 1-4 A-D, 9 players.>Tower of GodSet in the ancient past, the Babylonian god Marduk ruled the 9 worlds of the Tower & the players scaled it at the request of an old blacksmith IL, short for Illuvatar, I'm not clever. The players were demigods who could come back from the dead and scaled each world. Eventually we moved to Godbound to keep up the power creep. They were supposed to end the cycle of child gods killing and usurping their parents, but after much hardship (getting wrecked by Tiamat, etc) they each came to other conclusions about how the next world should be and betrayed IL & Azazel to take the throne themselves in an enormous blood bath exactly how Marduk wanted. One PC was an ape who wanted to become Buddha but was bound to his worldly desires, another wanted purpose but discovered he was a simulacrum, one sought the sacred sword-key the Opener of the Way but it wasn't enough to defeat the lesser angel PC they stacked all their magic items on, Azazel allied with Marduk's son in a last ditch effort to intervene on behalf of peoples' free will but they were also defeated. Very fun and unexpected ending, I am planning a sequel campaign with the surviving angel PC as the new God. 9 players, 14 months.
>>98599279>Has anyone ever actually played old school D&D? Take a wild fucking guess
>>98599279>>98606896(3/2)>Dragon of Snowhead CrestOriginally this was going to be Dragon of Icespire Peak because I had it lying around, but the module sucked so I homebrewed something instead and ran it with Dolmenwood. Generic fantasy adventure fare, but one newer player got totally hooked on D&D when they got obliterated from full by a breath weapon--wide grin, "I got greedy." Another PC died when the dragon was shot out of the sky with a cannon while it was carrying them as hostage. The town at the bottom of the mountain eventually grew legs and walked away with the players on it. 7 players, 4 months.>City-State of the Invincible OverlordThis one was fun while it lasted. Players were working under the city to try to gather monsters and outcasts and slaves in an effort to stop the Overlord from physically moving all the world's cities to his draconian mega-city. Fizzled when some players moved. 4 players, 4 months. Ran concurrently with Snowhead Crest.I took another break after this. >Black Wyrm of BrandonsfordBeing run by one of my longtime players using Dolmenwood. Tonight I am working on our freshly printed miniatures for it, my first time modeling the minis from scratch instead of kitbashing. My illustrations -> Hunyuan 3D mesh generator -> Autodesk Meshmixer -> Lychee. He's doing a great job. 10-ish players, been at it for 3 months so far. The players in this game like talking in character a lot, but I can bear it as long as my friend is having fun running it. 9 players. None of this counts oneshots, which I regularly run for random people using dice I hide in my wallet and bar receipts or whatever else I have on hand, or the short AD&D dungeons I've run for my boomer dad and his retiree pals. They love when I get real metal with the descriptions. Despite not having played since the 80's, most were still some of the sharpest players I've had. You may notice all these games have tons of players. One of many joys of procedural fantasy wargaming.
>>98606896Tower of God PC minis.
>>98606975I like Gorilla Grodd there.
>>98599279>Like, I want to believe OSRfags have any merit to the hobbyThis was your first mistake.
>>98606916>>98607049Tell us about your game then anon. You do have an IRL game, right?>>98607020He kind of looks like that too, love that guy. His Black Wyrm PC died last week, but he's bringing in an old PC instead of starting from level 1 because he's a coward who will not see the light of Heaven
>>98595667The short of it, initiative doesn't work. Beginning with surprise rules that are immediately contradicted by a table, continuing with weapon factors that are unrelated to segments in melee, related to them when attacking a spellcaster and undefined in other situations, everything about the initiative system is a halfbaked mess.
>>98607721But anon! Bloggers told me it works just fine!!! That it's the perfect system!!!
>>98607992OSRIC. They're talking about OSRIC (which is just AD&D homebrewed to be playable) with certain AD&D subsystems ported over.
>>98594641It is, in fact, routinely a rule.>>98595809Ah, you're that autist.
D&D5e fags talking about any rules problems with AD&D is peak pot meeting kettle lmao
>>986085125e (especially 5.5e) is the result of nearly 50 years of continual game design evolution and improvement. You fags keep going "old good, new bad" but the reality is new=good, old=bad.
