What causes this?
>>98598628The strawmen should be reversed. War games throw some of the biggest shitfits over the rules I’ve ever seen.
>wheelchair on the tabletop gameYeah sure, this is just a culture warrior trying to paint wargaming as le based and trad.
>>98598666>nooo wheelchairs in my games reeeeedeal with it chuddie
>>98598628No idea, that never happened to me. Did that happen to you, OP?
>>98598740It did. I've been playing wargames for 15 years and ttrpgs for 12. I can count on one hand where I've had an unpleasant experience around people interacting with the rules.However TTRPGs are a very strange thing. To even talk about the rules has people look at you like some sort of beast. Most players don't know a single rule, or even how their character works. To play the game is insane, most just sit around and wait for the DM to tell them what to do.
>>98598628>>98598754To answer your question, TTRPGs became a nerdy fad normies could get into due to Critical Roll and the like making it look cool. A good chunk of tables now have a large number of "participants" rather than players.
wargames being adversarial by nature means there's a culture of sportsmanship involved. you and your opponent are on equal footing, consenting to a match with agreed upon rules you are both equally beholden to, so good faith adherence and holding one another accountable for slip-ups is considered normal and part of the intended experience.TTRPGs, at least the modern incarnation, do not treat the players and game master as equal participants holding each other accountable in good faith. The referee is placed in a superior position to the players in a unilateral fashion, with the existence of the game itself being treated like a favor or kindness done to the players for their benefit at his expense. Questioning the referee is considered a social faux pas in the same vein as a child back-talking their parents, how dare you bite the hand that feeds you, you ungrateful low-life? Wargames, board games, actual sports, etc. treat competitors as equals and thus there is equal respect. If your TTRPG does not treat the player as equal to the GM, of course you won't be given the same respect and good faith. Ironically, what people call "Adversarial GMing" in the early days of the hobby is actually often more fair as a result, since the GM and players are treated as asymmetrical opponents adhering to a shared understanding of the rules and game. I could go on for ages about the paternalistic attitude many RPGs end up encouraging nowadays and how this directly leads to burn-out and GM shortages as the GM is expected to essentially babysit and parent groups through everything from character creation to teaching the rules to micromanaging player social dynamics with players ceding all agency and responsibility to the "adult", which is a completely different dynamic from any other tabletop hobby where even in asymmetrical scenarios all players are treated as equals and share responsibility for knowing the fucking rules and being an adult holding each other accountable.
>>98599047>since the GM and players are treated as asymmetrical opponents adhering to a shared understanding of the rules and gameyou pulled this out of your ass just as almost everything else in your post
>>98599339not really. the image in that post is literally an old tournament schedule from the 80's, when D&D play was literally structured enough and wargame adjacent enough that the idea of competitive play and going to a convention to try and "win" a tournament with skillful gameplay was considered normal. Obviously this is alien to how people approach games in 2026, but it really was a different way of conceiving the game.
>>98598628Clear unambiguous rules VS. rulings.
>>98599047That does explain the scenario in OP's pic. But what explains this>Player gets a rule wrong>Another player points this out>Shitflinging ensues
>>98598666Yeah, but RPG culture loves to engage in apologism for poorly written or rules that encourage shit patterns of play with "just house rule it bro, why do you care about rules so much in a game?"
>>98599478Some people are just faggots.
>>98598794>>98598754Paranoia 2e explicitly punished the player for knowing the rules and calling out the GM. After all, How would you get access to Blow-U-Off's database, Bett-R-Guy? Clearly, you must be a traitor. All Traitors must be shot on sight.
>>98599047I miss when wargames where about fun
>>98598655You just exposed yourself as a nogames faggot who gets his perception of the wargaming community from YouTube Shorts.
>>98598628Your strawmanning aside, it comes down to the purpose of each.>WargamesCompetitive games where your goal is victory. This requires strict, clear rules that don't change mid-game so that both players are (theoretically) on even footing, and are actually on even footing in terms of the rules being used. This, of course, ignores casual games where two friends might use their own houserules (similar to a board game, which are also largely competitive affairs) which are agreed upon before play.>TTRPGsCooperative games where the goal is to create a story with your friends through gameplay. This can sometimes require bending the rules to allow for more creativity (or, in some cases, the use of things that are common sense that are not covered by the rules as a result), and strict adherence to the rules as written is not only not mandatory, but sub-optimal. Of course, if you're changing EVERYTHING, you might as well make your own system or use a different one, but it is expected with basically every TTRPG that players and GMs will tweak things to their taste. The only TTRPG that you can run or play RAW is one you make yourself to your taste. Ultimately, you're just whining to create discord and confrontation on the board though, or at best you're pushing some ill thought out political agenda and don't actually play or run traditional games. So of course, you'll ignore the fact I'm talking sense and call me a tranny (if you're a rightard) or a nazi (if you're a leftard), and I won't give a shit because you're objectively incorrect on either account.
>>98600576And you just proved my point, mr war gamer
>>98600348They are still about fun. Even when playing a game for fun, or for a narrative and intentionally asymmetrical and unbalanced experience (nobody expects Custer to win Custer's Last Stand) , you still agree to conditions as equals. A friendly pick up game of basketball or football or whatever is also played purely for fun, but if you start doing Calvinball shit mid-game without discussing it or group approval people won't be happy and it's a breach of the social contract, even in purely 4fun games.
>>98600714Whatever you say, faggot.
>>98600756Yeah, I know you’re a faggot, you don’t have to sign your post that way
>>98598628This is why
>>98598628
>>98600637Wargames are not strictly competitive. Especially not tabletop wargames, which have more of an emphasis on narrative and scenario. The American scene over the last 15 years has been more of an aberration than the standard. There is very much a light-cooperative element to Wargaming, where both players do their best to make sure the game stays fun. One would call this sportsmanship, in a remarkably un-sportlike game.Such a thing is unheard of in the TTRPG sphere. Instead of 2+ equal players you now have 2+ drunken tourists with a weary DM tour guide to show them the "game". To talk back to the tour guide is incredibly rude, but he doesn't mind if you're on your phone or not paying any attention.
>>98601436Sportsmanship is not the same thing as cooperative play. You're twisting words to fit your argument. Cooperative play is a group of allies. Sportsmanship is honor between two competitors. You wouldn't call two opposing football (soccer) teams "cooperative" with one another on the field. They might show respect for each other and the rules - sportsmanship - but they certainly are not allies, let alone cooperating with one another. The two teams are openly competing, and there can only be one winner.You also have zero clue what a TTRPG actually runs or plays like, showing that you are, in fact, a no games culture war tourist, or at the very least an elitist faggot who is subhuman filth.
>>98598628Templates
>>98598754>muh anecdotes!You argue like a woman
>>98601436Not to mention that the GM has the right to add new rules or change things around for tabletop RPGs for fun/storytelling (Rule Zero). In fact, Paranoia penalizes people learning the rules and encourages that behaviour from the GM.Compare that to tabletop wargames where there is no such thing as Rule Zero and the rules are more clearly defined.
>>98598754I've been playing for ten years with a variety of people using numerous different rules, and we've never had a problem learning, discussing and dissecting different rules and systems. Sounds like you either play with assholes or (far more likely) you've invented an idea about the hobby based on hyperbolic internet shit posting.
>>98598628I think the common ttrpg advice of “the best way to learn the rules is to play the game!” is wrong, in my experience it leads to people never reading 80%+ of the rules and soon enough you’re wondering why a simple fight takes up ⅔ of the entire game. Maybe if everyone else playing read 100% of the rules it could work out, but in my experiences with multiple people learning a new game at the same time they end up learning more like 50% of the rules and everything takes forever and game balance breaks.
>>98598666>>98598736Not either anon here, but 1) I'm handicapped and 2) autistically into medieval and early Modern prosthetics. The expensive ones are much cooler than "hurr durr modern wheelchair wedged into muh fantasy game". Even the poorfag solution of a wheeled sled with a belt and hand-clogs is still interesting and gives you some fun stuff to work with as a character. But no, gotta wedge in Victorian tech because God forbid you actually put in some work developing a character instead of just crudely slapping Dymo labels on top of a modern person.
>>98598666I assume the wheelchair wizard is played by someone actually in a wheelchair. It’s not surprising they might want to make a wizard in a wheelchair
>>98602167>I'm handicappedphysically or mentally?
>>98602184Been in and out of a wheelchair for years, walk with braces and sticks when things are good.Anyway. The medievals loved a good cripple fight as much as everyone else, so you do occasionally run into stuff like this in manuscripts in between the shitting horses or the women wearing penis-shaped hats or legion upon legion of people playing wind instruments with their assholes. And the normies say comparative manuscript research must be boring..
>>98602206Yeah. Medieval people loved a good spectacle. Other cripples had their practical use too those human-sized hamster wheels that were used for lifting stuff would be usually powered by blind, armless, or retarded.
>>98602184I mean there's always spiritually.
>>98598736>>98598666>staircasedeal with it, apotemnophiles
>>98601968>>98601973>>98602040>>98602094Why do TTRPG players get so viscerally angry at being called out like this?
>>98602808Cause OP is spouting nogame redditor nonsense
>>98598666because it is.
>>98598628Spergs. There are spergs of all types. If you think wargaming is somehow immune to this you've never played a wargame irl at a club or in groups. Neither get as bad as tcgs. They have unarguably the worst community.
>>98600348Trying to win a game against an equally skilled opponent in a competition defined by rules is fun.
>>98600637Wrong. The goal is not to create a story. It is to solve problems by making decisions within a framework of systems that are defined by a consistent set of rules, in order to achieve player goals.
>>98598628TTRPG gamers are always questioning me as the DM. I've started putting my foot down, but they seem spoiled like they can defy me openly and nothing will happen. No respect for DMs anymore, man.
>>98602040No he doesn't.
>>98602176disabled people don't want to play as disabled people.
>>98603386Stop running the game wrong. You want respect, earn it. Bitch.
>>98603385I do like the consistency of rule zero.
>>98603425doesn't exist.
>>98603385>>98602808why would you say that are you literally Trogdor
>>98603386This is what happens when you don't play with your friends. Also, if you're GMing to power trip, you shouldn't be a GM.
>>98603385But what if you accidentally create a story? Will you be able to wash your shame off if it does? Will your fellow TRVE gamers tar and feather you if your character will become anything but John Dungeoncrawl?Will you stop being retarded on 4chan and touch grass?
>>98598655I've never seen wargamers suggest RAI instead of RAW on the spot. Generally if wargame rules are changed the distinction is clearly made. Many DnD and a number of board games I've seen people just play the game wrong.
>>98603742You see it much more from cheaters and rules lawyers who are clearly expecting you to take their word for it over consulting the book. They act like the second half of OP’s picture, super wounded and upset if you so much as insinuate they made a mistake
>>98603784In my experience with those guys it's less "look it's a game have fun" and more "no it works this way, I know the rules... oh you want to look it up? Can you stop dragging out the game? I don't want the game to last 6 hours because we have to look up obvious rules. Oh you found the rule? No you're misreading it, let me look up something online. See this guy online says I'm right. Oh the FAQ mentions that I'm interpreting the rule wrong? Well I guess we can play it that way, but my interpretation makes more sense.With TTRPGs the defence of arbitrary RAI is generally less "no I'm not wrong" and more "come on this is more fun! Don't you find this more immersersive?"
>>98598628only an ork chad would be so graciousI've seen many a marinepiggie meltie over rules interpretation
>THAT'S A GOTCHA!!!!!! GOTCHA GOTCHA!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE TO TELL ME IN ADVANCE YOUR ENTIRE STRATEGY OR YOU'RE CHEATING!!!!!!!!!!!!average nu40k experience
>>98598666U mad?
>>98603887Wut
you people cant even do entertaining baits anymore
>>98599047>wargames being adversarial by nature means there's a culture of sportsmanship involved.Laughable. The inherent competitiveness of wargames makes players more volatile and prone to cheating and sperging.I've met one guy who cheated in tabletop games over the years, and he just fudged dice rolls to try and make epic natty 20 moments happen just to make the other players like him because he was a social outcast rather than out of malice. Otherwise the closest you get is the GM fudging his rolls (Which is explicitly not cheating, he can just do that) to not TPK the entire party when a game was balanced like shit.On the other hand, out of at least 13 different Wargame tournaments I attended, there was always some form of cheating. People doing anything to move a unit an extra inch forwards, cheating die rolls, lying about template scatter, making up rules, even using loaded dice. Not to mention that unsporting conduct was the norm. Everyone had to constantly check their opponents and watch them like a hawk, make sure every single inch was accounted for, know their own army rules even better than their own, call the judges over every minor quibble, because if they didn't, the other side would happily cheat their way to victory.In conclusion, toygamers (I refuse to call them wargames, because they don't game out wars, they just collect toys), are typically insufferable WAAC spergs.
>>98603862>With TTRPGs the defence of arbitrary RAI is generally less "no I'm not wrong" and more "come on this is more fun! Don't you find this more immersersive?"In my experience it's usually just been "Rule zero lol".
>>98598628People adjust rules they find uninteresting or unfun even in PvP games (gentleman's agreements, bans, handicaps, et cetera), why would that change even in a TTRPG? The biggest advantage of a tabletop game is the ability to adjudicate, to decide if certain behavior is legitimate or not, and to determine if certain rules work or not for the table. Second off, players talk out of their ass about shit they don't know about all the time; just because the GM's description sounds like a troll, doesn't mean its actually a troll or has a troll stat-line. Nor does it mean it has standard MM troll equipment, or come into the fight exactly as the MM wrote it. An infinite variety of circumstances could lead a player to have insufficient information to adjudicate the way the GM does; many times this is entirely intentional to make the game interesting as the players now have to deal with their limited perception of the world as characters.Just because the 'hero' of your strawman knows the rules of the book, doesn't mean he knows the rules of the table.
>>98598628It’s not accurate at all. Like even remotely.
>>98604439>player polymorphs into a huge creature in a tiny tunnel to fight the enemies>bro you can’t even fit, just transform at the end of the tunnel when you get into the enemy base, it opens up, you can see this at the end of the tunnel 30 feet in front of you, it’s big outdoor spaces>no I want to do it now in this tiny tunnel “to sneak in” (really so he can cast more buffs meant to be cast in combat immidiately before combat)>the space is near impossible for him to fit to transform, but he cries about it long enough that I let him do it>enemy guards are alerted to their presence while he’s still in the tunnel>they charge into tunnel and combat starts>rest of team fighting other guards >he attacks 2 of them in the tunnel>ok, but you have disadvantage because you are squeezing >he freaks out and cries about it, about how making up rules and disadvantage is far too extreme >turn to the page in the book about squeezing rules, and how the one of the only effects is disadvantage on melee attacks. >he gets all defensive that he didn’t know it was a real rule>also see enemies get advantage on him>other players now mad at him for wasting 20+ minutes crying about this twice and make me Reroll the misses against him the enemies just made, and they both hit>20 minutes later same thing happens with a wall of fire, then a poison effect, then a divination spell, then climbing bs spider climbing rules (no you cannot climb a slick slippery vertical wall covered in slime without magical means)This is why you never ever ever say you’re playing RAW, say you will make judgements on the spot, and no arguing, I’ve had this happen to me and other DM’s so many times, OP is right and it’s always the players fault at a point, tho DM’s can make shit calls, if you’re a good dm and have played a lot you can pretty much figure out what to do that’s proper.
>>98604678Bad Dm>spend 2-3 minutes talking out my movement jumping and swinging across a bunch of shit, counting up the buffs to my speed and jump damage and stuff>we get in agreement I have enough waking speed to do it>do my bonus action, run, jump down, run across, swing on the thing>ok you’re done moving>what?>you moved 10 feet down when you jumped off the thing, and swinging on the conveniently set up swing costs movement, so you’re mid swing and you can’t take an action cuz you’re hanging from the rope >what the fuck why did we just plan my movement out them>don’t argue, turns over>get shot by an arrow and fall and dieHad this same sort of thing happen twice.
>>98604724Lmao owned. The fact that you didn't get the memo the first time shows it was entirely deserved.
>>98603716The story occurs from the actions and decisions made within the framework of the rules levied against the scenario
>>98603432Weird it sure comes up at lot and makes you seethe like a bitch. Most wargames have a bit in them along the lines of >use your common sense and communication to resolve rules disputes >if all else fails roll for it and move on
>>98604045Back in 2020 Warhammer added a whole card game rules layer on top of the normal games. Players each have multiple "Stratagem Cards" that they save mana to buy. Every single unit also has 2+ unique extra rules to keep track of
>>98603716I didn't state any value judgements about stories. Did you mean to reply to someone else?
>>98603742There is no difference between RAI and RAW. The only means available to discover what someone intends is to communicate with language, which in this case means reading the words they wrote in the book. If you think the rules mean X, then you think the the designers intended X. If the words they wrote led you to believe they intended Y, then you think the words mean Y.
>>98604756Both DM’s games failed like 3-4 weeks later
>>98604856Weird that it actually never does, you mean. Bitch.
>>98604853>>98604923Oh, you're actually autistic (not insulting you). Apologies, carry on.
>>98604943
>>98604939lol keep on keeping on autismo nogames.
>>98604943Nope I win you lose bitch
>>98604943No. Answer me. What led you to believe that I think stories are shameful? Did you confuse me with a different poster?
>>98605000The general sentiment from a concerningly rising amount of shitposters. You just caught a stray because your posting style resembled them. My bad, I was annoyed.
>>98605184You didn't reply to them. You replied to me. I didn't say anything about stories being shameful. Try again, and this time, DON'T FUCKING LIE.
>>98604959you lose :)
>>98602167Yeah, the problem of the Combat Wheelchair is that it's fucking boring
>>98598628What's stopping (You) the GM from treating your campaign as a glorified wargame with story intermissions and the occasional puzzle?
>>98602808I'm a wargamer who has had to deal with shittons of spergy arguments based on vague rules and rules lawyering faggotry, retard. No doubt from people like (you) who insist they don't exist.
>>98601375I laughed anon, you got me
>>98606070I did once play a guy in a wheelchair in Call of Cthulhu and you can make a wheelchair surprisingly interesting in utilities, though you do better at quick assaults where you're able to exploit people's general feeling of you being harmless, plus no one wants to check the wheelchair for guns, or bombs. Once you're in actual big flashy combat, though, it's just bizarre to try and imagine anything but firearms being used for a wheelchair fight, and even then you need to account for the problems. I liked how Wolfenstein 2's first level was in a wheelchair, you couldn't go up stairs and had to ride on pistons and shit to get up spots, and you were unable to turn and shoot at the same time because you had to put the gun on your lap to use both wheels. It was neat.
>>98607818>you do better at quick assaults where you're able to exploit people's general feeling of you being harmless, plus no one wants to check the wheelchair for guns, or bombs.IRL mossad does this for infils (alongside dressing in burkas) because the naive goyim are nice to cripples and women.
>>98607818>Once you're in actual big flashy combat, though, it's just bizarre to try and imagine anything but firearms being used for a wheelchair fightEh, I can imagine something elseThat said, she does have a minigun for a prosthetic left leg that she uses right before this
>>98608438Right leg, not left
>>98606256Remember, Warhammer isn't an actual wargame!
>>98606256Wargamers don't try to pretend that the rules aren't poorly written or confusing. RPG players throw up their hands and say "Why do you care about crunch so much, and even if it were bad, you can Rule 0 it".
