>Hey we're a game company>Here is our game it's LGBTQ+ furry faggotry tranny pronoun DEI palooza>OMG This is probably Hello Kitty Adventure Island with plastic swords>It's literally the most complicated, crunchy, tactical RPG ever made>Well I bet the lore is just coffee shop fanfics>It's dark brutal, and you could write several encylopedias about it>Well uhh I bet the manly hetrosexual grognards over at OSR I doing all of that but way bigger>OSR: This our fighter class, it has options like....attack...and well that's it. Also we have fewer stats than a Super Nintendo RPG>How's your lore and world>OSR: That's for queers. We just have mazes with orcs them. They were put there by the Orc God named Rape-Eye. That's really dark isn't it?.....time to play the furfag game I guess....
>>98614925I betting you're work or were working for Paizo. This screams please buy us again and shit.
>>98614925>tranny game is full of autistic bullshit>somehow this is a surprise
>>98614939OSR is also a tranny game doeever. Normal people don't play tabletop rpgs.
>>98614925I agree that OSR boomers are lead-poisoned retards and larpers. I agree that paizo is crunchy. ButPiazo games all suck complete ass to play. Just total dogshit mechanically and extremely uninteresting to spend time on
>>98614925>It's literally the most complicated, crunchy, tactical RPG ever madeIt's literally just D&D 4e except worse.
>cant compete with dnd, most people have never even heard of pathfinder >osr boomers dont know how to use computers so they cant even read your passive aggressive complaints intended to bully them into playing your product paizo was made to suffer and they deserve it
>>98614925>It's literally the most complicated, crunchy, tactical RPG ever madelmao
>>98615138That's Draw Steel, anon.Paizo was just 3.5 for years. Second edition is just flat out retarded. The really fucked up thing is that Starfinder 1e had the bones of a proper evolution of 3.5 but then they just dropped all that to make it match PF2e for cross compatibility.
>>98614925It's amazing how one can be so based yet so cringe at the same time
>>98614925LGBT tranny freak shit is 99.999% of the time for men in drag.
>>98614925Just find a GM who has their own home brewsetting, my mine is elden ring based and it's nogs and pajeet societies in the setting are the literal meat shields of an evil goblin race seeking to take over it.
>>98614942Ah troons and playing their singular "everyone else is a troon in denial too!" cardGet better material
>>98614932Paizo is making revenue in the 8 digits, they don't need to beg you faggot for anything, lmao
>>98616299Every fucking OSR game out there has the troon belt or some equivalent, faggot. Cope harder.
>>98614925I'd choose Hello Kitty Adventure island over bloated wanabee wargame with grimderp juvinile graphomania any day.
>>98614925>it's complicated>it's dark brutal
>>98614925>OSR: [...] Also we have fewer stats than a Super Nintendo RPGI think OSR focuses more on players and not characters. And that is feature (at least in their philosophy).>It's literally the most complicated, crunchy, tactical RPG ever madeIs that a good thing, or a bad thing? I can't tell.Fortunately, it's not like you are limited to Paizo's faggotry or OSR. You can also pick WotC faggotry!
>>98616308Are you ESL or just retarded? Legitimate question
>>98614925I'm DMing OSE and my fighters can only attack because I want them to say stuff like "I bait it to jump on me and as it pounces I dash forward to pin it on the wall with all my weight while I try desperately to plunge my sword in its throat while my face is so close to it I can smell the rotten dead meat stuck between its teeth" instead of "I roll for Bearhug Chokehold, it's a 2D10 attack + 1/lvl - distance from the target". I'm tired of "people" playing their sheet in front of me and min-maxxing on my back instead of living the adventure.
>>98615936>The really fucked up thing is that Starfinder 1e had the bones of a proper evolution of 3.5as far as what, the action economy? i played it 4 or 5 times when it initially came out but i found the setting excruciatingly boring so never got very invested in it
>>98617504those both sound equally gay. do you make the fighters kiss you on the lips too?
>>98617504>I'm DMing OSE and my fighters can only attack because I want them to say stuff likeAnd how does having only attack as viable options help that?
>>98617540Two things:1. If you have "feat" in your game then you restrict your players. Either they have the disarm feat and they can try that either they don't have it and then though luck. If they can only "attack" then they attack however they plausibly try to and the fantasy is just a roll away.2. Having a single static attack roll means it sucks to say "I attack". You want to stack so much cards in your deck the DM doesn't even bother asking for a roll or at least gives you some fat situational bonus or even roll something else stupid easy instead.If you're into tactical then you won't find the point I guess. But as a DM it's nice to have people looking at you in the eyes instead of looking down at their feat list for every questions. It's nice having them discuss the game afterward instead of shopping for new feats or theory-crafting some bullshit OP combo. My man, just throw a molotov inside the room and bare the door for the price of an easy Dexterity check, don't go for an hour and a half Initiative rolls back and forth slogfest because OMG bossfight I wanted to try this build so bad. We have shit to do here.Not pretending it's the best thing ever for everyone but it is to me. I spent 400+ hours in my Uni years DMing a D20 System game and I had my fair share I assure you.
>>98614925>We just have mazes with orcs them. They were put there by the Orc God named Rape-EyeBased.
>>98617642> If they can only "attack" then they attack however they plausibly try to and the fantasy is just a roll away.Right, so you describe you are disarming the skeleton, but RAW your attack stil does 1d8 damage and not disarming, no? So...What would be the end result?
>Pozzo now marketing on hereI'd say that's a new low but is it really.
>>98617642Disarmimg was never restricted by feats nogaymes.
>>98617683A fluffy story driven outcome decided entirely by the GM without consulting a chart or rolling on a table, of course!
>>98617642it sounds like youre playing a pbta game
>>98617683If you describe disarming the skeleton either you took time and puzzle solving skill to make sure the dice go your way, either you didn't and it's going to be a matter of life and death. They won't be any damage because it's not what you're trying to do here anyway.So if you top its old bones with a dusty bookshelf and try to pry open its dead hand to remove the sword while its still buried under the books, we roll under your Strength which is probably 16 vs rolling above or equal its AAC 12 if you were trying to do that in a fair fight. You can see your odds aren't the same by order of magnitudes here. So one gameplay was more solid than the other and it was the out of the character sheet one. Meanwhile I roll for damage to check if its still unalive and if yes I roll its Save against Paralysis to check when it gets out of this mess. There's rules and process, I'm bound and shackled but I can discuss odds with you instead of checking my rulebook and flipping pages nervously while you wait.>>98617844I DMed two PbtA games and it's an unfair beast: it pretends to be rules light but it's only on the player side. The DM has to know every single players' Moves because they aren't allowed to name then when using them so the DM has to recognize his players are actually trying to use one here. With OSE I read the situation and apply common sense. So if a player says "I stay behind the group to check on something" I don't answer "wait are you trying to use your Me, Myself and I move?", I just say "right you better have your own torch and if your still by yourself in 10 minutes you'll have your very own Wandering Monster check".You don't naturally unfold a story in a PbtA game: you always check for Moves, so players always have their nose in their character sheet and feel really limited by it. Plus it's really artificial, with its own BS terminology to make sure you remember you are managing a game and not living it. DM-wise, it's always in the way.
>>98617732Not strictly D20 and not strictly feats but Disarm was definitely behind a paywall in these two bitches from the D&D 3.5 era.
>>98617504Player>I bait it to jump on me and as it pounces I dash forward to pin it on the wall with all my weight while I try desperately to plunge my sword in its throat while my face is so close to it I can smell the rotten dead meat stuck between its teethA good DM>yeah that's great, now roll a d20 for attack and what's your THAC0?It is implied your character does everything to land a hit.Don't let players cheat the combat rules.
>>98618238If you want them to keep playing like that, you gotta throw your players a vibe here and there.A +2 circumstantial bonus is easy to throw in, or you could give them more interactive backgrounds, so the action itself produces the advantage.
>>98618238For this example that was my very point. I don't want any of that "I attack"/"I use [feat]": tell me what you do and I adjudicate the situation. In this specific case, an attack calling for an attack roll. It's a lively description but gameplay-wise nothing smart or out of the box that calls for ruling.
>>98618141>[players] aren't allowed to name then when using themSure they are. But they also must describe what they are doing in fiction.
>>98618278>More interactive backgroundsMy table is too dense to think it through but I still daydream about a fabled Dark Messiah player that will kick my mobs into braseros and out of windows.
>>98618297Fuck I did it all wrong! Thanks anon. Still it was way too "abstracted" and codified to the point you feel like moving pieces if you get what i mean?In my example the player would now have to say "You know what people say about me: it's always Me Myself and I *wink wink*" so I still have to know the Move to make sure the trigger is right and what that entails. Meaning I'm shuffling my quick reference sheets when I want to be DMing.You reckon I should give the system another chance? Or it will be wasted anyway?
>>98614925Come home, white man.
>>98614925>It's dark brutal>No slavery
>>98617642>1. If you have "feat" in your game then you restrict your players. Either they have the disarm feat and they can try that either they don't have it and then though luck. If they can only "attack" then they attack however they plausibly try to and the fantasy is just a roll away.So you do it like demon lord and have a bunch of basic bitch maneuvers literally anyone can try instead of gating all of it behind feats>2. Having a single static attack roll means it sucks to say "I attack". You want to stack so much cards in your deck the DM doesn't even bother asking for a roll or at least gives you some fat situational bonus or even roll something else stupid easy insteadYou know for all the bullshit about "player skill" in OSR it sure fucking relies a lot on sucking off the GM.
>>98614925>It's dark brutal, and you could write several encyclopedias about it
>>98614925I wish there was a middleground between California Fantasy and Episode 1 of Goblin Slayer simulator
>>98618376>It's dark brutal>No Slavery>It's dark brutal>Half the rulers are girlbosses>It's dark brutal>The darkest Africa colony got BLM'd and became a perfect native nation>It's dark brutal>The hell-pit got closed and it's greatest danger is bureaucracy, overseen by a hijab-wearing woman>It's dark brutal>Half the women in the main pantheon are in a lesbian threesome>It's dark brutal>Pic relatedI'm actually fascinated at where OP got his lore. Everything he's insisting about the system and setting haven't been the case for over 7 years. It's been turned into a pure Weenie Hut Jr. Adventure for neurotic homosexuals.>>98618510There's plenty of those. Shadow of the Weird Wizard and WHFRP 4e for example.
>>98617642>2. Having a single static attack roll means it sucks to say "I attack". You want to stack so much cards in your deck the DM doesn't even bother asking for a roll or at least gives you some fat situational bonus or even roll something else stupid easy instead.I'm not interested in playing mother-may-I with attack roll bonuses.And genuinely, if I wanted to do shit like this, you know what I wouldn't be playing? Dungeons and fucking dragons, a game that does not reward you for dramatic action beyond the capricious temporary bonuses of a GM.God I fucking hate dungeons and dragons players. You all recognize your game sucks, but you adamantly refuse to play anything else. You have 400 fucking hours in d20 system Gming experience and you're arguing if the shit sandwich tastes better fried or grilled.At least the people who play overly mechanical bullshit version of D&D at least can point to a game mechanic and say "I like how this mechanic works." They're still eating the shit sandwich but they're saying "dude the sauce is fire though." You're over here gesturing at the concept of roleplaying and acting like it's some feature unique to your version of the shit sandwich and not a facet of every roleplaying game that fucking exists.
>>98614925Seems like a fagfest. Wasnt there supposed to be a mmorpg
>>98617540>And how does having only attack as viable options help that?If you want a mechanical example of how 'I attack' works into good stuff you can look at stuff like DCC's Mighty Deed of Arms.
>>98614925There is no difference between Paizo's Fighter and OSR's Fighter in that example. PF2e's classes are basically nothingburgers.
>>98618549>You all recognize your game sucks, but you adamantly refuse to play anything else.That guy is NOT escaping Samsara.
>>98618520>WHFRP>Not Episode 1 of GOblin Slayer SimulatorIt's edgy garbage just like GS Episode 1. If it's not noblebright hopecore it's not worth playing.
>>98619371If you think whf is goblin slayer edgy you don't know anything about the setting, or you're a retard.
>>98618484>Mother may I ?It's not at all like that. It's players asking "wait, what happens if..." like in any game and instead of flipping through 120+ pages I make a reasonable guess anyone can agree with or discuss. The GM arsenal boils down to X in dY chances, d% chances, roll under your Attribute, roll above your Saving Throw.So if I say "I rolled the merchant's stock list and he only has an old rope" I can add "you inspect it and guess there's a 1 in 6 chance of it breaking under heavy weight" instead of trying to find the equipment section of the DMG then Wear and Tear pages then hopefully something relevant while everybody blinks at me in silence. If someone says "ackshually that should be 1 in 10 because I saw this documentary about rope and they're extremely resistant" I can say "yeah okay, let's say 1 in 10, it doesn't mean much anyway: you guys know you have to be careful with it" instead of "I don't care it's 1 in 6 because this almighty author said so and no one can ever question his work he must have a degree in rope or something".They never ask if they may because they very well know it's an open world and they may. What they ask is probable consequence for their action and the odds.>>98618549>food comparisonKek. Reddit this way buddy.>3.5 players can say "I like how this game mechanic works".I like how rolling under Attribute works. Now what? Did you really believed there was no rules at all? Are you this clueless about the topic being discussed here.>assuming stuff and yelling at clouds.Yawn.You missed the point this much I just know you're not a DM.
>>98617642huh, I wonder where I look to see if I have a molotov cocktail and to find my dexterity score?
>>98618141meanwhile, in a good gameFlashy Move : Performing a fighting technique like disarming or tripping an opponent. Use a regular attack roll against your opponent’s active defense or one of their physical Abilities; the GM decides whether to use Agility, Might, or Toughness, depending on what you’re trying to do.
>>98618238Nah.
>>98618282No. I'll tell you what I do, and I'll tell you how to adjudicate it.
>>98617512Stamina being a core game mechanic kept poisons, radiation, and diseases deadly while making healing more impactfulMulti-attacks being an option at the start and gear levelling making fighter options at level up more impactful.The stamina system encouraged longer sessions with no long rests hindering spell caster supremacy by denying them spell slot regains organically.While not utilized well, having two different ACs for physical and energy based attacks was a good idea.>I found the setting boringNigger, it's an entire fucking universe with unlimited planets that can be as serious, horrific, or slapstick you want. If it was boring your group was shit or you played an established adventure (Paizo never makes good adventures).
>>98618282Got it, yeah we agree thenthe feat part being adjudicated by the DM is unrealistic thoughthey are player facing paper buttons so if the game has any feats at all in any form it breaks the "tell me what your character does and I adjudicate the situation" whenever they are involved>>98618278>If you want them to keep playing like that, you gotta throw your players a vibe here and thereI want my players to be truly creative, lead monsters into traps, cause monster in-fights, deceive and bluff, make allies, use their surroundings.the example above is not about creative play, it's about hoping your "creative" description helps you cheat combat rules.not at my table
>>98618484>You know for all the bullshit about "player skill" in OSR it sure fucking relies a lot on sucking off the GM.I'm sorry you had to play with GMs like thatbut changing the system/playstyle will not fix an assholethe good news is you don't have to play with assholes, find a new tableThe default situation is DM being an impartial-referee-player, not the Dungeon Master of a BDSM club who bends everyone to kneel due self-esteem issues or whatever
>>98614925>It's dark brutal, and you could write several encylopedias about itMaybe it was, but then they removed slavery for woke reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if more edges were sanded off than remain.
>>98620188>be truly creative, lead monsters into traps, cause monster in-fights, deceive and bluff, make allies, use their surroundingsWhat I hear is>I want my players to fight like the Fell's Five didAnd I agree with you, that's how combat should go. But you have to bet them there by means of positive reinforcements.If they are all like "on my action, I attack", it makes sense to give a bonus for stupidly descriptive prose. Training wheels... If your players don't need them, I'm happy for you.
>>98619371WHFRP is Goblin Slayer Ep 1 simulator in that the players are also goblins.Warhammer Fantasy still keeps that dark humor 40k lost decades ago.
>>98614925Well, as a GM, given the choices between pf2e and 5e i would pick the first (even though it's like picking between a douche and turd sandwich) but pf2e vs OSR? The latter obviously nigger, you didn't specify a game vs a game but a game vs a whole game family with mostly cross compatible game content (even from later tsr editions of the game), the vast majority of which is GM facing (more stuff for me to use for making games). That said given actual freedom of choice i would NOT pick a deendee game, if you're in for something thematically adjacent (and depending on the type of gamestyle) i would run Cassic Fantasy (Mithras), Savage Pathfinder, Rolemaster, GURPS, WFRP, Hârnmaster, etc...Of course, if you you're a playeronly pig, all you may care is having an apparent buffet of (fake, because they're all exception based) options so you're going to pick the mongoloid choice.
>>98620226>But you have to bet them there by means of positive reinforcements... it makes sense to give a bonus for stupidly descriptive prose.you didn't think this through did you anon? you are literally reinforcing descriptive prose, so that's what you will be gettingin my experience loosing a party member and seeing that trying to [dice]roll over encounters will not work in their favor, is usually enough for the players to approach the very next encounter creatively.I'm going to reinforce a suggestion to push an enemy into a fire, flip the table to take cover behind, wedge the door with an axe to block it from openingI'm not going to reinforce>yeah so I do a wallrun followed by a backflip as I'm swinging off the chandelier and land on top of X [2 HD above players full HP] and finish him off with a single precisely placed stab to the eyethe former is creative play the latter is mother-may-I
>>98619717>Meanwhile in a good game, something basic like disarming an enemy is gatekept behind a perk.>Meanwhile in a good game, you ask "mother may I use Might instead of Agility for this roll?".Sure made me think anon.
>>98618520SotWW is almost the perfect system for me, and I'm hoping DLERC is able to clean up/fix the few problems I have with WW (mostly bloated damage dice by late game and some blatantly OP paths).
>>98620706Who are you quoting?
>>98620706Well?
>>98614925>Here's our game, we put big titty sluts front and center so you know it's good
>>98614925>Well I bet the lore is just coffee shop fanfics>It's dark brutal, and you could write several encylopedias about itYou mean 15 years ago? Pf2e is all gaya and girlbosses now. Half the dwarven rules are women and another 3rd are xhe/theys
>>98617504>I snap my fingers and win the game while shitting a glittering rainbow directly in the fighter's mouth before we hold hands and frollick into the sunset giggling knowingly amongst ourselvesMother May I is not a game.
>>98614925If you think Pathfinder is crunchy you wouldn't have survived the 2000's dude. This was basically the second most approachable system out there. And 2e isn't remotely crunchy by today's standards either.
>>98621674Man it really sucks how pozzed the setting got. I still remember talking about Greta or Arueshalae with the General, or dreaming of a game set in the Land of the Linnorm Kings.
>>98622409yeah it is lil bitch
>>98614925>It's literally the most complicated, crunchy, tactical RPG ever madePaizo didn't make Phoenix Command...
>>98614925What was the point of this thread?
>>98614925Pathfinder is the worst ttrpg. For people too retarded to stop playing a d20 game that's just D&D 3.5 again but too pretentious to just play 5e.
>>98623830PF/3.5 has a lot more options than 5e though, and 5e has its own set of problems. I will say that 5e gets a really bad rap and some of it is justified, but it's unironically my favorite DND edition to run due to ease of play and how streamlined it is. You don't get bogged down referencing rules or having combat slow to a crawl.That said, if you think PF1e is bad, you'll be in for a treat if you ever look up 2e. It feels like they took DND 4e and made it 10x worse, and the only reason it's successful is due to tranny and furry pandering, who in turn make modules that automate literally everything for online play. Playing 2e IRL is 50% referencing rules and hopelessly tracking conditions, single target modifiers, etc and having a single combat encounter take an hour+. Playing 2e on a VTT is like playing a shitty MMO, complete with Paizo publishing erratas that feel like MMO patch balance notes that give off a feel of "no fun allowed"
>>98615132I'm just sad Starfinder is dead. 1e killed itself with the "build everything out of credits" economy stupidity and ship combat being ass, then 2e went "Hey, our skittermander adventures are popular (They're literally free) let's lean into that and remake the setting as sparkledogs in Guardians of the Galaxy."
>>98614925Imagine I attached gigachad.jpg, I'm lazy >Oh no! The dark demon god Rape-Eye has filled the maze with orcs! I'd better clear it out before any wandering maidens get lost in the maze and have their eyes raped!
>>98616308a few thousand dollars and some cents?
>>98619481>food comparisonShit's not a food, buddy. Try again.>I like how rolling under Attribute works. Now what? Did you really believed there was no rules at all? Are you this clueless about the topic being discussed here.>hurr durr I can make the dice go clicky clak so mechanics.You praised the system for its lack of mechanics, and once you were called out on this one you retreated behind "uh uh uh my game has target numbers" like that's a feature of the game and not something for it to exist as a game rather than just playing pretend. The fact that you need to roll beneath the target number rather than above it is a distinction without a difference.>You missed the point this much I just know you're not a DM.Correct in the sense that I am a GM, and on occasion an ST. I haven't run a game of D&D in years.
>>98624912>Oh no! The dark demon god Rape-Eye has filled the maze with orcs! I'd better clear it out before any wandering maidens get lost in the maze and have their eyes raped!
>>98625946I wanted to signal your post for trolling outside of /b/ then I realized you are genuinely retarded. Good luck friend, it's a tough world out there.
>>98617642>thinks playing with minxmaxing rollplayers is the system's problem
>>98614925Or you could do some of the worldbuilding yourself instead of asking for it to be handed to you on a silver platter. Works for either system.
>>98619717The real problem here is that the GM has to come up with an effect on the spot that:1. Isn't too powerful2. Is still strong enough to be worth using over a regular attack3. Isn't abusable by being repeatedly used4. Is consistent with similar actions that were used beforeThat's why an action like that should come with some extra rules or guidance.
>>98631828The world building of professional devs is going to be far better on average than the world building of random guys. And even if they were of comparable quality (they aren't) the world building of the devs expands on itself. Because it's all canon things can expand on each other and form a web. The world building of random guys disappears the moment you switch table.
>>98631901Yeah this is why we have rules in the first place.If GM's making solutions on the spot was workable we wouldn't even have rules about attributes, hit chance, damage rolls, and class abilities. The rule book would simply be blank and the player would simply describe what they want to do and the GM would invent the math and rules right there on the spot like a genie.GM inventing rules is for corner cases.
