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What of barbarians?

>>98629695
Did you even read as far as the second paragraph before replying?

>>98629681
>"Fighter" is the class for idiots
It's the class for beginners or people who enjoy the elegance of simplicity. Or, for people who just wanna kill shit, which sometimes that's what you want in a TTRPG.
>the low IQ people all retreat from every other option and head towards the fighter bringing their low IQ ways.
I mean I guess? Though I think something like Barbarian would suit better, maybe even Monk because you don't even have to fuck around with Weapon Masteries or armor or any of that. And hey, who can blame them, as of 2024 in D&D monk is the best martial.
>fighters have the smallest floor for roleplaying.
They have the lowest floor and the highest cieling. Anyone can make a fighter as you describe, but a great roleplayer can make a fighter that's the best character in the party in that regard because they're so open-ended, unlike wizard who objectively is a nerd who reads books all the time.
>they prefer passive stat gains and a single 'attack' over a variety of options and resources
Except they have to pick their Masteries too, but sometimes you want simplicity. There's elegance in it, and to ignore that is a midwit position. Maybe I want to play the game instead of spending every round considering which spell is the best one to ruin the encounter or stopping every 5 minutes out of combat to pick out the most broken spell on my list to trivialize a non-combat encounter. Maybe, I just wanna get in there and get my hands dirty. Though as I said, Monk exists and is better.

>>98629681
How did these low IQ individuals affect your last session? Describe in detail

>>98629681
>>98629716
>"I attack this body part. or I use this maneuver"
The latter is only available to Battlemaster though, which is exclusive to Fighter. The former, well, that's not a thing in most systems because it's pretty clunky most of the time. Regional HP is annoying to track and even more annoying to interact with. I'd know, I made a Fallout TTRPG with it. The high IQ play is, of course, to choose a system that doesn't waste your time (your most valuable resource) with minutia. It's not about being unable to comprehend it, it's comprehending it and realizing it's an unnecessary mechanic in almost every TTRPG. Smart people itemize. Smart people take the most efficient path. Midwits prefer complexity for its own sake because they think it makes them look more intelligent than they are.
>no cool anime stuff or being decked in magical gear.
The former is true, the latter is false. Fighters NEED magic kit to keep up. They also have the best uses of a lot of it. Weapons and Armor for example are a cornerstone of what defines an individual Fighter. How your Fighter fights, what they fight with, that defines them.
>no options in combat
They have the one that matters most: Kill the enemy quickly and efficiently.
>no magical gear
They do need it, yes, but they also get other abilities like shrugging off failed saves or healing themselves for large amounts of HP or taking an additional action or having a wide variety of equipment they can use to adapt to any situation.
>ail to compete with a wizard who's toolbox is ever growing and who's spell slots eventually grow as unlimited as their 'attack' option
They still have limitations, and their slots will never truly be unlimited. And fighters recover on Short Rests; they don't need an 8 hour nap just to get all their abilities back.

>>98629681
>>98629716
>>98629733
>similantiously nerf casters+make the fighter damage comically large
If you think a fighter doing "Comically large" amounts of damage is stupid, just look at casters in 5e/2024. They do more damage because of AoEs. Now, the hard talk nobody wants to have is that 4e solved this with martial Powers like Whirlwind, which you do note apparently fighters don't want which is a silly thing to say.
>The entire martial caster divide is downstream of the retards.
It's downstream of 3.5's ivory tower game design and timmy card abilities, and a bias for casters among playtesters.

>>98629748
>Now, the hard talk nobody wants to have is that 4e solved this with martial Powers like Whirlwind, which you do note apparently fighters don't want which is a silly thing to say.
I mean, it doesn't seem that silly to say. You're correct in that nobody wants to talk about how 4e solved all this, but that's because a bunch of people hated 4e specifically for having that solution.

>It's downstream of 3.5's ivory tower game design and timmy card abilities,
By trying to turn D&D character creation into MtG deckbuilding, the result was that Fighter became the timmy class. It's for the newbie getting into the game, or the guy who doesn't want to think very hard.
Casters are the johnny/spike options. Either doing weird combos with spells and features to do something fun and interesting, or by just eliminating enemies far more quickly and efficiently than a Fighter ever could.

All of this just serves to reinforce OP's point though. 3.5 made Fighter the class for low IQ players. 4e tried to fix it by giving them options and all of those players complained and revolted.

>>98629821
>All of this just serves to reinforce OP's point though. 3.5 made Fighter the class for low IQ players. 4e tried to fix it by giving them options and all of those players complained and revolted.

You are the first poster I have seen that actually gets my central premise. I appreciate that. I laid out the premise in the first paragraph and repeated it in the last. But no one got it. They just focused on random sentences.

Low IQ people pick wizards because they want to roleplay someone smart.
Or Druids because of cute animal companions in case of women.

>>98629922
Managing a bunch of spell slots has very high IQ floor. If your idea was correct we would see people constantly ask for wizards and druids to be flatlined into classes that have nothing to keep track and no choices. Because that is how low IQ people want any class to be regardless of the flavor. If these classes were lower IQ than fighter we should expect them to have even lower skill floors than the fighter. This is not the case.

Your thinking is myopic.

>>98629695
>puckeeslop

>>98629876
>>98629821
That doesn't make Fighter "Low IQ", it makes it simple. And as I said, denying the elegance of simplicity is the midwit stance. I'd rather it be a simple option that's accessible to new players than a bloated mess of complicated features and mechanics, or worse core mechanics like locational damage added that are almost universally dogshit and/or tedious to interact with.

Obviously, the ideal is somewhere in the middle (which was my approach for my Overhauled 2024 classes/mechanics) but moderation? in modern day? Never going to happen, officially at least.

>>98629945
Yeah, so they fail at managing the slots. Instead of whining about the class, they just whine about getting long rest after they go nova to kill five goblins.
They don't demand simplifying the classes because the reputation of being a smart class for smart players is precisely why they pick it to compensate for their real life ≤90 IQ.

>>98629945
It really doesn't. You're going to go on google, pick the best spells in the game, write those into your book, and if you find more great, you're gonna write those into your book too. You'll take as many rituals as you can to and never prep them, and it doesn't help flavor-wise Wizard has utterly dogshit flavor.

Like I'll tell you the spells you need to be a successful wizard: Shield, Fireball, Sleep, Color Spray, Charm Person, Hold Person, Fly, Knock, Magic Missile, any of the Graviturgy spells from Wildemount because they're all broken, Wall of Force, Forcecage. You don't need Mage Armor because you take Fighter 1 for proficiency in heavy armor and just wear that for a base 18 AC, 23 with Shield active. You grab Toll the Dead and Fire Bolt for damage, Mage Hand for shenanigans, and you're basically good to go. Any other prepared spells depends on what your party is about to go do, and you take as many rituals as you can into your book so you can just cast those without preparing them at a 10 minute casting time increase. Your subclass should be Diviner (For the dice) or Illusionist (To make your illusions real), maybe Necromancer if you want to take summon spells and be the most annoying faggot ever.

Wizard is a fairly straightforward class and its flavor is some of the worst in the game (You're a huge loser nerd who reads books with no social skills and no secondary ability beyond your magic like the cool casters like Druid, Cleric, or Sorcerer), it's absolutely the midwit pick. Midwits pick Wizard to pretend to be smart, then go look up guides online for the most broken spells and combos and focus on those.

>>98629947
Simplistic taste in gaming is low IQ. Your idea of 'too complicated and bloated' is what a high IQ person calls "a comfortable middle." Because for their larger brain can handle it.

Empathy takes high IQ, since you lack it, you think everyone processes information just like you. That's why you think smart people look at list of spells and get frustrated the same way you do.

>>98629959
To repeat

>If these classes were lower IQ than fighter we should expect them to have even lower skill floors than the fighter. This is not the case.

To explain why your point is refuted: Your point was about long resting. If everyone is long resting the casters still have a much higher skill floor than the fighter.

>>98629966
Your "here is the floor for playing a caster" required so much text. The floor for playing a fighter only requires the text "Use attack"

Your body of text just proves I am right that fighters are a lower floor than casters. And obviously the lowest floor will attract the lowest IQ. I have proven myself right with such power that I did not even need need to read most of your post.

>>98629876
It does a pretty good job of summing up a lot of the pitfalls that I've seen when people try to talk about the martial/caster divide and how to address it. At most I disagree with some of the wording.

I'd say the most obvious and recurring example of this that I often see around here is
>my humble farmboy fighter will shoot a single crossbow bolt and kill the archmage!
The exact setup varies, but it encompasses a lot of the aspects. The tactics are basic, ignore how much defensive magical gear a high level wizard would have, and rarely consider any spell more potent than a Fireball.

>>98629947
The correct answer would be to make accessible NPC versions of the main four classes. A Warrior that just hits things, a Priest that just heals, etc.
There's no need for a "simple option that's accessible to new players" to have 20 levels of progression. At some point the training wheels need to come off.

>That doesn't make Fighter "Low IQ", it makes it simple.
OP's premise is that the Fighter is simple because it is designed to account for 'Low IQ players'. I think the term Timmy like you used here works just as well though. Because a Timmy player describes the same sort of mindset. It's the player who doesn't want to think too hard.
You can praise the simplicity all you like, but it doesn't disprove OP's point at all

>>98629716
>It's the class for beginners or people who enjoy the elegance of simplicity. Or, for people who just wanna kill shit, which sometimes that's what you want in a TTRPG.

That should actually be the role of the Berserker(Barbarian). That is a class with a built in justification for "I don't know anything and just kill stuff."

>>98629748
>It's downstream of 3.5's ivory tower game design and timmy card abilities, and a bias for casters among playtesters.

Among designers actually. Playtesters actually tend to like more complex/tactical fighters, but the designers have pigeon holed it into the beginner class.

>>98630027
NTA but honestly I think the problem is that the current implementation basically just...doesn't respect the fiction at all. People simultaneously want to be le plucky and clever normie that dunks on mages and superhuman monsters while also fighting on the same level as those mages without getting a shitload of magic gear to close the gap. There's also the fact that this ''normie'' fighter gameplay also boils down to doing autoattack over and over again and not actually using any fighting techniques or proper tactics(OSR subverts this but speaking to these guys it's often kind of just ''mother may I: the game'' instead of actually giving the player default options)

I don't even have problems with normies being weaker, I ran a Hunter: The Vigil game that was basically low level gang warfare against wignat vampires and it was fun but the thing here is you're also expected to possibly be outclassed by even a fucking vampire instead of this bizarro shit where you're playing batman with zero prep time in a party with Dr.Strange

>>98630024
Okay then.

"Spam cantrip"

Works better than an attack at level 5+.


>>98630027
>Characters having different progression speeds in a TTRPG
the biggest piece of dogshit.

>>98629681
>Low IQ player's can't into tactics so they prefer passive stat gains and a single 'attack' over a variety of options
Yes, I prefer doing damage over tripping a monster and dropping the sun on it (which is the equivalent of two sword swings lmao scrub wizard).

>>98630206
What have I become
My sweetest friend?

>>98629994
I see where the confusion comes from, you think CLASSES can have "low IQ". That's wrong, classes can be simple or complex, but IQ score is something only a human can have ie the PLAYER.

>>98630206
A lore accurate wizard could make 100 fighters drop their weapons or annihilate them with one blast.

>>98629681
You're wrong
>they prefer passive stat gains and a single 'attack'
Fighter is a class that lives and dies by feat selection. Sure there are less options in any given moment, but the correct choice as a caster is always fireball anyway so its not like you're doing any calculations on it
Speaking of, using GWM correctly actually does require an AC estimate being matched against a probability curve to maximize damage. Same for positioning to manage dps vs health attrition. The fighter is doing more analysis than the caster on most turns

>>98630187
Yeah, it's not that I don't understand the people who want that sort of thing. But it's more that there's a complete lack of understanding in terms of the sort of game they're playing. A high level Fighter is already superhuman in a lot of ways, but it's often restricted just to taking/dealing damage in a fight.

This would probably be improved if the game drew a more defined line as to where the martial characters were firmly out of the realm of being mundane, making it more clear that their characters were growing into borderline demigods.
Though I also have a feeling doing so would cause its own round of complaints where those players are upset that their character who can punch a t-rex to death is no longer labeled as the plucky underdog.

>>98630247
>those players are upset that their character who can punch a t-rex to death is no longer labeled as the plucky underdog
Which is just stupid to me. If you're a normal guy you aren't punching a fucking t-rex to death with your bare hands. Try to fist fight a t-rex or a dragon in Mythras without magic and see what happens.

Really the problem is DnD trying to pretend it's grounded while it's anything but.

>>98629966
>you take Fighter 1 for proficiency in heavy armor and just wear that for a base 18 AC, 23 with Shield active.
You'd need the stat prerequesites and a feat to cast in heavy armour and you can just get cloaks and bracers or warding or whatever. AC doesnt even matter past level 8 anyway, its all resistances

>>98630226
My point is fighter ends up being the class that low IQ pick. Its the simplest to grasp at a basic level. I covered that with rogue/barb in my OP. And while the fighter could be given a ton of things high IQ people like (complex tactical choices as a baseline) the low IQ people push against it.

I have no confusion. That's on you for not figuring out the thesis despite it being mentioned at the start and end of the OP. But at least you are trying to do that which is why I am restating for your benefit. Most others are just picking out random sentences and going on tangents with them.

>>98629681
That's only an issue with shitty systems like DnD.

>>98630326
It's such a wide spread issue it goes into video games. In any electronic video game with classes there will be some idiot who just wants to ignore all mechanics that is not doing 1 attack over and over with a 2h weapon. He will also seem to have no sense of roleplaying or even basic grasp of the lore. This will be the case even if it's a game where the martial system has a ton of advanced things you can do.

The low IQ fighter. They will also the same thing where they try to say that simplisticity is a "virtue" and that makes them 'smart' for wanting to just bash 1 button while the people who do more elaborate things are 'dumb' because it 'doing that hurts your head but bashing one button is fun'.

>>98630387
Never happened to me playing Stormbringer, Pendragon, or Cyberpunk 2020. The "warriors" always could do much more than just spamming one attack.

>>98629681
150 IQ with a fighter character here. AMA

>>98629945
Picking the best 5 spells and 12 niche spells in an era where you can Google the answers is what morons think is high IQ.

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>>98629695

>>98629681
Naw, its just that a Fighter tends to be the easiest and simplest class to play in most games. Whenever your product or edition jumping Refs try to rope you into a game, you can just have fun playing a fighter who hits things, without having to waste yet another stack of cash on rule books, or days of your precious spare time learning yet another set of rules, before the ref jumps onto another system/edition. Some of us have real lives and families outside our imaginary games of make believe.

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OP seems to be the type to think that him picking a wizard means he's got high IQ.

>>98629681
Primarily a D&D issue. Doesn't exist in the games I GM, and in one of them, doing melee is decidedly the most complicated approach to armed conflict. Magic is much much simpler.

>>98629716
>as of 2024 in D&D monk is the best martial.
WTF happened in 2024?

>>98629945
>Managing a bunch of spell slots has very high IQ floor
Nigger that's just counting.

>>98629945
>flatlined into classes that have nothing to keep track and no choices.
In 3.5 that was called a Warlock, a mindless blaster with limitless uses of their powers, all they had to choose was from a short list. So, the thing you say doesn't exist, has existed for longer than you've probably been alive.

>>98630271
>Its the simplest to grasp at a basic level.
No that would be barbarian. Fighter in 5e has literally one simple option, Champion. Barbarian has maybe 3 options that aren't mindlessly simple.

>>98633526
You kind mindless casters. But you will find more mindless fighters, at lower levels of mindlessness. And most important you will find the 'fighter' players more enthusiastically pushing for it far more than the 'nonfighter' players.

You do this classic low IQ thing were you find one thing that contradicts an idea and think it invalidates the entire idea. Like thinking that since tall Asians exist the idea that Asians are short must be wrong. This thread seems to bring out a lot of low IQs doing the classic low IQ behavior as a defense mechanism.

>>98629695
>puckee aka redditor pucke℮21 spamming his commission again
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1asljbu/art_comm_agarian_warrior_by_pedro_silva/
https://desuarchive.org/_/search/image/hzEJ4gtiMhFPMlGOcTas7Q/
>posted 27 times since February 2024

>>98633904
>You kind mindless casters.
Just a tip, don't make a post calling people stupid if you mess up two words in, it's a bad look.

>you will find more mindless fighters, at lower levels of mindlessness
The second part is debatable, but the first is simply because it's the class most players start with, and the game doesn't weed out the morons until you actually play for a while. In fact, the first part is heavily debatable as well, because BG3 made a bunch of people want to try D&D and they had their own ideas about what class was the best already.

>the 'fighter' players more enthusiastically pushing for it
No, you find the Batfags pushing for it, the retards who think noncaster has to mean mundane, because they want to put Batman into everything. Those are the morons who think a simple class forces you to think more creatively, but then they never actually do that, because Batfags are retarded.

>tall Asians
And here you're so desperate to talk shit about anyone who doesn't mindlessly agree with you, that you ignore that I only responded to one part of your post, because it's the only part I gave a shit about. It's also the wrong analogy because I didn't use the example of one deviation from the norm to pretend the whole thing was wrong, I pointed out that the thing you said didn't exist, has existed for a long time, and was a commonly used class in the previous edition. That is not a "well it's not 100% true all the time so nyeh" argument, that's a "you are objectively wrong and making absolute statements like that is retarded" argument.

>>98629681
>Low IQ player's
>a wizard who's toolbox is ever growing and who's spell slots
Fascinating that you typed all that so you could jerk off about other people with "low IQ", but you don't know how to use an apostrophe.

>>98629721
He started throwing his own feces while sobbing and screaming incoherently, writhing in his high chair and unable to destroy the universe which so unfairly required him to tell everyone at the table that his AC was 10 because the party's fighter slapped him for being insanely rude for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Personally, I don't think that's the fighter's fault, but maybe someone could argue that technically the fighter affected the situation.

>>98629681
It pisses me off, but this is unironically what WOTC thinks.
The 5e Fighter was going to be an interesting class with battlemaster maneuvers baked in, but they thought new players are retarded and would just be confused by the class actually having options.
Based on the reception to 4e, they might have been right.
But it still annoys me as someone who likes Fighters thematically.

>>98629695
This dude looks buff tho

>>98629715
Why would anyone read your unoriginal shitpost?

>>98634505
You asked a question. I told you it was anticipated and already answered in the second paragraph. It made you look dumb and lazy. And now your "aktually I didn't care about my own question!" is your defense mechanism

>>98629748
They hated him because he told them the truth.
This entire thread is full of midwits high on revenge of the nerds copium.
No you see it’s the ELEGANCE of a dogshit character, no people are just too STUPID.
Meanwhile non DnD systems and 4e effortlessly solved this issue a billion years ago, yet 3eaboos act like there is some grand mystery to unravel.
Your system is crap.
That’s it.
And people wouldn’t even care if there was an armor wearing, sword swinging class that isn’t crap.
But the revenge of the nerd midwit crowd can’t abide by it
>b-but paladin
Yeah and why is That „good“
>s-smite damage
Ok buddy

>>98629821
>those players complained and revolted
Im sure it was those players that revolted and not fucking casterfag toddlers like you, who can’t stop gushing about their consoomer cardboard funko pop hobby

>>98630187
This post exemplifies this thread perfectly:
Invent a demographic of gruggs that want to play a terrible class deliberately and then make assertions from this claim.
This would be much more convincing if this claim would not go against all evidence we have from the 5e playtest.

>>98629681
>2026
>Still playing class-based dungeon fantasy
Do-better.

>>98633520
NTA but "just counting" does filter around a quarter of population.
(Those people usually aren't going to play a TTRPG though.)

>>98633904
>This thread seems to bring out a lot of low IQs doing the classic low IQ behavior as a defense mechanism.
This thread is OP doing exactly this.

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>>98629681
Boasting about being high IQ is an extremely midwit thing to do Keith.