TQ:
Always loved the X-Wing series as a kid, reread it recently this year and it still holds up in my opinion. The ones by Aaron Allston with Wraith Squadron were definitely my favorites, and his other star wars books were always the favorites in whatever other series, like the 2 in the NJO series, Rebel Stand and Rebel Dream I think were the names.

I also in general liked NJO, don't understand the hate it got. The Vong felt like a legit threat which made the books exciting to read, never knew who might die. I also liked Legacy of the Force, with Jacon going Sith and all the other shit with the 2nd GCW.

Fate of the Jedi was okay at best, I won't defend that series.

>>98677634
Interesting. Personally I also thought NJO was decent and overhated, but I'll take Fate over Legacy any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Legacy felt less like a narrative and more like an argument between the EU authors over the nature of the Force and the Dark Side where the "hurr durr yin yang balance bro" side wouldn't shut the fuck up and accept they were wrong. By the time we got to Fate it felt like someone had finally put their foot down and told the balance side of it to shut the fuck up or fuck the fuck off, and they had also finally 86'd that deranged hag Traviss.

Also Lost Tribe of the Sith is legitimately good, fite me.

>>98678226
I won't fight you on the Tribe of lost Sith, they are very cool and one of the things I liked about Fate.

I didn't like Abeloth at all, but I also don't like the Mortis arc in clone wars. It's dumb to me that these exist and ruin the mystery of the force. Anything that demystifies or explains the force I don't really like though, I prefer it to be mysterious (lol midichlorians). I also admittedly gloss over force shit in the books, because again hate it being explained, so I definitely didn't notice the Ying yang balance fight shit you mentioned.

I also didn't like Daala somehow becoming the leader of the GFFA(?), her past was just kinda forgotten by the everyone. It's been a while since I read it so definitely forgot a lot of the details.

I've noticed the traviss hate a lot in the threads, I'll need to re-read the books again because I guess I wasn't paying attention to what everyone hated, I didn't mind any of her books.

File: kundri-fathom-main_001a2f5c.jpg (142 KB, 1919x1080)

142 KB JPG

Star Wars finally gives the fans what they want: Confederate Anne Frank

File: more realistic pregnant a(...).jpg (1.44 MB, 3500x2400)

1.44 MB JPG

>>98679732
Kek.

File: HRiXy9UbwAAMxJk.jpg (160 KB, 1280x1280)

160 KB JPG

>>98679732
she turns into bin laden later on

>>98679732
Is she sick or naturally green?

>>98680062
worse, she's indian

>>98680062
this >>98680070 and she's patient zero for a force hive-mind virus transmitted by bug bites.

>>98680229
I like how we didn’t need to have a cutscene where Dooku twists his moustache while explaining to Typhon everything is going as planned.
It’s just part of the wider narrative that everyone is a bunch of dupes and the Infinite Coil are delusional cultists being manipulated by a bigger space wizard.

>>98680006
It’s fun to hear all of Runa’a banter. Sounds a lot like some of the various Anon campaigns that people have posted throughout the years.

Of course, like those campaigns, she would be miserable to spend time with for more than an hour or two.

Getting close to the end of Zero Co.

I wonder if we ever will get a Sep game, so that we can see more heroes on both sides... There are more playable Imp scenarios in gaming than playable Sep.

>>98680062
Both!

File: 9i0z9tfzznqg1.jpg (138 KB, 828x968)

138 KB JPG

>>98680006
>Outer Rim rights
Remember that Outer Rim worlds rejected ancap ayyys, but stuck with Empire even after Endor.

File: SevRanceTann.jpg (394 KB, 1200x1854)

394 KB JPG

>>98680727
>I wonder if we ever will get a Sep game, so that we can see more heroes on both sides... There are more playable Imp scenarios in gaming than playable Sep.
The issue is still hangs on Canon vs Legends.
EU gave seps plenty of auxillia troops in addition to droids, while TCW was less generous and Zero Company pretty much stole token pro-CIS aliens.

File: Tabletop_Simulator_Screen(...).png (3.78 MB, 1920x1080)

3.78 MB PNG

>>98681514
I love her

>>98683428
didn't she die like 1 month into the war

File: IMG_1266.png (1.92 MB, 900x1152)

1.92 MB PNG

>>98681460
You can’t have Greater Seswenna with a lesser Tarkin, that shit didn’t hold much and it didn’t last

firebomb eriadu

>>98684243

Yeah. The game she came from was interesting because it was released months after AOTC before 75% of what the clone wars are now were established. There's a lot of things like vehicles, plotlines, and characters that show up there and no where else.

>>98675973
>Which EU novel was your favorite when you were growing up
Probably the initial Rogue Squadron books by Stackpole, followed by Zahn and Allston.

As much as Corran Horn was later derided as a Gary Stu, he had fucking nothing on Wedge. Corran gets to be a (non-telekinesis, non-acrobatic) short Jedi. Meanwhile Stackpole had Wedge over here low-key tallying his total kill count in groups of ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR, and he still didn't have enough fucking space left on his X-wing to show them all. Child me loved it, and may have tried seeing if he could replicate it on a toy X-wing to see how many it would have actually been before running out of space.

>>98675973
>TQ
I really liked Rogue Planet.

Is there a full, comprehensive map of the Star Wars galaxy anywhere, including sectors and so on?
Preferably one that lets you zoom in and get all the little details.

I, Jedi.

Ive always liked preNJO Corran, and I'm a fan of Stackpoles action scenes and pacing. He also wrote the Blood of Kerensky trilogy which are my favorite battletech books.
The X-Wing series is obviously fantastic.
NJO was generally good, I think bringing in a prolific fantasy author to introduce the truly alien that was a touch of genius. Zonama Sekot and everything it touches was total garbage.

>>98687007
I, Jedi also benefits from "fixing" the otherwise pretty woeful Jedi Academy trilogy by retconning a bunch of stuff via Corran's perspective that makes Luke seem significantly less of a fucking retard.

>>98687379
Jedi Academy was the first EU novels I read, so I have a soft spot for it. Just found the whole trilogy at a local used book shop last year and re-read it.
Luke is kind of dumb in the books, though. Deciding that of all the places to found his academy, an ancient Sith temple with a spirit of a dark lord of the Sith living next door was the perfect location, and when one of his students tries to kill him and is then found dead in his room, having been burned from within by some supernatural force, his response is pretty much "huh, that's weird. Anyway, students don't go falling into dark side or that might happen to you".

File: HRiCl_lXgAQyRbf.jpg (193 KB, 1284x856)

193 KB JPG

fuck the republic

File: Spoiler Image (941 KB, 2480x3508)

941 KB JPG

>>98679732

BASED

But it still won't wash away the Sequels

>>98679947

Updated Anne Frank design btw

>>98675973
>Which EU novel was your favorite when you were growing up
When I was in elementary, my dad bought NJO Edge of Victory for my birthday because he knew I liked Star Wars, which was my gateway drug to the EU. I started going to Borders and using it like a library soon after. I read any kind of Star Wars books they had, from comics, encyclopedias, and even game guides. If it was Star Wars, I read it.
>did you reference it in any of your campaigns
Specifically? Once, based on EoV, I had a shamed and exiled (RIP Vua Rapuung) Mandalorian Warrior lead the party into a Mandalorian colonist camp to stop them from murdering locals. There was a moment in the fighting when the party could've saved the exiled Mando, but none of them noticed, so he died.

>>98679947
>>98688098
I'm out of the loop. wtf is even this?

>>98675973
>Blandor book series
The perfect torture tool for Star Wars fans that get sent to hell.

File: Brics.jpg (49 KB, 640x480)

49 KB JPG

>>98688619
I thought invention of brics and screws was perfect torture tool for TRVE STAR WARS FANS.

>>98688599
Fetish shit.

>>98688733
>>98688726
That much was obvious.

From where comes the relation to Confeds tho?

>>98679589
it was really super bizarre that Daala of all people came from nowhere and became head of state but not as bad as a series long conflict/war being resolved off page while Jaina was in a coma after killing her brother
>>98677634
I too liked the NJO series, lot of good books/characters in it and the X-wing series

>>98675973
I never really read any EU books because none of them interested me, the RC series did but everybody always told me it was horrible

>>98689092
The Medstar books weren't bad, if you prefer that era.

>>98689115
I'll co-sign that. It's MASH mashed up with Star Wars. I went in with no expectations and was charmed by them.

File: SpaceMercLum3.png (477 KB, 1280x676)

477 KB PNG

>>98689115
Isn't that the one that introduced the Oni of planet Uru in a throwaway line?

>>98688832
Ancient /his/ autism. I will not loredump you, I'm too lazy and bored. Look it up, I'm sure there's a video essay by a 1500 subscriber Youtuber out there.

When did clones swap from the long barrel dc15 as their main weapon to the dc15a
I'm talking in appearances/real life

>>98689069
>Daala of all people came from nowhere and became head of state
Literally Traviss. As soon as Traviss was gone, they fixed that.

>>98686887
You know, there are many Galaxy maps with the many trade routes, sectors, and major systems of note.

But few all at the same time and I've not seen a nice digital one like you are describing. Odd such a thing hasn't been made. With Disney working so hard to cause people to lose interest in the property, I kind of doubt someone will make such a thing at the current rate

>>98680062
>>98680070
>she

>>98679732
Nightsisters' magick was already difficult to fit into SW lore, but Infinite Coil, man, where do you even start

>>98691512
With Sith Alchemy? Abeloth? Any of the nameless horrors of the Unknown Regions? Nightsister magick was only ever "hard to fit into SW lore" for uncreative brainlets who failed to grasp that Star Wars is a fantasy setting in space, not sci-fi. Let me guess, you're a Clonefaggot?

>>98691539
NTA but is there any particular reason you're getting so defensive about "Wicca Shit doesn't fit with the setting"
The hairy feminist hippy chicks aren't going to sit on your dick because you defended their mother-goddess schtick being forced into settings she doesn't fit in bro.

And that's without even talking about what a shit fit the Witches of Dathomir are for the setting in general.
>Hey we've got a group of lightside users who keep sex slaves, isn't that a bit weird?
>Nah, they're men so it doesn't count, lmao

>>98691512
>but Infinite Coil, man, where do you even start
The Sickness/Blackwing virus?

>>98691743
>And that's without even talking about what a shit fit the Witches of Dathomir are for the setting in general.
>Hey we've got a group of lightside users who keep sex slaves, isn't that a bit weird?
>Nah, they're men so it doesn't count, lmao
That was already established in the Courtship of Princess Leia, early in the EU. If anything, modern SW material seems to have largely forgotten that the Nightsisters are supposed be just one clan of Dathomiri witches, with the majority of the clans being light side users. If they hadn't had a small appearance in one of the "Tales of" animations (which was probably specifically because people complained about Filoni having apparently forgotten than non-Nightsister Dathomirians exist), I would have assumed that the Dathomirians have been retconned into all being Nightsisters.

>>98691901
>That was already established in the Courtship of Princess Leia, early in the EU.
Well, yes, what did you think I was talking about?
I'm saying Dave Wolverton is a dogshit writer who included something that didn't fit in the setting in the hopes his wife would let him watch from the corner seat.
It's no coincidence that the Hapans and the Witches were introduced in the same book, by the same guy who looks exactly the way you'd guess he looks.
And I say that as someone who thinks the Hapans at least are a moderately cool idea.

>>98691932
I assumed you were blaming their lore on current-year feminist writing or whatever, when they predate that by several decades.

>>98692080
Nah, I'm blaming the lore on 90s feminist writing.
I mean shit, that's why I said a group of lightside users. The Witches of Dathomir weren't always just the Nightsisters.
They had a lightside faction who Luke worked with in legends.
Who kept their male members as sex chattel.

>>98692109
Not sure how much of that is feminist writing and how much the author's magical realm: "oh no, I've been taken as a slave by sexy space-witches and forced to have sex with hot women all day, how terrible..."

>>98692109
Pretty sure as soon as Luke starts ignoring the sex chattel part in the book, the Witches start getting very hot under the collar for that Skywalker's sky walker if you take my meaning, for the defiance.

It's pure magical realm.

File: Klina Sector and Surround(...).png (39 KB, 625x440)

39 KB PNG

>>98686887
A quick Google search will turn up a bunch, some of them quite snazzy-looking like https://star-map.app/
But there was one I used some years back for my campaign that had a much simpler look to it, but it had more hyperlanes, sector borders, and star systems than the others I've seen. I still have screenshots from it that I used in my games, but can't seem to find the site again

>>98692331
Given the strength of Luke's bloodline, it would be incredibly irresponsible to go around fucking without a condom. Could you imagine the turmoil Luke would cause if he impregnated an entire Dathomir Witch coven? They could unironically take over the galaxy with when his kids come of age.

File: 98C26DA2-F17A-4D7F-BAAF-B(...).jpg (501 KB, 3257x3257)

501 KB JPG

>>98691743
Sex slaves have been part of the setting for a long time anon

>>98691743
Pointing out that you're a soulless retarded parody of humanity isn't defensive, anon, it's simply stating observable fact. Star Was is fantasy, it has fantasy stuff in it like magic and Cthulu monsters and other weird shit, it always has, and it was always cool. You're entitled to disagree, and everyone else is entitled to laugh at you and then ignore your dumbass opinions.

>>98694885
>Umm, well ashually it's science fantasy, therefore anything whisch is fantasy can fit in it
Yeah, because nothing can possibly be unique or have its own specific details or setting specifics.

Dark Sun and Lord of the Rings? Basically the same setting.
Retard

File: 1281429670770.png (147 KB, 1920x1080)

147 KB PNG

Interesting thought which pans out of the conversation in the last thread.

Kreia is a fantastic Sith villain.
Not because she's right, but because she actually manages to manipulate the player and is more subtle in her actions, rather than being an absolute 'Grug smash with dark side power' like 99% of Sith.
If more Sith were closer to Kreia rather than Darth Babyeater they'd be far more interesting as a faction.

>>98679732
Currently on Cycle Thirty-Something of my playthrough.

I'm not going to furiously masturbate to Fathom, but I bet someone will.

>>98683428
>Homebrew Sev'rance for Legion
Is this a mod I can download on the Tabletop Simulator workshop?

>>98688599
Pretty sure I heard it started as an in-joke on /his/

I don't know what's up with the Confederates, but the pregnant part is probably because in the uncensored version of her diary Anne talks about her developing body. A lot, even. And one of those entries mentions that she's really looking forward to being pregnant some day.

>>98690513
Visual evolution making them look more like Stormtroopers. Another thing is that for Episode III they brought in actual military types to perform the motion capture for the clones, so maybe they requested something closer to the size they were used to.

>>98692896
"Sex between those not married, is immoral." — Boba Fett

Must be Jodo Kast.

>>98690513
Around the same time as the Phase II armor became more commonplace. You will notice how few long-range engagements occur in a show like TCW. Presumably, as the Republic refined its military over the war, a push was made to standardize on the DC-15A for the same reasons the US military standardized on the M-4: a shorter, handier weapon would be just as good in most cases, if not a little better since it's easier to bring it to bear on the enemy.

>>98690880
http://www.swgalaxymap.com/

just want them to announce more animated projects already

we can't just be expecting shadow lord S2 and thats it

>>98698758
Do we really need more lame 3d?

File: i-just-think-theyre-neat-(...).jpg (21 KB, 500x332)

21 KB JPG

>>98699081

>>98699081
faggot

>>98698758
They announced they're prioritizing animated series over live action finally

File: vwingpilot.png (413 KB, 670x509)

413 KB PNG

>>98696728
We need more pseudo-stormtrooper clone designs. There were so many cool clone designs like the closed-helmet Phase II pilot that were forgotten when media made all clones heckin' lovable scamps who are definitely all going to defect the Empire or die out.
BRING BACK IMPERIAL CLONES FAGGOTS

>>98701072
neck yourself travissfag

File: HFP80fgbIAAHK9q.jpg (132 KB, 1212x685)

132 KB JPG

I don't really like darth maul

only bit I like is that he's a pathetic failure who's always the source of his own problems and doesn't realise it

>>98701728
That's the point of his character
He has potential to be a very successful person but even when he gets more introspective he doesn't have the awareness to realize he's self-defeating

>>98701869
>He has potential to be a very successful person
Orly?

>>98701875
>sith lord at the head of a criminal empire
yeah really

File: lxh24gm2qda11-2934186250.jpg (50 KB, 937x900)

50 KB JPG

What's the earliest point Sheev's plan could go off the rails and he's found out?

Also who would actually uncover the scheme? The Jedi? Republic Intelligence?

>>98701728
>>98701869
This. I was super pissed when he got brought back in TCW. Even as a middle schooler I could smell the memberberry bullshit. But the way he has been used over time I have thoroughly enjoyed. They have an excellent VA for him, whose acting gives the character gravitas to make him sound like he's a deep, thoughtful, and clever Sith, when he's actually a self-defeating psued whose only reason to exist is trying to settle scores with those he believes have wronged him. The best part is that he frequently ends up hoist by his own petard in his obsessive quests. And that it ulimately culminates in him getting BTFO by Kenobi, again, in a Kurosawa-esque single blow is the perfect way to complete the character.

>>98702145
Would it be better if he had been the villain of Lucas’s ST?
They replaced him with Snoke.

>>98701376
Get back in the bacta tank, anon. (You)'re unwell.

>>98701877
>head of a criminal empire
Now lety's be honest. The whole Maul running criminal empire always been just a scarce background for his endless revenge plots

>>98702145
Missed board /co/?

>>98702497
fuck off wannabe janny

>>98699097
Cartoons are lame, simply because except of anime they are overwatched too closely by current Lucasfilm.

>>98701376
Retard, tf are you on? Traviss was the first one to humanize the clones before Filoni and make it so her clones defected the Empire

>>98701728
He was brought back purely because of Lucas' gay retarded ideas for his pipe dream ST
There wasn't ever really any value to him after TPM, everything the EU did with him pre-TPM is way better than crime lord Maul, although admittedly crime lord Maul is nowhere near as much a downfall as Disney Boba
>>98702145
>implying Disney won't reveal he survived the duel and he won't appear in Ahsoka
kek anon, you really don't know Filoni do you

>>98702957
With Traviss it was only the ARCs and commandos, who were given more independence to be able to operate outside the chain of command and personally trained by people hand-picked by Jango Fett, so they ended up with more developed personalities and ability to make their own judgements, while the average clone troopers were engineered to blindly follow orders and didn't have much of a personality.

>>98703008
1. Even if this was true, it'd still be mega fucking gay. ARCs and RCs were created before Traviss and their original portrayals were still loyal to the system or loyal to specific people, for instance ARCs were extremely loyal to Jango and the Republic and there wasn't a shred of "loving Mandalorian culture" until the Guide to the GAR, Insider 84. Same with RCs, Delta did what the Republic asked of them instead of the gay shit Traviss retconned them and her OC Omega RCs to do. Sure, they had personalities, but in her RC books other than the literal Gary Stu Null ARCs you have a bunch of Alpha ARCs and RCs just freely desert the army and when Omega is forced to stay they fucking HATE the Empire. It's the gayest retcons possible, especially compared to other writers
2. But it isn't true. You have the Clone Commanders who now obey Order 66 with malice because "the Jedi were heckin' evil o algo". It was her lore iirc that established bullshit like "the clones hated stormtroopers because they were massive chumps rather than the chad muscular Mandalorian clones" and iirc there were hints of clones defecting. It isn't as downright pathetic as it but Order 66 and Imperial Commando may as well be proto-Bad Batch with some of the shit they imply and pull.
Sure, Traviss wasn't as dramatically retconning basic lore as Filoni and Lucas during TCW completely changing literally everything stated by the films and set up previously just so they could have retarded characters like Rex, but she began it. Traviss was controversial for a reason (specifically in the Clone Wars era. I know she's controversial for MULTIPLE reasons related to her Mandowank including the whole post-NJO shit with Jaina and Boba)

File: HSHQucTWgAIIemB.jpg (16 KB, 353x357)

16 KB JPG

so whats the whole deal with george lucas and the EU?

i've seen some things say he's never considered it "his" canon, and other things saying he's a fan of things such as the comics, which is why he takes characters and ideas from them (e.g republic comics for TCW) but ends up doing his own thing with that idea or character

I get he's contradictory a lot of the time, but is it a case of "it's not my canon, but i'll use a good idea when I see it" this is usually just hot alien women like aayla and ventress, who he says they're interesting "visually"

>>98703391
Lucas doesn't even give a shit about his own films dude, he changes shit in them constantly. See reviving Maul, claiming Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to save Vader, claiming the Prequel Jedi were always right and it's all Anakin's fault, retconning the clones, changing his mind on if the clones became the OT stormtroopers, etc.
He generally didn't care much for the EU but he did participate in it a bunch, much more than people expected. There's a good Plebbit historian called xezene who has a bunch of infographs on the topic. The reality is Lucas is a fickle man who changes his mind on the daily yet people expect for him to be a mastermind who had everything from TCW and later claims planned out since 1979.

>>98703399
Oh yeah also forgot to mention the SEs, the biggest example of Lucas' fickleness
Like changing random shit that affected nobody. Why do we need shots of Vader going up to the Executor in ESB? Why do we need shots of Coruscant celebrating the Endor victory? Why change Boba Fett's voice?

>>98703391
>get he's contradictory a lot of the time, but is it a case of "it's not my canon, but i'll use a good idea when I see it"
That seems to be it. He let people do their own thing with the EU as long as it still fit within the bounds of his vision of the universe (which generally meant not covering stuff he intended to cover later, like the Clone Wars), but he didn't feel the need to follow the "canon" established by EU writers. If there was an idea or character that he liked he might use it, but if the story he wanted to tell happened to contradict something in some comic or novel he didn't care.

>>98702142
The moment Obi-Wan reaches Kamino, but for some reason nobody bothers to investigate how a Sifo-Dyas was able to bankroll a project of such magnitude. Kaminoans most likely demanded payment in advance plus some collateral

>>98703391
He basically said "There's my universe which is the films, then the universe that prints money which happens to show similarities to it, I'm not complaining mind you"

Speaking of the EU, a thought from a youtube comment - It's interesting that most really good Star Wars content comes from people with a real interest in things outside of Star Wars.

Not Traviss-esq 'Boy I sure do love warrior cults, I wish big strong soldiers with no morals would gangbang me into submission, woo, oorah, Marines at ram ranch and shit' but an interest in say, war, politics, the mechanics of the mundane side of things.

It always helps ground the setting and tends to give it depth. It's one of the big beefs people have that they can't quite put their finger on with Filoni, despite being in charge of the Clone Wars, he doesn't seem to be a student of war, or even particularly interested in it.
Which is why you get shit like the Republic doing war crimes willy nilly, because he thinks rules of engagement is a sit com about an autistic wedding planner.

>>98703008
>average clone troopers were engineered to blindly follow orders and didn't have much of a personality.
Neither were TCW clones.

>>98703482
>Not Traviss-esq 'Boy I sure do love warrior cults, I wish big strong soldiers with no morals would gangbang me into submission, woo, oorah, Marines at ram ranch and shit' but an interest in say, war, politics, the mechanics of the mundane side of things.
Hate to break it for you but George also copied warrior cults, mostly from other fictional settings.

>>98703521
>George also copied warrior cults, mostly from other fictional settings.
Yes, and?
I'm saying George had an interest in them, rather than furiously masturbating to them and that there's a difference between the two.

Traviss isn't interested in warrior cults or cultures as a historic thing or in the context of a greater setting/how they'd fit in the Star Wars universe which would add to/give depth to the setting.
She's interested in the fantasy of being passed around a barracks while someone puts a boot on the back of her head (As proven by the fact she carries this exact same fetish into every series she writes).

It's the difference between bringing your own twist on something/knowledge of a particular aspect of life to your writing vs making the entire setting about your special interest.

>>98703543
>Traviss isn't interested in warrior cults or cultures as a historic thing or in the context of a greater setting/how they'd fit in the Star Wars universe which would add to/give depth to the setting.
Neither did George when he decided to give Mandalorians Trials system of Battletech Clans..
>vs making the entire setting about your special interest.
Something something about Fiery Redhead forceusers and someone's reaction.

>>98703039
>It was her lore iirc that established bullshit like "the clones hated stormtroopers because they were massive chumps rather than the chad muscular Mandalorian clones"
Wasn't there one-shot comics about clone troopers, who reacted with disgust of how poorly stormies were performing on the battlefield, due to the poor discipline?

>>98703521
>Neither were TCW clones.
No? TCW clones were ALL independent. Slick? Cut Lawquaine?
>>98704091
You mean that one Empire story about the abandoned clone who gets saved by the Rebels? Eh, wasn't Traviss already writing Mando shit by then? I think the idea that clones weren't stormtroopers was inconsistent between writers cause 2002 WotC called the ANH Stormies all clones.

>>98704091
>"the clones hated stormtroopers because they were massive chumps rather than the chad muscular Mandalorian clones"
this pops up in Rebels and Bad batch as well so it's not just of Traviss' doing

>>98704121
I wasn't defending Filoni retard. Traviss and Filoni are both sides of the same coin, autistic faggots who miss the entire point of the clones
The only difference is that Traviss was slightly more modest and obsessed with Mandalorians and Filoni went over the top and is obsessed with his gay OC characters
That's it

>>98704130
I wasn't assuming you were defending Filoni. I was just stating further examples of kaminoan Fett clones thinking ill of spaarti clones and/or regular Joe Shmoe recruit as inferior due to what kaminoan Fett clones considered poor training and/or discipline

>>98704172
Which is bullshit because Stormtrooper recruits had already been established by old EU media to be elite troops trained in extremely grueling conditions and who were quite effective
Media written by philistine clueless writers who bought into the "muh Stormtroopers can't aim" meme with for all of SW history has almost always been a pathetic leftist "dunk" at "le notsees" rather than any genuine criticism.

File: GGGl9FRWkAARiBr.jpeg.jpg (386 KB, 1920x804)

386 KB JPG

>>98703482
>It's one of the big beefs people have that they can't quite put their finger on with Filoni, despite being in charge of the Clone Wars, he doesn't seem to be a student of war, or even particularly interested in it.
fuck maybe thats truly it (granted, lucas was in charge of TCW not filoni) but it can be extended to filonis other shows, and can also line up with him not really being interested in other peoples works which is why he ignores them a lot of the time

maybe that's why I resonate with TBB more, sure it has its flaws but because the lead writer was an ex-navy officer, theres the element of military themes in the show which work really well when they focus on it in the crosshair episodes

>>98704195
I can see your point, though from a certain point of view one could say the original kaminoan clones were trained to a higher level than even ANH-era stromtroopers. I'm gonna lean on Traviss as a primary source for a bit, though iirc there are comic arcs (one of the "invasion of Kamino" ones if memory serves) that corroborate my claim.
The point of view i put forward is that the kaminoan clones were genetically modified to be better a regular soldier and then ingrained/indoctrinated to believe that they WERE better than regulars as a way to make better troopers that had a strict purpose in life and would be effective troopers from an early age.
IIRC one of the gripes of kaminoan clones had with spaarti clones were their accelerated flash-training leaving the spaarti clones' training "sloppy" in the eyes of the kaminoan clones that had a lot more time to train and grow their practical muscle-memory instead of just the theoretical knowledge.
When it comes to regular non-clone recruits the kaminoan clones see them as amateurs due to the regular troopers training starting later in life than a kaminoan clone however early they start.
Where regular troopers win over the kaminoan clones is longevity and the ability to cascade their knowledge and skills to the next wave of recruits easier, meaning a wider pool of elite troopers instead of a narrow spearhead of excellent supersoldiers.

TL;DR: Elite stormtroopers good for growing empire, small amount of supersoldiers good for dedicated operation (e.g. Order 66)

>>98704289
I will fully admit I never liked Spaarti. I'm someone who believes for various reasons cloning ought to be mostly Kaminoan and the Thrawn Trilogy could be reworked around it. I do agree that they would most likely be dogshit.
I think my issue with Traviss is that it makes sense for ARCs and maybe some RCs and CCs to believe that, but the average clone just... wouldn't. Clones aren't thinking about how they're better than others. They don't have the independence to be that arrogant.

>the same faggot argument of old clones vs new ones
holy fucking shit fuck off you circlejerking faggots we don't need this same shitpost cycle every goddamned thread

File: 6799072.jpg (42 KB, 768x432)

42 KB JPG

>>98704256
>theres the element of military themes in the show which work really well when they focus on it in the crosshair episodes
>but because the lead writer was an ex-navy officer
Like picrelated?

>>98704119
>TCW clones were ALL independent.
Yeah this is why there literally zero differences between their personalities (talking about protagonist clones, of course)..

>>98704314
>They don't have the independence to be that arrogant.
Arrogance can always grow from the confidence/overconfidence.

>>98704955
Just because they're boring characters doesn't mean they aren't independent. It just means Filoni didn't have the balls to be edgier.
Even then, there are differences with shit like the Bad Batch or Fox.

>>98684518
Eriadu Authority dies quickly but the actual planet of Eriadu holds out against the rebels up until the Thrawn campaign at least.

>>98703482
This thread is plagued by some of the absolute worst opinions about what suits a work of fiction I've ever had the displeasure of seeing on 4chan, and even with that said, this may be the new all-time low.

File: endlessly arguing the sam(...).jpg (71 KB, 1280x720)

71 KB JPG

>>98704849
Sorry anon, but if it isn't this, it'll be re-arguing what makes a "true" Jedi or Sith, or re-arguing whether TLJ was the best or worst of the ST, or re-arguing what went wrong with the ST, or re-arguing whether chuds or trannies ruined the franchise.

File: .gif (1.6 MB, 498x281)

1.6 MB GIF

>>98705976

>>98702145
Aping Kurosawa is rather bad manners indicating lack of competence and taste.

>>98706360
a take so dogshit you wonder how the mongoloid who formed it managed to figure out typing on a keyboard

>>98702142
>What's the earliest point Sheev's plan could go off the rails and he's found out?
Two points. The assassination of Sifo-Dyas and Dooku’s revelation to Obi-Wan Kenobi. It errs more of the

When Sifo-Dyas died, the Jedi didn’t look deep enough into the so-called accident. They would probably have to discreetly send some of their own Jedi investigators if they would need to really verify if it was just a freak accident or a murder. The other point would be Dooku’s revelation to Obi-Wan when he was captured on Geonosis. Dooku basically laid out what was going on in the Republic behind the scenes, but Obi-Wan wouldn’t play ball with him. If Obi-Wan had heard his grievances, pretended to play along, or even joined him, the Clone War would have been a much contracted conflict. Republic Intelligence in general could only help so much in this sort of scenario.

>>98679589
I think the problem people have with the vong is this- they felt out of place in starwars? I dont know how to say it another way. Starwars has room for weird. We have room for unknown threats just kindo of showing up- we have a whole unknown region. But the vong were too unknown. They seemed to break all the rules the setting had for several reasons.
>no force connection, and were written to just be that (Seekot removing their racial force attunment is a retconn written in to the last books because of backlash not the original plan- and i will not be convinced otherwise.)
>Luddites in a scifi setting. The same problems people have with ewoks beating storm troopers applies. Muh garden weapon is better than lasers/lightsabers, ect.
>Super warrior culture has unbeatable tactics and strategies that completely fuck over the unprepared galaxy! forget that the setting's two major factions have been in nonstop war for the better part of a century, and were suddenly and conviently led by incompotents and pacifists.

As for the LotF, lost tribe was great, bringing it back to Jedi vs Sith was a return to classic form, and even some of the moral and ethical questions it raised were fine. But it seemed to completely forget or ignore its own canon! Daala being the first in a line of weird retcons.
>shes muh woman president
>shes a war criminal who should have been shot about a dozen times for what she did for the empire and to the rebellion
>but she helped Paelleon and fought Jacen
>she attempted to commit base delta zero against moncalamari and she tried to relaunch the galactic civil war with a deathstar prototype- TWICE

like the tribe are fine, but abeloth and trying to make the Force into what is essentially the warp from 40k was a mistake. There can be Whils in the force, and it can be sentient(ish) but force demons is retarded in a noblebright setting. Go to 40k if you want edge and dark. Mortis was a mistake.

>people are now pretending the yuuzhan vong plotline was actually good
I know everything disney's done has been dogshit but you don't need to lie like this

>>98706946
The issue with the Vong is that they are supposed to be super weird but are actually the most basic form of boring as fuck evil.

File: paply & the vong.jpg (205 KB, 1080x1049)

205 KB JPG

>Niggas really want discount dark eldar

>>98705963
>Filoni is more interested in smashing his toys together and talking about his super special OCs than Stars or Wars
>Bad Opinion
Know what, you're right, it's a bad opinion.
Because it's actually a fact, and facts aren't opinions.

>>98707563
>t-take me seriouslyyy!!!

File: Sith_Empress_by_namesjames.jpg (49 KB, 732x800)

49 KB JPG

>>98707585
>He thinks anyone respects him enough to care if they take him seriously or not, rather than just laughing at him for being a mental manlet who can't engage in normal conversation
It's remarkable, seeing how the clinically retarded interpret the actions of others.

>>98707606
that's a lot of projection from the schizophrenic milsim hard scifi faggot lmao

>>98702957
Clones refused to carry out O66 in just Rise of Darth Vader because it made no sense to them.
And Traviss is on record as never reading any Star Wars besides what she personally wrote, she just got names and dates and shit from Leland Chee and used that. She was very open about it too, including that she considered Jedi to be inherently evil and shit because they were "genetically blessed for no reason" and only HER Jedi were okay because they were different to the other Jedi, and they gave up using the Force. Of course, her OC Nulls and super clones are literally genetically engineered to be super special, so exactly how she kept those two contradictory things in her brain was never exactly clear.

>>98707649
It's so funny to watch twitter grifters suck off karen traviss' slop when baiting for engagement now that hating on filoni and TCW is the trendy safe thing to do

Jesus, he's actually so stupid that he thinks "Maybe people who are writing for Star Wars should know something about wars. Filoni and Travis know jack about shit." and "Travis is a shit writer who never even read any Star Wars content and hates Star Wars." are both defences of Travis/MilSim apologia.

Filonifags mother must've really hankered for lead paint chip n' dip when she was siring her bastard spawn.

>>98707649
OK? You DO realize I have spent quite a bit explaining I'm NOT defending Traviss and that comment was about how she sucks as much as Filoni? Both are dogshit writers
Yes, I know that Traviss ignored lore completely.
Also, Dark Lord was written after a lot of the RC series, I think after Triple Zero. Plus those were an RC squad. Luceno just took what Traviss wrote and went with it.

>>98706946
Beyond that it was that the Vong thing was an obvious pivot from traditional SW media. You had tons of classic space opera stories that were Luke and Co. beating the Empire, or slightly more experimental stories in other media.
Now here come the Vong and Star Wars is suddenly Warhammer, Chewbacca fucking dies (they wanted to kill off Luke but Lucasfilm was smart enough to tell the writers to fuck right off), the Vong conquer and terraform and destroy hundreds of iconic planets, the whole Skywalker lineage bullshit, etc. And everything after NJO was worse. It was such a pathetic attempt to appeal to 2000s-era edgelords who hated Star Wars and unsurprisingly the people defending the Vong are all Warhammer apologists who believe Star Wars should be that.
>>98707563
Filoni, on the other hand, is the complete opposite. If Star Wars media post-MMP leaned overwhelmingly into edgy bullshit with good media being hidden here and there and usually in eras based on the films (or Old Republic), Filoni is just a kid in a playground with his OCs and made Star Wars purely for literal toddlers. The fact people still think the fucking Umbara Arc is "muh kino" tells me they grew up with it when they were nine and haven't put much critical thought into it after.

>>98707868
>Beyond that it was that the Vong thing was an obvious pivot from traditional SW media
Know what, this is something I've been trying to put my finger on when it comes to the Vong for a while and I think you just helped me put it into words.
Star wars is basically an epic fantasy setting in space.
Young hero goes off into the world and fucks evil wizard empire in the ass.

The problem with the Vong is, what archetype are they? What's their parallel in a fantasy setting?
They don't really have one.
They're incongruous with the setting.
And what's worse is they're put front and centre, given free reign of the plot and undue weight given they just arrived out the blue.

A galactic level threat is something that should be ramped up into, not just appear and go 'Well we just vored a dozen worlds, look how dangerous we are lmao.'

>>98707853
Triple Zero was 2006, Rise of Vader was 2005.

>>98707853
They were normie clones anon. Just a regular contingent, nothing special.

>>98707953
My apologies. Still, Hard Contact and Omega Squad: Targets DID come out before Dark Lord.
>>98707956
Afaik you're talking about Ion Team who are a team of RCs.

>>98707883
>What's their parallel in a fantasy setting?
Eastern barbarian hordes (from another dimension). Compare the Vong to Warcraft orcs for example (the 2016 Warcraft movie hits several similar narrative beats, with orcs from another planet, Vong from another galaxy, they have weird magic/tech, there are some who are okay and others who are not, etc.).

You are all mentally ill retards and proof that Star Wars is a brain tumor. It's for 12 year olds, and you wanting it to be "serious study of war" is fucking ridiculous. Grow up, you infantile, embarrassing retards, and try consuming media appropriate for your age and subject matter. These threads have been nothing but cringe for the past months.

File: __Then_Perhaps_She_Will__(...).jpg (90 KB, 1024x1327)

90 KB JPG

>Hurrdurr sturr wors am for children
Hey retard, remember in the first movie how we saw the burnt corpses of two innocent people that happened to get in the way of the empire?
Same movie that's entire plot starts with and is driven by a group of spies attempting to get information back to rebel command.
But yeah, nah, Barney and Star Wars, hand in hand am I right?
>B-buh-buht a stormtrooper bumped his head once and that means-
Most of us are here, you Filonioid, because Star Wars is effectively a unique mix of WW2/Cold War tropes/stories combined with epic fantasy.
If you can't see the parallels between, say, the Death Star/Tarkin Doctrine and Cold War MAD, well, maybe you should go get your IQ tested, you might be entitled to some kind of benefits, it might even cover your monthly paste purchases.
I said it before and I will say it again, you cannot write a half-decent main plot Star Wars story without having some basic understanding of war (Filoni), much like you can't write a story about the Jedi if you're the kind of slope-browed grug that holds any and all spirituality in absolute contempt and worships the gun (Traviss).

More interestingly, what does it say about you that you think it's all for 12 year olds, yet here you are, in this thread, jerking yourself off over how you're smarter than everyone else.
Says more about you than it does about us, unless you're 12.
Here's your (you), don't spend it all in one place.

File: Gkj5mdiW4AAANRS.jpg (281 KB, 1684x2048)

281 KB JPG

>>98704944
is that Hesgeth? I don't know much about him other tham he seems like a dick and is losing a war

anyway
>“I’m drawn to those kinds of military stories because I was in the military,” she adds, “so I get the dynamic between NCIS agents and also this elite squad of misfits.” In our own post-9/11 world, Corbett served in the US Navy where she was one of two female officers on a ship of 400 sailors.
https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-bad-batch-jennifer-corbett-interview
yes lets just get the 2 women and 398 men jokes out the way

I'm not 40 so I don't watch NCIS so can't comment on that part, iirc she's back writing for NCIS

File: 1648432954549.jpg (160 KB, 1416x780)

160 KB JPG

>>98708010
All I can see in your post is unmitigated coping and seething, caused by your inability to grow up and move on to things suitable for your age, and instead clinging to your childhood attachments, demanding they change with you and be only for you, and anything that deviates from that causes an autistic itch in that tiny brain of yours. You have gaslit yourself into thinking Star Wars is something it's not, and you live in perpetual denial and coping.
Star Wars is for 12 year olds, as per its creator. Its for children, as per its creator. It's rated PG, as per the entire world. It's about space wizards and gay robots. You are a mentally ill freak. Get a life. And quit posting cringe DeviantArt slop. I can smell Doritos from you. You fat fuck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THKzwzieF40
That's it. The conversation's over. Definitively. Nothing you say ever matters. Anything you possibly have to say is countered by the creator of Star Wars definitively saying otherwise.
You shit up every thread with your pathetic bitching, and have been doing so for months now. If you kill yourself now, no one would miss your sorry ass. People would sigh in relief that they wouldn't have to tolerate your obnoxious existence any longer.

>A-bloo-bloo-bloo, you're being mean to me and I'm getting upset about it, stop it!
Good, I'm glad it's making you the big sad.
You deserve to be bullied, not for being clinically retarded, but for your dogshit opinions.
>You've been shitting up the thread for months
Still haven't explained why you've been here for months if it's only for 12 year olds, buddy, pal, retard

File: 1289081168918.jpg (25 KB, 320x240)

25 KB JPG

Boy, Filonifag sure is getting het up over people calling his beloved husbando a manchild who can't write for shit.
Isn't it funny how everyone else can take their favourite bits of Star Wars and go 'This product is good because it has complex themes, nuances and holds a mirror to real life', but to defend Filoni you have to resort to 'Nuh-uh, the entire thing is and always has been kiddyshit, there's nothing complex about it'.
I wonder why that could be, it's a real riddle for the ages.

>>98708073
Just because Lucas wanted his films to be enjoyable by all ages doesn't mean he also didn't include complex themes. He's the kind of author that didn't want to talk down to his audience, so the prequel trilogy in particular had some pretty complex themes about how democracy turns into dictatorship (and Lucas has said in an interview that those themes were intentional) between the lightsabers and spaceship battles.
Being made for children doesn't mean all the villains have to be bumbling retards and the writer doesn't have to care about consistently (if anything children are more likely to point out inconsistencies in the story because they take it more seriously than adults).

>>98708024
>I don't watch NCIS so can't comment on that part, iirc she's back writing for NCIS
It hasn't had as many great writing and plot arcs in the recent couple of seasons, it might finally be coming to its natural end. I have been watching it for two decades holy shit.

File: TarkinThisBickeringIsPointless.jpg (26 KB, 267x296)

26 KB JPG

>this entire thread
>pic related

File: Tiresome_SW.png (600 KB, 1198x668)

600 KB PNG

>>98708299
hey i'm just here discussing how writing differs from person to person based on how they theme their writing

e.g back to filoni, it feels like his writing is based off of referencing star wars itself (see: mcquarrie designs for basically everything in rebels) rather than referencing other media or experiences
geroge was referencing kurosawa, WW2, flash gordon etc

File: star-wars-3-1843395643.jpg (32 KB, 1200x600)

32 KB JPG

>>98708182
>He's the kind of author that didn't want to talk down to his audience
lol
>so the prequel trilogy in particular had some pretty complex themes
lmao
>Being made for children doesn't mean all the villains have to be bumbling retards
rofllmao even
>and the writer doesn't have to care about consistently
So, George Lucas?

Mentally ill nigger, lmaoooo.
Watch more movies and read something that isn't Star Wars fanfiction. It's embarrassing how fucking clueless you are.

File: dark side leia and luke.jpg (92 KB, 900x1234)

92 KB JPG

>>98708010
why not both?

>>98708383
>back to filoni, it feels like his writing is based off of referencing star wars itself (see: mcquarrie designs for basically everything in rebels) rather than referencing other media or experiences
geroge was referencing
I think that's a good way to put it. I feel Traviss and Filoni are examples of failing to write a good Star Wars story, but for opposite reasons.
Traviss clearly doesn't really care about SW, and just uses it as a vehicle for writing about her warrior society fetish. She's self-admittedly never read any SW stories, and it's clear she doesn't really "get" Star Wars (see anything she's said about the Jedi), and just takes the same warrior culture template she uses for all her writing and applies it to a pre-existing group in the SW universe.
Filoni on the other hand is a SW fan, but he's got a very shallow understanding of SW. He's more focused in copying the visuals, as seen with him bringing in designs based on the original concept art, than looking into the original design process behind the idea. Where Lucas made the original film by combining different styles of films he enjoyed (Kurosawa samurai films, old science fiction serials, WW2 movies) into one story, Filoni just makes a Star War. The end result that his stuff does look the part, but the story falls flat.

File: 1684607448260323.webm (3.9 MB, 1280x536)

3.9 MB WEBM

>Lucas wanted his films to be enjoyable by all ages
>the prequel trilogy in particular had some pretty complex themes
hahaha

>>98708465
How many works intended solely for 12 year olds discuss political corruption and how democracies transition to authoritarianism due to people willingly keeping giving the head of state more power in exchange for a feeling of security?
Yeah, the way it's handled is pretty hamfisted, but the point is to make it understandable to even children.

File: io0lpw7vyyee1.jpg (147 KB, 1290x1558)

147 KB JPG

I think the chips shouldve instead been a sleeper agent activation code

File: images.jpg (24 KB, 538x302)

24 KB JPG

>>98708505
That's what they already are. Being something physical just allows to make it tangible and reversible. Lucas said Order 66 was based on Manchurian Candidate. There are two versions: the 1962 one and the 2004 one. In the former, the programming was broken by specific imagery and words by the handler - using a deck of cards entirely composed of the Queen of Diamonds; in the 2004 remake, it was a physical bio-implant that was surgically implanted into the brain. The latter provides more dramatic value and urgency in a movie than the guy being presented a deck of cards and then having the programming broken because of that. It also adds a biological horror aspect, and works better with the Kaminoan/clone sci-fi origins.

Tell me about your SWRPG campaign, anon

>>98709663
There’s a war in the stars and it happened a long, long time ago.

>>98708505
I still have no idea why people dislike the chips
>Clones were cooler when they were biologically programmed to kill the Jedi!
What do you think biological control chips are, if not biological programming? Fucking retards man

>>98710060
Don't bother, they hate it because it came out later and will bend over backwards to convince themselves that the plotpoint wasn't contrived nonsense in the actual movie or point to a noncanon POV monologue from a video game

>>98706556
Luxury Droid My Beloved…

>>98710060
There is a pretty significant difference between bred to be the perfect soldier who always does his duty of his volition and person who was implanted with a foreign biocomputer to obey commands beyond their volition.
I’ll say that the reason the former is more interesting is because it actually makes a point. That being that a perfect soldier is not necessarily a “good” soldier and how easily good can be transformed into evil. Thematically it aligns with palpatine’s transformation of the republic into the empire.
Inhibitor chips on the other hand feel more like a cop-out to explain away TCW’s elephant in the room that its beloved clone characters eventually betray and kill its beloved jedi characters. It carries with it a rather naive, sanitized, implication that no soldier in their right mind would kill the jedi if ordered.

>>98710486
Them blindly obeying a mutilated man claiming to be the supreme chancellor and not even making an attempt to capture the generals they've fought with for years is contrived without something compelling them to do so beyond indoctrination
Palpatine leaving them with potential agency and risking them disobeying his killing stroke his order has been planning for centuries is entirely out of character too

>>98710501
Presumably whatever message they received was marked with actual codes confirming it came from the supreme chancellor’s office, and Order 66 is specifically a contingent to immediately liquidate the jedi.
If you want to get into the nitty gritty logistics you might as well ask why Palpatine would even send messages at all if Order 66 operated on an automatic trigger.

>>98710501
>Them blindly obeying a mutilated man claiming to be the supreme chancellor
Not even. "It will be done, my Lord." There are no "Lords" in the Republic political or military chain of command. Why would they all suddenly address him "my lord", every last one of them, all responding in the exact same way? If this was a legit order from the Chancellor, they would've said "Yes, sir" or "Yes, Chancellor", or "Yes, Supreme Commander", or whatever that actually indicates them following legal order of a legal supreme authority. But Lucas made it perfectly clear that it was anything but that: "It will be done, my Lord". Only people who knew Sidious was a Sith called him a "Lord". Nute Gunray, Grievous, Dooku. "Lord" was knowingly and specifically used only in relation to the Sith. Lord Maul, Lord Tyranus, Lord Vader. In the original trilogy, Imperials addressed Vader as "lord", because they knew he was a Sith, it was no secret. But you can't possibly suggest that the clones consciously knew all along that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, and all of them somehow managed to keep it a secret, surrounded by mind-reading wizards, who can sense even a slight change of emotion. This would actually be an example of terrible writing and a glaring plot-hole. So it becomes obvious that the clones were subconsciously programmed in some way, they were in some kind of trance and weren't their usual selves. I.e., Manchurian Candidate.

You'll notice that anti-chipfags *ALWAYS* ignore this crucial detail. It just never comes up in their ramblings. It's always a bunch of irrelevant cope and headcanon about "office of chancellor" and "contingency orders Traviss fanfiction" or that shitty BF2 narration. Never what was actually in the film. And what was in the film is programming, a secret directive issued by a Sith Lord that an army of sleeper agents unwittingly executes, not a conscious decision or banality of soldiers following legal but bad orders. "It will be done, my Lord".

>>98710686
the BF2 campaign was literally never canon too which is so fucking funny watching people prop it up

>>98710686
NTA but I don’t find a problem I chipped clones saying that because “yes, my lord” rolls off the tongue better.

>>98710686
It's even more blatant with Cody who just before the order gives obi-wan his lightsaber back in a shot like a bannerman showing fealty to his lord
If they were aware this order would potentially be coming he would hide that shit and obi-wan would've been none the wiser

>>98710486
Not everything is a real world analogy. Clones as presented are inheretly fictitious concept. Real life soldiers aren't grown in labs and have their genes altered and implants inserted into them to make them totally obedient. So already trying to say as if clone troopers "say" something is hollow at best. They aren't saying anything. They never had a choice to begin with by virtue of being artificially created and altered people, who were robbed of their agency and humanity since before they were born. Real life soldiers are regular people, with parents and regular upbringing, who then could become bad people and commit atrocities. Atrocities are committed after decades of propaganda, and often on "others", a group that's vilified and that the people who commit atrocities already hate and want to kill. Nothing in the movies implied that the clones hated the Jedi. Nothing implied that the Jedi were vilified. Lucas never said anything of sorts. Clones turned on a dime because they're a sci-fi concept, they're a plot device, and they turned because they were programmed to do so. To argue otherwise is absolute pretentiousness and retardation, no different from pretentious leftist analysis of seeing gay shit everywhere.

>>98710709
*unchipped

>>98710694
I find the BF2 campaign the worst interpretation of Order 66, since implying the clones knew all the time they were going to turn on the Jedi doesn't make any sense in the larger context.
I thing the mind-control chip thing is also unnecessarily contrived and exists just because TWC humanized the clones too much and so needed an excuse to make them all turn on the Jedi. I prefer it just being one of the emergency orders the GAR had, which the clones followed because they've been literally trained and bred to follow orders. Possibly with an element of Manchurian Candidate style subconsciously implanted triggers to make sure they'll obey when the time comes, but having it be a chip in their brain that takes them over (so they're not in control of their actions and therefore not to blame) and can just be removed to restore them to normal feel cheap. In the RotS novelization we do get a short bit from Cody's perspective when the order is given, and hear his thoughts. He doesn't suddenly become mind-controlled to start compulsively shooting at any Jedi, but upon receiving the order regrets having just given Obi-wan back his lightsaber, implying he's still conscious of his actions, but is just following the new order he's been given.

>>98710719
Exactly. It shows that Cody just turns on a dime, does a complete 180 on a moment's notice after giving his comrade in arms and a friend his lightsaber back, after we'd had a scene where they exchange banter, and Cody specifically saying, "Come on, when have I ever let you down?". Cody and Obi-Wan clearly cared for each other, and they trusted each other with their lives. Otherwise, that scene wouldn't have been in the movie. There was no scene where Cody looks at Kenobi with distrust, or hatred, there was no scene where Obi-Wan says, "That Cody guy, something's wrong about him, I'd better watch my back around him." No, Lucas included a scene to show that they are pals and trust each other. Coupled with the weird "It will be done, my Lord" response to kill his comrade in arms and a friend that fought besides him for three years on the spot randomly without question, Lucas shows that something's up with the clones that isn't them just ordinarily following a legal order from a legal Republic authority out of their own volition. Cody just turns out of nowhere, and all of them respond exactly the same way. Meaning they are in some way brainwashed/programmed. Meaning it's "Manchurian Candidate", and the clone troopers are unwitting programmed assassins, therefore Order 66 has never been a legal order or committed out of their own volition. Anything that divulges from that is just a straight up wrong and contradictory interpretation of events. It's fine to want to have a different story and thinking that clones doing it willingly is more compelling or whatever, but that's not what was in the movie. So let's not try to pretend here as if the anti-chipfags are defending the sanctity of George Lucas's "Revenge of the Sith" and some kind of "themes", because they clearly seem to have a different movie in their heads than the one Lucas released. Absolute schizophrenia.

>>98710813
You should actually watch Manchurian Candidate before invoking it. Either version is fine, 1962 one where the programming was done via hypnosis, or 2004 one, where it was a combination of brainwashing/hypnosis and physical brain implant. Manchurian Candidate, by definition, means that the perpetrator is unwitting, not in control of their actions, therefore blameless. The problem with "contingency orders" is that it was never in the films, and if it was ever a thing - it makes no sense for it not to be in the films. People always ask, how come Ahsoka wasn't mentioned in RotS, but if "150 legal contingency orders" were a thing, how come THAT was never mentioned, when it had immediate relevance and importance to what the Jedi were doing in the film? They were making a move on the Chancellor. How come neither Yoda nor Windu said anything like, "We have to notify the Jedi to watch their backs, remember the contingency Order 66, they can kill us on the spot without trial!" How come neither Bail Organa nor Obi-Wan knew why the clones turned on them and suddenly attacked them? How come Anakin didn't know what to do with all the Jedi spread across the Galaxy? That's because in the movies it's obvious that there's no mechanism that allows clones to legally execute Jedi on the spot. It's so dumb. There is no country on Earth that allows its military to just execute its commanding Generals on the spot without trial. There is no country on Earth that allows its military to just execute president/chancellor. No one would ever agree to that. Shitty Traviss fanfiction. You also didn't address the "my lord" issue. The problem is that every EU explanation of Order 66 is bad and completely incongruent with RotS. Disney also dropped the ball by making chips easy to remove. I hate Bad Batch for that. Tech just built shit out of scraps that detects it, it's so stupid. It should be near impossible to detect, and removal should be very risky, with a possibility of clone's death.

>>98710967
isnt the chip described as being an enlarged gland or something in the brain?

so, obviously unless you know what you're looking for you'll pass it off as normal

File: t9Cr5LZ.png (267 KB, 525x517)

267 KB PNG

I think another thing people don't bring up about the "hurr durr its a contingency order etc etc chips are lame" is the fact that in RoTS, nobody questions the order

and not "is this the moral thing to do" questioning, i'm saying that no clone goes to confirm that this order is correct, they get told the phrase and immedkately go into kill mode

even if you're FORCED to comply with orders, surely you'd ask to make sure that order is correct, given it could completely fuck up your battle plan?

>>98711126
Know what, as someone who thinks the chips are a bit much and usually argues for the 'Trained from birth and tweaked to be submissive and breedable' angle on things?
You've actually convinced me with that point, it being an outright compulsion does work better given it was meant to be something enacted immediately, at the same time, all across the galaxy, so no Jedi could warn anyone else.
And that level of action does require some level of organized compulsion, even if it's just to avoid 'Come again Sir, you want me to do what?'

I'm talked around. Good job anon, you changed someone's mind on 4chan.

>>98711107
In the original TCW episodes under George Lucas that were written by his daughter, it was described as organic and made out of cells, it was then implanted during early stages of development and grew as a part of clones' brain, planted in the prefrontal cortex. It could only ever be detected using Kaminoan equipment by undergoing an atomic brain scan. Regular brain scans didn't cut it, because it was disguised as a normal brain matter, so it had to be the most thorough scan possible using Kaminoan proprietary equipment. There was also ambiguity about the possibility of a clone dying after removing it. Did Tup die because his inhibitor chip turned into a brain tumor, or because it was removed? Was Fives lucky? It's a necessary moment of tension when you deal with a plot device like that. There has to be a drawback, stakes, a possibility that the clone may pay for his "freedom" with his life. In TCW S7, Ahsoka removed Rex's with the power of friendship and the Force after failing to detect it normally using ship's medical equipment and droids multiple times. Rex was just that fucking metal that he was not only able to resist it for a few moments, but was subconsciously able to help Ahsoka pinpoint its location after she connected to him via the Force. Still difficult, and required something extraordinary to perform, relied on characters' relationship and the setting's metaphysical magic. Then Bad Batch said fuck it, and Tech just built some random shit from scraps, and any clone could remove it on a broken Venator with shitty equipment without a hitch. Trivialized the whole thing. And it also "wears off" apparently, whatever.

>>98708073
NTA but if Star Wars is for 12 year olds then why are you even here? Honestly, you're the one shitting up the thread crying about how it's for 12 year olds when everyone else is trying to actually discuss things.

>>98711325
You can accept reality and Star Wars for what it is. It's a PG property for 12 year olds. It is silly to expect Star Wars to portray graphic rape scenes or realistic and accurate military logistics, for example, because such things are outside of its scope, intent and purpose, and always have been. Lucas has never done that and never intended to do it. Asking for such things in Star Wars is being a retard. If you want to see these things maybe you should consume something else. That's not what Star Wars is for.
>everyone else is trying to actually discuss things.
No such thing happened. It was the same one retard sperging out about the same one thing in every single thread, reheating the same argument over and over and over again, while failing to understand what Star Wars is about, what it's aiming at, and generally not knowing what the fuck he's talking about, because he's an inbred retard.

>>98711413
>Lucas
Who?

>>98711413
Put a trip on so it's easier to filter your dumb posts. You're retarded, you have no argument, and you're not worth engaging any further.

>>98711584
NTA
Stay on twitter if you need to filter people you disagree you thinskinned faggot

>>98711615
There's disagreeing, and then there's literally not having an argument. He has never addressed why he's even in this thread for a media made for 12 year olds. If he's so defensive about it being for 12 year olds, then why is he even here? Why does he care so much about a piece of media made for 12 year olds?

It's not being thin-skinned to not want to deal with retards. It just saves me time not having to sort through his retarded shit he's spewing when he won't even answer these simple questions. Again, he's not worth engaging.

>>98711876
NTA
I'd rather not have your retarded daily spergouts over what flavour of clone is better so I'm siding with the other guy

NTA
But when I see NTA this much I begin to suspect some may in fact be THAT Anon.

>>98711888
I'm not even the anons discussing clones, hell I rarely even post at all, just sick of the retard saying stop talking about what I don't want you to talk about.

During the Jedi Purge, what do the surviving Jedi need in order to hide their presence with the Force from detection by the Empire?

The question is aimed at solutions other than cutting oneself away from the Force.

Did Palpatine explicitly use some Force stealth ability to hide from the Force sensitive Jedi he often interacted with before becoming emperor? I seem to have found conflicting responses with canon and EU and even inside canon it seems vague.

What do you think is gonna happen to Cal Kestis after his third and final game
It would make a lot of sense for him to die at the end. He's a Jedi not named Luke Skywalker after all.
He's a very popular character though. I doubt Disney want to kill off a potential money maker. Hell, look how much they've invested in shitty BD animatronics for the parks. Gotta make that money back somehow.
I guess the question is how do you keep him alive, away from the OT plot, and interesting enough for side content? Could he give up on being a Jedi and become a Nightsister like Merrin? Could he become an inquisitor?

>>98712554
Force Stealth is probably what Palpatine was using to hide from the Jedi Order right under their noses. On the other hand, Vader trying to find some stray weakling padawan in the whole galaxy is like a needle in a hay stack. Unless you're close by or really obvious he's not gonna be able to pick you up. That probably helps give him some horror monster vibes as well. Most Jedi wouldn't have known about Force Stealth, so they'd think Vader will always just KNOW where they are.

>>98713004
He's 100% gonna go dark side and die at the end and be replaced by bodes daughter a la jack in rdr1

>>98712554
>Did Palpatine explicitly use some Force stealth ability to hide from the Force sensitive Jedi he often interacted with before becoming emperor?
He was very, very good at hiding it. The thing with the Force is, trained or not, it's like a sixth sense. Untrained you will do things unconsciously, and if you are strong, and someone is watching or near, they will feel the Force in you - Vader in the Death Star run, for example. In a way, the Force itself reveals you, it wants to let you and others connect because connections and life is how the Force grows.

But if you are trained, it's also far, far harder to turn it off. Imagine living your life with hearing, and then trying to NOT hear. Constantly, and perfectly. It's learning how to turn off the thing that is constantly with you, supporting you. When Legends Luke is on Myrkr, and has his Force link flatlined, it is the absolute first thing he notices, immediately. It's like he's lost a limb. When he leaves the effect and regains the connection, he describes it as something like the sun coming up, or a door bursting open. It's instant and immediate, he knows in a heartbeat that the Force is there or not.

Palpatine is incredibly, exceptionally good at doing absolutely NOTHING with the Force when he is around others, almost complete disconnection. Even then, though, there were brief times when others could sense something from him in the Force. Obi-wan does it a few times, for example, once stated in TPM and occasionally in Legends, he just doesn't quite know what he is sensing, just that he is sensing it and the Force is "ringing a bell in his brain to pay attention" - so he leaves it at simply never trusting Palpatine.

Towards the end of the clone wars, the dark side was actively starting to surround Palpatine, so even he couldn't hide it perfectly. But the Jedi were also being blunted in their ability to hear the Force by that point as well, so they didn't quite register what was happening.

>>98712554
In some sources Palpatine was consciously hiding his presence in the Force by using some Sith technique (there's a scene in one of the novels where his concentration momentarily breaks when being attacked, and Obi-Wan, who was also present at the scene, can feel a sudden presence of the Dark Side for a split second). Other sources state that he had enacted a ritual to cloud the Jedis' ability to sense things through the Force, dulling their ability to predict the future and to sense his presence. Both can easily be true at the same time, since even with the Dark Side clouding their ability to see the future we still see the Jedi using precognition in the films. So they likely would still have been able to pick up on Palpatine being a Sith while in the same room as him if he wasn't actively hiding his true nature.

>>98710719
In the RotS novel, Cody gives a sigh of almost annoyance when the order comes in, and actually says "couldn't it have happened before I gave him the lightsaber back?" In this weird long suffering tone too. Definitely not brain fogged, he knew exactly what he was doing, it was simply as if a personality switch was flipped.

Kind of like Babylon 5 with how the Psi Corp reprogrammed people telepathically.

File: it begins.jpg (1.76 MB, 2995x2199)

1.76 MB JPG

Second game of armada ever. We'd kept our fleets secret until setup so I had expected lots of squadrons while my opponent expected more big ships.

File: turn 2 begins.jpg (2.05 MB, 2999x2434)

2.05 MB JPG

>>98713386
We'd come up with out own obj that whoever has the most points worth of stuff within distance 1 of the space station wins at the end of turn 6. He was very obsessed with getting the MC30 to the rear of my SD1 but luckily I'd got the upgrade for the interdictor to put a grav well covering his whole right deploy area. He was just getting to speed 1 now.
I also had 4 interceptors and saber squadron waiting to deploy from my SD1.

>>98708490
Silly anon, we all know that every story for 12 years olds starts with negotiations around trade disputes, which are secretly being used as a distraction from the villains true plan.
This retard unfortunately seems to think unless you drop rape and hyperviolence into your setting that means it's default kiddyshit rather than just being universal/for everyone.

I look forward to hearing his thesis on the deep meaning of Dokuro-Chan and Bible Black, which are adult shows and therefore you're allowed to talk about their complexities and nuances.
'cause you know, boobs and murder.

File: hidalgo.png (353 KB, 507x404)

353 KB PNG

>>98708552
Lucas changed his mind. Picrel is from Insider 83, August 8th 2005, by Hidalgo who had DIRECT contact with literally everyone at Lucasfilm and ILM.
>Order 66 is not some pre-programmed genetic trigger. It's not some Manchurian Candidate brainwash button. It's rather just one of a catalog of orders that clone commanders and their soldiers are trained since birth to follow without question. It identifies their generals, the Jedi Knights, as traitors to the ideal to be dealt with accordingly.
>>98710501
You're a retard. CLONES AREN'T NORMAL PEOPLE. It goes beyond indoctrination, their neurons are modified to be far more malleable to teach them to blindly obey the Republic. They're genetically modified for loyalty. TCWfags still treat clones like they're fucking conscripts when they aren't.
>>98710686
>surrounded by mind-reading wizards, who can sense even a slight change of emotion
TCWfag cope from retards who don't know how the Jedi work.
First of all, we don't know if Chancellors are called Lord, if Palpatine made that be, if Order 66 indicates the change in name.
Second, Jedi CANNOT read minds. And Force sense isn't Spidey sense, it isn't automatic, Jedis need to put their minds in focus and clearly feel things around them. Most Jedi were busy fighting or doing other shit which is why they didn't notice the betrayal. Yoda who is the second strongest Jedi in potential felt Order 66 due to his battle meditation, noticed the clones and survived. SImple as. Also it's hilarious how you cope with TCW which literally retcons the Prequels so much people claim they "fix" them, fucking dumbass.
>>98710694
Except it was and was made at the same time as the film with collaboration between studios. It's even referenced in the RotS VD.
>cont

>>98710719
>>98710837
Quoting the Revenge of the Sith novelization:
>Cody was a clone. He would execute the order faithfully, without hesitation or regret. But he was also human enough to mutter glumly, "Would it have been too much to ask for the order to have come through before I gave him back the bloody lightsaber. . . ?"
Line edited by Lucas himself btw. Totally brainwashed Manchurian Candidate style.
Even if you believe clones were expecting the Order (which ISN'T consistent, the 501st in Battlefront II were because pre-TCW the 501st was literally Palpatine's Special Ops legion since the lore hadn't become retarded enough to give legions to specific Jedi and especially Anakin who wasn't mature enough at any point to deserve it), Cody didn't know WHEN it would come.
>>98710813
Again, Battlefront II doesn't imply all the clones knew. It implies the 501st knew because they were always going to do Operation Knightfall and were Palpatine's troopers.
>>98711126
It's being transmitted by Palpatine from what is presumably a safe transmission with a specific code verifying it's him. It's a Contingency Order he very clearly states. There isn't any need to assure the Order.
And yes, it fucks up some battles. The point of the Order, something you'd be aware of if you read the Traviss novels or even earlier media if you hate her guts, is that the Jedi have betrayed the Chancellor and require to be eliminated NOW for security reasons.
>>98712554
Depends on the source. Some sources state he hid it. Others state iirc the Jedi DID feel something from him but at least at the start of the war it was light. Others say by the end they felt darkness but assumed he was being manipulated by the true Sith or the war was damaging his resolve or whatever.

>>98713765
Furthermore, to add to the "Jedi can read minds so they would feel it!1!" retardation:
Most clones didn't feel anything while doing the order which is why Jedi didn't feel it. The 501st feeling bad is again an anomaly, likely because they were born more independent for missions for Sidious. Most clones were like Cody, slightly scorned about the inconvenience but they had zero loyalty to the Jedi. Hence most Jedi didn't feel anything.

>>98706573
>When Sifo-Dyas died, the Jedi didn’t look deep enough into the so-called accident. They would probably have to discreetly send some of their own Jedi investigators if they would need to really verify if it was just a freak accident or a murder.

Okay thank you, now I have the hook for my campaign.

>>98709663
I just finished a SWRPG game (the genesys one) with a bunch of friends who are new to TTRPGs outside of D&D. We had a lot of fun, and did a KOTOR 2 'oops all jedi' style campaign where everyone found out they had magic powers and choose to start becoming Jedi when they met a master on Geonosis.

more than a year of game, several dinners and hours spent around my living room table with little miniatures i 3d printed or got from Imperial Assault and painted myself, space battles where I got to use my Armada and XWing miniatures, cinematic moments with the John Williams score- and 300 pages of write up, my own often rambling storytelling laid to text from our notes.

They started at Yavin the day after the Deathstar blew up, and ended up on Hoth about a month before the battle. They went from odd jobs to Rebellion saving do-or-die missions. They met named characters and galaxy spanning organizations- cut deals with hutts and ran from Imperials, they dogfight with TIEs and even ran some spice. They met wookiees and trandoshans and sullustans and a million of the little species in a galaxy I let them run loose in. They even brushed up against Darth Vader at the end, and lost more than a hand doing it. But the most important part was that after we finally finished the last session- we had dinner and just talked about the game. And they all said they loved it and their characters even though I never let them really meet any of the movie characters, never let them touch the plot of the movies rather only sitting in more of a Rosencratz and Gildenstern position where they could see it all from the outside.

File: turn 3.jpg (1.9 MB, 2992x2439)

1.9 MB JPG

>>98713404
During turn 3 the SD and MC80 began their opening salvos, nothing much was inflicted. The CR90 unloaded on the interdictor and brought its hull down to 6. Woeful shooting from the interdictor didn't do much in return. The ties engaged rebels everywhere they could. Finally the MC30 continued it's side crawl around the board.

File: turn 4 begins.jpg (1.62 MB, 2999x2541)

1.62 MB JPG

>>98714153
The neb crashed into its own MC80 during turn 4. The CR90 was able to score a double hull attack on the interdictor and bring it down to 2 hull and then fly right between the two imperial ships. In return the Interdictor got a double hull attack which stripped all shields off the CR90. The MC80 finished off the interdictor and in return the SD brought down the CR90.

>>98711134
>>98711126
Palpatine calls the clone commanders personally, he even addresses Cody BY NAME suggesting he's literally doing it one at a time. Why not make one general broadcast?

Because he's using powerful Force suggestion over the call to make sure they don't ask questions about it.

>>98714680
>suggesting he's literally doing it one at a time
Palpatine looking at a list of all the clone commanders and being exhausted is a funny visual.

>>98713787
Battlefront 2 was literally never canon, larper
Can safely throw away all three of your seething posts since you don't know what the fuck you're talking about travissfag

>>98714946
>Battlefront 2 was literally never canon, larper
NTA

The will of the people has made it canon. If "authority" is all that matters for what's really true to the story, if we have to just accept whatever we're given, then we all ought to be licking Rey Skywalker's bean.

And whatever you think of Daisy Ridley, I do not find those terms acceptable.

>>98714928
>Hmm, let's start, Adam Abrahams: Clone Commander. Execute Order 66
>Andrew Anderson: Clone Commander. Execute Order 66
>Amundi Avak: Clone Commander. Execute Order 66...

>>98715001
The will of the majority is pro-chip no matter how much you seethe thoughbeit
Bf2's campaign has always been overrated as fuck

File: shane-molina-commander-gr(...).jpg (2.51 MB, 1925x2975)

2.51 MB JPG

>>98714680
He might have contacted Cody first to make sure they got Obi-Wan (lol, lmao). Probably should have called Gree first but there you go.

>>98715001
>The will of the people has made it canon.
Nah, it sucks storywise lmao

>>98710486
>erm, it is bad because they aren't biologically programmed to kill jedi, but instead they are biologically programmed to kill jedi

>>98716372
don't reply to infantile antichipfags during their daily tantrums

You know, reading about the Alsakan Conflicts, is it just me or does literally all the bullshit in the galaxy come down to Coruscant having the mentality of California with the power of Washington.
>We're the only important planet in the galaxy and if anyone isn't within our visual range or willing to kow-tow to us, well fucks to them, we've got the nukes

>>98716416
First among equals!

>>98716384
Yeah sure, the guys who think manchurian candidate meatdroids who kill and obey because they were bred for it is cooler than Heckin Goodboi Clonerinos being FORCED to kill their Jedi best bros by a brainchip but don't worry all the cool ones manage to get it removed and start a Clone Resistance because they were ALWAYS real boys! are the infantile ones.

Bud you literally prefer the version that was cooked up for a children's cartoon, so that the Clones would be absolved of any possible shred of moral responsibility so that Little Timmy's favourite armour paintjob, haircut, and dumb nickname...sorry, totally unique individual Trooper would always be a Good Guy.

File: lando shows han someone w(...).jpg (22 KB, 370x300)

22 KB JPG

>>98717071

>>98717071
aww somebody's throwing a stinky

>filoni wanted alpha-17 in TCW but george insisted on making a new clone character
another L for antifilonifagss

>>98717071
I mean, no matter HOW you cut it, 99% of the Clone Troopers were turbofucked
>those who weren't killed ended up broken
>even if they ended the war completely healthy, age at twice the normal rate of ordinary humans
>almost entirely erased as a memory before the New Republic
>closest ethnic group, Mandalorians, suffer attempted genocide
>used for the Early Empire meat grinder if not just straight up abandoned
>billions died for a soulless autocracy run by a dark sorcerer (the worst of both)
>Empire is comically evil to a completely ridiculous degree
>becomes exactly the structure the Separatists accused the Republic of being, turbocharged
and it gets worse somehow
>Alliance thankfully manages to win because of fate and a series of catastrophic decisions made by ideologues
>war continues
>the restored Jedi Order is nigh on useless and actually ends up being counterproductive
>the New Republic is a similarly incompetent bumblefuck to its originator state
>the New Order manages to get a superweapon online with fucking nobody seeing it coming despite the thing being made out of a goddamn planet
>the most logical part of all of this, that Stormtrooper brainwashing is broken as shit, barely seems to be touched on
>Sidious somehow (?!?) manages to summon an entirely new army of cultists out of what seems like thin air
>said faction is ...also genocided with barely a thought spared to anyone who died in this
Star Wars lore is 40K levels of grimderp at times: It gets more depressing the more you think about it and the most logical conclusion to the century following the start of the Separatist Crisis is essentially a series of warlords securing what territories they can because centralized galactic government clearly doesn't fucking work.

The clones were clearly intended to mirror the battle droids. They're both large armies of carbon copies with no individuality, a clear commentary on the military.

File: Apu achieves enlightenment.jpg (138 KB, 1125x1108)

138 KB JPG

>canon
>non-canon
Star Wars canon matters not for me outside the films anymore. All is just a marketing ploy to get me to buy merchandise. If its cool and I like it, it is canon to me. If it is cool but non-canon, it is canon to me.

File: IMG_0844.jpg (131 KB, 1280x720)

131 KB JPG

>>98717342
>is essentially a series of warlords securing what territories they can because centralized galactic government clearly doesn't fucking work
The Bootana Hutta will rise eternal.

>>98717342
The reason it didn't work is because the people trying to rebuild it after the Empire fell put in almost literally the late-stage, inefficient, corrupt mess that the Republic had devolved into, AND removed their military, except this time they were without a Jedi Order to try and keep the train on the rails. Mon Mothma and her compatriots were a product of the system that created them, and they did possibly irreparable damage to the notion of the Republic.

>>98714192
Sovl